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Old January 30, 2012, 19:05   #1
W.E.G.
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DSA 20-round mags -- 2012 version

Finally got my hands on the DSA version 2.0 US-made mag.

First, no range report yet.
They just showed up on the porch, so I took some pics and fondled them some.

I will say that 20 rounds loaded into the 2012 mag MUCH BETTER than the
brass-over-sandpaper experience that came with the version 1.0 mags.
(discussion of my issues with the version 1.0 mags at http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...postid=2728377)

Version 2.0 is a blued finish.
Not a very well-finished blued finish either I might add.
I would describe the bluing as mottled and uneven. Even a few surface-rust spots.
Now, let me stop right here and say I don't really care much about the finish.
So long as there is some sort of finish on it, and it functions, we'll call it acceptable.

Now that I got that off my chest, I will mention that the mag comes with a very oily coating
on it. Not like cosmolene. More like motor oil?
Prepare to wipe these buggers down as soon as the come out of the box, or you will
be wearing on your clothes whatever that stuff is on the paper towel.



The version 2.0 mag body is unmistakable.
It has two embossed pinstripes on the front!



The pinstripes are the only unique feature I could discern on the mag body.

The floorplate and follower each have dsarms.com logos (all lower-case letters) stamped on them.





Back edge is typical for FAL mags.



Spring is robust.



Comparison to my #1 range-mag (one of those Belgian 10-pack "stuck" mags)
Nothing remarkable I can perceive in the comparison.



The version 1.0 mags had sharp feed lips that would slice you but good if you were not careful.
I can't say version 2.0 is any better in the sharp-feed-lips department, except that the rounds
load into (and out of) the version 2.0 mag without incident. As such, the opportunity to slice
yourself on the feed lips is lessened.

I normally like to "dress" the feed lips on my "important" mags.
I won't dick with these lips until I've had a chance to range test them.

I wasn't able to get the greatest pic of the sharp edge of the feed lip - but here is what I got.

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Old January 30, 2012, 20:05   #2
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Let us know how the shooting goes. I bought one awhile ago and have yet
to take it to the range.....

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Old January 30, 2012, 21:31   #3
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All this fuss makes me even more happy that I got enough mags back when they were $8 each to last until my grandkids get tired of shooting.
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Old January 31, 2012, 16:58   #4
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Its black oxide not blued

Thanks
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Old January 31, 2012, 21:51   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
The version 1.0 mags had sharp feed lips that would slice you but good if you were not careful.
I can't say version 2.0 is any better in the sharp-feed-lips department, except that the rounds
load into (and out of) the version 2.0 mag without incident. As such, the opportunity to slice
yourself on the feed lips is lessened.

I normally like to "dress" the feed lips on my "important" mags.
I won't dick with these lips until I've had a chance to range test them.

I wasn't able to get the greatest pic of the sharp edge of the feed lip - but here is what I got.

I got five of these from AIM. I noticed the same thing about the "serrated" lips. I had a couple of failures to feed in my Imbel. I decided if I was going to dress the lips I might as well convert them to SCAR 17 mags. They all work fine now, in my 17 ...





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Old January 31, 2012, 22:22   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyReb View Post
I got five of these from AIM. I noticed the same thing about the "serrated" lips. I had a couple of failures to feed in my Imbel. I decided if I was going to dress the lips I might as well convert them to SCAR 17 mags. They all work fine now, in my 17 ...
Interesting.....I always read that this conversion had problems.

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Old February 01, 2012, 05:21   #7
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JohnnyReb,
Will factory Scar17 mags work in your FAL?
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Old February 01, 2012, 13:17   #8
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Quote:
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JohnnyReb,
Will factory Scar17 mags work in your FAL?
I do not think so? No beak in front...

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Old February 02, 2012, 05:34   #9
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Me, I'm waiting for Moses mags.
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Old February 02, 2012, 09:02   #10
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Glad to see it finally here. The 30s are just too long.

25 is the perfect length, IMO.

Are the front racing stripes unique to the 2012? I noticed on one that I examined, that the narrow stripe on the side of the DSA didn't go all the way through the top radius, it had a stop to the channel. The import stripe continued until the radius made it disappear. Or the other way I round I don't remember which was which and I don't have it in front of me.

It would be nice to be able to tell them apart .
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Old February 04, 2012, 18:25   #11
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Range report on the 20 rounders: FAIL.

Three rifles were used for the test.

Each rife was built on an IMBEL Type 3 receiver.

Sledgehammer built the upper on the right.
I built the other two.

Each of these rifles is a "known good" rifle.
(i.e. no history of persistent malfunctions.)

In order to avoid losing track of which mag was which I marked each of the two DSA mags
with silver pen "A" and "B" respectively.

Each mag was loaded with 20 rounds of Pakistani surplus ammo and tested in each rifle.

The same drill was done for each mag and rifle, but using shiny Hirtenberger surplus ammo.

I have fired hundreds of rounds of each of these types of ammo without any persistent issues with cycling failures.

Not one time would any of these mags function through all 20 rounds in any of the three rifles.

Typically, the first 10 rounds would cycle just fine.
Then, sometime after the 10th round, the bolt-over-base malfunctions would occur.

100% fail.







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Old February 04, 2012, 21:10   #12
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Looks like DSA hits another one outta the park...That's disappointing. I picked up a few to convert into 10 round mags, yeah California sucks. What in the hell is that crap they come covered in? Looks and feels like a mixture of diesel soot and cosmoline. The finish is interesting in that there appears to be some kind of surface rust. The DSA rep said it's black oxide, but it almost looks like bluing salts that weren't totally removed. Is DSA becoming the Vulcan/Hesse of the FAL world? It's disappointing to spend money on something that turns out to be crap.
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Old February 04, 2012, 23:23   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1 View Post
What in the hell is that crap they come covered in? Looks and feels like a mixture of diesel soot and cosmoline.
The two from today's test are showing quite the speckled "patina" after a day of handling them at the range.

Bolt-over-base misfeed rounds showed the typical gouge that happens with this sort of misfeed.





I guess I'll try to "dress" the lips of the mags to see if that helps.
Try again next weekend. Burn more ammo.
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Old February 04, 2012, 23:37   #14
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The really big nasty burr probably is from trying to clear the rifle while the round was trapped between the bolt and the magazine.

Hard to say for sure when in the feeding (or clearing) cycle the gouges near the shoulder occurred.

All I know for sure is the magazine is not letting the later rounds in the mag feed into the chamber before the inertia of the bolt carries the bolt over the base of the cartridges.
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Old February 04, 2012, 23:46   #15
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My #1 suspect in what is eating into the shoulder of the brass during the feed-cycle is this forward guide-lip.

No theories though on why the mag is not releasing the rounds sooner.
If the mag released the round sooner, seems to me the fat part of the cartridge would guide OVER this forward lip, rather than INTO it.

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Old February 05, 2012, 06:23   #16
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That sucks Gary......... Ordered a few of the new DSA mags last week.
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Old February 05, 2012, 09:50   #17
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It looks like a combination of weak springs,and those damn chisel-shaped mag body edges. Maybe a de-burring tool,with a radius to it,to somewhat round over those edges? A dremel with light grit stone? That sharp edge it grabbing the cartridge with greater force than the spring is pushing it upward,and somethings gotta give.
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Old February 05, 2012, 11:49   #18
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Lightbulb HELLO DSA REP?

YOUR QUALITY CONTROL CONVOY JUST TOOK A DIRECT HIT!
WHAT NOW!
RESPECTFULLY REQUESTED...

GREETINGS MARK/GUNPLUMBER, WHAT IS YOUR OBSERVATION?
WEAK SPRINGS?

RESPECTFULLY REQUESTED...
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Old February 05, 2012, 12:37   #19
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I have no opinion of the specifc magazines WEG has shown.

In general, bolt over base is called by

short stroking
bevel on leading edge of bolt
mag catch too short
mag well too long
catch on mag excessively worn
mag feed lips bent downward
damaged mag follower or body (round can't move up fast enough)
feed lips worn front side (too early release).

I have an alloy mag I've been using for 15 years and has had maybe ten thousand of rounds through it - one of my oldest range mags. I've finally marked it as "bad". The right front feed lip is worn excessively. The test is to push the cartridges down in the half-full mag (I use plastic 1911 bushing wrench), then let them go to snap back up. If the nose of the round passes the lip, the mag is toast.
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Old February 05, 2012, 12:59   #20
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These mags lock into the rifle(s) very snug.

Only a slight side-to-side wobble can be perceived once the mag is locked.

On one of the mags I de-burred the lips all around, and with special attention to the lips that I believe are most responsible for "eating into" the brass during feeding.

Used a small file for the rough-deburring, then 220-grit sandpaper to remove any rough or uneven areas.

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Old February 05, 2012, 13:05   #21
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I'm not sure whether the "patina" on these mags is growing.

Its not like I'm storing them in the crawlspace under the bathtub.

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Old February 07, 2012, 17:17   #22
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My package arrived from AIM today. Mags look terrible. Poor finish with what looks like light spots of rust developing. Tried a 25 to see if it locks up in a gun and it did. My overall first impression is the Korean mags look and feel better. 1/2 of the 25rd mag followers don't reset all the way to the top like a typical Steyr or Belgian. May just send the package back to AIM and take the hit on the shipping........ This has not been a good day..............

Unless there is a radical change at DSA this will be my last purchase.
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Old February 07, 2012, 17:30   #23
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1/2 of the 25rd mag followers don't reset all the way to the top like a typical Steyr or Belgian.
I noticed this on the 30 that I tested - seemed the radius for the lips was too abrupt, preventing the follower from coming all the way up. It still fed the last round, but it wasn't my mag so I only got to test the one time.
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Old February 07, 2012, 19:23   #24
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Why the hell do they keep releasing mags when they clearly don't work?

For anyone who asks why Moses keeps taking so long to release his, we can just point them to threads like this. At least he is doing tons of testing.
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Old February 07, 2012, 23:44   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwobhm View Post
My package arrived from AIM today. Mags look terrible. Poor finish with what looks like light spots of rust developing. Tried a 25 to see if it locks up in a gun and it did. My overall first impression is the Korean mags look and feel better. 1/2 of the 25rd mag followers don't reset all the way to the top like a typical Steyr or Belgian. May just send the package back to AIM and take the hit on the shipping........ This has not been a good day..............

Unless there is a radical change at DSA this will be my last purchase.
Wow, good looking out, I was thinking of ordering some of these to play with...I guess not.
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Old February 08, 2012, 18:40   #26
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In my journey to design and make the Moses FAL mag I have found that there are some very critical dimensions that have to be dead on, these include but are not limited to what I am listing below.

1. The location of the front beak
2. The location of the rear locking tab
3. The height and radius of the rear feedlips

If one is incorrect it can cause bolt over cartidge problems.

Here is a review I posted on a different thread of the DSA mags I just received.



I ordered 2 30's, 2-25's and a 20 round mag to add to my mag collection from Aim.

I got them today.

The finish looks like they are hot blued.

Mine are not finished very well they have a lot of splotches and some have a little bit of what looks like surface rust in places and also they have scratches on them, I assume from handling since they were not in individual wrappers or bags.

2 of the mags the follower is kinda binding on the sides of the inside of the mag when I press the follower down by hand.
I have not had a chance to shoot with them yet but I don't think the binding will be enough to effect function.

I am not sending them back unless they don't function, as although I think the finish should be much better I am not really worried about it as I plan on using them and the finish will get worn anyway, plus I can always parkerize or gunkote them if I want.

Just thought I would pass along this info and see if others had the same type of finish problems with their DSA mags.
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Old February 08, 2012, 20:37   #27
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In my journey to design and make the Moses FAL mag I have found that there are some very critical dimensions that have to be dead on, these include but are not limited to what I am listing below.

1. The location of the front beak
2. The location of the rear locking tab
3. The height and radius of the rear feedlips

If one is incorrect it can cause bolt over cartidge problems.

Here is a review I posted on a different thread of the DSA mags I just received.



I ordered 2 30's, 2-25's and a 20 round mag to add to my mag collection from Aim.

I got them today.

The finish looks like they are hot blued.

Mine are not finished very well they have a lot of splotches and some have a little bit of what looks like surface rust in places and also they have scratches on them, I assume from handling since they were not in individual wrappers or bags.

2 of the mags the follower is kinda binding on the sides of the inside of the mag when I press the follower down by hand.
I have not had a chance to shoot with them yet but I don't think the binding will be enough to effect function.

I am not sending them back unless they don't function, as although I think the finish should be much better I am not really worried about it as I plan on using them and the finish will get worn anyway, plus I can always parkerize or gunkote them if I want.

Just thought I would pass along this info and see if others had the same type of finish problems with their DSA mags.


Just a side note, I purchased some 30rd mags from DSA at the April 2011 Knob Creek shoot.

Thread is here

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308563

Those mags are PARKED, and I've had no problems with their finish.

DSA_ARMS rep even comment with this

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=36
"....the mags sold at the creek were parked; the official finish is now black oxide."
Cannot comment on current issue mags, but these original ones I bought have not rusted, maybe they should go back to PARK instead of "black oxide"
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Old February 09, 2012, 20:37   #28
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The DSA rep posted here earlier, is he aware of the problem with the mags?
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Old February 09, 2012, 20:53   #29
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The DSA rep posted here earlier, is he aware of the problem with the mags?
DSARMS_REP Last Activity: February 07, 2012 18:38

The silence tells me yes......
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Old February 09, 2012, 22:00   #30
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Moses, we are glad you are taking your time. You only get one initial chance to build a reputation for quality, and look at how fast word spreads on the internet with things like this thread being a perfect example.
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Old February 10, 2012, 23:56   #31
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Wow, sad to see they still haven't got it right. Looks like Moses and surplus mags will be the only way to go. Thanks for the review and heads up.
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Old February 11, 2012, 01:13   #32
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Here's a vid of one of the "test rifles" using some surplus mag that I've had in the mag bag for 10 years or so. Paint-over-park finish. IMBEL??? South African???

To my recollection, this rifle has never had a feed-malfunction with any mag until the DSA mag was attempted.



I won't be testing guns this weekend.
Weather is supposed to be 18-degree wind chill, with rain. Fuckthat.
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Old February 13, 2012, 07:39   #33
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Thank you for the report, WEG. At least we know to stick to surplus or wait for Moses instead of blowing money on the DSAs that won't work.
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Old February 14, 2012, 14:48   #34
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Say..didn't you play "Murdock" in the "A-Team"?
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Old February 14, 2012, 20:27   #35
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The DSA rep posted here earlier, is he aware of the problem with the mags?
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Old February 14, 2012, 21:10   #36
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The slience is deafening, isn`t it.
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Old February 15, 2012, 01:34   #37
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LOL. What episode was that from???? I don't think I ever saw him in a wedding dress.
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Old February 18, 2012, 21:12   #38
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Range report including the mag with the de-burred feed lips.

Still don't work.

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Old February 19, 2012, 00:24   #39
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No video but I finally got my one 20rd mag out to test it. Not too good....

I loaded 20 rounds and noticed the left side round was very hard to load past
the front left small feed lip. It actually looked larger than the right one?
Loaded all 20 rounds but pretty tight. May need to have the spring set??
Took it out to the range and ran it.

I got a round chambered and it would feed and shoot the first two rounds and
then the third would fire and then get stuck on the extractor and not come
back far enough to extract. Upped the gas. Load up the remaining 17 rounds after clearing and the same thing happened. Fire two and after the third fired it stuck the same way. The last 14 rounds fired off without a hitch??

I took it home and left it loaded up with 20 rounds. Maybe too much upward tension from the spring? But not sure why two rounds would feed and the third would cause the problem??

Anyway... kind of a bummer.

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Old February 19, 2012, 01:44   #40
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My 25 rounders load just fine, I haven't tested their shooting function yet. I suppose I could pull the firing pin and cycle them by hand. I don't have great confidence at this point though.

I did stone down the lips some. No real sharp edges but I figured it couldn't hurt after the negative reviews. Some say they fit tightly in the mag well but compared to my Steyr mags (rock solid in an Entreprise type III) they are sloppy, as though they took the specs off the alloy mags instead, which aren't quite as loose as the DSA 25's.

If they don't function well I'll be sure to berate DSA endlessly. I know Gary has a little more to lose by doing so. I don't.

What kind of company is DSA? They charge high shipping rates, then tack on "handling fees" and are slow as hell to get an order out the door. Slugs. I haven't forgotten the Motega thread about broken firing pins and other junk manufacturing. Why doesn't DSA address this PROPERLY? I won't really bring the rep into it, he has to suffer with crap manufacturing like the rest of us, more so actually cause he takes the heat here. They are beginning to remind me of Entreprise, minus Matt......
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Old February 21, 2012, 16:55   #41
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Well great, I should have checked here before ordering. I just got in 3 20 rounders from AIM. Finish looks good on mine, nice and even, they load just fine but it will be awhile before I can live fire test them.

Has anyone tried to use the DSA follower, spring and floorplate in a GI mag body to see if it still functions?
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Old February 24, 2012, 19:26   #42
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Yes, I know its a blurry pic.

Decided to put away the DSA mags, and figured I'd put them away clean.

Opened up the bottom of one and what do I see.



Mind you, I DROWNED this mag in Break Free on the first day I owned it.
(As if there was any choice since it was shipped drowned in some dirty and foul-smelling oil, that had to go.)

After all that, its rusting.
And rusting at the points where whatever concoction was used to apply the "finish" on this thing is now seeping out of the crevices.

Just yuck.
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Old February 24, 2012, 20:52   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Yes, I know its a blurry pic.

Decided to put away the DSA mags, and figured I'd put them away clean.

Opened up the bottom of one and what do I see.



Mind you, I DROWNED this mag in Break Free on the first day I owned it.
(As if there was any choice since it was shipped drowned in some dirty and foul-smelling oil, that had to go.)

After all that, its rusting.
And rusting at the points where whatever concoction was used to apply the "finish" on this thing is now seeping out of the crevices.

Just yuck.

YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old February 24, 2012, 21:24   #44
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I dug at the brown stuff with a dental pick after I posted the pic.

Even put on my reading glasses.

Weird stuff.
Definitely rust-COLORED brown sludge.

It seemed to mostly wipe off when I really buffed at it.
Why was it oozing out of the seams of the mag?

Makes no sense to me.
The only stuff that has been in that mag is the nasty blackish oil that I wiped off the mag as soon as I pulled it out of the mailing box, a couple of fills of ammo, and Break Free.

Could DSA REALLY have used some sort of brownish grease in forming the seams on the mag???

I give up on these clunkers.
They're oiled (AGAIN,) and bagged, and soon to be sent on their merry way.
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Old February 25, 2012, 02:05   #45
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Gary it's the black oxide, for some reason it oozes that stuff for a long time!
Sometimes it oozes this white crusty stuff too.
And it is costic also, gets on your skin and burns!

I know this because I used to work at a place in 2000 and we built AK's and would have them black oxided and they would ooze that stuff.

DSA should just go back to parkerizing as it looks better is more resistant to rust and doesn't ooze a caustic solution.
Reason is black oxiding is cheaper and much less labor intensive, as in I don't think they are sand blasting them.
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Old February 25, 2012, 16:50   #46
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I was beginning to wonder if they contracted the finishing out to that guy in Oregon.
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Old February 26, 2012, 19:44   #47
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Thanks a lot W.E.G for this detailed testing.
Today finally I got a break from my Daughter and I sneaked to the indoor range where I can load as many cartridges as I want (full) so I decided to test the 5 DSA mags I got from AIM some time ago.

FAIL

Whate else? well.....these are the 2nd generation, no doubt. I'm dissapointed but I knew what was going to happen after reading W.E.G.'s report.

I sent an email to AIM, I want to return them. They are not reliable.
5 mags. 20 rounds on each. I experience at least one failure to feed on each mag.
I noticed that they are harder to load (by hand, like I learned @ my military service) than the surplus mags, by far.
Also, I noticed that when I load the first cartridge in the chamber with the bolt hold open .....the bolt/carrier group moves SLOWER than it does when I have any of the surplus mags....so I guess that the cartridges are fitting too tight in the mag?.....

Oh...well....let's see what response I get from AIM.

Moses; take your time....give us a great FAL MAG.
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Old February 26, 2012, 23:42   #48
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The good news is that it looks like AIM's Customer Service is awesome!; they replied to my email in less than an hour on Sunday afternoon! with the autorization for sending the 5 DSA Mags for credit!. Well done AIM!
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Old February 27, 2012, 00:15   #49
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I guess we got spoiled with the cheap OEM mags, I thank my lucky stars I have enough and them some. The OEM Fal mag was probably the best designed magazine ever made. I have never had a problem I could attribute to a mag, they are robust, they don't rust, they just work. My M14 mags rust like crazy, no matter whether they are blue, parked, oem or korean fake.
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Old February 27, 2012, 10:14   #50
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Man.. I take a break from the files for awhile & when I come back DSA has turned into Century Arms. Do they make anything these days that's not a POS ? I'm reading posts about junk mags, junk bolts, junk lowers, no parts in stock, shitty customer service, etc. Then I see they have a new "rep" who was posting now & then & making some sort of attempt to resolve some of these issues but he hasn't posted now in almost a month. Did he get tired of trying to "fix" issues knowing the higher ups in the company really don't care ? What's the "real story" ? Are they too busy making ARs, fulfilling government contracts, just don't have anyone there anymore who gives a rats ass, etc ? What's the reason they seem to have dropped the ball bigtime ? They were always considered to be the top dog when it came to quality. Maybe because they had all those awsome Steyr parts and now that those are gone they've moved on to other ventures as well ? I just don't get it. DSA Rep... Hello... hello... is there anybody out there ? Just nod if you can hear me... etc.
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