Light bullets through an OSW

RGraff · February 22, 2011, 09:10

This was sort of a sub-topic on another thread I started and it was recommended this part be taken here.

My agency is unable to supply practice ammunition so myself and other members of our team burn through a substantial supply of reloads throughout the year. Currently, I am interested in putting together loads that will duplicate Hornady's 110 grain TAP round for the .308 as this is the round authorized for entry purposes in the OSW I will carry shortly (recent purchase). It's been brought to my attention that performance and reliability might suffer in the 11" barrel of my rifle so I thought I'd pose a question here regarding load data.

Do any of you have experience running light bullets through short barrels? Could you share any load data you might have? In the near future I will consider mounting a can on this rifle and I know that will require different loads. What I need right now is something specifically for the 110 Hornady Vmax.

Thanks.

ammolab · February 22, 2011, 12:38

Would you need a "special short barrel load" to duplicate the Hornady 110gr TAP....I don't think that load was developed for short barrels, right?

Try any decent spec. load for 110gr bullets in .308 but select only from the faster burning powders listed in the manual.

RGraff · February 22, 2011, 13:02

"Would you need a "special short barrel load" to duplicate the Hornady 110gr TAP....I don't think that load was developed for short barrels, right?"

I would be surprised if it was.

To be honest...I haven't even tried running the 110 TAP through this to know if it will work. My hope in posting this was to come across someone who has and find out if it is a viable option. I'm willing to make reasonable accommodations/modifications to the rifle to make it work...ie: Noveske KX3 or similar.

The use of TAP ammunition is just a mandate we have in our department for those wishing to run .308's for entry purposes. I understand there may be "better" options out there for me in terms of calibers but I am a .308 fan first for many reasons. The OSW platform addresses other issues I'm considering and have to solve. I'm hoping to make this happen.

I appreciate the input so far.

yovinny · February 22, 2011, 15:45

Just curious, who's doing you'r depts entry training ?

RGraff · February 22, 2011, 16:01

Quote:

Originally posted by yovinny
Just curious, who's doing you'r depts entry training ?

Several qualified folks. Why do you ask?

Topbanana · February 22, 2011, 16:26

What type of threats to do you envision facing with the OSW?

**riffraff2** · February 22, 2011, 17:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Topbanana
What type of threats to do you envision facing with the OSW?

+1

RGraff · February 22, 2011, 17:03

My hope is that I'll be able to field the OSW as a dual purpose piece. Entry will be one assignment, the other will be "short range" perimeter. When not working with the entry team the rifle will wear a low power optic.

I'm just looking for advice guys. I understand there are better "mission specific" options but this platform seems to warrant a closer look. I looked to the FAL design for its reliability and the .308 for better barrier penetration performance than the different .223 variants currently available to us. Maybe the OSW isn't the answer. That's why I'm asking.

Topbanana · February 22, 2011, 17:10

Okay, also, what type of environment will the item be deployed?

RGraff · February 22, 2011, 17:27

We're a county agency but support local pd's and state police at times as well. Environs range from rural to urban, high desert to wooded to agricultural in four season weather.

My original question was if someone had a load comparable to the Hornady 110 grain TAP offering that they wouldn't mind sharing and if there were folks with experience running that type of load through the OSW. I appreciate your wanting as much information as possible before you answer but if I need to take my questions elsewhere please let me know. I'm not trying to be difficult and don't know that this is the best platform for me. Just looking for help in trying to figure this out.

yovinny · February 23, 2011, 07:50

Quote:

Originally posted by RGraff

Several qualified folks. Why do you ask?

Like I said, I'm just curious, I've never heard anything like this before.

I'm not an LEO or anything even close, but the manufacturer of explosives and distructive devices, specializing in breaching and door entry charges.
So I've worked and spoke with breachers and entry teams,,,lets just say from all walks and all over.

RGraff · February 23, 2011, 14:25

When you say you haven't heard of this before I'm going to assume you're referring to the use of .308 for entry. At the risk of charging yet another useless internet debate I'll say the following:

I'll admit the .223 is far and away the most popular choice amongst domestic law enforcement for that role. The question as to whether or not it's the most effective or "best" choice for the spectrum of tasks we're called on to perform would no doubt produce a debate worthy of several internet pages.

My agency is a relatively small one and, like so many across the country, our finances are limited. We are given the latitude of purchasing our own weapons as long as they meet department protocol and policy guidelines. That said, the .308 win., firing the 110 gr. TAP round, falls within those guidelines and is authorized. In my role as a cross-trained team member, I felt the .308 OSW met my needs and was able to fill the "dual role" I am tasked with, in addition to the heavy scoped bolt rifle I currently run. As one of my first options to weigh, I thought the OSW gave me the compact size useful in an entry capacity while providing the increased barrier penetrating capabilities of the .308 I might require when on a relative short range perimeter. As I continue to research I am finding that perhaps the OSW is not the optimal platform for my needs.

My search has in essence just started so maybe I'll find a better option yet. So far I've only heard from a couple people who claim to have owned an OSW personally...none relative to this post. I hope to hear from more.

**millersm99** · February 23, 2011, 15:17

It's hard to imagine what kind of flash there would be shooting .308 from an 11" barrel. Especially in the confines of whatever place you might be 'entering'. At the very least the shooter's night vision would be lost after the first round.

Not the best choice methinks.

ammolab · February 23, 2011, 16:46

Quote:

Originally posted by millersm99
It's hard to imagine what kind of flash there would be shooting .308 from an 11" barrel. Especially in the confines of whatever place you might be 'entering'. At the very least the shooter's night vision would be lost after the first round.

Not the best choice methinks.

RGraf: Have you shot the weapon with the TAP load? Would the flash/blast be tollerable to you and your team in a tight entry situation?

What is up with "no practice ammuntion"? Your dept. can not expect you to be proficient with a weapon that you have "no practice" with... Sounds like a HUGE liability problem for them down the road.

RGraff · February 23, 2011, 17:20

I haven't ammolab. I had actually just got off the phone with a buddy who's got some to let me try. Sort of stupid on my part...should have done it right off. Being short gun ignorant though I didn't even consider it being a problem until I started visiting with you folks.

The practice ammo issue is just part of the deal. We volunteer for these slots and understood what's being asked of us when we signed up. I can't/won't complain about it. Those of us who are on the teams are dedicated and train regularly. We pony up the funds, get together on a regular basis and make sure everyone's got what they need...rifle, pistol and shotgun. Really not an issue because we're all shooters anyway. Even our breaching tools are mostly "homemade". Our guys are dedicated and do a good job. Have to. The counties to the north and south of us rely on us too as they're even more broke than we are (or so they tell us).

RGraff · February 23, 2011, 17:44

As to the muzzle flash issue...short barreled .223s make a bunch of noise and flash too and things get pretty busy in the confines of a small house or trailer.

Don't know that I could tell the difference between .223, .308, 12 ga., .45 or whatever when bad guy is shooting back.

yovinny · February 24, 2011, 07:15

Quote:

Originally posted by RGraff
When you say you haven't heard of this before I'm going to assume you're referring to the use of .308 for entry.

Yes.
Mostly what I hear is a need for less penetration, less power, less chance of collateral injury and the resulting court cases and loss of money.
Even a need for something better than the current frangable rounds on the market, that are usually used.
Even the hatten shotgun entery round, which is supost to fragment and not penetrate beyond the door it's being used on, has a rep for injuring a whole bunch of people.

M1950 · February 24, 2011, 10:52

Unable to provide practice ammo? And you support other depts?

Doesn't sound right.

RGraff · February 24, 2011, 11:17

Not sure what "right" would be, but it is what it is. If I don't like it I can quit. Like I said, we're shooters with a good bunch of equipment between us. Just hasn't been an issue other than the expense. We do this because we want to. Not perfect by any stretch but it works for us.

Just the dynamics of small agencies in this day and age. I'm confident we're not alone. We do what we can, when we can. When another agency calls for help we go. We don't have the luxury of saying we can't afford it. State Police has a team but they take time to get here and have a very strict set of guidelines and parameters to follow before they will even commit. Quite a bureaucracy there. If someone is asking for help there's a pretty good reason for it and they generally need it right now.

chrsdwns · March 24, 2011, 15:33

The link below gives some info on the development of the new Mk 319 7.62 NATO round developed for the SCAR-H short barrel carbine.

The bullet is a 130 grain projectile so it's a bit bigger than the TAP round but the info might be helpful. They selected a powder optimized for a short barrel, 7.62 carbine to optimize velocity and flash signature among other things.

It's worth a look and perhaps a follow up.

Palmetto armory has MK 319 in stock so perhaps buying a box or two for forensic deconstruction and testing would be a good place to start for building up your loads.

Good luck -

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantr...ioniii8524.pdf

RGraff · April 03, 2011, 10:17

Thanks for the link chrsdwns. Appreciate it.

February 22, 2011, 09:10	#1
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	Light bullets through an OSW This was sort of a sub-topic on another thread I started and it was recommended this part be taken here. My agency is unable to supply practice ammunition so myself and other members of our team burn through a substantial supply of reloads throughout the year. Currently, I am interested in putting together loads that will duplicate Hornady's 110 grain TAP round for the .308 as this is the round authorized for entry purposes in the OSW I will carry shortly (recent purchase). It's been brought to my attention that performance and reliability might suffer in the 11" barrel of my rifle so I thought I'd pose a question here regarding load data. Do any of you have experience running light bullets through short barrels? Could you share any load data you might have? In the near future I will consider mounting a can on this rifle and I know that will require different loads. What I need right now is something specifically for the 110 Hornady Vmax. Thanks. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 22, 2011, 13:02	#3
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	"Would you need a "special short barrel load" to duplicate the Hornady 110gr TAP....I don't think that load was developed for short barrels, right?" I would be surprised if it was. To be honest...I haven't even tried running the 110 TAP through this to know if it will work. My hope in posting this was to come across someone who has and find out if it is a viable option. I'm willing to make reasonable accommodations/modifications to the rifle to make it work...ie: Noveske KX3 or similar. The use of TAP ammunition is just a mandate we have in our department for those wishing to run .308's for entry purposes. I understand there may be "better" options out there for me in terms of calibers but I am a .308 fan first for many reasons. The OSW platform addresses other issues I'm considering and have to solve. I'm hoping to make this happen. I appreciate the input so far. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 22, 2011, 16:26	#6
Topbanana Registered FALaholic #: 20443 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Manhattan, KS Posts: 3,289	What type of threats to do you envision facing with the OSW? __________________ God created the Earth, Mauser drew the property lines.

February 22, 2011, 17:03	#8
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	My hope is that I'll be able to field the OSW as a dual purpose piece. Entry will be one assignment, the other will be "short range" perimeter. When not working with the entry team the rifle will wear a low power optic. I'm just looking for advice guys. I understand there are better "mission specific" options but this platform seems to warrant a closer look. I looked to the FAL design for its reliability and the .308 for better barrier penetration performance than the different .223 variants currently available to us. Maybe the OSW isn't the answer. That's why I'm asking. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 22, 2011, 17:10	#9
Topbanana Registered FALaholic #: 20443 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Manhattan, KS Posts: 3,289	Okay, also, what type of environment will the item be deployed? __________________ God created the Earth, Mauser drew the property lines.

February 22, 2011, 12:38	#2
ammolab Registered FALaholic #: 10923 Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,692	Would you need a "special short barrel load" to duplicate the Hornady 110gr TAP....I don't think that load was developed for short barrels, right? Try any decent spec. load for 110gr bullets in .308 but select only from the faster burning powders listed in the manual.

February 22, 2011, 15:45	#4
yovinny Registered FALaholic #: 7679 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky Posts: 3,414	Just curious, who's doing you'r depts entry training ?

February 22, 2011, 17:27	#10
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	We're a county agency but support local pd's and state police at times as well. Environs range from rural to urban, high desert to wooded to agricultural in four season weather. My original question was if someone had a load comparable to the Hornady 110 grain TAP offering that they wouldn't mind sharing and if there were folks with experience running that type of load through the OSW. I appreciate your wanting as much information as possible before you answer but if I need to take my questions elsewhere please let me know. I'm not trying to be difficult and don't know that this is the best platform for me. Just looking for help in trying to figure this out. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 23, 2011, 14:25	#12
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	When you say you haven't heard of this before I'm going to assume you're referring to the use of .308 for entry. At the risk of charging yet another useless internet debate I'll say the following: I'll admit the .223 is far and away the most popular choice amongst domestic law enforcement for that role. The question as to whether or not it's the most effective or "best" choice for the spectrum of tasks we're called on to perform would no doubt produce a debate worthy of several internet pages. My agency is a relatively small one and, like so many across the country, our finances are limited. We are given the latitude of purchasing our own weapons as long as they meet department protocol and policy guidelines. That said, the .308 win., firing the 110 gr. TAP round, falls within those guidelines and is authorized. In my role as a cross-trained team member, I felt the .308 OSW met my needs and was able to fill the "dual role" I am tasked with, in addition to the heavy scoped bolt rifle I currently run. As one of my first options to weigh, I thought the OSW gave me the compact size useful in an entry capacity while providing the increased barrier penetrating capabilities of the .308 I might require when on a relative short range perimeter. As I continue to research I am finding that perhaps the OSW is not the optimal platform for my needs. My search has in essence just started so maybe I'll find a better option yet. So far I've only heard from a couple people who claim to have owned an OSW personally...none relative to this post. I hope to hear from more. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 23, 2011, 15:17	#13
millersm99 Grateful Conservative Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 13800 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 727	It's hard to imagine what kind of flash there would be shooting .308 from an 11" barrel. Especially in the confines of whatever place you might be 'entering'. At the very least the shooter's night vision would be lost after the first round. Not the best choice methinks. __________________ Goodnight Chesty Puller, Sir.... 4/11 1st 155 Howitzer Battery 29 Palms Calif '79-'83

February 23, 2011, 17:20	#15
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	I haven't ammolab. I had actually just got off the phone with a buddy who's got some to let me try. Sort of stupid on my part...should have done it right off. Being short gun ignorant though I didn't even consider it being a problem until I started visiting with you folks. The practice ammo issue is just part of the deal. We volunteer for these slots and understood what's being asked of us when we signed up. I can't/won't complain about it. Those of us who are on the teams are dedicated and train regularly. We pony up the funds, get together on a regular basis and make sure everyone's got what they need...rifle, pistol and shotgun. Really not an issue because we're all shooters anyway. Even our breaching tools are mostly "homemade". Our guys are dedicated and do a good job. Have to. The counties to the north and south of us rely on us too as they're even more broke than we are (or so they tell us). __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 23, 2011, 17:44	#16
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	As to the muzzle flash issue...short barreled .223s make a bunch of noise and flash too and things get pretty busy in the confines of a small house or trailer. Don't know that I could tell the difference between .223, .308, 12 ga., .45 or whatever when bad guy is shooting back. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

February 24, 2011, 10:52	#18
M1950 Registered FALaholic #: 6777 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NH Posts: 290	Unable to provide practice ammo? And you support other depts? Doesn't sound right. __________________ Author of DEPLOYMENT, RECOVERY and OVERWATCH, a trilogy of Military fiction. www.johnmartinbooks.com

February 24, 2011, 11:17	#19
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	Not sure what "right" would be, but it is what it is. If I don't like it I can quit. Like I said, we're shooters with a good bunch of equipment between us. Just hasn't been an issue other than the expense. We do this because we want to. Not perfect by any stretch but it works for us. Just the dynamics of small agencies in this day and age. I'm confident we're not alone. We do what we can, when we can. When another agency calls for help we go. We don't have the luxury of saying we can't afford it. State Police has a team but they take time to get here and have a very strict set of guidelines and parameters to follow before they will even commit. Quite a bureaucracy there. If someone is asking for help there's a pretty good reason for it and they generally need it right now. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

March 24, 2011, 15:33	#20
chrsdwns Registered FALaholic #: 9846 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,587	The link below gives some info on the development of the new Mk 319 7.62 NATO round developed for the SCAR-H short barrel carbine. The bullet is a 130 grain projectile so it's a bit bigger than the TAP round but the info might be helpful. They selected a powder optimized for a short barrel, 7.62 carbine to optimize velocity and flash signature among other things. It's worth a look and perhaps a follow up. Palmetto armory has MK 319 in stock so perhaps buying a box or two for forensic deconstruction and testing would be a good place to start for building up your loads. Good luck - http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantr...ioniii8524.pdf __________________ "Those who do not move do not notice their chains. " -Rosa Luxumberg "There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." ~~Ludwig Von Mises ...when poets buy guns, tourist season is over................Walter R. Mead.

April 03, 2011, 10:17	#21
RGraff Registered FALaholic #: 27022 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 55	Thanks for the link chrsdwns. Appreciate it. __________________ "I hunt, therefore I am." James Hetfield

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