For those who have no worries about what's coming

[M829A3]

It's not that you'll be looking for problems, maybe it'll be just some idiot or well meaning fool.

Today, I left my shop, a one man auto repair shop, to get lunch 200 ft from my door at the local pizza joint. While I'm there the girls at the beauty shop call , and order a pizza, now I know them, and it's $1.20 for delivery so I tell Dan I'll take it to them, literally across the intersection. Now my shop has been there 15 years, and I deal with the same people for 15 years, two things become apparent later, 1) I don't know all the cops, and 2) suppliers hire the most fucked up idiots they can find.

(Background info, as all my tools and equipment is at the shop it's a handy place to build my rifles, parts and components are in LOCKED cabinets, with no receivers with them. Finished projects are LOCKED in a small room adjacent to the office behind a door that is hidden from view by another door. Locked is an important word here. Shop is located directly across street from local court house, my garage door opens directly into the front door of the court, 30 ft across road, and POLICE ONLY PARKING is in front of my door, fucked up arrangement huh, well the court, just showed up last year and rezoned the parking, but I digress. There is no crime in the neighborhood and EVERYONE, including COURT employees come to me to fix everything from computers to cars.) Nothing except the court has changed in 15 years.)

I return from delivering pizza less than 100 ft from shop and 10 minutes BS with owner of Salon, to 3 cops, and some idiot in front of my door. Cops look at me and start the who are you, do you have ID? Well yes I do it's in the office, why?, I'll get i..... cop puts up hand and restrains me. Idiot looks like he's shitting himself. Cops says, this guy here found your building open and couldn't find anyone, so he FLAGGED us down. "While WE were SEARCHING the premises, because we didn't know what was going on, we found these keys on the desk and and un locked all the doors to see if there were any bodies or anything, and we found your machine guns. At least we think they are machine guns we sent for an EXPERT. We don't understand why you would have these", ( L1A1 built on DSA Aussie Ser # 00114, and and scoped bull barrel Imbel build, with 2000 rds mixed surplus.) Now the cops aren't really being jerks, but at least one of them seems to think he's making Sergeant today. So I say "look I can show..." Cop #1 puts he's hands up and stops me while cop #2 comes out of shop with a serious look ,and shakes his head. So I'm blocked from gaining access to my shop while the cops unlock and search everything, now they think they have stumbled on a "MachineGun Factory" So now we wait for detective to show up, while I small talk with "Good" cop. Talk Army, M16, why I chose FAL over M16, I go through history blah blah , only rifles I have, not machine guns, 90 countries M16 is poofter, why don't I choose it, Dust? nah too light, finally detective arrives, seems to be not too concerned, talks with Cop #2, looks at me , so I start FAL, not machine gun, blah blah blah, look I'll show.... We ALL now go into office, cops expose door, unlock door, and start handing the 2 rifles to detective, who does a "BOLT OVER TEST" "just like we do to our full auto M16's" I'm thinking great I'm going to be getting my minty L!A1 back from the BATFE in a 1x2 box cut up,after a 2 week stay in local jail, saying yeah he was right not a machine gun, because the firing pin rode forward with the bolt, or god forbid the selector simply went to A. Detective pronounces all is well, and finishes up with , " well they are former military weapons, and these guys don't know, easily converted to full auto,blah blah, they were concerned because the building was empty, and if someone came in and found the keys and the room and stole them," I pointed out that no one knew about the room and it was hidden from casual view, until YOUR SEARCH showed this idiot where it was. Cops pronounced everything fine, packed up and left. Oh and idiot that shit himself, was NEW delivery driver, first day on the job, who kept saying over and over, "I'm sorry but I didn't know, I was sent to pick up a check." I told him to "get the **** out of here".


So will the cops always be your buddy? Will they even know what they are looking at? Will someone out of concern do something that spirals out of control, just as John Q. LAW shows up and is looking for his next "atta boy review". In my instance it seemingly ended fine, with mostly professional attitude, deportment from the police. But I can see, any number of small details that could have ended up badly, until all sorted out. So who will be knocking on you door and why? Will they knock at all, or use "Probable Cause" to search, what ever they want. Who knows?

[308/223shooter]

And NOW, due to the un-authorised search without a warrent, the fact that you have {OMG!} GUNS in your shop, will be in the local news reports for any POS that wants to steal guns.

[AndyC]

You don't have semi-only selectors on your FALs, I guess?

[Stranger]

Originally posted by AndyC
You don't have semi-only selectors on your FALs, I guess?

That's a BS question, Andy. It should not matter.

[Scott V2]

Dearborn PD confiscated one of my FAL's to "make certain it wasn't stolen". Even though it was cleared,I have never gotten it back.

[Manedwolf]

Originally posted by Scott V2
Dearborn PD confiscated one of my FAL's to "make certain it wasn't stolen". Even though it was cleared,I have never gotten it back.

Dearborn? They probably gave it to one of your Durka Durka Jihad neighbors to wave and shoot in the air at the Hezbollah rallies they have.

[AndyC]

Originally posted by Stranger
That's a BS question, Andy. It should not matter.

Whoa there, pardner - we're on the same side, no?

No, it's a legit question, asked out of curiosity, not reproach - I agree wholeheartedly with you that it should not matter, but it apparently does in the real world, whether we like it or not. If we don't acknowledge reality it will automatically work against us, I've found - through some very bitter experience.

Let me rephrase the question, then - do you think the issue would have been more quickly resolved had semi-auto selectors been installed?

[Stranger]

Originally posted by AndyC

Whoa there, pardner - we're on the same side, no?

No, it's a legit question, asked out of curiosity, not reproach - I agree wholeheartedly with you that it should not matter, but it apparently does in the real world, whether we like it or not.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as a jerk.

[AndyC]

And I didn't mean to come across as attacking the poor guy - that wasn't my intent. All's well

[fastfreddy]

You're on "the list" now, boy.

I guess your shop will be locked up tight whenever you so much as take a pee from now on. Besides, no good can come from flirtin' with the beauty shop gals

[M829A3]

Andy C one did, one didn't, but it was the A on the lower that they had them all in a fuss, plus they were "Former Military Weapons". And Freddy, there is one young babe there, holy moly, if I was 20 years younger, I'd be all over.

[AndyC]

So the A marking got them all excited, huh - hmmm, good to know, thanks.

Darnit - I don't want to fill & grind mine out; it would like disrespecting an old warrior somehow.

[L Haney]

My speedo will indicate 120 mph. Illegal in any state I drive in. I ain't gonna' black it out now, am I?

[Deltaten]

Heard that Lowell!

Sorry ta hear of this M82. Damm'd shame that the po-lice were there in a pack.. yanno what they say about hangin' about in gangs... goes fe them too. SO one was "with it" and *still* went along with the rest?

I don't think that I coulda held my temper back so well....well. i mighta tempered my temper; but not my words.
Hmmm ... three cops and only one idiot????

Wonder if they'da been to rarin' ta toss yer stuff if there'da been 'bout 8 or ten backin' yer side. Yanno.. mean and ugly, like the NM THugs :LD

Carry a copy of the PA STate Constitution around and have the Fed/State gunlaws to habd in yer office.
" Public safety, my ass.. get a damm'd warrant and I'll have my lawyer here. I gots the NRA ILA on speed dial.. wanna chat?"

Paul

[M829A3]

The detective was the best of the bunch, not what do you want with these or any of that horse shit. But the one cop with the "we don't understand why you have these", is a pretty good indictment of the prevailing attitude though .

[JohnnyReb]

Originally posted by M829A3
The detective was the best of the bunch, not what do you want with these or any of that horse shit. But the one cop with the "we don't understand why you have these", is a pretty good indictment of the prevailing attitude though .

Where the **** do you live? I need to move farther away in any case!

[M829A3]

Affluent suburb of Philadelphia. Strongly Republican, with a hardcore DA. Doesn't make any difference, the current system is simply two sides of the same coin.

[rustyswarf]

Don't mean to sound racist, but the truth is the truth. In the town I presently live in is a black cop that hates the idea that older white guys have a concealed carry permit. If he finds out you have a CCW permit, he will stop you EVERY time he sees you, ask for your ID and permit, then take your weapon, and run the serial number "make sure it isn't stolen". All the while making you wait. It does not matter if it is the same gun he ran the serial number on yesterday when he stopped you. He's after one of the local gunshop employees because he has a CCW, but he only wears the weapon at work, and leaves it at the shop. Therefor, he never has a gun for the the cop to run the serial number on, which the gunshop guy says upsets the cop. I suspect this cop is compiling a personal list of weapons and who owns them.

[fastfreddy]

Just doin' his part to get ready for the confiscations when Obama gives the word on January 21.

[garandguy10]

You are lucky this did not happen in Kalifornia.
This is why I refuse to put "Dummy selector" kits on any M1A/M14 semi auto with a USGI stock,If it looks like a Machine gun,you can expect to be arrested and the weapon confiscated[likely forever] If a cop even thinks that it may be a title 2 firearm.

Out here in Kalifornia,most of the younger cops are actively anti 2nd amendment and most really do not know anything about firearms except for one golden rule:

If there is any doubt that the firearms is illegal, confinscate the weapon and detain/arrest the possesor.

Let the DA/DOJ sort it out while the innocent gets to make new friends in county lock up.

IMHO, Having those kind of firearms across the street from a court house and leaving your business unlocked/unattended is begging for trouble.

That delivery driver is right now telling all of his friends about all that fire power in your place of business,you can expect to be robbed. [and soon]

[AndyC]

Originally posted by rustyswarf
If he finds out you have a CCW permit, he will stop you EVERY time he sees you, ask for your ID and permit, then take your weapon, and run the serial number "make sure it isn't stolen". All the while making you wait.

"Am I under arrest? Am I free to go now?"

[garandguy10]

Originally posted by AndyC

"Am I under arrest? Am I free to go now?"

Am I under arrest-- Not yet


Am I free to go now?-- not yet.

[DABTL]

If you do not like the way our justice system works, you need to consider for whom you vote.

Just a little cheap advice.

[Seaweed]

I tried, DABTL, the other guy got elected anyway.

As far as the detective recognizing what you had, I'm rather surprised he had any idea what he was holding.

[bill3542]

nothing abnormal for the Philly area where gun owners are thought of as criminals and armed thugs roam the streets.
Im in rural SW Pa with a state cop down the road for a neighbor. he enjoys looking at my toys and never has problem with them, i tease him about getting rid of his poodle shooter and getting a real battle rifle to shoot at our range up back.

[Heat]

Now every cop and dept in the surrounding area is going to hear about your 'arsenal' and a quite word will go out to the BATF&E and the FBI--you poor bastard
I would move your gear muy-pronto or one of these days someones going to make an 'example' of you

[STGThndr]

Sounds like a pile of crap. Wonder if there are enuff grounds to make a lawsuit worthwhile.

[AndyC]

Originally posted by garandguy10
Am I under arrest-- Not yet

Am I free to go now?-- not yet.

Hmmm, that would be irritating as hell. Lawsuit?

[fastfreddy]

Originally posted by Heat
Now every cop and dept in the surrounding area is going to hear about your 'arsenal' and a quite word will go out to the BATF&E and the FBI--you poor bastard
I would move your gear muy-pronto or one of these days someones going to make an 'example' of you

+1

You are on the list. You don't want to find out what that means. Relocate your stuff.

[motosapien]

Originally posted by fastfreddy


+1

You are on the list. You don't want to find out what that means. Relocate your stuff.

And I thought all the tinfoil got used up at Thanksgiving......
If there is a "list(s)" it will be made up by cross referencing lots of data bases.
NRA member or (God forbid) Life Member?
Credit card orders to major arms/ammunition dealers?
Visited the Creek a time or two?
Frequent poster here on the files?
Hunting licenses?
Etc............

Law enforcement agencies are notorious for not sharing data with one another.
Except for the agrrevation, this is just another example of ignorant over reaching cops. If they had found anything illeagal during their illeagal search, even DABTL could have had it thrown out of court.

I would'nt give it another thought..........

[Heat]

Originally posted by motosapien


And I thought all the tinfoil got used up at Thanksgiving......
If there is a "list(s)" it will be made up by cross referencing lots of data bases.
NRA member or (God forbid) Life Member?
Credit card orders to major arms/ammunition dealers?
Visited the Creek a time or two?
Frequent poster here on the files?
Hunting licenses?
Etc............

Law enforcement agencies are notorious for not sharing data with one another.
Except for the agrrevation, this is just another example of ignorant over reaching cops. If they had found anything illeagal during their illeagal search, even DABTL could have had it thrown out of court.

I would'nt give it another thought..........

Nothing tin-foily going on here..cops talk..alot..they also hang out together..alot..and they talk shop..alot--I have been around enough cops when they are discussing cases they have worked, encounters they had to know they yak like a bunch of old hens--once you move above radar and folks are aware of you--like having cops detain you while they do a thourough enough search to discover your 'cache' of weapons that you have at work--then you WILL be the topic of discussion around the water-cooler, donut shop, firing range, weekend BBQ, watering hole--no list really needed--word of mouth is QUITE effective

[motosapien]

Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel


What are you, some kind of ex-'LE' *.*.*.?

Now that is rich! Happy holidays to you too.........

[Illurian00]

ummm,,,why didn't you lock the shop when you stepped out,,,maybe a little sign that says back in 'twenty',,,just a thought.

[101ABN327]

It's typical of the stupid assed cops the academies turn out every week. 99% are ass hatted cowboys looking to collar a "perp", which is anyone that is not a cop. These idiots are the most paranoid and stupidest group of people in the country.

Yeah, I feel safe...

[fastfreddy]

Originally posted by Heat

Nothing tin-foily going on here..cops talk..alot..they also hang out together..alot..and they talk shop..alot--I have been around enough cops when they are discussing cases they have worked, encounters they had to know they yak like a bunch of old hens--once you move above radar and folks are aware of you--like having cops detain you while they do a thourough enough search to discover your 'cache' of weapons that you have at work--then you WILL be the topic of discussion around the water-cooler, donut shop, firing range, weekend BBQ, watering hole--no list really needed--word of mouth is QUITE effective

That's it. THAT is the list. You are above the radar. Everybody in your local government now knows you are "the guy with a lot of guns who they couldn't nail this time". They'll show you. They'll show you real good.

[juanni]

Originally posted by DABTL
If you do not like the way our justice system works, you need to consider for whom you vote.

Just a little cheap advice.

Yep, if you voted for either of the two party's mainstream candidates who are 99.6% anti gun, anti constitution, anti liberty YOU support tyranny.

Feel like a winner now?




................juanni

[motosapien]

I just don't think I would be losing any sleep over the "Barney Fife" cluster phock this fellow had to endure. The lists are already there, and they are not created by local LEO's.

If this had happened to me I would be raising holy hell with the chief of police about an illegal search. There is no law saying you have to lock your business and the brown shirts had no business opening locked doors when there was no evidence of any crime.

Being on the receiving end of the NAZI treatment must be a drag, but I don't think you have to worry too much about it. Don't drive drunk, beat your wife, use illeagal drugs & fail to pay your taxes and you should slide through life like a greased watermellon.

[bakerjw]

Do you own anything on the NFA? Ding ding ding... You're on the list.

[motosapien]

And Freddy, since when did you get so "scarey"? I seem to recall you did a heroic job of standing down the local school district over a t- shirt. My kids when through some of the same bullshit.

My daughter had a female DARE cop come to her junior high classroom some years back and proceeded to give the traitorous anti gun speal. She started out by asking all the kids who had bb guns at home to raise their hands. Quite a few did and she pounced on them because air rifles where at the time, illegal in our city.

So my daughter starts laughing since the stupidity of her whole premiss could not be ignored. The cop asked her what was so funny and she replied:

"Well, we have AR15's in our house and they are not illegal"

I say when the local LEO's get out of line make a real stink about it. Call the mayor, your city councilor etc. and make a fuss. You can have an effect on their budget.

[jaykden]

Originally posted by bakerjw
Do you own anything on the NFA? Ding ding ding... You're on the list.

on what list?

is this an ignorant catch-phrase? or do you have ACTUAL proof of a list that exists for "NFA" owners....

[SWOHFAL]

Originally posted by rustyswarf
Don't mean to sound racist, but the truth is the truth. In the town I presently live in is a black cop that hates the idea that older white guys have a concealed carry permit. If he finds out you have a CCW permit, he will stop you EVERY time he sees you, ask for your ID and permit, then take your weapon, and run the serial number "make sure it isn't stolen". All the while making you wait. It does not matter if it is the same gun he ran the serial number on yesterday when he stopped you. He's after one of the local gunshop employees because he has a CCW, but he only wears the weapon at work, and leaves it at the shop. Therefor, he never has a gun for the the cop to run the serial number on, which the gunshop guy says upsets the cop. I suspect this cop is compiling a personal list of weapons and who owns them.

Harassment complaint time.

[SWOHFAL]

Originally posted by jaykden


on what list?

is this an ignorant catch-phrase? or do you have ACTUAL proof of a list that exists for "NFA" owners....

Considering you have to fill out paperwork on your NFA toys and pay a tax, what makes you think there isn't a list?

[fastfreddy]

There SHOULD be a list of NFA registered firearms. In fact, if you have an NFA firearm that is NOT on the list as having been registered before the required date or the amnesty date, then you have a problem.

However, it has been demonstrated that the BATFE has made a huge mess of administering and maintaining the list. As usual, government doesn't do things well.

[Blue Monster]

Went I lived in MI. I took a P 38 to register it as is law in my former beloved state.
The LEO confiscated it because: "the safety made the hammer go down and was obviously broken" took 4 months to get it back. I tried to explain, I asked him to grab another LEO that may have heard of Walther, there were none (and he had not), nope he took it. Twelve LEOs in the office that day... none knew how a Walther worked or what one was, a James Bond comment was made that's all.

A sterling example of the level of firearm knowledge in our current batch of LEOs.

No offense to LEOs out there, just my personal experience.

Unless of course the moron Deputy is on the files, then all offense meant, your an idiot.




M82 I feel your pain GTFO of Dearborn, if it wasn't for Andiamo's I would never go there.
MI gun laws

[bakerjw]

Just to clarify, the NFA also includes many items other than pre 1986 automatic weapons. Silencers are one such item.

I like that "Ignorant catch phrase" comment. Do you have any NFA items? Have you jumped through the hoops to have them? It is a bit more than the standard form and background check.

[Heat]

The government doesent have lists? HUH? WTF?

[tac556-1]

All Right, I'll Bite...

#1- BS reason for them to be in your shop. Probably could justify looking around inside to make sure you aren't keeled over w/ a heart attack (under some type of "community caretaking" law), but opening your locked doors? WTF? We won't typically do that on a real burglary alarm call w/o some good reason. Never heard of anyone rifling thru a desk to find keys to unlock something like that... Complain, in writing, to the agency. And explain how their ignorance of the law on guns is not your problem! Because that is really what it is...

#2- Being added to some "list"? Hell we can't get current information shared back and forth on seriously wanted people between agencies. Half from people not wanting to talk to each other, the other half from apathy I think. The useless info we do get typically is from some agency somewhere in the US who finds an interesting or unusual weapon or hiding place. I sent a nasty email off after one particularly "duh" type info was blanket emailed to everyone about how the FN pistol "designed to shoot thru vests". The idea was to warn us how the FN pistol was more "dangerous" than others. My response was that maybe anyone pointing ANY gun at the police was dangerous and should be dealt with accordingly, I'll figure out the brand/type of ammo they were carrying later! If there was a "list" of some type, 80% of the copies would be round filed immediately, and the other 20% lost or misfiled. I love government conspiracy theories...like the people in govt are any smarter one way or another than anyone else??? I wish it was so...So keep in mind that the NFA list isn't accurate (a known fact). So what makes you think the under the table lists might be accurate?

3- Yep it's sad that most LE these days don't know much about guns, and have no desire to learn. What's also sad is that some of those who might want to learn, get turned away by the rabid dog crowd of anti-LE gun owners, who think every LE is a bad guy. (But the same rabid dog crowd thinks LE who have an "us/them" mentality are bad for being that way...gee, look in a mirror!) I still see about a 50% pro-gun percentage among LE, but I think it used to be more and is in decline. What do you expect, the public schools teach them that violence and weapons are bad. I spoke at a school once on a gun debate (I was the pro-gun side, the school admin was the anti-gun side) and that opened my eyes as to the mentality of the schools these days. These new LEO's are from the "no tolerance" generation on weapons. Not so long ago, we used to bring shotguns and rifles to school, visible in gun racks, so we could hunt after school. That would be a national news item these days.

4- The ignorance about how LE does their job is staggering, thanks to TV and a few dumb things done by a few dumb people. Do you think that SWAT teams don't study the ATF raid on Koresh (and say "what the hell were those guys thinking!). There is constant learning from other peoples mistakes and misjudgements. The ATF raid is a huge example of what never to do. If you are worried about LE kicking in your door (when you aren't a drug dealer or selling machine guns illegally) it's not real likely. Plus, keep in mind the pro-gun percentage goes up on the typical SWAT team versus the average LEO. So you'll have a hard time convincing anyone to go tear into Joe Citizen's house to "go get his guns" which "used to be legal".... More likely is increased costs on ammo/guns, lawsuits, and generally making it tougher to do any shooting/hunting/selling of guns. Make owning guns a big hassle, and half the people will say screw it...which just means the other half of us needs to be loud and vocal...

[jaykden]

Originally posted by bakerjw
Just to clarify, the NFA also includes many items other than pre 1986 automatic weapons. Silencers are one such item.

I like that "Ignorant catch phrase" comment. Do you have any NFA items? Have you jumped through the hoops to have them? It is a bit more than the standard form and background check.

yes, i have NFA firearms. so YES, i understand what is involved regarding paperwork, ect.

there is a folder with my name on 3 form 1's back at NFA branch of ATF. they are REGISTERED firearms.


but you said... "on the list"....

i again, ask, WHAT LIST?????? does the government have a super secret list of all the evil NFA owners so that when they need to confiscate all NFA items, they can just pass out the big loooooooong list to all the jackbooted thugs so they can send SWAT teams into "our" homes to relieve us of our weapons?

i guess i don't consider the NFA registry, a list like you are talking about.

sure, AFT knows what NFA firearms i have, but its just tax records to show that i paid the $200 to register each firearm.

there are ALOT of igornant guys who spout of crap about owning NFA items that have no clue as to what they are talking about. like the guys that say ATF doesn't need a warrant to enter your home to check on your NFA stuff. thats just one example of an idiot who has no idea what he is talking about.

if you want to think that all NFA owners have a big ole red astrix by their name, so that they know whos house to storm first, well, i say you're wrong.

besides, if you are going to believe that, then you also will believe that all the 4473's are a registry that can be used to find out what guns have been bought by whom. so really, NFA is no different than filling out a 4473.... and therefore, anyone who has filled out a 4473 is ALSO on "the list".


maybe i'm not paranoid enough?

[Tak]

LE's......

Remember when they were called 'Peace Officers' ?

It's not about preserving the Peace anymore, it's all about ENFORCING laws.

[bakerjw]

Not to incite or act like an "ignorant guy", however you seem to like throwing that word around in your posts...

Do 4473's get sent to a centralized location for storage? Being a C&R collector I don't deal with them so I really don't know.

All assuming that you don't or cannot go the trust route for NFA devices.
Do 4473's require 2 sets of fingerprints?
Do 4473's require 2 photos that are less than a year old?
Do 4473's require a CLEO sign off?
Since you are so well versed on NFA and 4473's you would realize all of this already.

Whether or not there is a centralized list doesn't matter. The records stored by the ATF will be a key component in determining potential troublemakers.