VA-ALERT: Picnic and Fairfax police make false arrest!

[W.E.G.]

VA-ALERT: Picnic and Fairfax police make false arrest!

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Van Cleave
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:32 AM
Subject: VA-ALERT: Picnic and Fairfax police make false arrest!

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1. The VCDL picnic - wow!

2. Three Fairfax County police officers prove the Keystone Kops are
alive and well

************************************************** ********
1. The VCDL picnic - wow!
************************************************** ********

Saturday's picnic in Newport News couldn't have been better! With
almost 200 attendees, the picnic was VCDL's largest yet.

The weather was incredible, too. Bright sunny day, with low humidity
and a continuous and fairly strong breeze kept everyone comfortable.

Members and non-members came from as far away as Bristol and even
Maryland!

The press was there filming for most of the day - more on that in an
upcoming alert.

Apparently a Newport News park ranger was called about a "man with a
gun." He took one look at well over 100 armed men and women
peacefully enjoying a picnic, took a few pictures of the pavilion, and
left. He never actually came to the pavilion. The pictures were
probably for his fellow rangers - "you aren't going to believe
this!" ;-)

Delegate Pogge, who carried a bill for VCDL this year, spoke to the
group. She also spoke briefly for Senator Ken Cuccinelli, who had
been invited but couldn't make it.

Many thanks to all those who made the picnic and the food line flow
smoothly, including: Board members Dennis O'Connor and Bruce Jackson,
EMs Ron and Jean Hyson, Ron Lilly, Pete Clark, Bonnie Clark, and Sandy
Ferris, and members Bill and Jan Donald, Ed Burton, Monty Oakes,
Coreena and William Taylor, and membership director Jacque Blundell
(who was updating memberships on the spot with a portable computer).

Some "celebrities" that dropped by were Chet and Debbie Szymechi,
Bill Mixon, and Danladi Moore. Chet was unlawfully arrested for open
carry and his wife assaulted last year by the Norfolk Police and
sheriff's deputies. Their federal lawsuit is progressing. Bill Mixon
was the VCDL member who was on the cover of Concealed Carry Magazine a
few months ago. Danladi was unlawfully arrested last year for not
identifying himself to officers when open carrying, having done
nothing wrong.

I was approached by Jo Whistler at the picnic and she discussed a
petition for the redress of grievances that GiveMeLiberty.org has put
together on the Second Amendment. I told her I would pass it on the
the alert list so that anyone who wanted to sign it, could. It does
require you to register to sign the petition:

http://tinyurl.com/4x2z4g

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2. Three Fairfax County police officers prove the Keystone Kops are
alive and well
************************************************** ********

We haven't had any issues with the Fairfax County police in quite a
while now. I have found them to be one of the best run police
agencies in Virginia.

However, three officers tarnished that image last week when they
unlawfully arrested a North Carolina resident who was legally carrying
a handgun and had a North Carolina CHP.

Hold on tight - this is a weird story.

The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a
charge which the gun owner disputes.

The gun owner, believing that he had to disclose he was lawfully armed
as they do in North Carolina, dutifully told the officer he had a NC
CHP and was indeed armed.

The officer seemed to ignore the statement, but very shortly two more
patrol units pulled up. The next thing the gun owner knew he is in a
"felony stop" mode. He was asked to walk backwards towards the
officers, who then disarmed and handcuffed him.

While trying to unloaded his gun, THEY DROPPED IT ONTO THE ROAD!

The two officers and a SERGEANT then proceeded to tell him that he was
under arrested for:

1. Having hollow point bullets, which they claimed were illegal in
Virginia (!)
2. Taking a loaded gun across the state line, which the gun owner
was told was a FELONY (!)
3. Having a concealed gun that the police said he couldn't have since
he was from North Carolina (!!)

His car and gun were impounded and he was taken off to a magistrate.

The magistrate looked at the charges and told the police officers that
they had just made a false arrest.

The officers pointed out the possession of hollow point bullets. The
magistrate asked, "are they teflon coated?"

"No," replied on of the officers.

"Then they are legal."

Trying to find something that would stick and justify the false
arrest, one of the officers said, "We couldn't verify that his North
Carolina permit is valid."

The magistrate looked at the permit, noticed the phone number on the
back where one can call to verify the permit, called the number, and
within a few minutes found out the permit was indeed valid.

The gun owner was ordered to be released.

After being released from custody, the gun owner was given a hard time
by another officer about getting his gun back, but he did finally get
it back.

If all of that isn't bad enough, the arresting officer went ahead and
gave the gun owner a ticket for the alleged offense of running a red
light!

In essence, with that brilliant move, the officer was practically
BEGGING the gun owner to PLEASE sue Fairfax Count for the false arrest!

I have already talked to my high-level contact with the Fairfax County
PD about this entire situation and the gun owner has filed a formal
complaint.

In the past, Fairfax County PD has been very good when such internal
investigations are required. Now we will wait and see what happens.

What is clear is that Fairfax County PD needs to educate its officers
on:

1. Possession of hollow point bullets
2. Reciprocity laws
3. Lawful carriage of firearms across state lines
4. Safe gun handling (a few years ago unsafe gun handling by an
officer cause a gun to discharge, killing an unarmed, handcuffed man)





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************************************************** *************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org
************************************************** *************************

[John Culver]

WOW. thats just freakin unbelieveable.

All three of those 'LEOs' need to spend a long time in a work camp.

[Azrial]

Sad story. I remember sitting in on an Academy legal class in South Carolina where the instructor was teaching that only the government and the military was allowed full automatic weapons.

I disputed his claim. I told him that SC law had recently been changed to allow any lawful citizen to own these firearms as long as they held a Federal Tax stamp. He disputed me in front of the class. I took the time to drive up to the statehouse and get a copy of the then new law.

Why, so that a whole class of police recruits did not walk out of there primed with the wrong information!

[John Culver]

Originally posted by Azrial
Sad story. I remember sitting in on an Academy legal class in South Carolina where the instructor was teaching that only the government and the military was allowed full automatic weapons.

I disputed his claim. I told him that SC law had recently been changed to allow any lawful citizen to own these firearms as long as they held a Federal Tax stamp. He disputed me in front of the class. I took the time to drive up to the statehouse and get a copy of the then new law.

Why, so that a whole class of police recruits did not walk out of there primed with the wrong information!

and how many students had he previously instructed with erronous information?

Rather sad

[Azrial]

Originally posted by John Culver
and how many students had he previously instructed with erronous information?

Rather sad

Most likely not any, the law had just changed in SC to allow private citizens to own full auto firearms. That is one of the reasons I was so happy with the timing of it!

[1911guy]

Morons

[2barearms]

Apparently they don't hire High School Graduates in the countryside. It also
appears that knowledge of your laws is not a prerequisite to enforce them.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by 2barearms
Apparently they don't hire High School Graduates in the countryside. It also
appears that knowledge of your laws is not a prerequisite to enforce them.

or teach them lol

Ignorance of the law is no excuse...unless you are a cop

[fastfreddy]

Exactly..... IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.

These 3 mall ninja rejects just did a mighty disservice to the badges of all honorable and professional officers by failing miserably in their duty. It is their professional duty to uphold the law, not make up laws out of ignorance. If they didn't know the law, they should have checked it out before "going JBT" on a peaceable citizen. There's no excuse and this must not be tolerated by the community.

A decent and professional leadership will send them back to the food court to hassle long haired teens in front of the Orange Julius booth.

BTW, our local police continue to refuse to take a report on the theft of my wife's debit card number and the use of it in a criminal enterprise. Maybe they're too busy hassling peaceable motorists.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by John Culver
or teach them lol

Ignorance of the law is no excuse...unless you are a cop

Cops do not know all the laws, and sometimes do make mistakes in the ones that they should know.

The problem with your statement is that no attorney, no law maker, nor any of you can claim to know all the laws in your state.

I believe that most officers try to be as sure as possible of the law before depriving someone of their civil liberties, even momentary. However these decisions often must be made quickly and under the worst of conditions.

There have been times I have seen an arrest that in court made the Judge, Prosecutor and Defense, with the aid of an entire legal library have a difficult time coming to consensus on the meaning of the statute itself.

And yet the lowest paid members of the system are all morons for not having every fact of the current law memorized for correct application at the moment?

[John Culver]

Originally posted by Azrial

Cops do not know all the laws, and sometimes do make mistakes in the ones that they should know.

The problem with your statement is that no attorney, no law maker, nor any of you can claim to know all the laws in your state.

I believe that most officers try to be as sure as possible of the law before depriving someone of their civil liberties, even momentary. However these decisions often must be made quickly and under the worst of conditions.

There have been times I have seen an arrest that in court made the Judge, Prosecutor and Defense, with the aid of an entire legal library have a difficult time coming to consensus on the meaning of the statute itself.

And yet the lowest paid members of the system are all morons for not having every fact of the current law memorized for correct application at the moment?

I never said they should know every law by heart.
But if you do not know the law, you do not arrest someone, and if by some chance you mjess up and do illegally arrest someone, you best be making ammends as quickly as possible.

You do not go ahead and hassle them about giving them their gun back, and cite them for running a light.

Mistakes DO happen, it comes down to how they were handled and the cops attitudes in handling them. These particular cops are an absolute disgust,

[2barearms]

Originally posted by Azrial

Cops do not know all the laws, and sometimes do make mistakes in the ones that they should know.

The problem with your statement is that no attorney, no law maker, nor any of you can claim to know all the laws in your state.

I believe that most officers try to be as sure as possible of the law before depriving someone of their civil liberties, even momentary. However these decisions often must be made quickly and under the worst of conditions.

There have been times I have seen an arrest that in court made the Judge, Prosecutor and Defense, with the aid of an entire legal library have a difficult time coming to consensus on the meaning of the statute itself.

And yet the lowest paid members of the system are all morons for not having every fact of the current law memorized for correct application at the moment?

I'm going to go against you on this one with respect to common laws about things like Drugs, Guns, Traffic, Domestic Violence, things that should be known
by the cop on the street. If you are going to deprive a citizen of his rights you damn well better know the law or don't arrest them. If you get sued it's your fault and you should pay the price, period. You are not above the law and are to be held to the highest standards of Honesty and Integrety.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by John Culver
......These particular cops are an absolute disgust,

As has been presented, these cops do not seem to be acting in good faith.

Originally posted by 2barearms
I'm going to go against you on this one with respect to common laws about things like Drugs, Guns, Traffic, Domestic Violence, things that should be known
by the cop on the street. If you are going to deprive a citizen of his rights you damn well better know the law or don't arrest them. If you get sued it's your fault and you should pay the price, period. You are not above the law and are to be held to the highest standards of Honesty and Integrety.

You would think, but the laws are handed down from the state legislature, a mixture of attorneys and not and as such are sometimes a hodgepodge of conflict. Laws also change all the time, if not by statute then by case law.

The mechanisms for bringing these changes to cops are sometimes fraught with problems and frankly seem an afterthought in the process. I was once arrested in SC for failing to wear a helmet while riding my motorcycle. The law had changed at Midnight and no one had told the cops. I had to get drug down to the station and make my case with the Sergeant before being allowed to go.

Unfortunately there are many times that clearly an arrest should be made now, not delayed for a warrant. Luckily the law says that an officer must only act in good faith, not be infallible. That is why we have a Judge and jury included in the process.

In the case presented the laws should have been pretty clear cut. But even of they weren't to these officers, there is no excuse for making a bad arrest, worse.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by Azrial

Luckily the law says that an officer must only act in good faith, not be infallible. That is why we have a Judge and jury included in the process.

And here again we have the double standard, as there is NO good faith provision for non LEO's.

You dont know the law? tough shyt you go to jail.
Cop doesnt know the law? well he acted in 'Good Faith' so its ok

[shlomo]

Originally posted by Azrial
The problem with your statement is that no attorney, no law maker, nor any of you can claim to know all the laws in your state.

...and there's something fundamentally wrong about that.

My view is that if I'm responsible for knowing them, then so is an LEO, and all the more so. If you're gonna deprive somebody of his liberty, you'd better be damned sure you KNOW you're right.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by John Culver

And here again we have the double standard, as there is NO good faith provision for non LEO's. ...

I don't know about that, I have never been big on charging people with offenses where a reasonable person would have thought what they were doing was right.

A good example in SC it is illegal to carry a firearm under the front seat of your vehicle. I can not tell you how many people I used to pull over that had a pistol there!

I never charged anyone with it, unless they were also committing a more serious crime.

The law abiding got treated to a quick course in carrying legally and then everyone was on there way.

If all an officer wants to do is lock people up there are plenty of reasons, but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself, what have I done to make my community a better place?

I like to be happy with the answer.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by shlomo
...and there's something fundamentally wrong about that.

My view is that if I'm responsible for knowing them, then so is an LEO, and all the more so. If you're gonna deprive somebody of his liberty, you'd better be damned sure you KNOW you're right.

Well you will get no argument from me that there are far too many laws in this country! I am with in favor of less law and more enforcement of the ones that we keep!

The officers actions must pass the test of probable cause and all actions must be made in good faith. An independent party, the Judge, decides whether the case meets those standards.

But beyond that, you are again asking for infallibility, something that no human I know is capable of.

No offense to the Catholics among us!

[Kyrottimus]

Originally posted by Azrial
...I am with in favor of less law and more enforcement of the ones that we keep!...

In that point, we are in complete agreement.

[aardq]

Azrial you said, "But beyond that, you are again asking for infallibility, something that no human I know is capable of."

It's true that no one is infallible, but then why does ever state that I know of require non leos to know all laws since they all have the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" provision. We can be held liable for something that we don't know, but the leos get a pass on not knowing the law? Isn't getting the up to date changes in law part of an leos job?

Regarding the laws on weapons, I'll disagree with you and think that all leos should know the state and local laws they are enforcing.

"No offense to the Catholics among us!"
Your original statement offered no offense, but as a Catholic, I take great offense at your attempt at humor with the "no offense" comment. You have just inferred that all Catholics think themselves as infallible.

Azrial you sound like a good leo, and you are a competent defender of leos and their actions, and have brought much insight to many discussions, but your credibility is getting very strained with me because you seem to automatically defend against every anti leo statement. You should pick your battles.

We rarely meet the professional officers, so much of our opinions are based on those that we have dealings with. There are a lot of inept, incompetent leos out there, and these are the people that we have to deal with.

Dan

[2barearms]

The area of laws and legality may be a little gray in some areas, but when
the government singles someone out for prosecution and then fails to make
it's case the citizen should be made whole and the person that caused it to happen and the government should have to pay the damages without an
appeal. The government can ruin a man just because it can. This is probably
the one issue that is stuck in my craw, anyone who starts out with nothing
knows how dangerous the government is to your freedom and this has more
to do with taking your money to defend yourself against a Tyrannical local
government than the federal system. I've seen some of these pitbull prosecutors that will tell you black is white, they'll never admit they were wrong even if it sends you to prison.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by aardq
It's true that no one is infallible, but then why does ever state that I know of require non leos to know all laws since they all have the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" provision. We can be held liable for something that we don't know, but the leos get a pass on not knowing the law? Isn't getting the up to date changes in law part of an leos job? Regarding the laws on weapons, I'll disagree with you and think that all leos should know the state and local laws they are enforcing.

The process for updating law enforcement officers varies by state and department. In no state I am aware of is it a law enforcement officers job to monitor all the courts and the state house for changes in the law. That information is usually prepared for them and disseminated in a number of ways. It is the officers responsibility to take advantage of the information and I think that most do a pretty good job. But no system is perfect and there are and will be problems like anything human based. I have sometimes learned of changes in the law by reading the newspaper before I got any material from the state.

"No offense to the Catholics among us!"
Your original statement offered no offense, but as a Catholic, I take great offense at your attempt at humor with the "no offense" comment. You have just inferred that all Catholics think themselves as infallible.

The Pope, not every Catholic, is said to be infallible, but as I said, I have never met him.

Azrial you sound like a good leo, and you are a competent defender of leos and their actions, and have brought much insight to many discussions, but your credibility is getting very strained with me because you seem to automatically defend against every anti leo statement. You should pick your battles.

Thanks for the advice, but there are a lot of fallacious claims about law enforcement here on the FAL-Files. Hence you will hear me disputing many, but not all. I am funny about insisting that all citizens of the US have a right to a trial by jury before being found guilty, even cops.

Many of the people making them are not that bright and rather paranoid. They want to feel that most law enforcement officers are conspiring to deprive them of their rights under the Second Amendment. Even though you have to be pretty damn delusional to be looking for gun grabbers on a gun board I provide them with an easy target for their fears. Really, it is just one of the many services I offer!

Why? I am somewhat confrontational by nature and I feel that their attempts at driving a wedge between the America gun owner and law enforcement, who most surveys and personal experience shows to be overwhelming pro 2nd Amendment, is not in the best interest of the future of this country or our civil rights. I have alway felt strongly about my profession. Besides I sometimes learn something from even the most antagonistic debater.

We rarely meet the professional officers, so much of our opinions are based on those that we have dealings with. There are a lot of inept, incompetent leos out there, and these are the people that we have to deal with. Dan

There are many professional law enforcement officers out there. Unfortunately many times they do not rise to the top. If you meet one I urge you to use your influence as a citizen to help them move up. Write letters to his Chief, and to the Mayor and/or City/County Council and tell them what a great job he is doing. Most will take the time to complain, but if you see a fellow doing a good job and want to help mold the department to be more like him, this is how to help do it. It is in all of our best interest!

[shlomo]

Originally posted by Azrial
But beyond that, you are again asking for infallibility, something that no human I know is capable of.

Actually, I'm not asking for infallibility. I'm asking that before a cop slams the iron on a guy, impounds his car, and starts a chain of events that can ruin the guy's life, he outhta be SURE he's right in what he's doing, and not just pulling outta his butt some stuff that he thinks he remembers from the academy in order to screw with somebody who flunked the attitude test, or because he's feeling particularly pissed off at the wife or the world today.

And just how did you know I'm Catholic?

[Azrial]

Originally posted by shlomo
Actually, I'm not asking for infallibility. I'm asking that before a cop slams the iron on a guy, impounds his car, and starts a chain of events that can ruin the guy's life, he outhta be SURE he's right in what he's doing, and not just pulling outta his butt some stuff that he thinks he remembers from the academy in order to screw with somebody who flunked the attitude test, or because he's feeling particularly pissed off at the wife or the world today.

And just how did you know I'm Catholic?

I agree with you. I think that it is a serious thing to deprive a man of his civil liberty, even for a short time. I think that an officer has a duty to use all methods reasonably available to him to prevent it from happening!

But if it does happen, and it was done in good faith and met the standard of probable cause in front of a judge I do not think that the officer should be hung, shot, sued, fired, or be sent straight to hell, as has been suggested here.

If it happens much he is most likely in the wrong line of work. It has honestly never happened to me and I pray it never does!

Some officers do enforce the law like some people talk about it here on the FAL-Files, they seem to make it up as they go! I guess that is fairly harmless here, but agree that we should be able to expect better from the police.

There are some terrible officers out there, but my position is that they do not represent the majority of the profession.

The Catholic thing? I told you I was good at what I do!

[Jailguard]

I feal that if a LEO makes an arrest he should know the law that he is making the arrest for. To many LEo can cite chapter and verse of the traffic code even the most recient laws and very few know what is involved in gun laws. I don't know about VA but in florida you neeed to put a statue number on the affidavit when you fill it out. so I would think you need to read it to make sure that it is the correct one. I had to read them when i filled them out to be sure I was quoting the correct one. It all depends on the officer and what he is willing to put the time into learning.

[shlomo]

Originally posted by Azrial

I agree with you. I think that it is a serious thing to deprive a man of his civil liberty, even for a short time. I think that an officer has a duty to use all methods reasonably available to him to prevent it from happening!

But if it does happen, and it was done in good faith and met the standard of probable cause in front of a judge I do not think that the officer should be hung, shot, sued, fired, or be sent straight to hell, as has been suggested here.

If it happens much he is most likely in the wrong line of work. It has honestly never happened to me and I pray it never does!

Some officers do enforce the law like some people talk about it here on the FAL-Files, they seem to make it up as they go! I guess that is fairly harmless here, but agree that we should be able to expect better from the police.

There are some terrible officers out there, but my position is that they do not represent the majority of the profession.

The Catholic thing? I told you I was good at what I do!

I think we're pretty much in agreement across the board on this. The example you gave about the SC helmet law was an excellent one--the guy was acting on a law he was sure he was right about. He just never got the word. And that is acting in good faith.

OTOH, when a cop stops somebody because his Spider-sense starts tingling, and then invents a bunch of niggling little crap to justify it, that really pisses me off, and that's the kind of stuff we all bitch about here, IMO.

Say, how much time can I do for impersonating a Hebrew? I hope it ain't eternity w/o parole.

[fastfreddy]

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood." -- James Madison


In this case, the police executed a false arrest and should be held liable for abusing their authority. A citizen was arrested having broken no law.

All criminals have excuses and claim "good faith". Every convict "meant to do the right thing" and "just made a mistake". These uniformed criminals are no different. Sweeping them from the force and prosecuting them would enhance the honor of the badge.

Originally posted by Azrial
There are some terrible officers out there, but my position is that they do not represent the majority of the profession.

Then stop making excuses for them and get them the hell out of there. If you have pride in the profession, they cannot be tolerated.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by shlomo
OTOH, when a cop stops somebody because his Spider-sense starts tingling, and then invents a bunch of niggling little crap to justify it, that really pisses me off, and that's the kind of stuff we all bitch about here, IMO.

I understand, but I am sure that many of you who have done what you do for a number of years and can look at a job or project and have a very excellent hunch as to the problem that you are looking at. The courts have long since recognized it and I believe that it is a valid tool of the job.

On the other hand you have a legal reason to pull someone over, or you do not. If he is "inventing" it, he is lying and I agree that is a problem on a few levels.

Say, how much time can I do for impersonating a Hebrew? I hope it ain't eternity w/o parole.

Have you considered Purgatory? The "Patagonia" of ethereal planes, more freedom and without all that "Central Authority" so hated by many of our brethren.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by fastfreddy
"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood." -- James Madison

Good quote and I fully agree.

In this case, the police executed a false arrest and should be held liable for abusing their authority. A citizen was arrested having broken no law.

As I previously said, as presented here, this case looks to have a few problems and I have to question the good faith of the officers involved.

A traffic stop was conducted and a ticket was issued for running a red light. Where everything goes to wrong is when the officer issuing the citation starts trying to make more out the case then there is. The officers should have been aware of VA's reciprocity, that hollowpoints are not armor piercing, that federal and state law allows a citizen to carry a firearm across state lines while traveling.

Dropping the man's pistol and giving him a citation really have nothing to do with the central issue.

Then stop making excuses for them and get them the hell out of there. If you have pride in the profession, they cannot be tolerated.

Who is making excuses for them? I am presenting another prospective on a story we have both read. Neither of us were there and neither was the writer. However, as presented here this looks to be a problem for the Fairfax Police.

On the other hand you frequently exasperate the problem of identifying real police misconduct by trying to tie everything you do not like together under that label. To hear you tell it every single time you see a cop speeding somewhere and you don't know the reason, or your family is pulled over for speeding the police involved are criminals and deserve to be fired and imprisoned!

I have removed bad cops from my profession and even worked to imprison a few! I have even spent a good bit of my own money doing so. What have you done that was not in support of your own family?

[J. Armstrong]

I think Azrial does both his profession and us a service - the former because he seems to have his head screwed on right and apparently uses ggod judgement, the latter because his viewpoints help us understand some of the nuances and complexities of the job.

Now if only there were more of the same

[fastfreddy]

Thanks for honoring your profession for our benefit.

I agree that Fairfax county needs to do the same for the benefit of their citizens.

I'm sure my efforts pale in comparison to one as selfless and as yourself.

[shlomo]

Originally posted by Azrial
Have you considered Purgatory? The "Patagonia" of ethereal planes, more freedom and without all that "Central Authority" so hated by many of our brethren.

I dunno. Purgatory implies a lotta purging goin' on. I don't wanta go into the afterlife and get turned over to an Archangel with an industrial-sized Fleet enema in his mitt.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by fastfreddy
Thanks for honoring your profession for our benefit.

I agree that Fairfax county needs to do the same for the benefit of their citizens.

I'm sure my efforts pale in comparison to one as selfless and as yourself.

While I detect the vaguest whiff of sarcasm there, I want you know I regret the tone I closed on. I am sure that you are very concerned about what it going on in our government. But you are not the only one. Is it beyond belief that there are actually officers that care about the direction our country is heading?

The thing that surprises me is that there is some expectation that I am so very different politically then yourself and most of the others that post here. I sometimes laugh about it, but am frequently a little concerned I represent the personification of evil to some here on the board!

Sometimes I hate posting an opinion as it tends to pull the thread off topic when my fan club sees it as a opportunity to attack "the police."

It was reported in the article that a Judge failed to find probable cause in the gun case! If this is true it goes a long way toward making me feel that these officers have erred! There is no justification for this type of overreaction because a citizen is exercising his rights to keep and bear arms.

When I opt opinions like the arrest itself will be most likely be held as legal and that dismissing a traffic citation would have been improper in this case please keep in mind that I did not personally create the system.

Thanks to any for their support, either by posts or PM. I will now try and retire from the thread.

[Kyrottimus]

Originally posted by Azrial
...
Have you considered Purgatory? The "Patagonia" of ethereal planes, more freedom and without all that "Central Authority" so hated by many of our brethren.

Har har...

[Buddy Lee]

Azrial,

You have said that you would try to retire from this thread, so I don't know if you will see this post and respond. However, I would like to present some observations from my perspective.

I think that a lot of the "dissention" about you can be summed up, IMHO, into one word:

Equivocation.

You "seem" to always support the underlying bad behavior and actions of your fellow officers without regard to the presented facts. Most of the people on this board (especially those who strongly oppose you), like you and myself, tend to deal in absolutes, right and wrong, without any consideration of areas of grey. This, I believe, is what upsets most people. Now you can state, and properly so, that all the facts are not in, that everyone is due their day in court, etc., but consider it from the other side. When, in this case, we are presented with facts and a clear decision in a magistrates court that the police exceeded their authority, violated rights and laws you continue to present statements such as the following:

"However, as presented here this looks to be a problem for the Fairfax Police."

"It was reported in the article that a Judge failed to find probable cause in the gun case! If this is true it goes a long way toward making me feel that these officers have erred! "

This is equivocation of their actions. You appear continue to be defending the police in this case when you KNOW (as told in the article) that they were in the wrong.

Furthermore, statements such as:

"What have you done that was not in support of your own family?"

only belittles everyone else. This is not a way to make friends and influence people. People don't have to meet your standard of citizenship to be protected from legal abuse, they only have to obey the law and expect those with authority to do the same.

Just some things for everyone to consider.

Buddy Lee

[ar15junkie]

Originally posted by Azrial

But if it does happen, and it was done in good faith and met the standard of probable cause in front of a judge I do not think that the officer should be hung, shot, sued, fired, or be sent straight to hell, as has been suggested here.

I think that the risk of being "hung, shot, sued, fired or sent straight to hell" would drive home the idea that officers should go the extra mile to confirm what the real law is.

How do consider this whole event as being "in good faith"? Three officers all of them ignorant of the law. Three officers who didn't bother to confirm what they thought the law was before taking this guy in? How is that good faith?

Before you get all defensive on me again, consider this. I'm only asking for these officers to be held to the same standard you claim to work by.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
.... I think that a lot of the "dissention" about you can be summed up, IMHO, into one word:

Equivocation.

You "seem" to always support the underlying bad behavior and actions of your fellow officers without regard to the presented facts.

There is no equivocation here, unless you are referring to to the writer of the original article, who states, "The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a charge which the gun owner disputes."

Here the reader is presented with the horrible spectacle of police officers staging fake traffic stops for the purpose of gun confiscation. Let us keep in mind that the article was written by an unnamed VCDL volunteer who apparently received all of their information for this story from a very biased source, the person arrested.

And this is what you call being presented with "the facts?" I don't give a damn about "shades of gray," I care about truth and proof and that is what is in question here!

When, in this case, we are presented with facts and a clear decision in a magistrates court that the police exceeded their authority, violated rights and laws you continue ....

The only clear decision by the magistrate’s court was that the officers failed to establish PC for the firearms charges and apparently the Judge did not require cash bail on the traffic offense. The arrest at this point, using the story as our only reference, is not in question as it is based on the traffic charge. If this is so where is the "violation of rights" that you allege?

While I suspect that you are arguing in good faith it is obvious that you are not aware of how the judicial process works in this matter.

What I understand is that you and some of the people of this board would like is to find this as proof of egregious conduct by the police, which it is not. I therefore refuse to participate in the festival of condemnation that many would like to indulge in.

Furthermore, statements such as:
"What have you done that was not in support of your own family?"
only belittles everyone else. This is not a way to make friends and influence people. People don't have to meet your standard of citizenship to be protected from legal abuse, they only have to obey the law and expect those with authority to do the same......

A pretty self serving statement on your part and frankly deserving of the same response, who the hell are you to condemn me?

When someone steps up to the plate to ask why don't I “do something” to “clean up” my profession, with no personal knowledge of me I do not feel that statement should go unchallenged. It also begs the question exactly what you have done that places you in a position to question my integrity.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by ar15junkie
I think that the risk of being "hung, shot, sued, fired or sent straight to hell" would drive home the idea that officers should go the extra mile to confirm what the real law is.

My statements concerning knowledge of the law was written in reference to the posts by John Culver, FastFreddy and 2bareArms, not in support of the officers in this story who were apparently inventing law as they went along. I suggest that read the whole post carefully.

Originally posted by ar15junkie
How do consider this whole event as being "in good faith"? Three officers all of them ignorant of the law. Three officers who didn't bother to confirm what they thought the law was before taking this guy in? How is that good faith?

If the story is to be believed, it's not. What I said, if you read the thread is, "As has been presented, these cops do not seem to be acting in good faith."

Originally posted by ar15junkie
Before you get all defensive on me again, consider this. I'm only asking for these officers to be held to the same standard you claim to work by.

Before you get all sanctimonious on me and question my honesty I suggest you learn to read.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Phillip Van Cleave at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/reply.p...post_id=221234
VCDL President wrote: Last week I received a call from Lt. O'Connor of the Fairfax PD. He is the one who was investigating the arrest of a NC CHP holder who had all charges (except for a red light ticket) dismissed by a magistrate.

Lt. O'Connor said his conclusion was that, indeed, the FFX PD did make a false arrest. However, a separate decision would be made as to what punishment, if any, would be applied to the three officers who were involved.

He said that he couldn't tell me if any disciplinary action gets taken.

They are keeping the charge for the red light active. (For crying out loud. The LEAST they could do is to drop that charge after all they unlawfully put that NC resident through!)

[John Culver]

However, a separate decision would be made as to what punishment, if any, would be applied to the three officers who were involved.

If any? Yes lets reward corrupt cops