What Causes these Outliers?

[VonHayek]

My father has had his difficulties with a CAI imported gun on an Imbel receiver which you folks have kindly helped us out with. It turns out a terribly loose flash hider was the culprit. Groups tightened up. But unfortunately, this has not been the end.

First of all, it appears the barrel is out of timing. With the rear sight moved all the way over to the right, the groups are not quite on center.

My father's potential solution is to just put a scope on it. But the other problem has him just wanting to ditch the gun--it shoots ever 4 rounds or so in a nice 2" group at 50 yards, but then every 5th round or so flies WAY off-group. I mean a foot or more in a random direction.

We are shooting the DAG surplus that has been available on Ammoman.com for quite some time (which I have had no problem with in my gun) and are shooting this gun here http://picasaweb.google.com/BartRhea...-BwMbg5rv3cw#.

Any ideas?

[hagar]

Make sure that barrel is clean of copper (and that cupro nickel shyte from the Dag). Cleaning my L1A1 for weeks on end produced more copper than Phelps Dodge, but it shot 1 inch groups compared to the 6 inches before I cleaned it.

[MAINER]

"Any ideas?"

I would definately put hagar's idea to work. Get a good bore cleaner and be sure to follow the instructions. Some of the bore solvents allow you to soak them overnight, while others should not be left in the bore for more than 15 minutes or so. Butch's Bore Shine, Sweet's 7.62 and KG 12 are some of the most effective. I still use Hoppe's because I always have, but it's not as good for hard fouling.
Like hagar, I've also done daily bore cleanings for several weeks to get all the crud out.

After the bore cleaning, if you are still having fliers, try a different mag. You may be having erratic ignition so check the firing pin and spring. Clean the firing pin channel in the bolt. If the problem remains, I'd try a new hammer spring or assembly.

Get the timing corrected. There may be a Files member in your area that would help with this.

Consider sending the rifle to one of the FAL Smiths for a "tuneup". We have several on the Files that are really good.

Don't give up. Once they are running right, there's nothing like an FAL.

[VonHayek]

So the general consensus that I am getting is clean it well and shoot some new groups.

[tedg]

+1 on barrel timing. Sounds undertimed. Needs to be tightened.

[VonHayek]

Originally posted by tedg
+1 on barrel timing. Sounds undertimed. Needs to be tightened.

I know that this would cause the problem with the rear sight, but would it cause the stray bullets?

[W.E.G.]

What type of scope mount?

Who installed the mount?

Does the rifle throw fliers when the scope is not used?

[VonHayek]

Originally posted by W.E.G.
What type of scope mount?

Who installed the mount?

Does the rifle throw fliers when the scope is not used?

The rifle does not have a scope mount -- that is going to be my father's solution to the poor barrel timing if he can get it to group. The strays are occurring when firing with irons.

It would nifty if a thorough cleaning would fix the strays.

[def90]

Try the cleaning and maybe try removing the flash hider all together.. Someone made a post here showing the results of shooting with a number of different flash hiders and there seemed to be some that produced better results than others.

[LVMPDawg]

How many rounds are you firing in a sitting?
Are you using CLP or other oils in your barrel?

[VonHayek]

Originally posted by LVMPDawg
How many rounds are you firing in a sitting?
Are you using CLP or other oils in your barrel?

We were firing three-round groups, and probably a total of fifty rounds. Being my father's gun, I have no idea what he had in the barrel as far as oil goes.

However, he did just clean it and declared it to be one of the foulest guns he has ever run a rod down. Hopefully we will see some results at the range.

[Lee Carpentieri]

Try using SWEETS 7.62 bore cleaner. Then run some dry patches through the bore until all the green turnish is out and a patch comes out clean, Then use shooters choice and repeat the same as using the Sweets bore cleaner. As far as the barrel timing being out to lunch, If you don't have the proper tools to line the barrel up, Send it to a competent FAL gunsmith to get the problem corrected. As Far as a Oil or Lube, I use Tetra Gun Lube, One 8OZ bottle has lasted me 5 years on over 40 Rifles and 12 NFA weapons and 15 pistols. Even though I paid 14.00 retail for that last bottle Five years ago, I could leave all these weapons in my two gun safes for 10 months at a time without having to relube them at all. Those two gun safes are in a enclosed garage were the heat/humidity during our summer months exceeds 95 degrees and higher with the same amount of humidity.

[mutter]

Just asking, but since the rear sight was moved all the way to one side couldn't a loose rear sight or even a sloopy fit between the upper and lower receivers cause this?

Seems like a cheap and easy place to start.

[brunop]

Is the 'flier' the last shot in the mag?

Is the 'flier' happening when both you and dad shoot it?

Is the 'flier' happening in all the weather conditions? (wind)


I have seen countless shooters (myself included) get a good group going and then lift their heads to 'take a peek' at how great they are. And then the next shot is out of the group. I don't understand the 12" flier problem unless the head movement and or rifle movement is moving the loose rear sight around.

I suspect that the rear sight is loose. Lots of rifles have the totally worn but newly parked rear sights - especially if they came from one well-regarded ex vendor here...