I Could Spend all Day Looking at This Site

**TFA303** · December 12, 2008, 12:53

In the Navy, one of our foremost teaching tools is biting sarcasm. The Navy Safety Center is the best at this, as their weekly message savages those fools who injure themselves in particualrly instructive varieties of stupidity.

Now they've taken that method to the Web:
How Is A Rifle Like A Banana?

**TFA303** · December 12, 2008, 13:41

And another one:

Seems a pair of soldiers were driving a rented SUV at a test and training range out west one night. Seems an F-16 pilot was getting some target practice at the time. Seems the SUV was in the target area. Seems the pilot was a good shot.

A local spokesman said the soldiers were not hit but suffered minor injuries "while exiting the vehicle in rough terrain." Personally, any minor injuries I suffered while bailing out of a vehicle and running away while being shot at with REALLY big bullets would be a welcome alternative.

The soldiers had been training to identify enemy targets and direct aircraft to fire on them. And to this, all we can say is, “Now you know what it feels like.”

Have you ever seen those little stick-on “bullet hole” decals you can get for your car? This is what the jumbo version would look like. I just wish we had a photo of the expression on the face of the car-rental employee when this one was towed back in.

Update: According to an Air Force news release, investigators determined that this mishap was due to pilot error. "The cause of the accident was the failure of the pilot to positively identify the intended target during the nighttime, close air support training sortie," the news release said. The F-16 pilot had been wearing night-vision goggles while firing the jet's 20 millimeter canon. He briefly lost sight of the target area as rolled and began the strafing run, then misidentified the SUV as the target, which was actually 1.5 miles away. The two soldiers in the SUV were part of a different training project on the range.

flopshot · December 12, 2008, 14:04

that thing must work. he got the rifle to shoot the boresighter dead center.

AndyC · December 12, 2008, 14:12

Seriously good grouping on that vehicle from a plane - buy that Falcon-driver a beer

Stranger · December 12, 2008, 16:27

Quote:

Originally posted by TFA303

Update: According to an Air Force news release, investigators determined that this mishap was due to pilot error. "The cause of the accident was the failure of the pilot to positively identify the intended target during the nighttime, close air support training sortie," the news release said. The F-16 pilot had been wearing night-vision goggles while firing the jet's 20 millimeter canon. He briefly lost sight of the target area as rolled and began the strafing run, then misidentified the SUV as the target, which was actually 1.5 miles away. The two soldiers in the SUV were part of a different training project on the range.

Okay, I don't get it. Why are the holes so big? 20 mm is a big round but it isn't 6" big. Even incendiary .50s only put .60" holes in auto sheet metal. Are the detonators in 20mm rounds so sensitive that thin sheet metal will detonate them? Someone care to explain it?

**Lee Carpentieri** · December 12, 2008, 16:58

I wonder if the SUV still runs. Looks like a multitude of burst from the 20mm on the aircraft. Wonder if they had GEICO INSURANCE, ITS SO EASY, EVEN A CAVEMAN CAN CAUSE THAT MUCH DAMAGE.

tac-40 · December 12, 2008, 17:45

Quote:

Seriously good grouping on that vehicle from a plane - buy that Falcon-driver a beer

Except for the "flyer", that seriously looks to be about a 1 MOA group. I definitely would call that good shooting.

**Blackmore** · December 12, 2008, 19:25

Thanks to member lpo for this one:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/index.asp

Tuscan Raider · December 12, 2008, 19:49

Would they even use live ammo? If they did, wouldn't an exploding
20mm round 1 foot behind you give you more than minor injuries?

Also, I see what appears to be a "smaller caliber" entry hole
above the rear window towards the front of it.

**L Haney** · December 13, 2008, 08:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Stranger

Okay, I don't get it. Why are the holes so big? 20 mm is a big round but it isn't 6" big. Even incendiary .50s only put .60" holes in auto sheet metal. Are the detonators in 20mm rounds so sensitive that thin sheet metal will detonate them? Someone care to explain it?

Velocity. That thin sheet metal flaps and tears like tissue paper. Doesn't need an HE round to do that. You oughta' see what 30 mm HV does to a 5 ton truck chassis. A La A-10 Warthog- GAU-8 main gun. It's not cut in half as much as dissipated as vapor. I saw this stuff done, and it gave me a whole new respect for exterior ballistics. I ain't even going to go around what the KE rounds from the 120 mm Abraham's does to armor at two miles. That truly boggles the mind.

Lowell

Stranger · December 13, 2008, 08:41

The velocities on 20mm are around 3300 ft/s which is about 300 fps higher than what you see for a really hot .50 BMG load. You can get .308 loads to push 3200 fps but you don't see them blowing 3" holes in sheet metal. I would have thought higher velocities would have caused less deformation, not more.

I have seen pictures of the KE aftermath and typically the entrance is a pretty small hole.

Wes Janson · December 13, 2008, 11:23

Quote:

The velocities on 20mm are around 3300 ft/s which is about 300 fps higher than what you see for a really hot .50 BMG load. You can get .308 loads to push 3200 fps but you don't see them blowing 3" holes in sheet metal. I would have thought higher velocities would have caused less deformation, not more.

I have seen pictures of the KE aftermath and typically the entrance is a pretty small hole.

It's also a considerably larger projectile.

0302 · December 15, 2008, 20:42

i am impressed, i had no idea the air force could shoot that good, thought only marine pilots possed that skill, will wonders never cease.

FAL GRUNT · December 15, 2008, 22:35

My personal thought, while no expert, is that those are exit holes.

A .308 exit hole on an F-350 bed. The round entered from the "inside" of the bed and exited outward. The inside hole was a neat little hole, the exit was not. Standard 147gr FMJ.

My friend also issued my father a 6-pack of his favorite beer....

Lucky for him the truck is a beater and the bed is going to be replaced.

-myers

[486] · December 16, 2008, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by FAL GRUNT
My personal thought, while no expert, is that those are exit holes.

How are they dented inwards around the holes then?

English Mike · December 16, 2008, 20:41

Quote:

Originally posted by [486]

How are they dented inwards around the holes then?

Looks like a suburban myth to me.

If you blow up the photo, the inner lining of the vehicle body visible in the holes appears to have several smaller holes in it & it doesn't look like the kind of damage I'd associate with hits from either AP or HE rounds on a soft skin.

December 12, 2008, 12:53	#1
TFA303 Veteran Member Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 1300 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Northern AL Posts: 1,344	I Could Spend all Day Looking at This Site In the Navy, one of our foremost teaching tools is biting sarcasm. The Navy Safety Center is the best at this, as their weekly message savages those fools who injure themselves in particualrly instructive varieties of stupidity. Now they've taken that method to the Web: How Is A Rifle Like A Banana? __________________ There is a fine line between a "hobby" and a "mental disorder".

December 12, 2008, 13:41	#2
TFA303 Veteran Member Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 1300 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Northern AL Posts: 1,344	And another one: Seems a pair of soldiers were driving a rented SUV at a test and training range out west one night. Seems an F-16 pilot was getting some target practice at the time. Seems the SUV was in the target area. Seems the pilot was a good shot. A local spokesman said the soldiers were not hit but suffered minor injuries "while exiting the vehicle in rough terrain." Personally, any minor injuries I suffered while bailing out of a vehicle and running away while being shot at with REALLY big bullets would be a welcome alternative. The soldiers had been training to identify enemy targets and direct aircraft to fire on them. And to this, all we can say is, “Now you know what it feels like.” Have you ever seen those little stick-on “bullet hole” decals you can get for your car? This is what the jumbo version would look like. I just wish we had a photo of the expression on the face of the car-rental employee when this one was towed back in. Update: According to an Air Force news release, investigators determined that this mishap was due to pilot error. "The cause of the accident was the failure of the pilot to positively identify the intended target during the nighttime, close air support training sortie," the news release said. The F-16 pilot had been wearing night-vision goggles while firing the jet's 20 millimeter canon. He briefly lost sight of the target area as rolled and began the strafing run, then misidentified the SUV as the target, which was actually 1.5 miles away. The two soldiers in the SUV were part of a different training project on the range. __________________ There is a fine line between a "hobby" and a "mental disorder".

December 12, 2008, 14:12	#4
AndyC Porridge Wog Contributor FALaholic #: 19755 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Euless, TX Posts: 11,061	Seriously good grouping on that vehicle from a plane - buy that Falcon-driver a beer __________________ My Iraq Pics Preferred Travel Agent - 72 Virgins Dating Club

December 12, 2008, 16:58	#6
Lee Carpentieri Curio & Relic Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 4936 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: N/A Posts: 4,196	Vechicle shot up I wonder if the SUV still runs. Looks like a multitude of burst from the 20mm on the aircraft. Wonder if they had GEICO INSURANCE, ITS SO EASY, EVEN A CAVEMAN CAN CAUSE THAT MUCH DAMAGE. __________________ Live life to the fullest, Because in the end there's only death and taxs.

December 12, 2008, 19:25	#8
Blackmore Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 2690 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: West Central New Hampshire Posts: 4,407	Thanks to member lpo for this one: http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/index.asp __________________ A professional is someone who can do his best work when he doesn't feel like it.

December 12, 2008, 14:04	#3
flopshot Registered FALaholic #: 21389 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,067	that thing must work. he got the rifle to shoot the boresighter dead center.

December 12, 2008, 19:49	#9
Tuscan Raider Registered FALaholic #: 19668 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 2,963	Would they even use live ammo? If they did, wouldn't an exploding 20mm round 1 foot behind you give you more than minor injuries? Also, I see what appears to be a "smaller caliber" entry hole above the rear window towards the front of it. __________________ "An eye for an eye makes us all blind." Ghandi "We, here in America, hold in our hands the hopes of the world, the fate of the coming years; and shame and disgrace will be ours if in our eyes the light of high resolve is dimmed, if we trail in the dust the golden hopes of men." Theodore Roosevelt Address at Carnegie Hall March 30, 1912

December 13, 2008, 08:41	#11
Stranger Registered FALaholic #: 3555 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 9,499	The velocities on 20mm are around 3300 ft/s which is about 300 fps higher than what you see for a really hot .50 BMG load. You can get .308 loads to push 3200 fps but you don't see them blowing 3" holes in sheet metal. I would have thought higher velocities would have caused less deformation, not more. I have seen pictures of the KE aftermath and typically the entrance is a pretty small hole. __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate. Last edited by Stranger; December 13, 2008 at 08:46.

December 15, 2008, 20:42	#13
0302 Registered FALaholic #: 348 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: New Mexico Posts: 3,868	i am impressed, i had no idea the air force could shoot that good, thought only marine pilots possed that skill, will wonders never cease.

December 15, 2008, 22:35	#14
FAL GRUNT Registered FALaholic #: 7561 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Medina OH Posts: 3,053	My personal thought, while no expert, is that those are exit holes. A .308 exit hole on an F-350 bed. The round entered from the "inside" of the bed and exited outward. The inside hole was a neat little hole, the exit was not. Standard 147gr FMJ. My friend also issued my father a 6-pack of his favorite beer.... Lucky for him the truck is a beater and the bed is going to be replaced. -myers __________________ http://myersarms.wordpress.com/

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