Going nuts head tramming

mountainman · March 17, 2011, 20:09

Thats it. I just about blew a fuse tramming my mill head. 2 hours after losing my mind seeing how my Starrett last word can't repeat teh same number for both sides. I bought mysefl a tram gauge. You machinist out there know what I am talking about. How many of you folks that are machinist just broke down and bought one? Some times I can tram with a last word indicator in 30 minutes and then like today I get nowhere after 2 hrs. I know I know, one side is for raising or lowering the knee and teh other is for adjustment and never adjust for half the error but rather for only 1/3 the error. I guess I am not an old timer or good enough to be one.

akajun · March 17, 2011, 22:03

Granted all I have is a little bechtop mill, I have found this guy's video's very helpfull

Heres one on indicating the vice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfANyiS8Hs4

He's also got several on tramming the mill itself, and using the tramming head as well.

Dave1 · March 17, 2011, 22:16

Mountain man,
Man, 2 hrs???? You need more practice mister, it should be a 5 to 10 min job even if the head was tipped at 45 deg.
Once you figure it out it will be easy, first of all, don't use an indicol and a last word, that will drive you insane. I read you sprung for one of those fancy squaring thingy's, well, never used one, probably never will either. In any case, I use a bar I made with a tenth dial indicator that swings to the max table width in the y axis, guessing about 4-4.5 from the center of the pin to the center of the indicator.
Now, I start with squaring in the x first, with the quill out at max travel, get it as close as you can but don't try for dead nuts, getting it to .0005 is close enough and try to keep everything square to the axis, snug the bolts, now do the y, front to back, keep it square also, figure 4 to 1 ratio front to back, if the indicator reading is .005 and the back is .001 from zero, raising/lowering it in the front .004 will get it pretty dam close. Snug bolts, reckeck in the x direction, dead blow hammer to the head for fine tuning will get it super close, really tighten the bolts, recheck the y, if it's off, use the screw to push/pull the head, remember 4 to 1,,,, really tighten the bolts again. DONE!
By moving the quill down all the way you've maximized the possible error in the head. I use a wide parallel under the indicator and never lift it from the table, wring it in then slide it from side to side, front to back, this will also let you know if there are any dents/nicks in the table surface also.

Hope this helps,
Dave

yovinny · March 18, 2011, 07:59

What Dave said, 5 min job.

The '0' marking on you'r mill should get you very close, like within .05-.075 in a 8-10" sweep.
From there it's better to have you'r nuts snuged and use a big rubber mallet for side-side or screw loadingfor front-back, before you fully tighten and re-check.
Make sure you'r knee clamps are locked down, or you'll very possibily be chasing you'r tail.
Remember, most times theirs not much need to get it 'perfect' as for lots of cuts you may well want a little draft, like .003 in 10".
You'll get a better cut, finish and tool life without any back drag.

Cheers, YV

mountainman · March 18, 2011, 11:06

MY 0 marking on the BP clone is like 1 degree off. BTW, Dave, If you have a well used table or vice then don't rely on two different spots to sweep at the same height ( parts sometime fall on the table, things settle/warp etc etc.). Thats why I move the table and always sweep off the same point established with a sharpie marker. Started back at it this morning and it took 40 minutes. Dave about 5-10 minutes. I have worked around all sorts of machinists, some even being 50 year machinists and the best I have seen is 25 minutes and that is with the vice off the table ( don't know why that is easier, it just is). But I do think that Last word indicator is not the best for tramming. Don't make sense but go figure.

yovinny · March 18, 2011, 11:55

IMHO,
If you'r table and vice are that much of a mess, theirs not much use getting that critical.
As in making it tram perfect is useless if you'r part is crooked on the table or in the vise.
Get yourself a big mill file and run it flat over the table to knock down all the highs, then get a small (9x12) surface plate, place it on the table and tram off that surface.

Edited; Those small surface plates are available for like $35. + shipping.

mountainman · March 20, 2011, 15:27

will do. I was thinking somewhere about those lines in terms of using ground plate on the vise. I just wasn't thinking of hitting it with a mill file ( very lightly of course).

yovinny · March 21, 2011, 07:15

Yea, I'd draw file it first, just to knock down any raised highs.
Small spots or rust might be better served with emery paper around a solid 1-2-3 block and used with some oil.
Big file, layed flat on the table at about 30-45* angle across you'r X axis.
I like to change the angle back and forth, as in +30* and then -30* and draw it in line with X axis travel.
Clear as mud

Cheers, YV

March 17, 2011, 20:09	#1
mountainman Registered FALaholic #: 14702 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Deltona FL Posts: 3,207	Going nuts head tramming Thats it. I just about blew a fuse tramming my mill head. 2 hours after losing my mind seeing how my Starrett last word can't repeat teh same number for both sides. I bought mysefl a tram gauge. You machinist out there know what I am talking about. How many of you folks that are machinist just broke down and bought one? Some times I can tram with a last word indicator in 30 minutes and then like today I get nowhere after 2 hrs. I know I know, one side is for raising or lowering the knee and teh other is for adjustment and never adjust for half the error but rather for only 1/3 the error. I guess I am not an old timer or good enough to be one.

March 17, 2011, 22:16	#3
Dave1 Registered FALaholic #: 156 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: First left past nowhere in MN Posts: 1,292	Mountain man, Man, 2 hrs???? You need more practice mister, it should be a 5 to 10 min job even if the head was tipped at 45 deg. Once you figure it out it will be easy, first of all, don't use an indicol and a last word, that will drive you insane. I read you sprung for one of those fancy squaring thingy's, well, never used one, probably never will either. In any case, I use a bar I made with a tenth dial indicator that swings to the max table width in the y axis, guessing about 4-4.5 from the center of the pin to the center of the indicator. Now, I start with squaring in the x first, with the quill out at max travel, get it as close as you can but don't try for dead nuts, getting it to .0005 is close enough and try to keep everything square to the axis, snug the bolts, now do the y, front to back, keep it square also, figure 4 to 1 ratio front to back, if the indicator reading is .005 and the back is .001 from zero, raising/lowering it in the front .004 will get it pretty dam close. Snug bolts, reckeck in the x direction, dead blow hammer to the head for fine tuning will get it super close, really tighten the bolts, recheck the y, if it's off, use the screw to push/pull the head, remember 4 to 1,,,, really tighten the bolts again. DONE! By moving the quill down all the way you've maximized the possible error in the head. I use a wide parallel under the indicator and never lift it from the table, wring it in then slide it from side to side, front to back, this will also let you know if there are any dents/nicks in the table surface also. Hope this helps, Dave __________________ Barack Obama, the best gun salesman since Bill Clinton NRA Life Member, SAF Defender Club, Life Member

March 18, 2011, 11:55	#6
yovinny Registered FALaholic #: 7679 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky Posts: 3,414	IMHO, If you'r table and vice are that much of a mess, theirs not much use getting that critical. As in making it tram perfect is useless if you'r part is crooked on the table or in the vise. Get yourself a big mill file and run it flat over the table to knock down all the highs, then get a small (9x12) surface plate, place it on the table and tram off that surface. Edited; Those small surface plates are available for like $35. + shipping. Last edited by yovinny; March 18, 2011 at 12:01.

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March 17, 2011, 22:03	#2
akajun Registered FALaholic #: 22516 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: louisiana Posts: 1,230	Granted all I have is a little bechtop mill, I have found this guy's video's very helpfull Heres one on indicating the vice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfANyiS8Hs4 He's also got several on tramming the mill itself, and using the tramming head as well.

March 18, 2011, 07:59	#4
yovinny Registered FALaholic #: 7679 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky Posts: 3,414	What Dave said, 5 min job. The '0' marking on you'r mill should get you very close, like within .05-.075 in a 8-10" sweep. From there it's better to have you'r nuts snuged and use a big rubber mallet for side-side or screw loadingfor front-back, before you fully tighten and re-check. Make sure you'r knee clamps are locked down, or you'll very possibily be chasing you'r tail. Remember, most times theirs not much need to get it 'perfect' as for lots of cuts you may well want a little draft, like .003 in 10". You'll get a better cut, finish and tool life without any back drag. Cheers, YV

March 18, 2011, 11:06	#5
mountainman Registered FALaholic #: 14702 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Deltona FL Posts: 3,207	MY 0 marking on the BP clone is like 1 degree off. BTW, Dave, If you have a well used table or vice then don't rely on two different spots to sweep at the same height ( parts sometime fall on the table, things settle/warp etc etc.). Thats why I move the table and always sweep off the same point established with a sharpie marker. Started back at it this morning and it took 40 minutes. Dave about 5-10 minutes. I have worked around all sorts of machinists, some even being 50 year machinists and the best I have seen is 25 minutes and that is with the vice off the table ( don't know why that is easier, it just is). But I do think that Last word indicator is not the best for tramming. Don't make sense but go figure.

March 20, 2011, 15:27	#7
mountainman Registered FALaholic #: 14702 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Deltona FL Posts: 3,207	will do. I was thinking somewhere about those lines in terms of using ground plate on the vise. I just wasn't thinking of hitting it with a mill file ( very lightly of course).

March 21, 2011, 07:15	#8
yovinny Registered FALaholic #: 7679 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky Posts: 3,414	Yea, I'd draw file it first, just to knock down any raised highs. Small spots or rust might be better served with emery paper around a solid 1-2-3 block and used with some oil. Big file, layed flat on the table at about 30-45* angle across you'r X axis. I like to change the angle back and forth, as in +30* and then -30* and draw it in line with X axis travel. Clear as mud Cheers, YV