.45 Self Defense

BSchroeder · January 22, 2009, 11:25

I know this question has been asked many times before, but I couldn't find much in my search. What do you recommend for my mew FN45? I picked up two boxes of 230 grain HydraShocks to tide me over, but want something more 'modern.'

Corbon DPX and Hornaday look good to me. What is the difference between Hornaday TAP and XTP? Is the TAP just an XTP bullet on top of better powder? I lean towards 230 grain bullets, but don't have much of a reason, other than the original 45 ACP ammo was 230 grains.

I want a few rounds of +P also. Looks like it's Hornaday or nothing if I want 230's.

Tuscan Raider · January 22, 2009, 12:05

All are good rounds. Feel safe with any one of those.
Buy a box of each and find out which one the pistol likes.

cpgor · January 22, 2009, 12:10

The Corbon DPX 185 grain tested out the best for my dept. the only reason we aren't using it is the cost. Instead we went to the new Federal HST in 230 grain.

BSchroeder · January 22, 2009, 13:02

Quote:

Originally posted by cpgor
The Corbon DPX 185 grain tested out the best for my dept...

Am I wrong for wanting only 230 grain?

cpgor · January 22, 2009, 13:28

Don't pigeon-hole yourself because that was the original weight, first off as Tuscan Raider said see which your gun likes best then set your criteria from there, expansion,penetration, retained weight, cost, etc...

jackj · January 22, 2009, 13:35

If I'm not remembering wrong, the Corbon ammo had the highest one shot stopping power stats in the Sanow research. Others may have equalled it, but nobody has developed a better product to the best of my knowledge. It had a (94%) rating if I remember correctly. Damn difficult to improve on that

Muggzy · January 22, 2009, 14:15

I would have to pick reliable and then accuracy. I am not positive 'bou this last statement but I don't if the bad guy could tell the difference between a Golden Saber, Cor Bon .........

cpd109 · January 22, 2009, 18:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Muggzy
I would have to pick reliable and then accuracy. I am not positive 'bou this last statement but I don't if the bad guy could tell the difference between a Golden Saber, Cor Bon .........

Muggzy has it pegged. A gun that won't shoot is worthless. I use ball 230 grain bullets becase they always work. Also, go shoot in an IPSC or IDPA matche to see the proof of your pudding. Good luck!

**W.E.G.** · January 22, 2009, 18:17

Self defense advice for the 1911?

I recommend a hat and eye protection.

jefferyc22 · January 25, 2009, 16:22

Can one still get Hornady .45 in +P?...............all the Hornady stuff I see in the store is not +P rated now.
I shot some of my Hornady in +P a few months age............VERY hot!

**BUFF** · January 25, 2009, 22:33

My department issues the Federal "Tactical Bonded" 230 grain JHP Plus-P to those of us who carry .45's. I have it in all my 1911's that get serious use.

In .45 ACP, Plus-P isn't much hotter than standard pressure ammo. There is only about 75-100 fps difference. We use Federal American Eagle red box 230 grain FMJ for most training and qualification, but we shoot up our carry ammo at least once a year and get fresh stuff. I can't tell much difference shooting both and they hit about the same spot out to 50 yards.

I have shot a lot of it through a stock Colt Series 80 Gov't Model and a lightweight stainless Commander. It feeds reliably in both.

Federal says it is one step up from the Hydra-Shock. I can testify that they work well on people in a serious social setting where crisis intervention is needed.

Any of the top three ammo makers' premium hollow point .45's work very well. I would be happy with the Winchester or Remington offerings if I couldn't get Federal.

chromestarhustler · January 26, 2009, 07:18

i have shot the reminington, winchester, hydra shocks corbons threw all my 1911s. all feed fine. as for one hit stopping power. do you plan on shooting the bad guy just once?

spatin · January 27, 2009, 21:39

Actually, I don't think I should have to even hit the bad guy once. Just one round from my .45 ACP mega-thunder gargantuan expander not-ball ammo, even close to the bad guy, should blow him up like in a cartoon, just like in Hollywood.

Really, don't we spend an awful lot of time developing "better" bullets for what is already a proven man-stopper even back in the time when all we had was 240 grain lead bullets? (I guess bullet makers just have to sell more bullets.)

Hell, I imagine a 240 grain RN lead bullet at 850 fps will stop just about the most determined, drugged out, and pissed off perp that I could imagine.

Anyone have any personal experience with this?

(Not with gelatin. I'm talking about drug crazed face on attacks.)

Sidney

jefferyc22 · January 27, 2009, 21:59

Quote:

Originally posted by BUFF

In .45 ACP, Plus-P isn't much hotter than standard pressure ammo. There is only about 75-100 fps difference.

I just started reloading .45 and noticed very quickly that case capicity seems to be at least double what a "hot" 7 grain load is.
How hot can you run a solid .45 before KABOOM?

spatin · January 27, 2009, 22:12

I don't know the answer to the KA-BOOM question, but I would like to know the answer too.

I reload .45s using Bullseye, and only 4.5 grains of Bullseye barely covers the bottom of the case plus a little. It would be really easy to double or even triple charge. But I am v-e-r-y careful with these loads and weigh the load every 5th or so case. Never had a problem yet. Hopefully these 1911 receivers are stout enough to handle an indiscretion or two. (But I'm not counting on it.)

Sidney

L1A1rocker · January 27, 2009, 23:48

Speaking of the .45 specifically: Externally the size of the round looks like 230 gr. but it is not. It is a pre-partioned (segmented) 117 grain aluminum round traveling at apx 1600 fps! It does not not overpenetrate in soft tissue. Rather it seperates into three seperate fragments that create and extreamly large wound channel.

When hitting a hard target the bullet tends to collaps into itself and punch through and will also defeat most soft body armor.

The guys at Aguilla basiclly stole the concept behind the 5.7 cartridge and put it into use in the 9mm and .45. I really like this round!!!!

powermad · January 29, 2009, 02:48

While I have not tried any I have read several peoples posts that +P 230 grain, JHP's of any flavor will not feed right in the FNP45.

By all accounts it eats anything else though.

chromestarhustler · January 29, 2009, 12:14

it will feed them just shorten them up a hair on your press, i run my remington jhp on a buddies press to shorten them up just a hair. just enough that it usually turns the factory load into a compressed load. the shorter length makes them feed threw my stubborn ass rock island flawlessly.

bladeaholic · January 29, 2009, 20:37

Yep,IQ is good stuff.
Soo good on soft targets that they stopped selling it in the US!.

Smokes through propane cans and kevlar!!!.

falfred · January 30, 2009, 20:06

Is the I.Q. all that great? I have read a bunch of good and bad about it. That said, I have a few boxes stashed away. One nice benefit is that they are light, and carrying in the pants pocket is more comfortable with these loaded up.

jefferyc22 · January 31, 2009, 16:09

My Favorite

molonlabe texan · January 31, 2009, 23:26

Golden Sabre 185 +P

jefferyc22 · January 31, 2009, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by jefferyc22
My Favorite

Just noticed the box in the link is 9mm while the heading is what its supposed to be................kinda cheesy for such a big site.

L1A1rocker · February 01, 2009, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by bladeaholic
Yep,IQ is good stuff.
Soo good on soft targets that they stopped selling it in the US!.

Smokes through propane cans and kevlar!!!.

Just scored 2 boxes of it today at the FunShow!!!

csam · February 04, 2009, 18:39

"How come you shot him eight times?" I said, "well I only had eight bullets!"

SIG552 · February 06, 2009, 04:59

Spend your money on shooting lessons. Being able to control your wits and fire your weapon weigh far more heavily than some +P HP, Hydra-Shok, Golden Sabre etc. round you buy.

A carefully placed round (230gr. ball) is sufficient, believe me. Ask any number of crazed Japanese dead people in the Pacific AO........

People running home defence with a little .380 ACP/.38SPL pussy gun should be asking "which round" questions, not .45ACP owners. Thats the whole point in the 1911/.45ACP combination.

SIGgie

v188 · February 06, 2009, 20:15

They used to issue the Federal Tactical that I thought was pretty good stuff. Our firearms guys did their research and we changed over to Speer Gold Dot. I think it's got fantastic specs.

Very happy with it, and I stick to it with my personal 45's. Of course, I don't have to buy the ammo either.

armed1 · February 09, 2009, 23:36

I dont think 900 FPS is enough to provide reliable expansion in a HP. I like good old reliable 230 gn hard ball, just like Mr. Browning prescribed.

**BUFF** · February 10, 2009, 04:03

Originally posted by armed1:

"I dont think 900 FPS is enough to provide reliable expansion in a HP."

20 years ago, I would have agreed with you. After the F.B.I.'s 1986 debacle in Miami, FL with two bank robber/ murderers named Platt and Matix, in which poor tactics got agents killed, handgun bullet performance underwent a revolution. Useful simulants evolved and lots of testing was done on new designs. Handgun bullets can now be constructed to give reliable expansion, to the size desired, with the desired penetration, on human torsos, with velocities as low as 700 fps.

IF the bullet is designed for that velocity.

I was involved in a shooting in 2001. I fired four rounds of Federal's 230 grain "tactical bonded" Plus-P .45 ACP from a 4-1/4 inch Colt. I got to weigh and measure 3 of the recovered bullets later (the 4th is still inside one of the perps). They all expanded to about .75". The 3 recovered bullets also retained just about all their 230 grain weight.

I have examined and weighed the same brand and style of expended bullets in 9mm and 10mm "Lite" and they also expanded to nearly double their original diameters.

Round nose jacketed bullets can penetrate too much and richochet too easily. If your handgun cycles well with them, there is no reason to not choose a modern hollowpoint bullet loading.

jefferyc22 · February 10, 2009, 11:57

Quote:

Originally posted by BUFF
Originally posted by armed1:

(the 4th is still inside one of the perps).

Yikes.......that's alot of lead to wear permanently.....
I assume the other rounds where kills and torso shots?

spatin · February 10, 2009, 23:55

Well, as of now, until I get something better, I am carrying Winchester Silver-Tip HPs. Those seem to have a pretty good reputation. Any comments on those rounds from people who have actually used them?
Sidney

**BUFF** · February 11, 2009, 05:05

Quote:

Originally posted by jefferyc22

Yikes.......that's alot of lead to wear permanently.....
I assume the other rounds where kills and torso shots?

Actually, 2 torso shots. Front-to-back on one guy, it exited. Side-to-side, the one the docs left inside, plus a side-to-side thigh shot and a head shot all on the second guy.

It did put a crimp in their plans.

January 22, 2009, 11:25	#1
BSchroeder Registered FALaholic #: 6303 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 203	.45 Self Defense I know this question has been asked many times before, but I couldn't find much in my search. What do you recommend for my mew FN45? I picked up two boxes of 230 grain HydraShocks to tide me over, but want something more 'modern.' Corbon DPX and Hornaday look good to me. What is the difference between Hornaday TAP and XTP? Is the TAP just an XTP bullet on top of better powder? I lean towards 230 grain bullets, but don't have much of a reason, other than the original 45 ACP ammo was 230 grains. I want a few rounds of +P also. Looks like it's Hornaday or nothing if I want 230's.

January 22, 2009, 12:05	#2
Tuscan Raider Registered FALaholic #: 19668 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 2,944	All are good rounds. Feel safe with any one of those. Buy a box of each and find out which one the pistol likes. __________________ "An eye for an eye makes us all blind." Ghandi "We, here in America, hold in our hands the hopes of the world, the fate of the coming years; and shame and disgrace will be ours if in our eyes the light of high resolve is dimmed, if we trail in the dust the golden hopes of men." Theodore Roosevelt Address at Carnegie Hall March 30, 1912

January 22, 2009, 12:10	#3
cpgor Registered FALaholic #: 3608 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: NY Posts: 370	The Corbon DPX 185 grain tested out the best for my dept. the only reason we aren't using it is the cost. Instead we went to the new Federal HST in 230 grain. __________________ "Why that boy's about as sharp as a bowling ball" -Foghorn Leghorn SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES .. THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING ... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS. You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

January 22, 2009, 13:28	#5
cpgor Registered FALaholic #: 3608 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: NY Posts: 370	Don't pigeon-hole yourself because that was the original weight, first off as Tuscan Raider said see which your gun likes best then set your criteria from there, expansion,penetration, retained weight, cost, etc... __________________ "Why that boy's about as sharp as a bowling ball" -Foghorn Leghorn SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES .. THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING ... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS. You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone Last edited by cpgor; January 22, 2009 at 14:44.

January 22, 2009, 14:15	#7
Muggzy Registered FALaholic #: 4396 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,723	I would have to pick reliable and then accuracy. I am not positive 'bou this last statement but I don't if the bad guy could tell the difference between a Golden Saber, Cor Bon ......... __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ablility to learn from the experience of other, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. Douglas Graham Life is drawing without an eraser Judge me all you want, just keep the verdict to yourself a positve attitude may not solve all your problems, but will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort ~ Herm

January 22, 2009, 13:35	#6
jackj Registered FALaholic #: 32850 Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 70	If I'm not remembering wrong, the Corbon ammo had the highest one shot stopping power stats in the Sanow research. Others may have equalled it, but nobody has developed a better product to the best of my knowledge. It had a (94%) rating if I remember correctly. Damn difficult to improve on that

January 22, 2009, 18:17	#9
W.E.G. Administrator Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 1211 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 31,056	Self defense advice for the 1911? I recommend a hat and eye protection. __________________ . . . Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

January 25, 2009, 16:22	#10
jefferyc22 Banned FALaholic #: 18245 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: PNW Posts: 3,447	Can one still get Hornady .45 in +P?...............all the Hornady stuff I see in the store is not +P rated now. I shot some of my Hornady in +P a few months age............VERY hot!

January 25, 2009, 22:33	#11
BUFF Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 789 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 7,141	My department issues the Federal "Tactical Bonded" 230 grain JHP Plus-P to those of us who carry .45's. I have it in all my 1911's that get serious use. In .45 ACP, Plus-P isn't much hotter than standard pressure ammo. There is only about 75-100 fps difference. We use Federal American Eagle red box 230 grain FMJ for most training and qualification, but we shoot up our carry ammo at least once a year and get fresh stuff. I can't tell much difference shooting both and they hit about the same spot out to 50 yards. I have shot a lot of it through a stock Colt Series 80 Gov't Model and a lightweight stainless Commander. It feeds reliably in both. Federal says it is one step up from the Hydra-Shock. I can testify that they work well on people in a serious social setting where crisis intervention is needed. Any of the top three ammo makers' premium hollow point .45's work very well. I would be happy with the Winchester or Remington offerings if I couldn't get Federal. __________________ BUFF

January 26, 2009, 07:18	#12
chromestarhustler Registered FALaholic #: 19815 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: kansas Posts: 3,427	i have shot the reminington, winchester, hydra shocks corbons threw all my 1911s. all feed fine. as for one hit stopping power. do you plan on shooting the bad guy just once? __________________ My God in heaven, watch over me and please let me be victorous over mine ememies, but if i must fall in battle let me be brave i am a member of the ammo hoarders of america, ask me about selling your ammo for my fun and your profit

January 27, 2009, 21:39	#13
spatin Moderator Likes FALs FALaholic #: 17469 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,659	Actually, I don't think I should have to even hit the bad guy once. Just one round from my .45 ACP mega-thunder gargantuan expander not-ball ammo, even close to the bad guy, should blow him up like in a cartoon, just like in Hollywood. Really, don't we spend an awful lot of time developing "better" bullets for what is already a proven man-stopper even back in the time when all we had was 240 grain lead bullets? (I guess bullet makers just have to sell more bullets.) Hell, I imagine a 240 grain RN lead bullet at 850 fps will stop just about the most determined, drugged out, and pissed off perp that I could imagine. Anyone have any personal experience with this? (Not with gelatin. I'm talking about drug crazed face on attacks.) Sidney __________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual ... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, ... or "taken care of." - Suzanna Gratia-Hupp http://www.a-human-right.com/effective.html “Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy” - Benjamin Franklin Donations are gratefully accepted.

January 27, 2009, 22:12	#15
spatin Moderator Likes FALs FALaholic #: 17469 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,659	I don't know the answer to the KA-BOOM question, but I would like to know the answer too. I reload .45s using Bullseye, and only 4.5 grains of Bullseye barely covers the bottom of the case plus a little. It would be really easy to double or even triple charge. But I am v-e-r-y careful with these loads and weigh the load every 5th or so case. Never had a problem yet. Hopefully these 1911 receivers are stout enough to handle an indiscretion or two. (But I'm not counting on it.) Sidney __________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual ... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, ... or "taken care of." - Suzanna Gratia-Hupp http://www.a-human-right.com/effective.html “Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy” - Benjamin Franklin Donations are gratefully accepted.

January 27, 2009, 23:48	#16
L1A1rocker Registered FALaholic #: 12294 Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,272	Speaking of the .45 specifically: Externally the size of the round looks like 230 gr. but it is not. It is a pre-partioned (segmented) 117 grain aluminum round traveling at apx 1600 fps! It does not not overpenetrate in soft tissue. Rather it seperates into three seperate fragments that create and extreamly large wound channel. When hitting a hard target the bullet tends to collaps into itself and punch through and will also defeat most soft body armor. The guys at Aguilla basiclly stole the concept behind the 5.7 cartridge and put it into use in the 9mm and .45. I really like this round!!!!

January 29, 2009, 02:48	#17
powermad Registered FALaholic #: 21150 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,216	While I have not tried any I have read several peoples posts that +P 230 grain, JHP's of any flavor will not feed right in the FNP45. By all accounts it eats anything else though.

January 29, 2009, 12:14	#18
chromestarhustler Registered FALaholic #: 19815 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: kansas Posts: 3,427	it will feed them just shorten them up a hair on your press, i run my remington jhp on a buddies press to shorten them up just a hair. just enough that it usually turns the factory load into a compressed load. the shorter length makes them feed threw my stubborn ass rock island flawlessly. __________________ My God in heaven, watch over me and please let me be victorous over mine ememies, but if i must fall in battle let me be brave i am a member of the ammo hoarders of america, ask me about selling your ammo for my fun and your profit

January 29, 2009, 20:37	#19
bladeaholic Registered FALaholic #: 35359 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dessert southwest Posts: 26	IQ Yep,IQ is good stuff. Soo good on soft targets that they stopped selling it in the US!. Smokes through propane cans and kevlar!!!.

January 30, 2009, 20:06	#20
falfred Registered FALaholic #: 8090 Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 295	Is the I.Q. all that great? I have read a bunch of good and bad about it. That said, I have a few boxes stashed away. One nice benefit is that they are light, and carrying in the pants pocket is more comfortable with these loaded up.

January 31, 2009, 16:09	#21
jefferyc22 Banned FALaholic #: 18245 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: PNW Posts: 3,447	My Favorite

January 31, 2009, 23:26	#22
molonlabe texan You asked for it to be Brought.. it was. FALaholic #: 31121 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: This ain't no party... Posts: 1,082	Golden Sabre 185 +P

February 04, 2009, 18:39	#25
csam Registered FALaholic #: 4117 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta Posts: 255	"How come you shot him eight times?" I said, "well I only had eight bullets!"

February 06, 2009, 04:59	#26
SIG552 Registered FALaholic #: 21446 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: FL350 somewhere Posts: 1,621	Spend your money on shooting lessons. Being able to control your wits and fire your weapon weigh far more heavily than some +P HP, Hydra-Shok, Golden Sabre etc. round you buy. A carefully placed round (230gr. ball) is sufficient, believe me. Ask any number of crazed Japanese dead people in the Pacific AO........ People running home defence with a little .380 ACP/.38SPL pussy gun should be asking "which round" questions, not .45ACP owners. Thats the whole point in the 1911/.45ACP combination. SIGgie

February 06, 2009, 20:15	#27
v188 Registered FALaholic #: 1154 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Huskerland Posts: 716	They used to issue the Federal Tactical that I thought was pretty good stuff. Our firearms guys did their research and we changed over to Speer Gold Dot. I think it's got fantastic specs. Very happy with it, and I stick to it with my personal 45's. Of course, I don't have to buy the ammo either. __________________ At All times preach the Gospel, use words if necessary!

February 09, 2009, 23:36	#28
armed1 Registered FALaholic #: 9057 Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 879	I dont think 900 FPS is enough to provide reliable expansion in a HP. I like good old reliable 230 gn hard ball, just like Mr. Browning prescribed.

February 10, 2009, 04:03	#29
BUFF Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 789 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 7,141	Originally posted by armed1: "I dont think 900 FPS is enough to provide reliable expansion in a HP." 20 years ago, I would have agreed with you. After the F.B.I.'s 1986 debacle in Miami, FL with two bank robber/ murderers named Platt and Matix, in which poor tactics got agents killed, handgun bullet performance underwent a revolution. Useful simulants evolved and lots of testing was done on new designs. Handgun bullets can now be constructed to give reliable expansion, to the size desired, with the desired penetration, on human torsos, with velocities as low as 700 fps. IF the bullet is designed for that velocity. I was involved in a shooting in 2001. I fired four rounds of Federal's 230 grain "tactical bonded" Plus-P .45 ACP from a 4-1/4 inch Colt. I got to weigh and measure 3 of the recovered bullets later (the 4th is still inside one of the perps). They all expanded to about .75". The 3 recovered bullets also retained just about all their 230 grain weight. I have examined and weighed the same brand and style of expended bullets in 9mm and 10mm "Lite" and they also expanded to nearly double their original diameters. Round nose jacketed bullets can penetrate too much and richochet too easily. If your handgun cycles well with them, there is no reason to not choose a modern hollowpoint bullet loading. __________________ BUFF

February 10, 2009, 23:55	#31
spatin Moderator Likes FALs FALaholic #: 17469 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,659	Well, as of now, until I get something better, I am carrying Winchester Silver-Tip HPs. Those seem to have a pretty good reputation. Any comments on those rounds from people who have actually used them? Sidney __________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual ... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, ... or "taken care of." - Suzanna Gratia-Hupp http://www.a-human-right.com/effective.html “Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy” - Benjamin Franklin Donations are gratefully accepted.

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