Vortex flash hider for real?

bluesman · August 30, 2009, 22:54

I've seen the videos but want to know from people who have actually tried it.

Is the Smith Enterprises Vortex flash hider really as good as the videos make it out to be?

It's time for me to order one. Was gonna put on the Steyr but am interested in the Vortex after seeing the videos.

denny · August 31, 2009, 00:20

They work in the FAL !
Do not use any spacer/washer if you use one on the AR-15 or m-16.
The barrel crown should butt flush to the rear of the vortex inside. If not I believe the space between the inside rear of the vortex and the barrel will allow the gas to cause the bullet to yaw as it exits and sometimes push the slug up against the vortex prong causing a giant spark.. I had this happen with a 20 inch pencil barrel AR.
D.

bluesman · August 31, 2009, 06:51

Should I face the muzzle square with a slight chamfer for a crown? Right now it has an eleven degree crown.

**gunplumber** · August 31, 2009, 10:02

It works as well as any of the designs he copied. Why buy anything from that punk-assed bitch? Just use an StG58 stoll.

**preston1026** · August 31, 2009, 10:23

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber
It works as well as any of the designs he copied. Why buy anything from that punk-assed bitch? Just use an StG58 stoll.

punk-ass bitch? Is there a story behind this?

**gunplumber** · August 31, 2009, 11:01

Oh yeah - Ron Smith is a real punk-assed bitch. He (actually his prostitute wife) fraudulently obtained a patent and, unable to compete on merit in the industry, abuses the legal system to bankrupt competitors - using the term instead of the principle, hoping nobody notices his patent is patently (pun intended) unsustainable. Then deluging them with expensive legal demands - but offering a "settlement" of them not competing. For some reason, he's not taken on HK - maybe because their pockets are deeper than his.

He subpoenaed me because I took a stoll flash and stuck it on a SOCOM II and some gun magazine had a picture of it and called it a "vortex."

I dutifully responded to his subpoena and in a couple pages completely vaporized his claim to the term Vortex (which was actually "invented" by Tim LeFrance, as a self-evident "name" for the vortex principle flash hider) by showing it was a common industry term for over a hundred years and there were dozens and dozens of firearms using 3,4, and 5 prong "vortex" flash hiders before he was born.

So while his prostitute wife Somners was lying on her back being serviced by some sweaty beast (Ron brags about his wife being a whore, I don't understand why) - she decided that the energy of the attached spherical vortex propagating at the velocity of the projectile is
Ev ≈ 5π b3 ρ0 v2
28

where:
b = vortex diameter
ρ0 = air density
v = projectile velocity.

Or maybe that was Lamb's 1945 work on Hydrodynamics applied to Subsonic projectile flight noise.

kmurphy · August 31, 2009, 11:09

Dang

270Handiman · August 31, 2009, 11:50

I love this place! This is information you won't find just anywhere!

By the way, member Moses makes some nice aftermarket flash hiders you might take a look at.

270

**preston1026** · August 31, 2009, 12:56

so did someone else make the design and then it was stole because of the name vortex?

Very true, you get some interesting info from the files!

**gunplumber** · August 31, 2009, 13:00

No - ron just took an existing idea and (Somners) patented it - they lied in their patent application and it wasn't caught at that time. But they harass people with the NAME - which is like copyrighting the word "round" as a name for a tire.

ggiilliiee · August 31, 2009, 13:11

hell there both just hotdog cookers ..whats the big deal ..

**preston1026** · August 31, 2009, 13:18

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber
No - ron just took an existing idea and (Somners) patented it - they lied in their patent application and it wasn't caught at that time. But they harass people with the NAME - which is like copyrighting the word "round" as a name for a tire.

understood, thanks for clarification

**StG58Freak** · August 31, 2009, 17:21

As another person stated above, Member moses makes and sells some fine Flash Suppressors.

Give him your money before some bum. When i buy FAL parts it's either from Members here or from Members that have their own web site like...
Gun Parts Guy, GunThings etc. etc.

**gunplumber** · August 31, 2009, 18:09

And the Phantoms work very well too.

BTW, I am NOT saying the SAI Vortex doesn't perform - just that I will not support Ron's underhanded way of seizing market share.

Brad/gunthings.com · September 01, 2009, 14:21

Mark

Tell us about HK. What do they make that Ron would sue for? Is it a flash hider?

Brad

**gunplumber** · September 01, 2009, 14:25

G36k flash hider.

Prototype Services · September 01, 2009, 14:37

How is that any different than the duckbill and 3-prong M-16 FHs?

Did he try to sue about them too?

**gunplumber** · September 01, 2009, 14:59

Those are points I brought up in my response to his subpoena, with a copy to the defendant. There is also, to name a few:

c. 1936 US 1918A2 (5 prong)
c. 1943 US M1D Garand (5 prong)
c. 1955 Argentina FAL (3 prong)
c. 1958 Peru FAL (3-prong)
c. 1958 Austria FAL (4 prong)
c. 1960 Israel FAL (3-prong)
c. 1960 Finland Valmet (3-prong)
c. 1960 US AR-16 (3-prong)
c. 1962? US AR-15/XM-15/M16 (3-prong, 2+ styles)
c. 1970 US Mk19 Mod3 (4 prong)
c. 1970 UK Sterling AR-18 (3-prong)
c. 1975 US M2 (Air Version, M85 tank version, M85C ground version) (5 prong)
c. 1975 Japan Type 62 (3-4 prong)
c. 1976 Spain Spanish CETME Modelo L & LC (3 prong)
c. 1979 Austria Styer AUG (3 or 4 prong)
c. 1980 Germany HK 53 (4 prong)
c. 1980 US SA M1A-A1 (5 prong)

**J. Armstrong** · September 01, 2009, 15:01

The Vortex does indeed work very well ---- but so do many others. My experience has been with the STOLLs ( shorty variant preferred ), Vortex, the FN "Browning" and DSA clones, and Moses' Hurricanes and Venezuelans . All work superbly, my personal favorite is the Hurricane, YMMV. BTW, my opinion is that the above seem a bit more effective than the standard combo device although I would wager that for all practical purposes there is not much difference.

That G36K FH is very handsome and more importantly looks like it would be very effective

BTW, moses has done custom orders in the past, so you may be able to try out a personal theory or look at reasonable cost.

Brad/gunthings.com · September 01, 2009, 15:30

On the Smith Vortex the prongs twist, they are not straight. Is Ron suing people who make the straight type? There are many straight prong type flash hiders as you mentioned.

**gunplumber** · September 01, 2009, 16:16

No - he is suing people over using "vortex". Which is a description of the dynamics of the event, and therefore as absurd as trying to claim the rights to "round" or "square". The objective is economic extortion.

Brad/gunthings.com · September 01, 2009, 16:42

OK, I understand. He is suing over name and not over the exact characteristics of the design.

Varangian · September 01, 2009, 16:47

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber
Why buy anything from that punk-assed bitch?

There's as good a reason as any.

**gunplumber** · September 01, 2009, 17:17

No. I don't know how to make it more clear. He is using federal law suits over the name as a means to EXTORT people into non-competition. A federal court case has a $20k entrance fee, and goes up from there. His lawyer is his partner. The last thing Ron wants is for it to actually get in front of a jury.

If he had a legitimate copyright or patent claim, I'd support him.

Varangian · September 01, 2009, 17:21

I went to his website to drop some cash on your recommendation, but saw he's one of those ball washers that limit suppressor sales to USG or foreigners.

He can kiss my ass and bark at the hole.

Radio · September 01, 2009, 19:35

gunplumber's post above regarding comments about Smith's wife have been reported in view of specific policy outlined by myself previously in certain Files forums and now DEFINITIVELY by the Files Administrator.

ATTACKS ON FAMILY MEMBERS STOPS NOW!

1. The post by gunplumber PRECEDED the announcement by W.E.G.

2. Smith is NOT a Files Member.

3. The comments were framed further in the post as originating from Smith himself.

4. I don't see a need for further splitting hairs. Exercise good judgment.

--Radio

**gunplumber** · September 01, 2009, 20:07

I am not "calling" Ron Smith's "wife" a prostitute as a meaningless ad hominem.

I am reporting that Ron Smith has bragged(!) about his "wife" Sonja Somners having been a prostitute in the literal sense - that is, exchanging sex for money.

Perhaps in his cultural stratus, this is a badge of honor and not of shame.

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/sonja001.jpg

It is relevant because the profession of prostitution is not often associated with advanced thermodynamics. One has to wonder what it is about her "work" that would inspire her to design and patent something utilizing venturi & vortex principles, as well as a necessary understanding of Boyles & Charles laws.

jdluton · September 01, 2009, 20:19

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/sonja001.jpg

Blech!

**W.E.G.** · September 01, 2009, 20:32

At least she wasn't a lawyer.

Brad/gunthings.com · September 01, 2009, 20:45

Thats funny about the lawyer. See my website for links to the videos about the controversial Sonya and the Vortex flash hider. She is in one of the videos. I sell the flash hiders. They are expensive, but they work. The Stg-58 Stoll flash hiders also work well, as mentioned above, but they don't count as a US part.

**4markk** · September 01, 2009, 20:57

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber
I am not "calling" Ron Smith's "wife" a prostitute as a meaningless ad hominem.

I am reporting that Ron Smith has bragged(!) about his "wife" Sonja Somners having been a prostitute in the literal sense - that is, exchanging sex for money.

Perhaps in his cultural stratus, this is a badge of honor and not of shame.

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/sonja001.jpg

It is relevant because the profession of prostitution is not often associated with advanced thermodynamics. One has to wonder what it is about her "work" that would inspire her to design and patent something utilizing venturi & vortex principles, as well as a necessary understanding of Boyles & Charles laws.

I'd pay for that ........

Looks like a wonderful rifle.

ggiilliiee · September 01, 2009, 21:05

who cares ....its still just a piece of freekin pipe .like the combo stool .shove a good kilbasa on the end of it it will do the same thing as the whoretex except the kilbasa tastes better .....

http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiilliiee/BRAKEPICS/

see second pic ...ill bet a dollar the flash on mr brake is 5 times less the signature .....and has 1/4 inch recoil ...it actually does something ..!!!

**4markk** · September 01, 2009, 21:16

I checked out the site. Interesting that the majority shown were open ended suppressors. Although open-ended can perform better at flash suppression than closed-ended, they have other draw backs in a combat environment.

Also I didn't see any long tabbers in the photos. I'll have to check what's on my rifle (guess I never paid much attention to the make

)

**gunplumber** · September 01, 2009, 21:30

Open units with a baffle work well as brakes but tend to enhance flash. Closed units with a baffle work well as a flash suppressor & brake, but also can reduce sound, which ATF doesn't like.

**wheat** · September 01, 2009, 21:31

Ok, lets see. You are stranded on a desert island and you have a Sonya and a vortex. I'm just say'in. What if?

**4markk** · September 01, 2009, 21:41

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber
Open units with a baffle work well as brakes but tend to enhance flash. Closed units with a baffle work well as a flash suppressor & brake, but also can reduce sound, which ATF doesn't like.

My understanding is the flash suppression comes from the cooling of the gases as they exit. And that opened ended tend to do that better. But not enough to compensate for the other drawbacks in a combat environment.

Braking comes from redirecting the jets. Don't see how his devices brakes. Am I missing something?

My god had a Cutts. We would roast him about the antique, his response was, "its sentimental". A man of few words.

Dirt1042 · September 01, 2009, 22:49

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber
I am not "calling" Ron Smith's "wife" a prostitute as a meaningless ad hominem.

I am reporting that Ron Smith has bragged(!) about his "wife" Sonja Somners having been a prostitute in the literal sense - that is, exchanging sex for money.

Perhaps in his cultural stratus, this is a badge of honor and not of shame.

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/sonja001.jpg

It is relevant because the profession of prostitution is not often associated with advanced thermodynamics. One has to wonder what it is about her "work" that would inspire her to design and patent something utilizing venturi & vortex principles, as well as a necessary understanding of Boyles & Charles laws.

A former Bunny ranch employee?

**tedg** · September 02, 2009, 14:59

I know it's late in the thread, but how well does the ppng (F1?) do as flash
supressor, muzzle break?

**gunplumber** · September 02, 2009, 15:17

IIRC, the MOD determined it 90% effective relative to the full size.

**preston1026** · September 02, 2009, 17:47

could her jeans be any tighter?

**J. Armstrong** · September 02, 2009, 19:54

Quote:

Originally posted by gunplumber

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/sonja001.jpg

Nice BM59

nukemmc · September 02, 2009, 21:20

Quote:

Originally posted by J. Armstrong

Nice BM59

I believe it's an M14 mod they do.

**J. Armstrong** · September 02, 2009, 21:54

Quote:

Originally posted by nukemmc

I believe it's an M14 mod they do.

Hmmmm, I believe you are correct --- now what could have affected my vision so badly

ftierson · September 02, 2009, 22:55

Quote:

Originally posted by J. Armstrong
Hmmmm, I believe you are correct --- now what could have affected my vision so badly

I wonder...

Forrest

atp · September 02, 2009, 23:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad/gunthings.com
I sell the flash hiders. They are expensive, but they work. The Stg-58 Stoll flash hiders also work well, as mentioned above, but they don't count as a US part.

Brad, DSA sells a USA-made copy of the short Steyr flashider. Reasonably priced too, $18. I have one on a FAL. Unfortunately AFAIK they only make them in .30 caliber, not for .223.

atp · September 03, 2009, 00:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad/gunthings.com
On the Smith Vortex the prongs twist, they are not straight.

The early Vortex flash-hiders also had straight prongs, the curved prongs were a later innovation. As I recall, the point of the curved prongs is so that the muzzle blast tends to tighten the flash-hider onto the threads, thus ensuring that it never unintentionally comes loose, yet is still easy to remove. I've never heard of anyone actually testing that, but it seems like a reasonable idea.

gman · September 03, 2009, 00:17

My Moses unit works quite well.

Brian in MN · September 03, 2009, 00:30

IMHO open ended flash eliminators are a really bad idea. They act just like corn pickers. Every twig and leaf in the jungle wants to dive right down your bore.

atp · September 03, 2009, 00:36

The recent September 2009 issue of Small Arms Review has a decent "Flash Suppressor Evaluation" article, with photos. They tested several flash-hiders: A1, A2, Phantom A1, Phantom A2, recent 4-prong curve Vortex, early 4-prong straight Vortex, Vietnam-era 3-prong. Most were tested with several different barrel lengths from 7 to 20 inches, and two types of ammo.

As I recall, the 4-prong Vortex units, both old and new, were the best, showing no flash ever regardless of ammo or barrel length. The A1 designs were next best, then the A2 units, and finally bare muzzle was worst of all.

At the longer barrel lengths, 14.5" and up, the flashes from the A1 and A2 units were USUALLY very small, but not always, there was definitely shot-to-shot variability. But with the 7" barrel, the difference was HUGE, the Vortex still had no flash at all while all the A1 and A2 designs, Phantoms included, were flamethrowers.

Unfortunately, the early 3-prong flash-hider wasn't subject to all the tests, it's only shown in one series of photos with an 18" barrel, where its performance appears similar to the A1 or A2 units. So it's hard to say, but I'd bet that the 4-prong Steyr/Stoll or HK designs would work just as well as the Vortex. The old 3-prong AR-15 design doesn't seem to be as good, but it's not clear why that is, whether it's the number of prongs or something else.

Btw, years ago at a carbine class, a couple of Finnish cops were shooting their issue HK-53s, with the short 8.3 inch barrel and big long Vortex-style HK 4-prong flash-hider. The Finns were using the exact same cheap PMC .223 ball ammo I was, purchased at the same local gun shop. Difference was, their shortie HKs showed *NO* flash whatsoever, while my bare-muzzle 16" barrel AR-15 was a flamethrower. During night firing, it actually blinded me momentarily every time I pulled the trigger. Same ammo.

The four-prong HK/Vortex style flash-hiders really work.

**hedp** · September 03, 2009, 01:15

Quote:

Originally posted by atp
The recent September 2009 issue of Small Arms Review has a decent "Flash Suppressor Evaluation" article, with photos. They tested several flash-hiders: A1, A2, Phantom A1, Phantom A2, recent 4-prong curve Vortex, early 4-prong straight Vortex, Vietnam-era 3-prong. Most were tested with several different barrel lengths from 7 to 20 inches, and two types of ammo.

As I recall, the 4-prong Vortex units, both old and new, were the best, showing no flash ever regardless of ammo or barrel length. The A1 designs were next best, then the A2 units, and finally bare muzzle was worst of all.

At the longer barrel lengths, 14.5" and up, the flashes from the A1 and A2 units were USUALLY very small, but not always, there was definitely shot-to-shot variability. But with the 7" barrel, the difference was HUGE, the Vortex still had no flash at all while all the A1 and A2 designs, Phantoms included, were flamethrowers.

Unfortunately, the early 3-prong flash-hider wasn't subject to all the tests, it's only shown in one series of photos with an 18" barrel, where its performance appears similar to the A1 or A2 units. So it's hard to say, but I'd bet that the 4-prong Steyr/Stoll or HK designs would work just as well as the Vortex. The old 3-prong AR-15 design doesn't seem to be as good, but it's not clear why that is, whether it's the number of prongs or something else.

Btw, years ago at a carbine class, a couple of Finnish cops were shooting their issue HK-53s, with the short 8.3 inch barrel and big long Vortex-style HK 4-prong flash-hider. The Finns were using the exact same cheap PMC .223 ball ammo I was, purchased at the same local gun shop. Difference was, their shortie HKs showed *NO* flash whatsoever, while my bare-muzzle 16" barrel AR-15 was a flamethrower. During night firing, it actually blinded me momentarily every time I pulled the trigger. Same ammo.

The four-prong HK/Vortex style flash-hiders really work.

True, but the minor detail of the SAR reveiw was when they mentioned one of the ARs used was borrowed from Dave Fisher, maker of SEI / Fisher suppressors, which Smith Enterprises sells to the government as their brand on its M14 "upgrades," and Fisher sells as its brand to civvies.
Any objectivity that test had, went out the window when I read that little tidbit.

Anyone who ever thought blondie designed patent worthy products probably needs a reality check. I doubt she could design her way out of a wet paper sack.

August 30, 2009, 22:54	#1
bluesman Registered FALaholic #: 20656 Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 111	Vortex flash hider for real? I've seen the videos but want to know from people who have actually tried it. Is the Smith Enterprises Vortex flash hider really as good as the videos make it out to be? It's time for me to order one. Was gonna put on the Steyr but am interested in the Vortex after seeing the videos.

August 31, 2009, 00:20	#2
denny Registered FALaholic #: 24566 Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,869	vortex They work in the FAL ! Do not use any spacer/washer if you use one on the AR-15 or m-16. The barrel crown should butt flush to the rear of the vortex inside. If not I believe the space between the inside rear of the vortex and the barrel will allow the gas to cause the bullet to yaw as it exits and sometimes push the slug up against the vortex prong causing a giant spark.. I had this happen with a 20 inch pencil barrel AR. D.

August 31, 2009, 10:02	#4
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	It works as well as any of the designs he copied. Why buy anything from that punk-assed bitch? Just use an StG58 stoll. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

August 31, 2009, 11:01	#6
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	Oh yeah - Ron Smith is a real punk-assed bitch. He (actually his prostitute wife) fraudulently obtained a patent and, unable to compete on merit in the industry, abuses the legal system to bankrupt competitors - using the term instead of the principle, hoping nobody notices his patent is patently (pun intended) unsustainable. Then deluging them with expensive legal demands - but offering a "settlement" of them not competing. For some reason, he's not taken on HK - maybe because their pockets are deeper than his. He subpoenaed me because I took a stoll flash and stuck it on a SOCOM II and some gun magazine had a picture of it and called it a "vortex." I dutifully responded to his subpoena and in a couple pages completely vaporized his claim to the term Vortex (which was actually "invented" by Tim LeFrance, as a self-evident "name" for the vortex principle flash hider) by showing it was a common industry term for over a hundred years and there were dozens and dozens of firearms using 3,4, and 5 prong "vortex" flash hiders before he was born. So while his prostitute wife Somners was lying on her back being serviced by some sweaty beast (Ron brags about his wife being a whore, I don't understand why) - she decided that the energy of the attached spherical vortex propagating at the velocity of the projectile is Ev ≈ 5π b3 ρ0 v2 28 where: b = vortex diameter ρ0 = air density v = projectile velocity. Or maybe that was Lamb's 1945 work on Hydrodynamics applied to Subsonic projectile flight noise. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC Last edited by gunplumber; August 31, 2009 at 11:19.

August 31, 2009, 11:50	#8
270Handiman Registered FALaholic #: 30657 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 403	I love this place! This is information you won't find just anywhere! By the way, member Moses makes some nice aftermarket flash hiders you might take a look at. 270 __________________ "Rule #1 - You only have to do it right one time. How many tries it takes is up to you." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

August 31, 2009, 06:51	#3
bluesman Registered FALaholic #: 20656 Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 111	Should I face the muzzle square with a slight chamfer for a crown? Right now it has an eleven degree crown.

August 31, 2009, 11:09	#7
kmurphy Registered FALaholic #: 29121 Join Date: May 2007 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Posts: 780	Dang

August 31, 2009, 12:56	#9
preston1026 Go Seminoles! Contributor FALaholic #: 38005 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,663	so did someone else make the design and then it was stole because of the name vortex? Very true, you get some interesting info from the files!

August 31, 2009, 13:00	#10
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	No - ron just took an existing idea and (Somners) patented it - they lied in their patent application and it wasn't caught at that time. But they harass people with the NAME - which is like copyrighting the word "round" as a name for a tire. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

August 31, 2009, 13:11	#11
ggiilliiee banned again FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: orygun Posts: 4,838	hell there both just hotdog cookers ..whats the big deal ..

August 31, 2009, 17:21	#13
StG58Freak banned Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 21043 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Behind You. Posts: 2,332	As another person stated above, Member moses makes and sells some fine Flash Suppressors. Give him your money before some bum. When i buy FAL parts it's either from Members here or from Members that have their own web site like... Gun Parts Guy, GunThings etc. etc.

August 31, 2009, 18:09	#14
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	And the Phantoms work very well too. BTW, I am NOT saying the SAI Vortex doesn't perform - just that I will not support Ron's underhanded way of seizing market share. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 01, 2009, 14:21	#15
Brad/gunthings.com Vendor GunThings.com FALaholic #: 308 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Plymouth, MN, USA Posts: 843	Mark Tell us about HK. What do they make that Ron would sue for? Is it a flash hider? Brad __________________ FNFAL/L1A1 - Browning 1919 - AK47/AK74 - SMG - M1 - M14 - M16 Parts, kits, accessories, books & tools. See our website: http://GunThings.com

September 01, 2009, 14:25	#16
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	G36k flash hider. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 01, 2009, 14:37	#17
Prototype Services Registered FALaholic #: 3935 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Gainesville Georgia 30501 Posts: 2,067	How is that any different than the duckbill and 3-prong M-16 FHs? Did he try to sue about them too? __________________ ''Life's tough.....it's even tougher if you're stupid.'' ~ John Wayne

September 01, 2009, 14:59	#18
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	Those are points I brought up in my response to his subpoena, with a copy to the defendant. There is also, to name a few: c. 1936 US 1918A2 (5 prong) c. 1943 US M1D Garand (5 prong) c. 1955 Argentina FAL (3 prong) c. 1958 Peru FAL (3-prong) c. 1958 Austria FAL (4 prong) c. 1960 Israel FAL (3-prong) c. 1960 Finland Valmet (3-prong) c. 1960 US AR-16 (3-prong) c. 1962? US AR-15/XM-15/M16 (3-prong, 2+ styles) c. 1970 US Mk19 Mod3 (4 prong) c. 1970 UK Sterling AR-18 (3-prong) c. 1975 US M2 (Air Version, M85 tank version, M85C ground version) (5 prong) c. 1975 Japan Type 62 (3-4 prong) c. 1976 Spain Spanish CETME Modelo L & LC (3 prong) c. 1979 Austria Styer AUG (3 or 4 prong) c. 1980 Germany HK 53 (4 prong) c. 1980 US SA M1A-A1 (5 prong) __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 01, 2009, 15:01	#19
J. Armstrong Minister of Amusement Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 13629 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: SE Pa Posts: 8,498	The Vortex does indeed work very well ---- but so do many others. My experience has been with the STOLLs ( shorty variant preferred ), Vortex, the FN "Browning" and DSA clones, and Moses' Hurricanes and Venezuelans . All work superbly, my personal favorite is the Hurricane, YMMV. BTW, my opinion is that the above seem a bit more effective than the standard combo device although I would wager that for all practical purposes there is not much difference. That G36K FH is very handsome and more importantly looks like it would be very effective BTW, moses has done custom orders in the past, so you may be able to try out a personal theory or look at reasonable cost. __________________ "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools" Herbert Spenser "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

September 01, 2009, 15:30	#20
Brad/gunthings.com Vendor GunThings.com FALaholic #: 308 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Plymouth, MN, USA Posts: 843	On the Smith Vortex the prongs twist, they are not straight. Is Ron suing people who make the straight type? There are many straight prong type flash hiders as you mentioned. __________________ FNFAL/L1A1 - Browning 1919 - AK47/AK74 - SMG - M1 - M14 - M16 Parts, kits, accessories, books & tools. See our website: http://GunThings.com

September 01, 2009, 16:16	#21
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	No - he is suing people over using "vortex". Which is a description of the dynamics of the event, and therefore as absurd as trying to claim the rights to "round" or "square". The objective is economic extortion. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 01, 2009, 16:42	#22
Brad/gunthings.com Vendor GunThings.com FALaholic #: 308 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Plymouth, MN, USA Posts: 843	OK, I understand. He is suing over name and not over the exact characteristics of the design. __________________ FNFAL/L1A1 - Browning 1919 - AK47/AK74 - SMG - M1 - M14 - M16 Parts, kits, accessories, books & tools. See our website: http://GunThings.com

September 01, 2009, 17:17	#24
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	No. I don't know how to make it more clear. He is using federal law suits over the name as a means to EXTORT people into non-competition. A federal court case has a $20k entrance fee, and goes up from there. His lawyer is his partner. The last thing Ron wants is for it to actually get in front of a jury. If he had a legitimate copyright or patent claim, I'd support him. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 01, 2009, 17:21	#25
Varangian Registered FALaholic #: 33899 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: LBFM Central Posts: 745	I went to his website to drop some cash on your recommendation, but saw he's one of those ball washers that limit suppressor sales to USG or foreigners. He can kiss my ass and bark at the hole.

September 01, 2009, 19:35	#26
Radio Registered FALaholic #: 263 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Eastern Washington State Posts: 9,868	gunplumber's post above regarding comments about Smith's wife have been reported in view of specific policy outlined by myself previously in certain Files forums and now DEFINITIVELY by the Files Administrator. ATTACKS ON FAMILY MEMBERS STOPS NOW! 1. The post by gunplumber PRECEDED the announcement by W.E.G. 2. Smith is NOT a Files Member. 3. The comments were framed further in the post as originating from Smith himself. 4. I don't see a need for further splitting hairs. Exercise good judgment. --Radio __________________ Train Like You Fight: Second PLace is NOT an Option. --E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II* "You seem to fantasize about me a lot. Maybe you should tell your boyfriend? He could dress up like me or something." --*K.O.A.M.*, November 9th, 2009 "You're better off hoping she don't miss, it's quicker that way." --ce, December 15, 2009

September 01, 2009, 20:07	#27
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	I am not "calling" Ron Smith's "wife" a prostitute as a meaningless ad hominem. I am reporting that Ron Smith has bragged(!) about his "wife" Sonja Somners having been a prostitute in the literal sense - that is, exchanging sex for money. Perhaps in his cultural stratus, this is a badge of honor and not of shame. http://www.smithenterprise.com/images02/sonja001.jpg It is relevant because the profession of prostitution is not often associated with advanced thermodynamics. One has to wonder what it is about her "work" that would inspire her to design and patent something utilizing venturi & vortex principles, as well as a necessary understanding of Boyles & Charles laws. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC Last edited by gunplumber; September 01, 2009 at 20:37.

September 01, 2009, 20:32	#29
W.E.G. Administrator Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 1211 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 31,054	At least she wasn't a lawyer. __________________ . . . Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

September 01, 2009, 20:45	#30
Brad/gunthings.com Vendor GunThings.com FALaholic #: 308 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Plymouth, MN, USA Posts: 843	Thats funny about the lawyer. See my website for links to the videos about the controversial Sonya and the Vortex flash hider. She is in one of the videos. I sell the flash hiders. They are expensive, but they work. The Stg-58 Stoll flash hiders also work well, as mentioned above, but they don't count as a US part. __________________ FNFAL/L1A1 - Browning 1919 - AK47/AK74 - SMG - M1 - M14 - M16 Parts, kits, accessories, books & tools. See our website: http://GunThings.com

September 01, 2009, 21:05	#32
ggiilliiee banned again FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: orygun Posts: 4,838	who cares ....its still just a piece of freekin pipe .like the combo stool .shove a good kilbasa on the end of it it will do the same thing as the whoretex except the kilbasa tastes better ..... http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiilliiee/BRAKEPICS/ see second pic ...ill bet a dollar the flash on mr brake is 5 times less the signature .....and has 1/4 inch recoil ...it actually does something ..!!!

September 01, 2009, 21:16	#33
4markk Military Observer Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 31134 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 2,275	I checked out the site. Interesting that the majority shown were open ended suppressors. Although open-ended can perform better at flash suppression than closed-ended, they have other draw backs in a combat environment. Also I didn't see any long tabbers in the photos. I'll have to check what's on my rifle (guess I never paid much attention to the make ) __________________ ` ` The difference between the possible and the impossible is only in the degree of a man's will. Chinese Proverb “The worst thing about growing old is that other men stop seeing you as dangerous.” Act Of Valor

September 01, 2009, 21:30	#34
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	Open units with a baffle work well as brakes but tend to enhance flash. Closed units with a baffle work well as a flash suppressor & brake, but also can reduce sound, which ATF doesn't like. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 01, 2009, 21:31	#35
wheat Member Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 17371 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas (big place) Posts: 409	Sonya Ok, lets see. You are stranded on a desert island and you have a Sonya and a vortex. I'm just say'in. What if? __________________ Car guy gone FNuts.

September 02, 2009, 14:59	#38
tedg Senior Member Contributor FALaholic #: 37851 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Kansas city, Kansas Posts: 846	ppng I know it's late in the thread, but how well does the ppng (F1?) do as flash supressor, muzzle break?

September 02, 2009, 15:17	#39
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	IIRC, the MOD determined it 90% effective relative to the full size. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

September 02, 2009, 17:47	#40
preston1026 Go Seminoles! Contributor FALaholic #: 38005 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,663	could her jeans be any tighter?

September 03, 2009, 00:17	#47
gman Registered FALaholic #: 1176 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Great Frozen North Posts: 2,739	My Moses unit works quite well. __________________ ******************************** You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves... Better living through chemistry.

September 03, 2009, 00:30	#48
Brian in MN Registered FALaholic #: 289 Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 4,927	IMHO open ended flash eliminators are a really bad idea. They act just like corn pickers. Every twig and leaf in the jungle wants to dive right down your bore. __________________ Kalashnikov: The most successful point and click interface in the world.