Legal storage of ammo?

[Gazz]

A guy came into the shop tonight and told us that he had heard that it is illegal to store more than a certain amount of ammunition in a watertight or sealed container. Surpassing the allowed number of rounds ( I forget how many he said but it was not that much) makes you terrorist suspect and subject to the arrest under the Patriot Act. So you are whisked away to Gitmo with no legal counsel . Has anybody heard of this before? Is it true?
The shop owner said that a similar thing was done prior to Y2k prohibiting storage of more than 7 days of food. Never heard of that one either.

[fixit]

I thought the storage limit was for reloading powder. Something like maximum of 32lbs in a specified plywood box?

[Scott V2]

usually dictated by local FD regulations. They have no appreciation for apocalypse storage of primers

[shlomo]

I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the GFY clause.

[K. Funk]

Took me about 3 seconds, but yes, Amen, GFY!!

krf

[JasonB]

If your shop carries any reloading stuff you likely have something like this that mentions NFPA code on storage/transport of powder:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ess_Powder.pdf

[NEWFNL1A1]

Originally posted by K. Funk
Took me about 3 seconds, but yes, Amen, GFY!!

krf

Ok. I finally got it......

[ftierson]

Originally posted by shlomo
I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the GFY clause.

About sums it up...

Forrest

[stubdog25]

+1 with shlo

[L Haney]

All my ammo was lost in that unfortunate canoeing accident.

But the bunker with the howitzer rounds is fireproof. Ya' don't fool around with that shit.

[Gazz]

While I agree with the GFY clause, I would like to know if there really is a "law" like this.

Powder storage is generally regulated by the local fire marshal/fire department. I have tried to get an answer from them regarding that and have never got a response other than "I don't know I'll have to look into that".

[W.E.G.]

Usually governed by the local fire code adopting one of the several model codes from one of the professional associations.

You'll have to go to the library to read it, because these codes are NEVER available online.
They will SELL you a copy at about $100 a pop.

The Fire Marshal probably has a copy you can peruse.

When you get to the part about how many primers may be stored in a residential structure, you'll throw it down, and walk out of there muttering FTS....

[def90]

Originally posted by Gazz
A guy came into the shop tonight and told us that he had heard that it is illegal to store more than a certain amount of ammunition in a watertight or sealed container. Surpassing the allowed number of rounds ( I forget how many he said but it was not that much) makes you terrorist suspect and subject to the arrest under the Patriot Act. So you are whisked away to Gitmo with no legal counsel . Has anybody heard of this before? Is it true?
The shop owner said that a similar thing was done prior to Y2k prohibiting storage of more than 7 days of food. Never heard of that one either.

Yes, there are many anti hoarding laws, some at the federal level, some at the state level and some as presidential executive orders. Someone else here posted something about this as pertaining to food some time ago. If these laws pertain to food i am sure there are similar laws that pertain to everything else such as guns and ammo.

I have read that in MA without a permit you are allowed no more than 10,000 rounds of rimfire, no more than 10,000 rounds of center fire, no more than 5,000 rounds of shotgun.



http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...hreadid=314260

From the above link:

"EO #12919 was released by the President on June 6th, 1994, which the following EO's fall under.

EO #10995 Federal seizure of all communications media in the United States

EO #10997 Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private.

EO #10998 Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment.

EO #10999 Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind, and total control over highways, seaports and waterways.

EO #11000 Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires.

EO #11001 Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both private and public.

EO #11002 Empowers the Postmaster General to register all men, women and children in the United States.

EO #11003 Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft.

EO #11004 Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe", establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build housing with public funds.

EO #11005 Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways, and storage facilities both public and private.

EO # 11051 Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis.

******
“EO #11051 is interesting; it authorizes FEMA near-total power in times of crisis. There's been lots of discussion on the Internet regarding the excessive control FEMA has been granted.

FEMA was created by President Carter under Executive Order #12148. Its legal authorization is Title 42, United States Code 5121 (42 USC Sec. 5121) called the "Stafford Act." During activation of Executive Orders, FEMA answers only to the National Security Council which answers only to the President. Once these powers are invoked, not even Congress can intervene or countermand them for six months.

What Clinton, or Reagan, or any other president did when writing an EO, was to direct his Cabinet member(s), in this case FEMA, to take specific action to carry out the directives of the EO. Where Jimmy Carter had created FEMA by Executive Order in 1979, Robert Safford took it a step further and pushed a bill through in 1988 that made it law. This legislation made FEMA a bona fide department like Justice. Where the EO is critical to the USC (United States Code) and Title 50, is in interpreting the law how that department or FEMA, should conduct itself when declaring they will tell the states, national guard, military forces, or whomever, to confiscate extra hoarded food or medical supplies or whatever...

We must also consider any PDD (Presidential Decision Directives) Ok, so who will determine how much food we have in our house - why FEMA of course. And the amount depends on the need of all...not your needs or my needs...but the "welfare" of the needy.

Bottom line? Clinton delegated authority to FEMA to run the show however it sees fit if he declares a national emergency. Who will determine how much food we can have in our house? FEMA. And the amount depends on the needs of all...not your needs or my needs...but the "welfare" of the needy.
Many people have balked about FEMA's extensive authority, but think about it, what other agency has the manpower to cover and implement aid? As it is, FEMA still does not have the manpower to control every city all over the US in times of crisis. Chances are they would only be dispatched to larger metropolitan areas where more crowd control might be needed. Lots of people suggest darker reasons for their existence, but this site is only addressing anti-hoarding legislation, nothing else.

EO #11051 covering "economic or financial crisis" certainly would have Y2K implications as well. An emergency does not have to be defined as another Hurricane Hugo or massive Midwestern flooding.

State Legislation's Role in Anti-Hoarding;
The other area where anti-hoarding confusion might have arisen is state legislation. Most states have chosen to enact their own anti-hoarding laws. That means some states may not have such laws, others do and not all are uniform. However, uniformity of state law is something governors are striving for under the Interstate Compact Agreement. The Compact Agreements, much like Executive Orders for the president, really don't require voters' input. They are law if the legislature doesn't object, much like Congress that has 30 days to object to an EO before it becomes law.

At times of "declared emergencies", each governor cedes (gives over) authority of his/her state to the federal government. When a governor declares it for his state, he becomes the delegated representative of the federal government according to an Interstate Compact Agreement. Bottom line, even though federal legislation does not directly address anti-hoarding, goods can be seized if national circumstances are felt to warrant it whether or not amounts stored are deemed excessive in your state's eyes.”"

[one hand clapping]

Thank you for the straight dope--

That is why I stand firmly with Shlomo-- the GFY clause is now in full effect at my homestead.

OHC

[rowjimmy]

I only own one round of .22 short and an old 12 ga. shotgun hull. I figure one day I'll get around to shooting it and then I'll just have the spent case. It sure is shiny.

If they ever ban ammo, I suggest you guys turn it in one round at a time.

[stubdog25]

WEG,

What was the approximate number of primers, when you found out how many primers may be stored in a residential structure?

[JeffJ]

Originally posted by shlomo
I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the GFY clause.

+1 yep it all comes down to attitude.

[Sgt_Gold]

One of the advantages of annual referesher training is the company that provides the OSHA compliance course for my company trains companies nation wide in different safety laws and codes. Two weeks ago I asked one of the instructors if there was any national fire or safety code that pertained to the storage of ammuniton or reloading components on private property. I was told that NFPA pertained to commercial properties and the employer\employee relationship, not what you're hording in your basement. It's always possible that your state\county\town didn't want to write their own fire code, and adopted NFPA code as their regulations, but that's easy enough to find out. Botton line is GFY will probably suffice.

[JasonB]

This is in just about every reloading manual I have ever laid hands that has been printed in the last 20+ years (really think every reloading manual, but erring on the side of caution) and it does mention quantities and how to's for residential and commercial storage.



Know the Following Recommendations
on Storage and Handling
Issued by the National Fire Protection Association
Battery March Park, Quincy, MA 02269 and reprinted
with their permission:
NFPA 495
Explosive Materials Code
1996 Edition

This edition of NFPA 495, Explosive Materials Code, was prepared
by the Technical Committee on Explosives and acted on by the
National Fire Protection Association, Inc. at its Annual Meeting held
May 20-23, 1996, in Boston, MA. It was issued by the Standards
Council on July 18, 1996, with an effective date of August 9,
1996, and supersedes all previous editions.
The 1996 edition of this document has been approved by the
American National Standards Institute.
Origin and Development of NFPA 495
This code was originally issued in 1912 as the Suggested State Law
to Regulate the Manufacture, Storage, Sale and Use of Explosives.
The second edition was issued in 1941 by the Committee on laws
and Ordinance and retitled Suggested Explosives Ordinance for
Cities. Later, the document number NFPA 495L was designated.
After being assigned to the Committee on Chemicals and Explosives,
a new edition was issued in 1959. This was retitled as the Code for
the Manufacture, Transportation, Storage, and Use of Explosives and
Blasting Agents and redesigned as NFPA 495.
Following reorganization of the committee in 1960, the responsibility
for amendments to NFPA 495 was assigned to the Sectional
Committee on Explosives. This committee reported to the Correlating
Committee on Chemicals and Explosives. Revised editions were
issued in 1962, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969 and 1970. A new edition
was issued in 1972 with the document title revised to code for
the Manufacture, Transportation, Storage, and Use of Explosive
Materials. A subsequent edition followed in 1973.
Following the issuance of the 1973 edition, the Sectional Committee
on Explosives was redesignated as a Technical Committee. In 1976,
the committee began a detailed review intended to amend requirements
so that there were no conflicts with the regulations promulgated
by the various federal agencies concerned with explosive materials
(Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, U.S. Mine Safety and
Health Administration, US Department of Transportation, etc.) This
effort resulted in the 1982 edition, which was subsequently followed
by a new edition in 1985. In 1990, the document was again
revised and included the title being changed to the Explosive
Materials Code. The latest edition, issued in 1996, incorporates
change in the classification of explosives to conform with recent U.S.
Department of Transportation “Hazardous Materials Regulations”
which in turn are based on United Nations Recommendations on the
Transport of Dangerous Goods. The 1996 edition also includes technical
and editorial

Chapter 11
Small Arms Ammunition and Primers, Smokeless Propellants,
and Black Powder Propellants
11-1 Basic Requirements.
11-1.1 In addition to all other applicable requirements of this
code, intrastate transportation of small arms ammunition, small
arms primers, smokeless propellants, and black powder shall comply
with US Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials
Regulations, 49 CFR, Parts 100-199.
11-1.2 This chapter applies to the channels of distribution of and
to the users of small arms ammunition, small arms primers, smokeless
propellants, and black powder.
11-1.3 This chapter does not apply to in-process storage and
intra-plant transportation during manufacture.
11-1.4 This chapter applies to the transportation and storage of
small arms ammunition and components.
11-1.5 This chapter does not apply to safety procedures in the use
of small arms ammunition and components.
11-3 Smokeless Propellants
11-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 lb.
(11.3 kg) in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of
Transportation, may be transported in a private vehicle.
11-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb.
(11.3 kg) but not exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), transported in a private
vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having
wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
11-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb. (22.7 kg) of smokeless
propellants in a private vehicle is prohibited.
11-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants in quantities
not exceeding 100 lb. (45.4 kg) may be reclassed for transportation
purposes as flammable solids (Division 4.1) when packaged
in accordance with the U.S. Department of Transportation
Hazardous Materials Regulation (49 CFR, Part 173.171), and shall
be transported accordingly.
11-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding
100 lb. (45.4 kg); or not packaged in accordance with the regulations
cited in 11-3.4 shall be transported in accordance with the
U.S. Department of Transportation regulations for Division 1.3C propellant
explosives.
11-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers
approved by US Department of Transportation.
11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
11-3.8 Not more than 20 lb. (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in
containers of a 1 lb. (0.45 kg) maximum capacity shall be displayed
in commercial establishments.
11-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be
stored as follows:
(a) Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) but not exceeding 100 lb.
(45.4 kg) shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of
at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness.
(b) Quantities exceeding 100 lb. (45.4 kg) but not exceeding 800
lb. (363 kg) shall be stored in non-portable storage cabinets having
walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb.
(181 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in any one cabinet and
cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m)
or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
(c) Quantities exceeding 800 lb. (363 kg) but not exceeding
5,000 lb. (2,268 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in a building,
provided the following requirements are met:
1. The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized
personnel.
2. Smokeless propellants shall be stored in non-portable storage
cabinets having wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness
and having shelves with no more than 3 ft (0.92 m) of separation
between shelves.
3. No more than 400 lb. (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet.
4. Cabinets shall be located against the walls of the storage room or
warehouse with at least 40 ft. (12.2 m) between cabinets.
5. The separation between cabinets shall be permitted to be
reduced to 20 ft. (6.1 m) where barricades twice the height of the
cabinets are attached to the wall, mid-way between each cabinet.
The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft. (3 m) outward, shall be
firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in (6.4
mm) boiler plate, 2 in (51 mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block.
6. Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by
the US Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable
solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a
fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
7. The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system
installed in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of
Sprinkler Systems.
(d) Smokeless propellants not stored in accordance with 11-3.9
(a), (b), and (c) shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed
and located in accordance with Chapter 6.
Reprinted with permission from NFPA 495: Explosive Material Code,
Copyright ©1996, National Fire Protection Association, Quincy, MA
02269. This reprinted material is not the complete and official position
of the National Fire Protection Association on the referenced subject
which is represented only by the standard in its entirety.

[gunnut1]

Last time I looked, the NFPA police were no where to be found. This applies more to dealers, distributators and manufacturers than it does to us.

[SafetyFactor]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the GFY clause.

The constitution may be in shambles, but the Declaration of Independence STILL STANDS.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

un·al·ien·a·ble adj.: unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor, (including by EO).

Yep, GFY clause still GTG!!

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by gunnut1

Last time I looked, the NFPA police were no where to be found. This applies more to dealers, distributators and manufacturers than it does to us.

11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.


What are "distributators"?

[gunnut1]

Originally Posted by JasonB

11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.


What are "distributators"?

Powder and ammo storage is controlled by the city. The fire department is responsible for the NFPA rules. They are the authority that has jurisdiction.

Read all of the code.

And who elected you the spelling police? Buzz off!

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunnut1

And who elected you the spelling police? Buzz off!

Yeah, dammit. That's MY job.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by JasonB

What are "distributators"?

These?

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by gunnut1

Powder and ammo storage is controlled by the city. The fire department is responsible for the NFPA rules. They are the authority that has jurisdiction.

Read all of the code.

And who elected you the spelling police? Buzz off!

The claim was the NFPA code did not pertain to private stores of powder, simply reading it states otherwise.

Not a bad idea to store it that way since it would likely buy some time on exiting in the event of a fire that can't be contained. Not really sure how insurance companies would view the situation either.

For that reason(in your case), please do not store it in the suggested magazine and perhaps look in to taking out of the original containers and storing it in glass jars with tightly sealed lids. Failure to go all out like that might be an admission I am right!

[gunnut1]

Originally Posted by JasonB

The claim was the NFPA code did not pertain to private stores of powder, simply reading it states otherwise.

Not a bad idea to store it that way since it would likely buy some time on exiting in the event of a fire that can't be contained. Not really sure how insurance companies would view the situation either.

For that reason(in your case), please do not store it in the suggested magazine and perhaps look in to taking out of the original containers and storing it in glass jars with tightly sealed lids. Failure to go all out like that might be an admission I am right!

The NFPA is the ruling body. You are correct. And like the electrical code or NEC, there is no enforcement on the citizen level.again I say, that come under the purview of the authority having jurisdiction. Just so you will under stand what that means. I really don';t expcet you to understand. This is complicated stuff. It means the guys in charge of what ever code you are calling them to your house to check. Have you called the fire code inspector out to youi house to insure that you are correctly storing all of your ammo and primers properly and that you are NOT in violation of the city codes? If you have not, I think you should. After all, Yyu would not want to violate the law. Sounds like something you would do. Idiot.

Do you have the suggested magazine? I very seriously doubt it.

But I do have all of my primer mixed up in plastic tubs and just use them as the come out. The only problem I have with the primers are the ones that have the lflange oaround them. I can figure out how to get the silbver thing out of the middle and I can get to into my ..............45 cases. I must be doing something wrong.

Kiss my ass.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by gunnut1

The NFPA is the ruling body. You are correct. And like the electrical code or NEC, there is no enforcement on the citizen level.again I say, that come under the purview of the authority having jurisdiction. Just so you will under stand what that means. I really don';t expcet you to understand. This is complicated stuff. It means the guys in charge of what ever code you are calling them to your house to check. Have you called the fire code inspector out to youi house to insure that you are correctly storing all of your ammo and primers properly and that you are NOT in violation of the city codes? If you have not, I think you should. After all, Yyu would not want to violate the law. Sounds like something you would do. Idiot.

Had classes on the code book so well aware of the what, why, and all of that. Once again you are wrong.

Originally Posted by gunnut1

Do you have the suggested magazine? I very seriously doubt it.

Once again you are wrong. Similar to wearing a seat belts(other than not a law, which I do oppose,) it isn't a half bad idea to use it.

Originally Posted by gunnut1

But I do have all of my primer mixed up in plastic tubs and just use them as the come out. The only problem I have with the primers are the ones that have the lflange oaround them. I can figure out how to get the silbver thing out of the middle and I can get to into my ..............45 cases. I must be doing something wrong.

Kiss my ass.

While your *ahem* "paragraph" is like reading a transcript of a small child or someone with severe mental retardation talking, from what I can get out of it I can only hope you really are trying to disassemble a shotgun primer and with any luck doing it in a way that will prevent your ignorance from harming someone else on a long term basis.

[gunnut1]

[QUOTE=JasonB;3286369]Had classes on the code book so well aware of the what, why, and all of that. Once again you are wrong.[/
quote]

Did you ever work in the fire protection industry? You are the wrong there Jason. Taking a class on the NFPA does not an expert make. And you damn sure ain't an expert.

Once again you are wrong. Similar to wearing a seat belts(other than not a law, which I do oppose,) it isn't a half bad idea to use it.

Figures you would be the one that would willing break the law. Sure am glad you don't care about your safety.

While your *ahem* "paragraph" is like reading a transcript of a small child or someone with severe mental retardation talking, from what I can get out of it I can only hope you really are trying to disassemble a shotgun primer and with any luck doing it in a way that will prevent your ignorance from harming someone else on a long term basis.

Smater, can't read English?
And it is as I figured. You will believe anything that you read on the net.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by gunnut1

Figures you would be the one that would willing break the law. Sure am glad you don't care about your safety.

What law did I indicate I was willing to break?

[randy762ak]

I have read that some fire departments will back off And allow a House to burn if They find out there is AMMO=Powder-Primers Guns etc. In the home ..It was a city dept.In Rochester NY And Across the Boarder in Ft Erie Canada I believe...Say UNION liberal fire Fighters..

[Dave Hume]

Called my fire department once (right down the street). They asked if I was a dealer or a private individual. I replied, a private individual. They stated there there was no limit that they knew of for a private individual.

I can dig it.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the GFY clause.

LOL! Shoulder-to-shoulder brother!

[Texgunner]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the GFY clause.

And, that about wraps it up! Now, back to Chuck Berry and Old Grand Dad.

[jeffrey]

Originally Posted by shlomo:
"I believe I and most of the people on this board are exempt under the
Go Find Yourself clause."



Yes, me too. I just looked down and there I was!











Oh-just noticed this is a zombie thread.

[hagar]

You probably will never get charged with any offence, but when the house burns down your insurance company will tell you you are SOL.

[TideWater 41009]

Originally Posted by shlomo

These?

"These"? That is a potato.