7.62x25mm ?

[festus]

Anybody have any info on this caliber. My friend has about 5 boxes of this that he no longer needs as he had to sell the gun to pay bills.
Green plastic boxes of fifty interarms 86 gr. FMJ ( .30 mauser).
Made in USSR, packaged in Singapore. Boxes are sealed.
I can't use them.

[C-ya]

If it is 7.62x25, then folks with CZ-52s or TT-33s can use them. They are a hot little pistol round for fairly cheap, fun to shoot guns.

Never heard them called .30 Mauser before, but that doesn't mean they aren't.

[indy_Muaddib]

.30 Mauser is 7.63x25, the 7.62x25 is a Russian copy of that round.

a CZ-52 or TT-33 can chamber it and fire it, they are that close.

however the 7.62x25 has a much heavier powder charge, something like 50% more, you run one of those through a gun designed for .30 Mauser your going to lose a hand.

during WW2 the Germans and Finns used .30 Mauser as a substitute round in captured Russian PPSH41s.

if you want to get rid of them il take them off your hands.

got a CZ and a C96 Mauser i can run them through.

.30 Mauser



7.62x25



as for ballistics with the 86g round your looking at 1410 fps, 375 ft lbs (508 joules) at the muzzle.

about 15% higher muzzle energy than the .45ACP

[festus]

" Pistols designed and chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge include: 1896 7.63 mm mauser pistol and subsequent copies; 1930 7.62x25mm tokarev pistol and later copies; and astra models 900 and 903 pistols"

From the back of the box. So I guess these are not the hot machine gun rounds that should not be fired in the old broomhandles.

I will ask him how many boxes he has . PM me if interested . I am trying to help a neighbor that is down on his luck.

[Clark]

In 2000, load books said the hierarchy of strength was:
1) CZ52
2) Tokarevs
3) C-96

I now know that it is really:
1) Tokarevs
2) C-96
3) CZ52


What does it all mean?
Recent load books have reduced the pressure on all handloads for all three pistols to lower than the lowest common denominator. The only remaining risk is that surplus Tokarev ammo should not be shot in CZ52s.

[Glucker]

The ammo sounds very similar to what I had in the early 80's, although the plastic boxes were black, not green. Otherwise the description is the same.

I understood it to be ammo for the Tokarev, etc., which is technically a different round than the 7.63 Mauser, even if they might be outwardly interchangeable in some guns. The only rounds of it I fired were through a Tokarev.

Whatever it was, about 50% of the rounds were dead. Wouldn't fire no matter how many hammer strikes they underwent. That being 20 something years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if the failure to fire rate was even higher now.

[CRShooter32]

Originally posted by Clark
The only remaining risk is that surplus Tokarev ammo should not be shot in CZ52s.

Why is that? Do you ralize there are two grades of 7.62x25 surplus on the amrket, both pistol and subgun loads?

I've been told that the surplus 7.62x25 ammo is okay in the CZ52, considering the robust construction of said pistol, and that one has to be careful when buying surplus for the Tokarev pistol, the subgun loads will blow them apart.

According to CZ, the 52s were made to handle the hotter sub gun ammo, so the Chechs did not have to worry about production of two different grades of ammo. The cost factor being a major part, considering the financial status of the combloc countries in those days was poor to worse.

Or is this another of your own determinations made when you beefed up powder charges, and really hot loaded a 7.62x25 round to purposley blow up a CZ52, so you could come here and claim to be some sort of expert, and dis a fine, fun to shoot pistol?

BTW, I use factory new S&B in my CZ52. Gotta feed the Chech pistol a diet of Chech ammo.

[ammolab]

"so the Chechs did not have to worry about production of two different grades of ammo."

Nope..and neither did anyone else...as they all made PISTOL ammo and shot it their Pistols AND submachine guns. Sure there is Tokarev pistol ammo and Mauser pistol ammo, two total different cartridges with similar dimentions, but no nation made two different grades (pistol/SMG) of 7.62x25mm Tok ammo.

That repacked ammo in the green box is old Soviet 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammo and is the stuff that should NOT be fired in Broomhandle pistols in spite of the box label put on there by Intearms.

[Clark]

We tested at JPL CZ52 barrels and the hardness measured from RC25 to RC47.

The chamber is ~.060" thick on the bottom where the relief is milled out for the rollers.

I blew a few up in 2000.
I have never been able to blow up any other semi auto pistol barrels in work ups, and I have tested lots of pistol designs.

Someone got hurt at my range standing near a CZ52 that was shooting surplus ammo when it blew up in 2005.

What does it all mean?
Some CZ52s are going to blow up, so they had to change the books.
Eastern block Tokarev ammo is 42,000 c.u.p, which is a nightmare for liability in the US, given the CZ52 weak design.

[justashooter]

the bulgarian subgun ammo is rated hot, for subguns only. the czech ammo is designed for the CZ24/26 and 52 types. the romanian ammo is lower velocity and designed for tokarevs.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by justashooter
the bulgarian subgun ammo is rated hot, for subguns only. the czech ammo is designed for the CZ24/26 and 52 types. the romanian ammo is lower velocity and designed for tokarevs.

Quite hard primers on the bulgarian as well (typical of subgun ammo) so I shoot lots of it in my PPSH.

[ammolab]

Originally posted by John Culver


Quite hard primers on the bulgarian as well (typical of subgun ammo) so I shoot lots of it in my PPSH.

Bulgarian "Subgun ammo"....were do you guys get this idea? What ammo do you guys think the Bulgarians shot in their Tokarev pistols? This ammo is packed in 16rd paper paks (for two Tokarev pistol mags) and labeled for pistols.

"Subgun ammo" is issue pistol ammo......and those primers are not "hard"..

They are FIFTY years OLD!

[John Culver]

Originally posted by ammolab


Bulgarian "Subgun ammo"....were do you guys get this idea? What ammo do you guys think the Bulgarians shot in their Tokarev pistols? This ammo is packed in 16rd paper paks (for two Tokarev pistol mags) and labeled for pistols.

"Subgun ammo" is issue pistol ammo......and those primers are not "hard"..

They are FIFTY years OLD!

LOL there is that, it was used in their PPSH's as well. (I shoot it in my Tok, and my CZ52 as well) both of which it does fine in mind you.

I keep the cleaner romanian for a rainy day.

[justashooter]

Originally posted by ammolab


Bulgarian "Subgun ammo"....were do you guys get this idea? What ammo do you guys think the Bulgarians shot in their Tokarev pistols? This ammo is packed in 16rd paper paks (for two Tokarev pistol mags) and labeled for pistols.

"Subgun ammo" is issue pistol ammo......and those primers are not "hard"..

They are FIFTY years OLD!

the term machinepistol, in various languages, is used to describe subguns in many european and european influenced countries. ammo for these would be differentiated from rifle ammo (often both are same caliber) by being marked as "pistol" ammo, whether it was suitable for use in pistols, or not.

we all know that ammo in the same case/caliber may be tailored for specific purposes. plenty of examples of that in production from many countries. the adaptation of the 7.63X25 (mauser) to 7.62X25 (tokarev), without significant change in anything other than loading pressure is a great example.

as for bulgarian tokarevs, that's a new one on me. as far as i know, the bulgarians never produced tokarevs. we all know about the makarovs (1947 design) they produced after coming under russian influence (1946), but i have never heard of or seen a bulgarian tokarev. the design predates the russian influence. perhaps they issued russian manufactured tokarevs as a stopgap after 1946 until makarovs became available, but i doubt it.

bulgaria produced and issued the Frommer Stop in 1912 (1919), which used a high velocity loading in the 7.65 browning short (7.65X17, or 32 ACP). production ceased in 1929, but the gun remained in military and police service until 1945, presumably being replaced by the makarov. so it seems that bulgaria never fielded a pistol in 7.62X25.

reports from recent years in which velocity tests were made indicate that the bulgarian ammo runs much hotter than any other 7.62X25 recently available in bulk in the US. czech is slower, followed by chinese, then romanian. czech is usually found loaded in strippers for use with the mag loader on the side of a cz24/26.

the CZ52 was reportedly designed as a stronger gun than the tokarev option, but we all know that the czechs were proud designer/producers, and were just thumbing their noses at the russians in the adoption of the CZ24, CZ52, and CZ58 series guns.

regarding hard primers: subgun ammo should have hard primers. it is designed this way for a reason. the hard primer makes the pre-ignition sequence of an open bolt subgun safer and more reliable. as the fixed firing pin bolt travels forward and picks up a round, the firing pin comes into contact with the primer long before (micro-seconds are a long time when the cyclic rate is 800 bpm) the cartridge is safely contained in the chamber.

softer primers in subgun use may result in out-of-battery firing, yeilding bulges and splitting of the casewall just forward of the base web of the case. this as a result of primer detonation before the case is far enough into chamber. designers intended the cartridge to fire while the bolt still had forward momentum, but after enough of the case was inserted into chamber to enclose the thinner section of casewall ahead of the web. modern subgun shooters are aware of this, and in the interest of safety prefer surplus to handloads. uzi shooters can tell you about izzy and south african 9mm subgun ammo in detail.

I have seen type 64 (blowback machined receiver), and 79 (downsized version of the AK47) in use here in China, as well as type 54(tokarev) pistols. I assume they all use the same ammo type. next time i see one i'll ask.

[Clark]

[i]Originally posted by justashooter

the CZ52 was reportedly designed as a stronger gun than the tokarev option, but we all know that the czechs were proud designer/producers, and were just thumbing their noses at the russians in the adoption of the CZ24, CZ52, and CZ58 series guns.

Sierra handgun handload manual repeated that myth, and I wrote them about it. They said they were just printing what THEY read.

Jan Libourel, in a magazine he edits, repeated that myth. When I wrote him, he responded that he just repeated what HE read.

What does it all mean?
The CZ52 is the only semi auto handgun regularly described as strong in the literature, and it is also the only semi auto handgun ever made that is weaker than the brass it uses. That is an irony.

[masman]

just when i was getting bored with 411man our old buddy clark comes back
im sure somewhere in this thread he'll tell those who missed it the first time about his 7.62x25 rounds he loaded to a level just below " Little Boy" that he had success shooting in a broomhandle or a tokerev but reduced a CZ-52 to a smoking pile of junk.
for those of you who havent had the pleasure of reading some of this wingnuts threads in the past dont use any loading this guy suggest some are downright
dangerous. i thought i heard a loud thump to the west it was FWRA rolling in his grave

[bill3542]

Ive run a number of different ammo types through my CZ-52 and the only problem i have noticed was hard primers on some yugo and romanian ammo.
S&B ammo works great in mine and the price is decent on it.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by masman
just when i was getting bored with 411man our old buddy clark comes back
im sure somewhere in this thread he'll tell those who missed it the first time about his 7.62x25 rounds he loaded to a level just below " Little Boy" that he had success shooting in a broomhandle or a tokerev but reduced a CZ-52 to a smoking pile of junk.
for those of you who havent had the pleasure of reading some of this wingnuts threads in the past dont use any loading this guy suggest some are downright
dangerous. i thought i heard a loud thump to the west it was FWRA rolling in his grave

Crazy or not he does have a point, the CZ52's FAILED when the TT33's did not (I own both and can see why)

[justashooter]

http://imageevent.com/willyp/russian...okarevvariants

an interesting page detailing TT30 and 33 variants, including the hungarian and yugo, which are rarely seen. still no sign of a bulgarian TT33. anybody have one?

[ammolab]

Originally posted by justashooter
http://imageevent.com/willyp/russian...okarevvariants

an interesting page detailing TT30 and 33 variants, including the hungarian and yugo, which are rarely seen. still no sign of a bulgarian TT33. anybody have one?

Bulgarians used Soviet tt33s.... they did not produce their own variation. They used Soviet Moisin Nagants as well for many years before they produced their own AK47 variant (first built in 1958). The Makarov pistol was produced in Bulgaria MANY years after it entered Soviet use ( Arsenal production of Makarov began in 1972 ). TT33s served post WW2 until replaced by Makarovs.

Dates of Bulgarian recent arms introduction here.... http://www.arsenalinc.com/history.htm

[ONG]

Originally posted by John Culver


Crazy or not he does have a point, the CZ52's FAILED when the TT33's did not (I own both and can see why)

John how did the CZ's fail? I too have both, prefer to shoot the TT33s but have not experienced any problems with either one.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by ONG


John how did the CZ's fail? I too have both, prefer to shoot the TT33s but have not experienced any problems with either one.

Typically barrel failures, but also misshapen rollers (which is a known issue, and why they sell hardened rollers now)

Mine so far has shot good as well, but I dont put more then a few hundred rounds through it a month.

For normal use they are fine. What Clark has been trying to say is that the common belief that they are stronger then other pistols is simply NOT true.

[masman]

Originally posted by John Culver


What Clark has been trying to say is that the common belief that they are stronger then other pistols is simply NOT true.

true or not the methods he used to prove his case were/are dangerous. if the CZ-52 are the hand bombs that Clark claims then Century Arms and the others who imported them should be deluged with lawsuits.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by masman


true or not the methods he used to prove his case were/are dangerous. if the CZ-52 are the hand bombs that Clark claims then Century Arms and the others who imported them should be deluged with lawsuits.

Yah definately dangerous, better him then me, but the results can not be thrown out just because he tested in less then safe manner.

They seemed to last ok in the Czech army (although with several FTR's and lots of new rollers)

[Clark]

Originally posted by masman


true or not the methods he used to prove his case were/are dangerous. if the CZ-52 are the hand bombs that Clark claims then Century Arms and the others who imported them should be deluged with lawsuits.

RC hardness from 25 to 47.
.060" thick chamber bottoms.
Regularly blow up with surplus ammo.

That is enough to prove the case, but being the engineer t hat I am, I also include the info on what it took to blow a couple up on purpose.

I did the same sort of analysis and testing for exploding Sangamo capacitors in 1984.
I guess they did get out out of buisness then, but not over law suits, but because no one would buy them any more.


What does it all mean?
I use standard engineering practices to get to the bottom of things.
Masman needs to get over it.