50 BMG versus Russian 12.7

jefferyc22 · January 23, 2008, 03:45

Anyone know the specs on the 12.7 versus the 50 BMG?
I have never seen any ballistic data on the 12.7........by looking at the physical size of a 12.7 in your hand versus the 50 BMG one would think it superior to the 50 BMG.

lew · January 23, 2008, 09:51

According to Machineguns of the World (I think that's what it is) by Ian Hogg, the BMG is actually more powerful. I can't recall the exact number and I don't have the book on hand.

ETA: IIRC, the BMG cartridge had a little less than 10% more muzzle energy than the Russian round. There's a table in the back of the book.

Wadman · January 23, 2008, 23:14

The Soviet 12.7 x 108 cartridge is rated at about 2800 fps.

jefferyc22 · January 23, 2008, 23:16

so which came first? is the 12.7 a little undeloaded like the 54R?

loneeagle308 · January 23, 2008, 23:38

I think every small cartridge the Soviets came out with is underloaded compared to its NATO rival.

jefferyc22 · January 23, 2008, 23:40

Quote:

Originally posted by loneeagle308
I think every small cartridge the Soviets came out with is underloaded compared to its NATO rival.

7.62X39 is arguably better than our cute little 5.56

loneeagle308 · January 23, 2008, 23:45

Quote:

Originally posted by jefferyc22

7.62X39 is arguably better than our cute little 5.56

You're comparing apples to oranges.
7.62 x51 vs 7.62 x 39
5.56xxx vs 5.45 x 39

jefferyc22 · January 23, 2008, 23:47

Quote:

Originally posted by loneeagle308

You're comparing apples to oranges.
7.62 x51 vs 7.62 x 39
5.56xxx vs 5.45 x 39

In that case 5.45X39 has been shown to penetrate better than 5.56 in many tests..........look it up on youtube or liveleak

MasterGunner · January 25, 2008, 22:12

The .50 BMG cartridge (12,7x99 NATO) was designed by John M. Browning in response to a request by General John Pershing for a heavy caliber gun similar to the French 13mm Hotchkiss anti-balloon gun. Browning scaled-up the venerable .30-06 round and scaled-up his .30 caliber gun to the new round. The prototype watercooled guns appeared in 1919 and it was adopted by the U.S. Armed Forces in 1921. The M1921 guns were watercooled, but the design was soon improved into the AN/M2 configuration in the early 1930's. The AN/M2 receiver group formed the basis for three types of .50 caliber machine guns: (1) AN/M2 watercooled, (2) AN/M2 heavy barrel aircooled, and (3) AN/M2 aircraft aircooled.

The watercooled guns were used as light anti-aircraft weapons, but they were soon supplanted by the Navy in 1942 by the 20x110RB AA round of the Oerlikon gun. The Army continued to use the .50 for light anti-aircraft, but the watercooled guns were progressively modified to the heavy barreled aircooled configuration. Watercooled guns had a cyclic rate of 650-750 rds/minute sustained fire thanks to its watercooling. While the watercooling gave the gun an impressive sustained fire capability (as long as the cooling water was there), the Watercooled guns were extremely heavy at 121 pounds (without coolant).

The AN/M2 heavy barrel guns were used against lightly armored ground targets, personnel, and for anti-aircraft defense by vehicles. Cyclic rate was between 450 and 550 rds/minute. The gun could be configured as a fixed, co-axial machine gun to a larger gun, solenoid or trigger fired, or as a flexible heavy machine gun. Weight of the gun was 82 pounds.

The AN/M2 aircraft guns were used in both fixed and flexible installations. The guns could be synchronized to fire through the propeller arc of fighter aircraft. Aircraft guns had a shorter, lighter barrel than either the watercooled or heavy barrel guns and had a higher cyclic rate of 850 to 950 rds/minute. Weight of the gun was 64 pounds.

Post WW2, the AN/M2 aircraft gun was improved to the AN/M3. There were some internal changes to the run for faster firing and cyclic rate increased to 1,050 to 1,150 rds/minute. In recent years, FN Herstal USA has offered remanufactured AN/M3 guns to the Navy and Marines. These guns, called the M3M are fitted to various Navy and Marine helicopters as ramp guns. Cyclic remains the same as the AN/M3, but reliability has been upped and the guns now fire from an open bolt, rather than a closed bolt.

The 12,7x99 NATO is loaded with bullets ranging from 675 grains to 800 grain long range sniping rounds. Muzzle velocity averages approximately 2,900 fps. The 675 grain projectile is the fastest at an average of 3,044 fps.

The Russian 12,7x108 was developed for the DShK 1938/46 heavy machine gun. Designed by Vasily Degtyaryev and Georgi Shpagin. Original guns were called the DK and were in-service in limited numbers by 1933. The DK was changed from a magazine-fed gun to a belt-fed gun and adopted by Russia in 1938. Gas operated, it was the primary heavy machine gun of the Russians during the Second World War. It was modernized in 1946 to become the DShkM (or modernized). Weight of the DShK is approximately 75 pounds for the gun without mount and ammunition.

The average 12,7x108 round fires a 744 grain bullet at 2,685 fps. Using machine guns are the Combloc DShK, DShKM, NSV, and Kord. It is also used by the Russian V-94, KSVK, and Hungarian Gepard anti-materiel and sniper rifles.

jefferyc22 · January 26, 2008, 02:02

Thanks Gunner..............I have always been curious about the dates and specs versus the .50 BMG.

Looks like they are about the same energy wise.

I got FN's catalog awhile ago and man.............the M3 looks VERY wicked and is a long overdue upgrade to the Ma deuce.

January 23, 2008, 03:45	#1
jefferyc22 Banned FALaholic #: 18245 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: PNW Posts: 3,445	50 BMG versus Russian 12.7 Anyone know the specs on the 12.7 versus the 50 BMG? I have never seen any ballistic data on the 12.7........by looking at the physical size of a 12.7 in your hand versus the 50 BMG one would think it superior to the 50 BMG.

January 23, 2008, 09:51	#2
lew Registered FALaholic #: 16727 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: somewhere Posts: 5,759	According to Machineguns of the World (I think that's what it is) by Ian Hogg, the BMG is actually more powerful. I can't recall the exact number and I don't have the book on hand. ETA: IIRC, the BMG cartridge had a little less than 10% more muzzle energy than the Russian round. There's a table in the back of the book. Last edited by lew; January 23, 2008 at 09:57.

January 23, 2008, 23:14	#3
Wadman Registered FALaholic #: 1095 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: North East Illinois Posts: 2,820	The Soviet 12.7 x 108 cartridge is rated at about 2800 fps. __________________ The low road is frequently a four lane highway with no speed limit. Help Save the Kitties

January 25, 2008, 22:12	#9
MasterGunner Registered FALaholic #: 15054 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 501	The .50 BMG cartridge (12,7x99 NATO) was designed by John M. Browning in response to a request by General John Pershing for a heavy caliber gun similar to the French 13mm Hotchkiss anti-balloon gun. Browning scaled-up the venerable .30-06 round and scaled-up his .30 caliber gun to the new round. The prototype watercooled guns appeared in 1919 and it was adopted by the U.S. Armed Forces in 1921. The M1921 guns were watercooled, but the design was soon improved into the AN/M2 configuration in the early 1930's. The AN/M2 receiver group formed the basis for three types of .50 caliber machine guns: (1) AN/M2 watercooled, (2) AN/M2 heavy barrel aircooled, and (3) AN/M2 aircraft aircooled. The watercooled guns were used as light anti-aircraft weapons, but they were soon supplanted by the Navy in 1942 by the 20x110RB AA round of the Oerlikon gun. The Army continued to use the .50 for light anti-aircraft, but the watercooled guns were progressively modified to the heavy barreled aircooled configuration. Watercooled guns had a cyclic rate of 650-750 rds/minute sustained fire thanks to its watercooling. While the watercooling gave the gun an impressive sustained fire capability (as long as the cooling water was there), the Watercooled guns were extremely heavy at 121 pounds (without coolant). The AN/M2 heavy barrel guns were used against lightly armored ground targets, personnel, and for anti-aircraft defense by vehicles. Cyclic rate was between 450 and 550 rds/minute. The gun could be configured as a fixed, co-axial machine gun to a larger gun, solenoid or trigger fired, or as a flexible heavy machine gun. Weight of the gun was 82 pounds. The AN/M2 aircraft guns were used in both fixed and flexible installations. The guns could be synchronized to fire through the propeller arc of fighter aircraft. Aircraft guns had a shorter, lighter barrel than either the watercooled or heavy barrel guns and had a higher cyclic rate of 850 to 950 rds/minute. Weight of the gun was 64 pounds. Post WW2, the AN/M2 aircraft gun was improved to the AN/M3. There were some internal changes to the run for faster firing and cyclic rate increased to 1,050 to 1,150 rds/minute. In recent years, FN Herstal USA has offered remanufactured AN/M3 guns to the Navy and Marines. These guns, called the M3M are fitted to various Navy and Marine helicopters as ramp guns. Cyclic remains the same as the AN/M3, but reliability has been upped and the guns now fire from an open bolt, rather than a closed bolt. The 12,7x99 NATO is loaded with bullets ranging from 675 grains to 800 grain long range sniping rounds. Muzzle velocity averages approximately 2,900 fps. The 675 grain projectile is the fastest at an average of 3,044 fps. The Russian 12,7x108 was developed for the DShK 1938/46 heavy machine gun. Designed by Vasily Degtyaryev and Georgi Shpagin. Original guns were called the DK and were in-service in limited numbers by 1933. The DK was changed from a magazine-fed gun to a belt-fed gun and adopted by Russia in 1938. Gas operated, it was the primary heavy machine gun of the Russians during the Second World War. It was modernized in 1946 to become the DShkM (or modernized). Weight of the DShK is approximately 75 pounds for the gun without mount and ammunition. The average 12,7x108 round fires a 744 grain bullet at 2,685 fps. Using machine guns are the Combloc DShK, DShKM, NSV, and Kord. It is also used by the Russian V-94, KSVK, and Hungarian Gepard anti-materiel and sniper rifles. __________________ Robert H. Stoner

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January 23, 2008, 23:16	#4
jefferyc22 Banned FALaholic #: 18245 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: PNW Posts: 3,445	so which came first? is the 12.7 a little undeloaded like the 54R?

January 23, 2008, 23:38	#5
loneeagle308 Registered FALaholic #: 3246 Join Date: May 2001 Location: in a trailer next to the runway, Naval Air Station, North Island. Posts: 888	I think every small cartridge the Soviets came out with is underloaded compared to its NATO rival.

January 26, 2008, 02:02	#10
jefferyc22 Banned FALaholic #: 18245 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: PNW Posts: 3,445	Thanks Gunner..............I have always been curious about the dates and specs versus the .50 BMG. Looks like they are about the same energy wise. I got FN's catalog awhile ago and man.............the M3 looks VERY wicked and is a long overdue upgrade to the Ma deuce.