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August 24, 2008, 20:25
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#1 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 16376 Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 351
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Speeding up a FAL for 3-gun competition
A bit of history first:
My first .308 rifle was a FAL and have put more rounds downrange with it than any other rifle I have ever owned. I have a very good trigger [by FAL standards] extended mag and bolt release, sling mount and two optic mounts including one of my very own design. The FAL is the rifle I would choose first were I required to stake my life on it. I have shot other .308's, and each has it's arguments for and against. Personally here are mine: AR10 - looks cool and the real ones are nice. My buddy has an early one, and the only fault I can find with it is it is godawful heavy and doesn't seem to balance right. The whole magazine thing bothers me too, although I gather they have fixed the feeding issues but the mags are still pricey. Bushmaster/RRA B/L-AR10 - was an early adopter of the BAR [busmaster] 10 and while it was OK, I was not impressed with it's accuracy. I also had alot of mag issues where mags that were 100% with FAL didn't work in the Bushy. Loved the concept, but the execution left a bit to be desired. DPMS - currently my top contender if I end up replacing the FAL and just happen to find $1500 laying around. I would want a few 30 or more round mags though, 19 is a really ODD number HK - had a real HK91 and a Fake [cast rec] both, and despite the fact they looked cool and the real one was, well, real, the ergos werent there and I wasn't fond of how they shot. I also had a devil of a time reloading, and that is a big issue [dillon hadn't invented carbide dies yet. Fluted Chamver > Lee dies.] The mags are dirt cheap though... M1A - great for Highpower, but too heavy and the wrong ergos for 3gun. probably the most accurate open sights I have ever shot. CMMG HK mag lower + DPMS upper - This intrigues me because of the dirt cheap mags + standard platform. AK/Sagia/Galil - I have shot a Sagia and a Galil in .308, and while I find them interesting, none of these offeres an improvement over my FAL in terms of ergos or adaptability. So, where I am at is either finding ways to make my FAL more competitive or shelling out big bux [to me] for the DPMS. So, here's my question, If I choose to stick with my FAL, how can I make it more competitive? I typically shoot heavy metal [.308, open sights] so the optics mounts are only for when I get bored or have to shoot really long range. In Heavy Metal, the only rifles that consistantly beat me are the AR style .308's, which, in turn, is why I am posing this question.
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======================= Efficiency is doing things right. Effectiveness is doing the right things. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. ======================= |
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August 25, 2008, 13:26
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#2 |
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banned again
FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orygun
Posts: 4,838
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must gillify ....this will make it run ...run....run....as fast as it will EVER go ...ya ay think your feeding in a stock rifle ...but when the 900 hp porche..pulls up to the stock "71"pinto.... wellya know the rest .hehehe ...
Paddle mag release set up mag release to release ...and a REAL brake..... watch the left side up front ...do go tooo far ....about 300 folk have done this an the same thing is said every time ...gonna feel like a totaly different rifle to ya .guaranteed ...twice as fast on cyclic and ya dont impact the ramp AT ALL .... this isnt for the girls .......... http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiilli...IILLIIEESRAIL/ you can do the ejector too so it wont lay one in the tray running so much faster ....and the brass will no be mangled for reloading ... |
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August 26, 2008, 07:22
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#3 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 10484 Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,765
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A nice big brake is a big help,
Trigger, Magazine capacity is the other factor, you really need 25 rounds(I only use 20's). That being said, I placed second in limited class in our annual big 3 gun match this year with a basically bone stock Imbel(50 plus shooters), to a tricked out JP-AR race gun. The AR-10's aren't all they are cut out to be. 2 close friends bought Fulton-DPMS rifles last year, they have spent more time working on them that shooting. Both rifles have had bolts replaced, and show pressure signs on the brass with any ammo we have tried. The mags will take 20 rounds, but you had best have the bolt locked back if you want to seat a mag without the use of a hammer. |
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August 26, 2008, 07:23
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#4 |
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FALaholic #: 10484 Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,765
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BTW, you could dump that Hesse for a better rifle, that might speed you up a bit....
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August 26, 2008, 07:50
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#5 | |
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FALaholic #: 16376 Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 351
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Quote:
Seriously, the only problem I have as far as function is a couple of mags need springs. Other than that it's more reliable than either of the two POS DSA's that I tried to replace it with. Maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket, because 2 POS DSA's and one *good* Hesse, all mine, that's gotta be a record for 1000 to 1 shots... Before the DSA lovers get all ip in arms, POS #1 had the X stock and a big brake so it was the worst cheekslapper in the world, got a nosebleed and eventually a mid-summer sinus infection from 20 rounds. POS #2 wasn't DSA's fault either, it was a stripped reciever sold to "Jerry's Jeeps" that was built into a parts gun, nicely refinished and sold as an Honest to goodness factory gun, despite being almost 2 degrees overtimed... Since DSA doesent mark their uppers as being recievers or factory guns, I have pretty much given up on them [new = too much $$, used = too uncertain] On my Hesse, I have even figured out a way to swap topcovers and retain my zero with a 2.5-10X scope, so I think I will keep this one...  Just kidding about the F-U... well, mostly kidding anyway.
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======================= Efficiency is doing things right. Effectiveness is doing the right things. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. ======================= |
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August 26, 2008, 08:14
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#6 |
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FALaholic #: 186 Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: SC
Posts: 4,934
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I am thinking by "speeding up" you mean being quicker during the match, not looking for ways to make the rifle function faster?
In my experience a low powered scope or Aimpoint type of sight might help you in competing faster.. But then again I have placed 2nd with a full length bbl FAL with iron sights at a combat rifle match before. The matches were all similar with distances no longer than 100 yards and once the 1st place was an M1A... in the same match I was 2nd place. The only way for you to get faster is practice... a lot.. and compete a lot. It is an apples and orange comparison, though, competing with AR's as their recoil is half what a FAL's is. IMHO there should be a large caliber and small caliber categories to level the playing field.. You need to ask yourself what your goal is here: Get better with your main gun Win matches. Either way practice the fundamentals of reloading until you are glass smooth, learn to aim fast and shoot slow and proper positioning with and without cover. Spare mag placement during match pressure is critical plus your developed reflex of reaching for them in the same spot every time. It generally is not the person with the best weapon that wins, but the one with the most skill. The only way to get skilled is repetitive practice of the proper kind. Practice what you will be doing. Then you will be faster.. If you want to be better with your main gun and increase your survival skills, then use your FAL. If you want to win matches get an AR.
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You cannot post 'Thou Shalt Not Steal,' 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery,' and 'Thou Shall Not Lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment. Last edited by Bruce Allen; August 26, 2008 at 14:39. |
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August 26, 2008, 13:25
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#7 | |
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FALaholic #: 10484 Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,765
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Quote:
Are your fingers long enough to drop your mag with your trigger finger, while not losing a good grip on the pistol grip? |
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August 26, 2008, 14:15
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#8 |
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Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
FALaholic #: 17136 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: oregon
Posts: 6,494
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All of the AR .308s I've ever been in rifle classes with have been pieces of crap. Can't finish the class, or taking instructors' time to make it run every hour or so. That being said, POF is making a piston-run 'AR' type .308 that is, in the word of Charlie Cutshaw (Small Arms Review, Special Weapons, etc.), the best .308 rifle ever made - bar none. Super low recoil, super accurate out of the box, cool-running, 100% reliable. There is only one draw-back:
$2799 retail. So you could have your cake and eat it too (AR accuracy, ergos, & low recoil + .308 performance + FAL reliability), but it's going to cost you. Get a real muzzle break, put an Aimpoint on it, and practice a bunch. Your FAL is good enough to win. Just my $0.02... Peace.
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"I love you, Pluskat..." - brunop "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." - Thomas Jefferson "The constitutions of most of our states [and of the United States] assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." - Thomas Jefferson |
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August 26, 2008, 20:13
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#9 |
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Bronze Contributor
FALaholic #: 11982 Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: FLORIDA
Posts: 13,984
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First off, I have shot 3-Gun several times with my FALS and have a BLAST...
I have way more fun (by my standards) with the FALS then the guys using the tactical wack-tical AR's... O.K. I like either a Narrow Foot BHO and an INCH Mag release, OR a WIDE Foot BHO with an Extended Metric MAG release.. Extended selector from DSA is the only way to fly IMHO... Personally I like the Z-Climb break, it is loud (I guess?) but I never noticed it while shooting... Anyway it does a Very good job of keping muzzle rise in check for second/third shots.. I think there are a number of good breaks out there so it should be pretty easy to find one you like.. Good tried and tested mags can make a HUGE difference in your speed and that's all there is to say about that.. "IF" you have a Couple 30's that feed/function well then use them.. If NOT then stick with 20's... Clean properly lubed gun and ammo that has proven reliable and accurate.. Good mag pouches that you have worked with will also pay dividends..
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"If your Gonna DIE, DIE Standing UP"!! The WOLVERINES....... |
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August 26, 2008, 21:02
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#10 | ||
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FALaholic #: 16376 Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 351
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Quote:
Quote:
In 3 gun I shoot FAL, 590, 1911, and that works for me. Yes, with the new mag release, I can drop the mag without losing much of my firing grip. I got the extended controls from someone here.. I need a sure-grip ergo grip, some 30 round mag springs and a narrow front sight, if anyone has any suggstions [google-fu is weak..]
__________________
======================= Efficiency is doing things right. Effectiveness is doing the right things. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. ======================= |
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August 26, 2008, 23:02
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#11 |
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FALaholic #: 10331 Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: west central Florida
Posts: 2,245
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what pistol grip do you have on it. I know the saw grip angle was alot better feeling than factory for me and it made reaching the controls easy for my short fingers.
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"Our conduct defines us." What every officer should live by. It's the tool behind the tool that makes the difference. ~ Chet |
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August 27, 2008, 05:49
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#12 | |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 10484 Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,765
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Quote:
I am in the process of making some breaks that are tuneable to try to fix that problem. |
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August 27, 2008, 09:47
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#13 |
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banned again
FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orygun
Posts: 4,838
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zero climbs are a toy .....had these type round here for 16 years ..no need to change .....double taps at 400yd 17" gong ..not too hard ...cross never leaves the target ......NO rise ....1/4 linear recoil.....shot em all ....made em all ,at the mach shop.....this is the best there is .... but your not into accsessories ...id do the rail job youll be running twice as fast wont have tips ripped off rounds ...as pointy things seem to fly better ...ehe .....i seem to remember a few guys (400 some) ...saying so ..memories are verry short here ... ..your gonna have better luck starting with a high end weapon .....and learn how to drive it ...skill isnt worth a frak if the gun fails ..yugo's dont win many races ...
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August 27, 2008, 22:26
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#14 |
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Banned again
FALaholic #: 29433 Join Date: May 2007
Location: Keithville,La.
Posts: 2,624
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ggiilliiee, I aint ready yet, But I plan on preforming this mod on mine. Ill need yer help on it.
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August 28, 2008, 10:55
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#15 |
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banned again
FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orygun
Posts: 4,838
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philip ...unless im being voilently raped by a group of swedish gymnists/massage therapists .....ill be here ......hehe ..mod is easy
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August 29, 2008, 01:45
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#16 | |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 16376 Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 351
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Quote:
__________________
======================= Efficiency is doing things right. Effectiveness is doing the right things. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. ======================= |
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August 29, 2008, 11:04
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#17 |
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banned again
FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orygun
Posts: 4,838
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dont think of it as a hijack ...what i just told ya ...noone on here woulda known ....wetsackers .....NO ...Guns and old ammo and the fat boys who cant run 20 yds without puking bisquits and gravy all over their rusty snausers while talkin dark op missions at jenny craig , magazine...eheh .... .HELL NO..and im glad they shortened the name
.if they did, would cost ya 300 dollars ..for the modification .. .me ....its free .. getting her to run faster with precision feeds and cyclic speed than any fal has run in 50 years .....id say thats a good deal .....some would rather just have the picanosey rail with a Frikin laser beam attached to its rail ...eheheh ...but that wont clear a jam and the RO standing over ya with a pair of pliars ... .enter the modification pagoda , and seek your destiny Falhopper ... ...YOU..... asked how to go fast ...well "THIS IS IT" !!! ..... .aint nobody on this site gonna get ya there .......but gigly ....and ya dont have to like me, to know what works ...just trying ta help ya out ..... ......I come in peace ....
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August 29, 2008, 11:08
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#18 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 4396 Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,723
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 ggiilliiee.....ya got a way with words.The ejector mod works.....so I'm gonna do the whitecross treatment to the rails too  Thanks
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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ablility to learn from the experience of other, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. Douglas Graham Life is drawing without an eraser Judge me all you want, just keep the verdict to yourself a positve attitude may not solve all your problems, but will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort ~ Herm |
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August 30, 2008, 11:18
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#19 |
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Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
FALaholic #: 17136 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: oregon
Posts: 6,494
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Rail mod works, too. Sneak up on it. Some guy here cratered a few months back - removed so much rail that the bolt falls through when there's no loaded mag in the well.
Uh-oh. :l Stone the rails first - just getting the park off of them and out of the receiver's carrier 'channels' will help. Break the edge top and bottom on the rails with a stone. Remove metal on those rails VERY slowly. My ggiilliiee-ified rifles work really well. Peace.
__________________
"I love you, Pluskat..." - brunop "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." - Thomas Jefferson "The constitutions of most of our states [and of the United States] assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." - Thomas Jefferson |
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August 30, 2008, 11:21
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#20 | |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 16376 Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 351
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Quote:
Seriously, looking at my FAL, I think I am already pretty close on the feed lip thing, I get no scratches on loaded brass, [but I do mangle soft/hollow points] I am going to look into this more this weekend. Someone on Barfcom suggested: Narrower front sight DSA hampton lower [for the rear sight adjustment] to which I asked about the drop-in rear.
__________________
======================= Efficiency is doing things right. Effectiveness is doing the right things. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. ======================= |
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August 31, 2008, 13:29
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#21 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 7202 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 5,126
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Vandenberg Free-Float Tube
Either the VB or the DNTC Brake Harris S model Bi-Pod (if allowed) Upper and Lower receivers fitted tight (along with the VB freefloat tube) for 1.5 MOA accuracy (with Aussie F4 Ball) 4.25 Lb Trigger The above - assuming the shooter is up to the task - will (and does) compete well against the DMPS .308s. Tactical Tim's rifle is on the right. The scope was an experiment - he shoots Tactical Iron class. 
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"So in the Libyan Fable it is told, That once an eagle, stricken with a dart, said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, it is by our own feathers, not others hands, are we now smitten." -Aeschylus |
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September 01, 2008, 10:03
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#22 |
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banned again
FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orygun
Posts: 4,838
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sober ..hehehe ...one guy out of 400 .... ....sober is when you kick in a door at my house with a stock weapon .....hehe.....
well guys look at it this way as the water rises again ....your on the wescog track alright ....if the rifle fails to feed you can always use the fancy bipods to dig the round out ......... son if the gun dont run .......you could have a freekin portable electric hedge trimmer on the pic rail with a pic of mother theresa on the receiver ......not gonna help much though when ya drop a round ...at that point in a shoot ya might as well just stop ....cause if your not shootin with a bunch of 300lbers with kentucky fried slippery fingers ...your done ....... easy question for the moders ...would ya want it back the way it was as stock function ....????......kkkeeeerrrrrssscchhhlluuunnnnk .sssccrraapppeeeessssmaaaashhhhccccccleeeeeaaaavvv eeeesssccccrrraaapppeeee THUD... BOOOOOOOM ..I CANT FIND MY LEGGS >>>>I CANT FIND MY LEGGS >!!!!..(rambo "75")..... ....personally i like the Gilliiee......"CHING"...sssssssssssss.......(sound of 500 yd milk jug exploding )..WHHHAAAACCCKKK..PPPPWWWOOOOOFFFFTT..sssqquuiiir rttsssssschhhinkkleeesppplaasssh.......so much better ....dont you ????...hehe i rest my case .........and "I come in peace" ... ..giveth a break where breaketh ist thoust due ..verrily .anyone can screw a simple fal kit together ....and alot of them run like ya screwed it .......hehehe Hey Brunop ...wait till ya try "the brake" ....enter the gillie pagoda .seek thine FAL-CHI..hehehe.....father makin chips today ???? Barry ....just messin ...if you decide to do it ....and ya got questions ...just ask ... 
Last edited by ggiilliiee; September 01, 2008 at 10:14. |
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September 02, 2008, 08:23
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#23 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 21446 Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: FL350 somewhere
Posts: 1,621
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I use this rifle in IPSC competition and the brake has made doubles a breeze. I can even double it faster than my SIG552. All down to the brake, and a good solid hold.
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September 03, 2008, 01:08
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#24 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 16376 Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 351
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That's cool, but the Peoples Republik of Illinois doesen't allow the plebs to have NFA so mine will need to be a bit longer...
 I have thought about going with a folding stock, but after having shot the DSA X-Stock, my cheek is dubious...
__________________
======================= Efficiency is doing things right. Effectiveness is doing the right things. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. ======================= |
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September 03, 2008, 10:31
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#25 |
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banned again
FALaholic #: 17179 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orygun
Posts: 4,838
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im with sig ...now add the rail mod and cut cyclic time in half ... .doubles come mucho el frikin fasto ....2 rounds in the air on a 400 yd 17" gong isnt out of the question ...ask how i know ..heheheheheh
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September 04, 2008, 00:37
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#26 | |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 17202 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 948
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Quote:
If it is--this is the only way to go for zero climb and quick f/u shots. |
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September 10, 2008, 10:17
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#27 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 14058 Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posts: 126
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Use 30 round magazines in the FAL. They help. I have a SMITH Enterprises MB on my carbine. There is no upward motion at all. Work on the magazines to make sure of them. Tinker with mags and BHO to make sure the BHO is activated. Practice mag changes. Practice left hand shooting around a barrier until you can do it without much thinking about it. Practice going prone and getting up. Us old guys can lose a lot of time with that. You might find that you need some stretching exercises to help with all that. Do the exercises every day. Practice clearing a malfunction. Clean and lubricate the rifle before each match especially the gas system. Don't clutter up the rifle with a lot of gadgets, lights, etc. Have it clean. Try a Ching Sling arrangement for better control in off-hand shooting. After sighting-in the rifle on the bench, shoot off-hand and re-adjust the sights. The sight picture is different and consequently bullet placement is different. Once sighted in, do all your shooting either prone, standing or kneeling, leave the bench for the benchrest crowd. Just my .02 cents.
32ndgeorgia
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"Defensive Works are bad for Morale" Arthur Ernest Percival, Lt. General GOC Just before a smaller Japaneese force defeats him in the battles of Malaya and Singapore, 1941-42. |
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