A Garand, are you nuts?

[lowprone]

In the age of AR pattern rifles w/picatinny railed receivers and forends sporting every conceivable optic and light combination, I have dedicated myself to the venerable M1 Garand in the original .30 Government chambering.

I know that many of the people reading this post are probably very amused by this declaration, why would anyone forsake the current state of the art in small arms civilian weaponry for an obsolete WW2 rifle that you can't even mount an Aimpoint on easily ?

Before your eyes tear up to the point you cannot read this post let me explain my decision and what contributed to it.

I am a late 60's early 70's veteran trained in the classic NRA shooting style with a wood and steel rifle. I compete in NRA Highpower 80 shot across the course high power matches to retain my skillsets. I also compete in 3 gun competitions occasionally with a AR, where in a typical course of fire 25 or more rounds are fired at 5 or 6 targets in 10 to 15 seconds. These match's are supposed to replicate the conditions our troops are encountering.

They are predicated on the assumption that the contestant/survivalist has a never ending logistical supply of ammunition/consumables, thus the
illogical/suicidal lone assaulter style course of fire. They are as dangerous
as paintball games because they encourage reckless behavior. Solitary room breaching exercises and lone MOUT warfare are prescriptions for disaster in the real world. I no longer compete in these type match's.

I reside in a very rural part of the country that has a topography consisting of densely forested mountains from 5K to 7.5K elevations with thousands of rock outcroppings interspersed with highland meadows/ summer pasture land and adjacent to vast areas of rolling prairie land that offer no cover/ concealment save the various cuts and coulee's attributable to mountain runoff. Clearly this topography is suited to the .30 cal weaponsystem.

I am not a member of a militia or extended warrior/rancher family, and expect no assistance from such. I do have access to real time non alphabet news reports and can fairly predict if a storm comes my way.

I am intimately familiar with thousands of forest trails and little known or abandoned roads crisscrossing the Black Hills of South Dakota.
I can comfortably wear a basic load of 80 rounds carried in a M-1923
cartridge belt supported by a harness assembly, a couple of bandoliers of 48 rounds each and the 8 rounds in the rifle amount to 196 rounds .

The M1 Garand is tried and true reliable, rugged, accurate, powerful, fairly intuitive w/repeatable sights. A skilled rifleman with a tight sling in a prone position on a ridgeline is a nightmare for any antagonist out to 600 yards and more, without exposing oneself to return fire.

By carrying one bandolier with black tip AP the 30.06 is daunting to any vehicle occupants intruding on my AO. Thus armed w/weapon, knowledge, a means of locomotion and the ability to provision myself from game or caches I could keep myself from falling prey to most any predator.

I know that my situation is particular to my location, level of health, range of movement, lay of the land, means of transportation, ability to make
extended hikes with all my provisions will differ from yours, but maybe
you need to rethink your position. What if all the people you know never
show up to help with the lifting? Will you be confident with your weapon of choice? I am with mine, it's not perfect, but I'll bet my life on it.

[John Crusher]

Vigilance in living counteracts stupidity in dying.

[Illurian00]

Seems pretty well thought out. My only qualifer would be that two other guys would make an even more effective fire team, but if you ain't got 'em, you ain't got 'em.
Good luck to you...

[olgier]

I like Garands, and I still think you're nutz.

There are alot of other rifles I'd carry before a Garand, but if it works for you, and you have determined that it's the best fit for the roll you are looking for it to fill, then why not.

[L Haney]

Originally posted by lowprone

A skilled rifleman with a tight sling in a prone position on a ridgeline is a nightmare for any antagonist out to 600 yards and more...

Very few people today, barring our service men of the recent and ongoing conflicts have any grasp of this. Even on a theoretical basis.

Lowell

[Illurian00]

Unfortunately the state of marksmenship in the U.S. Army has fallen into a sad state since WW2. Hopefully, this is being rectified.

http://defensetech.org/2010/03/01/ta...alf-kilometer/

The U.S. Army has employed the AppleSeed Project, which teaches the type of riflery tecniques the Army taught before WW2 to 'crash-course' units just before imminent deployment.

[charles isaac]

Originally posted by lowprone
a wood and steel rifle.............. 80 rounds carried in a M-1923 cartridge belt

But what about the tactical? What if you run into some dudes with really, really tactical rifles and super tactical mag pouches like those Tango Down things?

[STGThndr]

I can relate to the original poster's sentiments and I sure do like the Garand, a REAL rifle altho not without its failings. I sold mine to an older former Marine who had carried one back in the day and wanted it more than I did- at the time.
Make mine H&K.
The Lone Gunman scenario... hmmm. The OP postulates a situation that has played out time and again with criminal suspects on the lam. For most it is a no-contest situation.. can't outrun a radio or a chopper. At best, one could hope to elude and get out of the area to someplace completely different.

[lowprone]

In response to Illurian00 maybe I got em, and maybe they don't show up.
I plan for worst case scenario, I hate getting surprised.

[L Haney]

Originally posted by charles isaac


But what about the tactical? What if you run into some dudes with really, really tactical rifles and super tactical mag pouches like those Tango Down things?

Charles, you just won't do, man.

[Illurian00]

quote :
"...maybe I got em, and maybe they don't show up.
I plan for worst case scenario, I hate getting surprised."

No argument from me,,,point well taken. It's a standing question as to what one's buds' will do on Zombie Day.

[kayakpirate]

Cant get much more "low porne" than with a Garand.
20 and 30 rounds mags can perch ya up a bit.
Few battle rifles are as good as a Garand for prone shooting.

[2barearms]

Originally posted by Illurian00
Unfortunately the state of markmenship in the U.S. Army has fallen into a sad state since WW2. Hopefully, this is being rectified.

http://defensetech.org/2010/03/01/ta...alf-kilometer/

The U.S. Army has employed the AppleSeed Project, which teaches the type of riflery tecniques the Army taught before WW2 to 'crash-course' units just before imminent deployment.

Lets hope they don't, I prefer an incompent and ignorant adversary.

[jbrooks]

I'm a big advocate of the scoped Garand. Scope, 'cuz my 60+ year old eyes ain't what they used to be.

An M16 mag pouch holds 8 clips. I like AP... it was the standard load for WWII and Korea, BTW.

Having said all that, my M1A has the identical muzzle velocity as the Garand. The 21" FAL isn't far behind. At some point I'll run out of ammo. No matter what weapon I have, and then I'm toast. If I get into a pissing contest with the gov't /LEO, i lose, no matter what.

So as for me, low key is the way. A 357 mag revolver is fine for me. But I'll keep the Garand, M1A and FAL "just in case".

JWB

[FALic]

I was at the range yesterday and this guy asks me if I compete with my rifle. I said no and asked why. He said, "You don't see many people with one of those loop slings." I said, "It's a military sling, if you want to hit things that's what you use." But he kept persisting about how rare shooters with loop slings are. Then I stopped, looked around, and noticed EVERYBODY was shooting off the bench... It's a state of mind, people are into their rifles' accuracy, rate of fire, and how much Magpul gear is hanging off it.

Ultimately, it's all about your rifle, and your proficiency with your rifle. I don't think it matters much about what your rifle is - just that you know your and its' limitations.

My favorite thing to watch is the CMP matches at my range, all the High Power guys leave their ARs at home and bring out the M1 and M1A rifles, because deep down, real men want .30 caliber rifles. The newbys have the ARs and they always lose.

[lowprone]

Kayakpirate your absolutely right can't get no lower, rock steady w/tight
sling, proverbial glass break trigger by Derrick Martin @Accuracy Speaks
Gunsmithing in Mesa Az., he is the shit. Sights are backlashed, and tight.
factory barrel shoots 18- 22" groups @ 600 w/M2 ball, subtract 3" with
LC 68NM on average, 1954 Springfield best Garand I own.

[charles isaac]

Reloads are a snap with the Garand.

No mag release-clip jumps out on it's own
No bolt release-bolt goes home on it's own (careful!)
No mags to save-en blocks are a dime a dozen
Nothing balances like a Garand-it just "hangs" right

M14 has it's merits-just a "modernized" Garand anyways

20 shots
1 lb less weight
Flash suppressor that works well
.308s more common


Both point like a shotgun for snap shooting. What'd I miss?

[RedRiverSix]

My friend you arent crazy at ALL. The last CQB match I shot with a 7.62 Garand I built on a stripped receiver I got through the CMP in 2001. Every part of the rifle was picked for its future use on the rifle. And after shooting the CQB the mag block I bought came out of her, tied up reloads sometimes, so out she came.
In well trained and competent hands the Garand is still viable as far as I'm concerned.
When I show up to a CQB match with it I get all kinds of crazy looks, but no one says a word when the shooting starts, even the AR guys with thier high speed low drag rifles are quite, true the times I run the course in are slower than thiers, but I'm not in the match to compete against anyone but myself.
Rock on my friend..........

[STGThndr]

It's been years since I was at a "real" shooting range, preferring to shoot at various sites in the mtns around here alone or with friends... consequently I am pretty ignorant of some of the stuff hanging off tacti-cool rifles.. wouldnt surprise me if some of those had computers running them.
When holding/carrying a Garand or M1A there's no doubt that you've got a RIFLE in your hands, a very American rifle. For one reason or another it's not my "go to" rifle but it is my favorite. Kinda like a pre-64 Winchester 94 or Model 70.. classic. Scoping it sounds like a great idea to me...
Someone said "Don't pick a fight with an old guy, he'll just kill ya". Maybe with a Garand. Or a .30-30.
Speaking of prone shooting... I started a (small, quickly put out) grass fire shooting prone with tracer... course I wasnt on a ridge-line at the time.

[W.E.G.]

[W.E.G.]

[olgier]

Originally posted by FALic
Then I stopped, looked around, and noticed EVERYBODY was shooting off the bench...

Closest thing to a bench up here is the hood of my truck. Never been to a "range" that had tables,benches, and roofs.

[Timber Wolf]

Originally posted by W.E.G.

!!!GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

lowprone, reading your post it sounds like you have a well thought out plan, some skills, and good equipment suitable for the task. It is hard to argue with any of that. Enbloc clips certainly seem like one of the lightest and most space efficient means of carrying spare ammunition.

[MAINER]

Originally posted by charles isaac
Reloads are a snap with the Garand.

No mag release-clip jumps out on it's own
No bolt release-bolt goes home on it's own (careful!)
No mags to save-en blocks are a dime a dozen
Nothing balances like a Garand-it just "hangs" right

Both point like a shotgun for snap shooting. What'd I miss?

I'll take 10 dozen of them clips please, where do I send the buck?

Grabbed a bunch at $.50 ea a while ago, but mostly see a $2.50 or $3.00 ea. price tag on them lately.

I like my Garand for plinking, but the bore looks like a sewer pipe. Still barrel shopping for my one and only.

[RedRiverSix]

Originally posted by MAINER
Still barrel shopping for my one and only.

Mainer

try DGR or Futon, its best to try Fulton around Christmas when they are clearing out thier inventory and have a BIG sale.

[lowprone]

The Garand is probably not the best GTG rifle but I already have some, lots of ammo stocked up from multiple trips to Camp Perry, then hitting the ammo
stores, lots of familiarity with the weapon , it was a no brainer.

[mparsons]

I enjoy the M1 platform along with the M14/1A. I live in OH and love to visit the CMP store once or twice a year.

[MAINER]

Originally posted by RedRiverSix



Mainer

try DGR or Futon, its best to try Fulton around Christmas when they are clearing out thier inventory and have a BIG sale.

Appreciated, thanks!

[charles isaac]

Originally posted by MAINER
I'll take 10 dozen of them clips please, where do I send the buck?

Grabbed a bunch at $.50 ea a while ago, but mostly see a $2.50 or $3.00 ea. price tag on them lately.

OOPS! I have a bunch from years ago when they came with the ammo I bought. Not keeping track of current prices I guess. Sorry about that.

[kotengu]

Where do you shoot around there? My dad moved to Rapid City a few years ago and is having a hard time finding a good safe place to shoot. He sounds like your era and is wicked with an '03 or '03-A3 - you guys could probably tell a few tall tales at the Firehouse sometime...

[shortround]

My CQB Garand:

[JoeLad]

Originally posted by shortround
My CQB Garand:

Sweet rifle! Is it chambered in .30-06? If so, how's the muzzle blast?

ETA: Hard to tell if the rounds shown are 7.62 or .30-06.

[shortround]

Originally posted by JoeLad


Sweet rifle! Is it chambered in .30-06? If so, how's the muzzle blast?

ETA: Hard to tell if the rounds shown are 7.62 or .30-06.

'06 and not as bad as you would think. That's some LC in the enblocs.

[JoeLad]

This has me wanting a Tanker style build in 7.62. I have a receiver, and all the rest of the parts from my days when I was hot & heavy building M1s.

[AliYahu]

Originally posted by JoeLad
This has me wanting a Tanker style build in 7.62. I have a receiver, and all the rest of the parts from my days when I was hot & heavy building M1s.

So what's stopping you?

Eli

[hagar]

The Garand is not a bad choice, but it is more suited to long range and not close range doorbusting. Onn the other hand, load it with some AP bullets and you don't have to enter the house, just shoot a few dozen rounds into it!

I have only shot my Garand once at 1000 yards, a standard Danish return with Var barrel and a new laminated stock I put on it, and I was amazed how well it shot with 175 Sierras. I remember I shot 6 10's or X's in a row, and cleaned the clock of some really good shooters from Camp Pendleton shooting M14's. Came in 3rd in the service rifle division, and that after 2 misses in a 180 degree wind change.

[JoeLad]

Originally posted by AliYahu

So what's stopping you?

Eli

I need the 7.62 barrel. I have a .30-06 barrel, but I also have a already have a Tanker in that caliber.

[kayakpirate]

I've got a CMP Service grade.All Springfield.
Serial #26XXXXX.Stock was a little rough.but the barrel
is in a lot better shape than its supposed to be.
Longest distance I've managed is 150 yds.
Damn cows keep wandering around in front of the targets.
Anyway,I grabbed one of those Shuster gas plugs. Really surprised
at how well it works.
Havent really measured out the groups at the range,
just surprised that theyre all in the black,more or less.But I am getting better.

[LAFAL]

You need to load a couple clips with 2 AP, 2 tracers and 4 ball. That way when the truckload of MZBs [mutant zombie bikers] drives up you can shoot through the engine, set it on fire and pick them off when they run through the flames........

[AliYahu]

Originally posted by JoeLad


I need the 7.62 barrel. I have a .30-06 barrel, but I also have a already have a Tanker in that caliber.

http://www.dgrguns.com/0-main-page-barrels.htm

Eli

[gunplumber]

I am a late 60's early 70's veteran trained in the classic NRA shooting style with a wood and steel rifle.

It appears to me that you haven't learned anything new since then.

A garand is probably better than a shotgun, and certainly better than a sharpstick.

I suppose if you make a narrow definition of "need" and ignore all practical realities that have broader focus than your narrow vision, then you can rationalize the Garand. Or even a nice 98 mauser. The Germans sure thought it sufficient.

Heck, if you narrow down your vision far enough, a A Springfield .45-70 trapdoor would be fine.

A lone mountain-man traipsing through the wilderness. If you use your Jeremiah Johnson skills well enough, you will ever need a rifle. But the moment you let down your guard and find yourself plunged into the modern world, you will be chewed up and spit out by ignorant hooligans with nose rings and mohawks, who don't know a skunk from a porcupine, but can do a mag dump with their MAC-10 and hit you at least one out of ten times.

For one gun, I'll stick with a carbine like an AK or AR, or a modern battle rifle like FAL, HK, or M1A.

[jbrooks]

Originally posted by gunplumber
[B] ...A garand is probably better than a shotgun, and certainly better than a sharpstick. ..

C'mon, Mark, the m1 may not be as spiffy as your new SCAR, but it's sent a few more folks to their reward than many other battle rifles.

One appealing feature of the M1 is it's distinctly "Not-an-assault-rifle" look. So it's presence anywhere will not raise eyebrows, unlike if somebody sees an AR (or ESPECIALLY an AK...) in your front seat. Plus, the unit loading of an en bloc clip and the ability to shoot AP at will are also very appealing.

Of course, it's not the most refined battle rifle, but thye're relatively cheap, extremely reliable and well-balanced.

So I'd say it's a LOT better than a shotgun unless you're talking room-clearing. But even then, the M1 was used with great effect in house-to-house combat in Europe.

But I AM an old guy, so maybe that's the problem...

JWB

[gunplumber]

The rotary telephone was cutting technology too, in its day.

[jbrooks]

Originally posted by gunplumber
The rotary telephone was cutting technology too, in its day.

Yea... now, when we have a tornado and all the power goes Tango Uniform for a week, and the cell towers are out, my fancy new cell phone doesn't work. My fancy VOIP leading-edge telecommunications technology doesn't work. My wi-fi hotspot doesn't work.

But I keep an old-fashioned plug-in-the-wall junker phone just for such emergencies. Works great.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective...

JWB

[Delta-3]

For one gun, I'll stick with a carbine like an AK or AR, or a modern battle rifle like FAL, HK, or M1A.

Except for a limited number of "new" weapons of late, (which they are just refinements to existing weapons) nothing new has come along since the caseless ammo G11 (I think it was called).
All the ones you mentioned are for the most part 1950's technology. They've only got roughly 15 years on the M1 & really all they offer over it are firepower.
It's not really what you use but your proficiency with it. You already know a man proficient with a Garand can hold his own against another armed with any other "battle rifle".

[gunplumber]

Originally posted by jbrooks
But I keep an old-fashioned plug-in-the-wall junker phone just for such emergencies. Works great

Actually, I do to - an AT&T slimline. The point is, however, remains that the garand was designed to fight World War I again. There are better choices for a "do as many tasks as possible rifle".

[gunplumber]

All the ones you mentioned are for the most part 1950's technology. They've only got roughly 15 years on the M1 & really all they offer over it are firepower.

It was an incredible 15 years. The greatest industrialized slaughter in the history of the world. We went from biplanes to the jet and the atomic bomb. It is a lot more than just firepower. It is the transition from a target rifle to a battle rifle.

You already know a man proficient with a Garand can hold his own against another armed with any other "battle rifle".

This is a silly statement. Two people of equal skill, the one with a modern platform, equipped with enhanced optics and 3 times the firepower is at a decided advantage in almost all situations.

A greater advantage than the Garand had over the WWI bolt actions of the Germans and Japanese.

[STGThndr]

When I was quite young I was mightily impressed by the 98k my Dad had. I believed then that it was a gun that I could take to hell and back. At that point in time the 16 was still in the future and the AK ruled the battlefield but we didnt know that yet either. The point of this thread I think, is that a trained rifleman can do a lot of damage with his chosen weapon- for a time.

The Human Brain, the most powerful offensive/defensive weapon known to man. Don't leave the trees without it!

[rhill]

I've got a '53 Springfield with an Amega Ranges scout scope mount and a Nikon 2.5-8 EER scopre on it.

I really like going to the 300 yard range and popping party balloons stapled up to the target frames with it.

A man with a Garand who knows how to use it properly is quite the force to be reckoned with.

But then again, a man who knows how to properly use sling technique, who understands wind effects, how to account for shooting up or down a steep angle, and the correct methods to see sight picture, control breathing, stabilize the hold and follow through can be a force with just about any modern centerfire rifle.

[kayakpirate]

I remember a story,I think it was in "Coopers Corner" in G&A.
Happened in the Philipines around '78 or so.
Plantation security guard,armed with an M1 got into a prolonged
gunbattle when some of the local terrorists attacked the property.
Against a number marauders armed with AK's,SKS's and .30 carbines,
he took out over 12 of the them before getting flanked and killed.
Says more about tactics than ammo capacity,but I'm sure more of both would have been better for him.