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Old October 19, 2018, 18:42   #1
Slaughter
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Scar 17 review: Stinko?

Been shopping around. This review kinda got me re-thinking my next long-gun purchase. Curious about the FTF, FTE problems. A lot of the other complaints are petty shit but the frequency of malfunctions IS a bother. I don't recall anybody here saying they had that kind of trouble.

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Old October 19, 2018, 18:59   #2
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Already a thread on this. I think they are full of shit it is a poor review. Yeah, lets take a $2800 rifle, a $2000+ scope, and run the crappiest steel-cased Russian ammo we can find through it! (4:53 steel case is visible). They also need to learn that extraction and ejection are not the same thing. Correct terminology matters. And double feed - meh, if you have failure to extract on cheap shit Russian ammo, then it is not a double feed when the carrier comes back forward.

I also note around 4:53, that what they appear to be calling a failure to eject, the round in the chamber has not been fired - so the next round is not "double feeding". I expect what happened is they had failure to chamber on the cheap shit Russian steel cased ammo, and the extractor had not grabbed the rim yet. Then they racked the action, creating the "malfunction" they complain about. In a non-positive feed chambering, the bolt has to be all the way forward before you can extract. (Just like on any push-feed beltfed - SAW, M240, M60; and not like a pull feed beltfed PKM, 1919, M2, etc)

Now at 4:56 you can definitely see a failure to eject the cheap shit steel cased Russian Ammo. But we know that Russian .308 (Tula) is erratic at best.

As to the guy whining about the reciprocating charging handle - Doesn't seem to bother anyone firing a Million M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, AK 47s, etc. I smacked my thumb a couple times too. It is a self-correcting problem. And IIRC, SOCOM made it a requirement so that it could function as a forward assist. If you block the charging handle with your thumb on an M14 it's going to shortstroke too!

I would be interested in the Seal platoons documentation of the malfunctions, because it certainly doesn't match SOCOMs testing where the SCAR excelled, beating every other candidate in MRBF and MRBS. And while they are supposedly not wanting to carry them, the rest of the guys are pulling the scopes off their SR-25s and using the SCAR.

And then around 12 or so, he's whining about the heavy ammo while he started with how awesome it was to be a 7.62 instead of the 5.56.

Well take your pick. If you like the 7.62 because you can "reach out in Afghanistan" then don't whine that it weighs more than a 5.56. And I'd rather carry a SAW - sure. If you need a SAW. But a 5.56 squad support belt-fed machinegun is not a scoped 7.62 battle rifle.
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Last edited by gunplumber; October 19, 2018 at 19:26.
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Old October 19, 2018, 19:13   #3
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No one with any experience with SCARs takes that review seriously. There might be a few design issues that some don't like, but never heard of any reliability issues. Anyone using the cheapest junk ammo is also not looking for an honest evaluation, just controversy and views.
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Old October 19, 2018, 20:28   #4
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Old October 19, 2018, 21:48   #5
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Apologies that I missed the earlier post.

Good perspective, Mark

Thanks
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Old October 20, 2018, 07:09   #6
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I never will understand why people spend bunches of coin on really nice weapons and then buy the cheapest ammo they can find and then wonder why it doesn't run.
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Old October 20, 2018, 07:38   #7
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Well,

Im no SOCOM Trooper, but I have never had the Army in over 27 years issue steel cased ammo. Those two were in my opinion trying to induce malfunctions by using ammo that the manufacturer never recommended.

Using nonrecommended ammo can lead to poor performance.

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Old October 20, 2018, 08:03   #8
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I wonder where all the steel case supporters are? You know, the ones who show up declaring the thousands of rounds they've fired in their FAL with no problems every time someone starts up s steel case thread?

Seems suddenly with the SCAR the ammo is the problem more than the rifle? Fickle, people. Fickle.
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Old October 20, 2018, 08:52   #9
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I will be shooting this Monday with a highly funded tac. team. I will have one of my SCAR 17 there and you can bet all will want to shoot it. Kinda worried about their max. range of just under 900 yds. Have never shot mine this far so the joke might be on me...........
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Old October 20, 2018, 09:19   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
I wonder where all the steel case supporters are? You know, the ones who show up declaring the thousands of rounds they've fired in their FAL with no problems every time someone starts up s steel case thread?

Seems suddenly with the SCAR the ammo is the problem more than the rifle? Fickle, people. Fickle.
I"m one of those. But I make a distinction. Which I make loud and clear. So your pretending there is not a caveat is disingenuous at best.

4 of the 5 FAL KBs I'm aware of are Steel-cased ammo. the 5th one probably. But they are also all TULA BRAND steel cased ammo. I have fired thousands of rounds of Chinese steel cased ammo in my FALs and tens of thousands of steel cased in my full auto AKs and RPDs and PKMs.

I have also fired Tula brand ammo in other calibers and it has been universally erratic.

So I am not prepared to condemn steel cased ammo in general. I will not use Tula Brand ammo, whether it is steel cased or not.
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Old October 20, 2018, 12:47   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Well,

Im no SOCOM Trooper, but I have never had the Army in over 27 years issue steel cased ammo. Those two were in my opinion trying to induce malfunctions by using ammo that the manufacturer never recommended.

Using nonrecommended ammo can lead to poor performance.

Thorack
I am …. and as I stated before I never heard of problems with the SCAR's reliability. However, I never carried one.

I do, however, understand that there can be lemons. I carried a M-4 and a SPC, both were rock solid reliable in HOA, Iraq and Afghanistan. One of my staff had to switch out his rifle a couple times before he got one that was rock solid. Luck of the draw.

I also understand that there are myriad of factors that can make a rifle reliable under different circumstances.

The SCAR these talk about in Afghanistan may have been a lemon. As for the one in the review, doesn't appear to be a lemon, but there may be other factors at play.
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Old October 20, 2018, 13:24   #12
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Just curious. Mark do you regularly use steel cases in your fals? What do you use?
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Old October 20, 2018, 15:47   #13
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Yah know what? I only own two of them but both have been a pleasure with only the addition of an optic and the G trigger. Factory mags only, and at least feed them good milsurp of known vintage but I'm yet to have a problem in any manner.

The operator is the weakness in mine, I just can't see well enough anymore to do better than the weapon.

I really don't care what Mr. SuperSeal Bearded One thinks or does, I care about what's in my own hands and how satisfied I am with it for the intended purpose. Things that don't perform well tend to migrate out of the area pretty quickly. I'd suggest those two take a beating on the weapon and sell it to me, I'll let em' know whether they got a klinker for sure. Wink.
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Old October 20, 2018, 16:20   #14
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I own a 17 and a host of other rifles. And I shoot the ammo they were designed for, steel cased in the Chinese and COMBLOC guns, and brass cased in the NATO and US guns. Reliability was always there when I do that.

One thing I learned a long time ago when Milsurp 5.56 was scarce and not cheap. One of my AR's would not shoot steel cased ammo reliably. FTE and FTF in less than one full mag. Other AR's no problems shooting the same ammo. What I determined that the chrome lined chambers worked well with the steel cases and coatings (varnish and poly), but the unlined chambers (bare CrMo) allowed the case coatings to adhere to the chamber walls when hot. YMMV
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Old October 20, 2018, 16:51   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satans_pilgrim View Post
Just curious. Mark do you regularly use steel cases in your fals? What do you use?
No. But in the early 90s, Chinese steel case was common and cheap. Cheap needs to be put in perspective, it was cheaper than the Aussie, RG, FMP and RSA which were still under $0.20/rd.

I have never shot Russian steel case in my rifles, but I supervised the shooting of tens of thousands of rounds of cheap ammo in a carnival type "shooting adventures" a friend of mine had put together. I noted highly erratic performance from Tula, across calibers. Which is why I will not use Tula ammo. And why I am hesitant to make any declarations on ALL steel cased ammo. While there may be problems with others, I can only speak from personal experience that Tula = bad. Oh, I did have some problems with Chinese .30 carbine having erratic loading. It was stamped "LC" but Berden primed. I think there was some fake Chinese "RG" marked .308 as well.

Since I use .308 primarily for testfiring customer guns, it is important to me that it be value priced, but also of a quality that makes my testfire meaningful. Does the ammo suck or is there a problem with the gun? So I only use known-good ammo. When I find it at a competitive price, I buy as much as I can afford. Right now I'm using LC, because I'm out of FMP, RG, and Malay (which had some minor issues), and my Santa Barbara is actually better than the USGI. I'm looking to buy a dozen more cases when I can find a good deal - probably be PMC or Israeli.
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Old October 20, 2018, 16:56   #16
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Steel cases also are less elastic than brass, so they allow a little more soot to make its way into the chamber. You can usually see this on a recently fired steel 5.56 case - it’ll have a “ring” of carbon near the shoulder where the case did expand and seal. More soot in the chamber can build up and require more cleaning. But it does run reliably in my AR - albeit a little light.

The presenters did skew this by not using any of the standard civilian or milsurp 147 grain brass case ammo available everywhere. I found steel case Tula 308 to work reliably in the bolt action I tried it in, but it’s not the most consistent and was loaded a little light. This doesn’t mean the guy who used a SCAR in Afghanistan didn’t experience malfunctions though. The rifle he used could have had worn or broken parts. A failing extractor or extractor spring will give you intermittent FTE’s, and I’ve seen this in both new guns I owned and military rifles that I and others were issued. A few military SCAR’s could have wound up with bad parts installed too.
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Old October 20, 2018, 16:59   #17
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Shooting junk in intermediate calibers is fine. Probably fine for bolt guns for a full powered rifle round but not going to happen in a 308 auto loader. The loads are inconsistent. I’m shooting some x39 stuff on strippers that is showing 2550 FPS. I have another bunch of 308 I built clocking about 2900 FPS. I just leave the brass because it’s done from the snatching and the violence of the load. Steel just worries me in a full powered auto loader
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Old October 20, 2018, 18:30   #18
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Absolutely 100% flawless in 1000+ or so through my 17 and probably another thou or two I have personally seen in a couple of friends' rifles, and probably yet another coupl of thousand they have told me have shot with zero problems. I have no reason to disbelieve their testimony. The one dude has a rep for never cleaning his weapons, but I doubt that he has put enough through an individual rifle to cause any problems due to that.
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Old October 21, 2018, 17:43   #19
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