What size generator?

[garybob]

Ok,it's time to seriously start looking at a generator for the house just in case. For a normal bread and butter type house with average use what size should I be looking at. I've been seing diferent sizes in the papers around here. From 1500 watts to 8,000 watts. Can anyone help me start narrowing my search? Thanx.

[mosbysmen]

figure out what you really have to run , water well ? furnace ? lights .fridge, freezer
make a list of the must have stuff then go on line and there are lists that tell you how much power they need to run added it up and then go upsize on the generator

remember some stuff takes a lot more current to get it running and then less to keep it running ,you have to have enough watts to get it started .

down here we can live without heat , but its hard to sleep without a/c so we have one window unit that we can put in and everyone sleeps in the same room..

do not run your computer without out a quality surge supressor or it will get
ruined .. our microwave was run without one and it works fine, but you can read any of the digital screen writing anymore.

we use lots of florescent and led lights when the powers out to save watts.
we also run a battery charger and charge up deepcycle batterys so we can shut the genny down and still have some power with a inverter ..

we have a battery powered tv to watch the news with when the powers out.

make sure you use stabil in your fuel and when your done using it turn the fuel supply off and let the genny run it self dry..

you should run it once a month and let it make electricty i have been told the generator can forget how if its not excersized every so often .

[Sig220]

You should add up your projected use in watts, add some for insurance and go from there. Be aware that some things require a higher startup wattage then they do once they get running........think electrical motors like those in a freezer, refrigerator and the like. Also small items that can use a disapproprate amount of electricty for their size.........like coffee pots and microwaves.

Be honest in your assessment(sp), add some for a safety margin and there you have it!

If you plan on running a computer, you need to pay mind to the "clean" power gensets or protect your equipment from spikes and dives and the like in the power they get.

Good Luck!

[RG Coburn]

My main genny is 5000 watts,Honda. Back ups to that are 1000 watts. Sometimes its nice to be able to just run a few items,and not need the full 5000,so I run the little guys. Have three of those. Honda,Honda,Honda...yes...they're that good.

[Bruce Allen]

Please consider your fuel needs also..

The larger the generator the more fuel it consumes, obviously, but proper and adequate fuel storage is a serious issue..


You just can't set 100 gallons of gasoline anywhere, and inside your primary residence is not acceptable..

Already mentioned is Stabil, which is great stuff.. I once kept over 100 gallons of gas treated with it for over 2 years and it remained perfect.

Also for consideration is the electical hookup and proper transfer switches.

A decent generator system is somewhat costly, but only for the inital setup.

I have had and used a 7000 wt generator since 1999, once for a 7 day stretch (2005).

Several times my lights were the only ones shining as far as I could see.

Makes for a good feeling..

[garybob]

Thanx for the ifo so far guys. It appears I need to do some homework here.

[SHARPSHOOTER]

If your going to get a emergency generator get one for the purpose of actually running a home with an ATS. If you can digest the price get one with computer control that will perform it's own diagnostics and power it self up on a schedule. Mine does it about once a week. You still have to maintain it but it is nice to have all the features. DO NOT get a gas or diesel generator , get one that runs on LP or Natural Gas. Neither one spoils and they are always ready, I have a 20kw which will power everything on my property. I have said it before, but you get what you pay for and generators are no exception. Where I live Natural Gas is not an option so we use LP Gas and a 500 gallon tank. The last time I filled it is when I purchased it 2 years ago. Same time I got the generator. Other advice I can offer is to have a professional electrician wire it into your your homes breaker box. I understand you may have economic concerns but I urge you to buy the biggest and best unit you can possible afford and do not go with a gas or diesel generator. LP or Natural Gas is the best route.

[FN74]

Originally posted by SHARPSHOOTER
If your going to get a emergency generator get one for the purpose of actually running a home with an ATS. If you can digest the price get one with computer control that will perform it's own diagnostics and power it self up on a schedule. Mine does it about once a week. You still have to maintain it but it is nice to have all the features. DO NOT get a gas or diesel generator , get one that runs on LP or Natural Gas. Neither one spoils and they are always ready, I have a 20kw which will power everything on my property. I have said it before, but you get what you pay for and generators are no exception. Where I live Natural Gas is not an option so we use LP Gas and a 500 gallon tank. The last time I filled it is when I purchased it 2 years ago. Same time I got the generator. Other advice I can offer is to have a professional electrician wire it into your your homes breaker box. I understand you may have economic concerns but I urge you to buy the biggest and best unit you can possible afford and do not go with a gas or diesel generator. LP or Natural Gas is the best route.

Ditto - this was the same advice I was going to offer, but it's pretty much covered. Do keep in mind that sam's club carries some nice LP units for reasonable prices. Also some propane tanks can be buried.

[mb419]

We just went through a week without power up here on the coast of Washington, and I used a 3000 watt Honda gen. to run our fridge, freezer, and an electric space heater for the whole week continuously. We just filled up the tub with water to flush the toilets, and when it got low I would unplug the freezer and run the pump at the well. It seemed to work out fine. I'm not sure how big the fuel tank is in the gen. (around 3 gallons, I think), but it would run for around 12-13 hours at a time until I needed to fill up. And I would whole heartedly recommend buying a Honda!!!

[Sig220]

I made it a week during/after a ice storm with a Yamaha 300o watt, it would run 7 hours on app. 2 gallons of gas.......killed my sleep!! but we stayed warm and didn't lose anything...only one in the 'hood with power!

That was in 97, still have the Yamaha and used it during Humberto....for app 3 days till they got the wires back up. I usually keep around 20 to 30 gallons on hand to get me over the hump.

I would love to get a NG/LP auto genset, but just can't free up the coins.....one day it will be there......elevated of course!!

[ppo84]

Went 10 days without power back in 03' with Hurricane Isabel. Had a 20hp/9000 watt generator then and once I got it wired up, could pretty much run everything in the house as needed, but man did it suck some gas. Figured out that most of the time I could do without 6000 or so watts(no hot water or central a/c) and get by on 1/3 the gas too. Now I have switched to a 3100 watt model, that is super quiet, sips gas and runs lights,fridge,freezer, fans etc. I will point out that I am now on county water, so I no longer have to run a well and have a gas range for cooking. In winter, emergency heat is via gas logs and wood stove.

[Ned Flangers]

Single phase power:
P=I X E
P being watts, I is amperage, E voltage.

So, Your wattage needs will be based upon the amperage drawn, multiplied by voltage, 120 volts, or perhaps 240 volts.

Decide the load you want to run off a generator and figure from there.

For instance, 60 amps at 120 volts will require 7200 watts, which does not factor in starting current or load spikes.
That is a pretty big load though. In an emergency, I would probably just go for a fridge (12-15 amps), gas furnace + blower motor (5 ampish- electric heat will really put you in the poor house!), and TV + Falfiles computer (single 20 amp circuit), for a total of 40 amps, or 4800 watts. YMMV.

And, of course you won't be maxed out all of the time.

[mosbysmen]

my next genny will be a diesel so i can run it off of biodiesel if need be .

read the genator thread stuck at the top of the page .

[Para Driver]

a 20 amp 120 volt circuit could draw 2400 watts maximum..
but most circuits don't run at max all the time, perhaps 1600-2000 is more typical. Watts=VoltsxAmps (single phase)

given that little bit of math, a 5kw generator should run 2-3 rooms.. enough to keep some lights on, run the sump pump, and keep the fridge cold, but it probably won't pull your big AC unit or Oven, those are usually 200v anyway..

you'd be wise to have an electrician wire a cut-over switch into your fuse panel, so you can take the house off the grid, and plug the generator directly into the box. you don't want to plug the generator into a wall outlet, as the wiring at that point won't support 40 amps.. could catch fire!! 16-18 gauge wire in most houses is only rated for 18-20 amps.. http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

I would go with gasoline btw, if you have to bug out you'll probably take the generator with you, and good luck finding LP or Naturual gas out in the boonies?

[FN74]

This is the one I'm considering putting in, that plus a 1000 gallon buried propane tank.



http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=340456

16KW Centurion Air Cooled Standby Generator

Delivery: $3,589.00
Shipping Included

The Centurion automatic standby generator is designed to supply electricity to a home’s essential items in the event of a power outage. It's equipped with pre-wired components for easy installation and 16 circuits to connect to critical circuits within your main distribution panel. It runs off your home’s fuel supply (natural gas or LP gas).

Sam's Club.

16,000 watts of back-up power
Capable of starting most 5-ton A/Cs or 2 4-ton A/Cs with 7kW of load
Ultra quiet mode provides quiet operation during the generator's weekly self-testing cycle
Electronic governor maintains steady speed and eliminates voltage drop when loads are applied
Complete pre-packaged system includes components for easy installation
Generator:

AC voltage: 120/240V single phase
Rated watts: LP/NG (kW): 16/15
Output amps @ 120/240V
Weekly exerciser
Dimensions: 48”L x 24”W x 28.25”H
Weight: 445 lbs.
Steel enclosure
Engine:

Generac OHVI® Engine
Displacement: 992 cubic centimeters
Cylinders: Inline 4-cycle,2-cylinder
Safety shutdowns
Low oil level shutdown
Low oil pressure shutdown
Overspeed/overcrank shutdown
Low coolant level shutdown
High coolant temperature shutdown
Transfer Switch:

100 Amp, 250 Volt
2 Pole
UL listed
NEMA 1 (indoor rated)
Circuit breaker protected
Load center provides 16 circuits
Dimensions: 26.25”L x 24”W x 28.25”H

[FN74]

Here's a link to all their selection http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/sea...pe=0&x=12&y=12

[SHARPSHOOTER]

That is a good one FN74. I bought a Kohler and have been happy with it, I think though that the Centurions and Kohlers are actually made by the same people but do not hold me to that. The 16kw should probably be adequate for most homes IMHO. The reason I went with the 20kw is that I have out buildings and 2 wells.

As for the comment about bugging out with your genset I honestly do not recomend buying a portable for emergency use. I know that is the route most people go but it is better to just get a stationary unit and a 500 gallon tank or a 1000 like FN mentioned. If I had not run out of $$$$ I would have gotten the 1000 gallon tank but believe me if all you use it for is emergency power generation 500 will last a long time unless there is a total collapse of the system then your probably screwed. I checked my tank the other day and I still have right at 400 gallons lefft after 2 years.

Originally posted by FN74
This is the one I'm considering putting in, that plus a 1000 gallon buried propane tank.



http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=340456

16KW Centurion Air Cooled Standby Generator

Delivery: $3,589.00
Shipping Included

The Centurion automatic standby generator is designed to supply electricity to a home’s essential items in the event of a power outage. It's equipped with pre-wired components for easy installation and 16 circuits to connect to critical circuits within your main distribution panel. It runs off your home’s fuel supply (natural gas or LP gas).

Sam's Club.

16,000 watts of back-up power
Capable of starting most 5-ton A/Cs or 2 4-ton A/Cs with 7kW of load
Ultra quiet mode provides quiet operation during the generator's weekly self-testing cycle
Electronic governor maintains steady speed and eliminates voltage drop when loads are applied
Complete pre-packaged system includes components for easy installation
Generator:

AC voltage: 120/240V single phase
Rated watts: LP/NG (kW): 16/15
Output amps @ 120/240V
Weekly exerciser
Dimensions: 48”L x 24”W x 28.25”H
Weight: 445 lbs.
Steel enclosure
Engine:

Generac OHVI® Engine
Displacement: 992 cubic centimeters
Cylinders: Inline 4-cycle,2-cylinder
Safety shutdowns
Low oil level shutdown
Low oil pressure shutdown
Overspeed/overcrank shutdown
Low coolant level shutdown
High coolant temperature shutdown
Transfer Switch:

100 Amp, 250 Volt
2 Pole
UL listed
NEMA 1 (indoor rated)
Circuit breaker protected
Load center provides 16 circuits
Dimensions: 26.25”L x 24”W x 28.25”H

[klambpix]

I've been looking at getting one of these for my 6500 watt gas generator.
Makes it bi-fuel. Poor man's option for a long running propane powered generator.


carb conversion kits

[RG Coburn]

http://www.uscarburetion.com/

Gasoline to propane kits.

[garybob]

Thanx again for all the info,I was kinda thinking myself of diesel and running on homemade bio in the future. Shouldn't be too big a deal to store some old grease and mix up small batches of bio as the need arises. I do like them big mo fo's that were posted. I'll certainly be checking out the links.

[Bruce Allen]

Originally posted by SHARPSHOOTER
........ Other advice I can offer is to have a professional electrician wire it into your your homes breaker box. .........

I have an electrial set up utilizing a manual transfer throw switch that takes my house totally off of the power grid while using my houses breaker box.

This way my transfer is only a four step system, as I have another breaker box the generator is wired into that is off until needed as an added safety.

I also cannot run everything - like the house airconditioner or water heater - so they are very promenently marked with a black magic marker so they can be easily seen and turned off before bringing the generator on line.

At times I have even printed out a check list procedure (for my wife and step daughter benefit) so the change over process could be done properly.

BTW - a proper transfer system is essential as simply backfeeding an electrical system will put power back into the power grid and make a dangerous situation for people working on the lines who are not expecting the lines to be hot.

[L Haney]

Originally posted by Bruce Allen


---Snip----

BTW - a proper transfer system is essential as simply backfeeding an electrical system will put power back into the power grid and make a dangerous situation for people working on the lines who are not expecting the lines to be hot.

Please, don't half ass this matter. Like Bruce points out, this needs to be done right. Your transfer switch should isolate your loads from the "street" side of the wiring. If you've got a nice beefy generator, you can charge up utility lines for miles. That transformer on the pole works both ways. You put 240 on the house side and it puts 7000-15000 into the lines on the pole. Yes, the current is vastly reduced, but that voltage can kill a utility worker that is too far away to hear your generator running. If you aren't sure, get help.
Also, if you get a direct burial tank for any type of fuel, it would really be prudent to add some cathodic protection to stop corrosion from eating holes in the metal. Coatings fail, and depending on soil conditions and metallic connections to the tank, corrosion can hole these things in short order. A couple of buried magnesium anodes made for this purpose, and electrically isolated fittings for the supply line will make this safe for the long term. Won't add that much to the price.

[firefuzz]

Originally posted by FN74


Also some propane tanks can be buried.

Being a firefighter and having to worry about B.L.E.V.E. (Boiling Liquid Vapor Expansion Explosion) on rural propane tanks too close to burning buildings, I've used to wonder why propane tanks weren't all buried like the older round Butane tanks were, which would prevent that danger. No one at the FD or propane companies could give me a good reason why not, except possibly corrosion and that companies are unable to do required inspections on the tanks.


BUT, I do know that no propane company that rents tanks will allow them to be buried and MOST will not fill buried tanks, at least in my area. So before you bury one make sure you've got a company in your area that will fill it.

Rob

[SHARPSHOOTER]

My propane tank is not near my home or the genset. I went to great pains to have my emergency power set up correctly by people who know what they are doing and as others have pointed out this is the right way to have it done. Otherwise your piece of mind might end up being your worst night mare. Although an MTS is an option modern ATS units are nice. I do recomend them .

Originally posted by firefuzz


Being a firefighter and having to worry about B.L.E.V.E. (Boiling Liquid Vapor Expansion Explosion) on rural propane tanks too close to burning buildings, I've used to wonder why propane tanks weren't all buried like the older round Butane tanks were, which would prevent that danger. No one at the FD or propane companies could give me a good reason why not, except possibly corrosion and that companies are unable to do required inspections on the tanks.


BUT, I do know that no propane company that rents tanks will allow them to be buried and MOST will not fill buried tanks, at least in my area. So before you bury one make sure you've got a company in your area that will fill it.

Rob

[chet]

FN74- Norwall has that same genset with an ATS included for slightly cheaper than Sam's:
NORWALL
3499+100 amp ATS+free ship
They are also advertsing a 250 manufacturerers rebate and a 50 dollar dealer discount until the 21st (although they have already extended this several times) so that would be: 3199.

A coworker bought a liquid cooled 25K from them and says they are good people.
Chet

[FN74]

Originally posted by chet
FN74- Norwall has that same genset with an ATS included for slightly cheaper than Sam's:
NORWALL
3499+100 amp ATS+free ship
They are also advertsing a 250 manufacturerers rebate and a 50 dollar dealer discount until the 21st (although they have already extended this several times) so that would be: 3199.

A coworker bought a liquid cooled 25K from them and says they are good people.
Chet

Excellent! Thank you for the heads up!

[KoKodog]

heres a thought ...............

last weekend we were hit by ice here , my brother-in-law ran his 15KW gas powered generator for 33 hours until power was restored

cost just under $300.00 in gasoline

his neighbor ate a huge chunk of propane from his 1000 lb ? gallon? tank

my diesel can run for a fraction of that cost

if need be, when its warm I can run on a 50/50 mix of diesel & waste vegetable oil

[garybob]

That's what I'm talking about. Thanx..........

[FN74]

Diesel is not any cheaper per gallon than gasoline, but is easier to store. However, there are other factors to consider - some of us live in developments where propane is OK, however a large storage tank for diesel is not. Having been a Machinery Technician in the coast guard as well, and working on dozens of diesel gensets, I do not see any advantage to the diesel setup over propane. 1000 gallons of propane will last a long time. Also you don't have to run the genset 24/7. You should shut it off on non-peak power usage times to save fuel. Down here in Georgia, my main consideration is hurricanes. They happen in the summer (and early fall which is still summer down here...) and we'd likely have to run 20 hours per day to keep the AC going.

Propane tanks can be buried (check with your LP provider) and you can use it for more than just fueling the genset - you can heat with it, cook with it and if you install instahot water heaters in your showers and taps, you can save a lot of money with it and put less burden on the genset.

Propane units are quieter on average than the diesel units are, take less juice to start, require no glow plugs or core heaters (cold climates).

The only down side to propane I can see is if SHTF permenantly and you can no longer order propane, then the veggie oil diesel conversion could be useful.
I plan on getting both - but the latter will be for back up only, and the LP unit will be hardwired into the home.

[FN74]

Just a quick fuel usage guestimate - Propane genset like I listed, I have read that about 1 gallon of fuel is burned per hour with that set.

Based off that, 1000 gallon tank topped off should run your power for about 40 days.

To be conservative, one month's worth of power from the genset if run 24/7.

[KoKodog]

Originally posted by garybob
That's what I'm talking about. Thanx..........

yeah, I about dropped a load in my pants when I heard that cost, his has a older Onan 4 cyl & his neighbor has a 20 KW unit from either CAT or Cummings (fully automatic on/off w/weekly test cycles)


this post >>> http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...33#post2047233 will give you some insight for generator selection, it is pretty much for DIY'ers on George's site but you can learn from the info there and can get a good idea of what you will need

[JJ_BPK]

Gas -vs- Diesel -vs- Propane

I got to add a little local knowledge to the pot..

I live on a island,, 90 North of Havana & 150 SW of the banana republic of Miami.

We do hurricanes,, They are not exactly a Zombie exercise,, but have some of the notion,, and happen on a regular basis,, we go into a lock down,, when dawn brakes,, we come with and keep handy an assortment of things that go bang,,, for personal protection only.....

For power I have a Honda 2500 watt gas,, uses 2.5 gals every 12-14 hours,, runs only my 110v circuits,, which includes two fridges, spark for gas stove, fans in all rooms,, lights,, satellite link,, & charger for my Dewalt(s)..

No heat, air, hot water, laundry..

I have four 7 gal gas cans(28 gals) good for about 10 days..

After hurricane Georges in 98,, the Gas company came around after 6 - 8 weeks to refill my house tank.. Fortunately we only use it for cooking and have a 200 lb tank. We got power back in 14 days,, phones in 3 weeks,, tv cable in two months..

National guard had the roads open in three days,, and supplies started to roll,, power was restored to the gas stations and groceries stores in the 1st week..

After action review: I look at up-sizing, primarily for air,, did I tell you it gets hot here??

So,, In the Keys,, ALL our supplies come down one road,, US # 1,, cross 27 bridges, two lanes.. That's everything on one road.. We live 127 miles from the main land..

1st upgrade problem was fuel,,

Talked to our local gas company,, their take,, ALL LP goes to government services like the hospitals,, schools,, evac centers,, Next retail food stores and restaurants,, then civvies..

SO,, I looked at gas,, for about 2 seconds,, way to many safety problems,, &
goes bad to fast..

Next Diesel,, lasts a long time,, moderately safe,, and we already have neighborhood delivery to several of my commercial fishing boat friends..

I asked about costs,, not great,, but in the long run,,

The problem is we live in a triple redundant federally run tree hugger haven.. They don't want to permit anything that might hurt the fish,, or birds,, or snails,, or rats,, or rabbits,, or Key deer,, or one of the 8 endangered species that I share dirt with...

BUT if I was to get the permit,, it would be for a 1000 gal diesel tank..

My point,, you need to take into account YOUR local supply chain and support infrastructure,, plans go to shiite if no-body is there to execute them..

My .000002 USD cents..

JJ

[KoKodog]

Originally posted by FN74
Diesel is not any cheaper per gallon than gasoline, but is easier to store.

not quite true, you run red dye #2 (off road diesel same as home heating oil, you are not driving your generator on a federally funded highway)

here there is a 40 cent/gallon tax on highway diesel above and beyond the regular highway tax, take that off and the diesel is almost cheaper than gas ...........

........... but to get to the point that I think that you missed, there are many, many more BTU's in diesel fuel than either gasoline or propane, diesels are designed to run long hours under heavy loads using the least amount of fuel and diesel engines are more thermally efficient meaning the use of less fuel

under ideal conditions diesel will store longer than gasoline, but when you add the proper stabilizer to both ........... the diesel then stores many more years than gasoline .......... in theory propane will store indefenitly under ideal conditions

I fill several 55 gallon drums in my basement every summer when I fill the heating oil tank & have a high volume pump to transfer to the tank when needed, I therefore have at least a month possibly two months worth of fuel for the generator if need be

so all things considered, the only answer in my book is diesel ....... your opinion may vary depending on your circumstances

[FN74]

Originally posted by KoKodog


not quite true, you run red dye #2 (off road diesel same as home heating oil, you are not driving your generator on a federally funded highway)

here there is a 40 cent/gallon tax on highway diesel above and beyond the regular highway tax, take that off and the diesel is almost cheaper than gas ...........

........... but to get to the point that I think that you missed, there are many, many more BTU's in diesel fuel than either gasoline or propane, diesels are designed to run long hours under heavy loads using the least amount of fuel and diesel engines are more thermally efficient meaning the use of less fuel

under ideal conditions diesel will store longer than gasoline, but when you add the proper stabilizer to both ........... the diesel then stores many more years than gasoline .......... in theory propane will store indefenitly under ideal conditions

I fill several 55 gallon drums in my basement every summer when I fill the heating oil tank & have a high volume pump to transfer to the tank when needed, I therefore have at least a month possibly two months worth of fuel for the generator if need be

so all things considered, the only answer in my book is diesel ....... your opinion may vary depending on your circumstances

I don't disagree with what you're saying, and yes, you can run #2 diesel, however three points:

1. Storage of 1000 gallons of propane versus Diesel - both size (not everyone has storage facilities for 55 gallon drums of diesel) and longevity (microbes can and will get into diesel as well as moisture/water, you need a seperation unit for diesels)

2. Cost of propane versus even #2 diesel.

3. Potential fire hazard/fire code violations with diesel versus propane.

Propane gensets are every bit as efficient as diesel, not to mention some are air cooled systems only. Most every diesel genset I've seen is water cooled, and LOUD.

I'm certified on Onan, Perkins, John Deere and cummins gensets, and have worked on several other types - both large and small. Biggest one I've worked on was a 200KW unit in iraq. I'm familiar with diesel, gas and propane, and the best all around genset for housing developments is the LP/Natural Gas units IMHO.

Propane will store indefinately.

Propane trends have been .50 cents per gallon less than Gasoline and .80 cents per gallon than diesel.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp

Propane also has ancillary uses like cooking, heating and lighting. Diesel is not generally used for those regulary in households because of fuming.

Propane burns odorless basically.

[KoKodog]

primary home heat- home heating oil (#2 red dye diesel) getting ready to build a rocket mass heater making oil heat secondary, diesel car, diesel truck, diesel generator ............. easy answer

gasoline, natural gas and propane all are more prone to fire & explosion hazards ..... gasoline does not store well, natural gas pumping stations are dependant on grid up conditions and very large propane tanks have to be filled by delivery trucks

under ideal conditions emergency response here is 20 to 30 minutes, throw in severe weather or SHTF conditions and that leaves only one choice diesel

long term disaster/civil unrest equals shortages of liquid fuels, I can run a 50/50 mix of diesel and filtered waste vegetable oil or a 60/40 mix of diesel and filtered crankcase drained oil to greatly extend my fuel supply

grid down conditions for a day to a week you can easily get by with the other three, but if Katrina/Rita circumstances or worse apply you had better be running a diesel

Propane gensets are every bit as efficient as diesel

have you ever seen a propane powered ship ??

diesel engines are more thermally efficient than any other type of engine,
because of the extremely low profit margin, shippers use containerized cargo handling and diesel power and you will never see a propane powered ship

when you have the freedom & ability to make the choice without some fruit-loop that thinks that you are not smart enough to make the choice (read local ordinances & ultra-liberal do-gooders) diesel stands clearly above all others

[FN74]

Sorry, but I've seen steam powered ships and they are way more efficient than diesel, but they are all retired now... Wonder why...

Propane is less affected by SHTF situations than diesel - I was at katrina, and saw it first hand. Those that had propane and were frugal with it had no problems. Diesel was commondered by LE, as was Gas. Diesel even cut with oil or other types of fluids are not as efficient and are in more demand. Not to 'mention not nearly as "noticable". Sorry, I understand what you're saying, but disagree with your assumption based on experiance. YMMV.

[Sig220]

I may miss someone, but I would bet that MOST of the areas that expect hurricanes are not heated by a oil fired system.

In my area, you have electric heat, natural gas or propane heat.

In my 32 years on the Gulf, I have never seen the natural gas supply interrupted due to storm damage........even after over 2 weeks w/o electricity.

So the easiest genset to fuel for me would be natural gas. I see where natural gas genset consumption is higher than those fueled by propane, but I would not need a storage tank either!!

YMMV

[KoKodog]

Originally posted by Sig220
I may miss someone, but I would bet that MOST of the areas that expect hurricanes are not heated by a oil fired system.

just recently, Irene and Ivan swung by and did a Texas Two-step on PA and they were not nearly as strong as Katrina & Rita

Diesel was commandeered by LE, as was Gas

never, ever, ever trust anyone from or with gov't ties to know what you have stored ............ the last thing you want is some far- left- ultra- liberal- do- gooder making decisions for you and what you need or don't need and what's right for you ........... if you do ............ you will get what you deserve

[Sig220]

I have been through Rita and Humberto as of late, not to mention the other tropical storms that have brushed by my area.

At no time, did anyone in the govt try to take fuel stored up by citizens. It is not a worry that I have. Hell, it would take more effort then it would be worth to confiscate fuel by 5 gallon cans!!

I would bet that the storms in PA did not cause near the interruption of power as the ones on the Gulf, but if it makes you feel better to store oil for a genset........more power to you.

I would think that the extra oil would come in handy for the more likely ice storms!

Even had one of those back in 97, went about 10 days w/o power and had the only house in the n'hood with power. Thanks to a rinky-dink genset and some stored up gasoline!!

Prepare for what your area will present to you, whether it ice or wind, use the fuel that is best for your conditions/area and forge on.

[FN74]

The concern during katrina too was more from theft than from confication. Hard to steal an underground or above ground 250+ gallon propane tank.

5 gallon cans of anything are easy to move, and easier to steal.

Also I forgot to mention - the reason why you don't see a propane ship has nothing to do with burn rate, and more with ballast and storage of LNG or LP. It is pressurized and would be a floating bomb at sea, and would provide less ballast than fuel oil etc would. All the LNG ships I board here have huge tanks above deck for the pressurized fuel.

Natural gas and LP are both better fuels for a fixed genset, require less maintenance and are cheaper than diesel and more efficient for home use in a fixed genset.

For mobile or portable gensets, gas and diesel are better IMHO.

[KoKodog]

read this, if you can understand it, then show me in real world terms just how thermally efficient your propane or gasoline engine is above a diesel

you cannot wish or will the laws of physics to reach your terms, for all engines output is always less than input


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_efficiency

[FN74]

Originally posted by KoKodog
read this, if you can understand it, then show me in real world terms just how thermally efficient your propane or gasoline engine is above a diesel

you cannot wish or will the laws of physics to reach your terms, for all engines output is always less than input


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_efficiency

Over analysis. Basic consumption - i.e. supply versus demand etc.

Is a more expensive, harder to store fuel more efficient when you calculate the hauling and storing expense in energy?

[GSF1200]

Several times my lights were the only ones shining as far as I could see.

Makes you an easy target

[AV8R]

That's what I was thinking, too. Not so much in a 2 or 3 day power outage, but in a Katrina or bigger SHTF scenario, some ruthless people will relieve you of those lights, gas, and generator. And maybe even your food, weapons, toilet paper, and your first-born.

Sundown = lights out. The sound alone from a generator is enough of a beacon for scumbags.

[Sig220]

Originally posted by AV8R
That's what I was thinking, too. Not so much in a 2 or 3 day power outage, but in a Katrina or bigger SHTF scenario, some ruthless people will relieve you of those lights, gas, and generator. And maybe even your food, weapons, toilet paper, and your first-born.

Sundown = lights out. The sound alone from a generator is enough of a beacon for scumbags.

Funny, my genset stayed and ran for right at 3 weeks for Rita. Maybe it depends on your n'hood, as nothing was stolen. Ever think about moving??

[KoKodog]

Originally posted by Sig220


Funny, my genset stayed and ran for right at 3 weeks for Rita. Maybe it depends on your n'hood, as nothing was stolen. Ever think about moving??

when my neighbors hear me shoot, they look at each other and say in unison, whatever it was, is dead now

I think they know and understand

[AV8R]

Originally posted by Sig220


Funny, my genset stayed and ran for right at 3 weeks for Rita. Maybe it depends on your n'hood, as nothing was stolen. Ever think about moving??

Nah... No worries where I live.

[Bruce Allen]

Originally posted by GSF1200
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several times my lights were the only ones shining as far as I could see.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Makes you an easy target

Not where I am located.

I live in a rural area in an older subdivision that is heavily wooded, and the lay of the land protects my house from being seen until you drive very close to it.
All residents are long term home owners, no rental houses, period.
I know my closest neighbors and we look out for each other.

Besides, you missed the other obvious factor in detecting a generator running:
Sound.

When I built a second building on my property, I planned extensively for this system, and it was designed by me to house my well pump controls and tank, and generator room.
The noise of the generator running is contained within the room, with the exhaust piped thru a wall to a decent muffler.
While it can be heard, the noise is lessened quite a bit.

The well tank and controls and generator are basically in the same room (it is partitioned) and stay heated by the heat put off from the generator when it is operating, so are protected from freezing without needing any additonal heat sources.

Also: all lines that run and from to the "garage" to the main house are underground.. water, power, drains and phone, all placed in a trench that is 36" deep.
It was a lot of work and all was done by me.

BTW - lights out was at about 9:30 pm.

Easy?
I can be had, but it won't be easy.

I can see any vehicles approaching for at least 150 yards in any direction and icy conditions preclude anything but a 4 wheel drive even getting to my house, or in or out of the neighborhood.

I am well armed, proficient (ask anyone that has ever seen me shoot my FAL), well trained, experienced and very determined.

What more can I say?

[John Hardin]

Something else to consider doing if you're living where it gets cold: get a water-cooled genset and plumb it so that you can use the waste heat to heat your house and/or to heat water.

Maybe cut a valve in and plumb a second radiator inside the house, and hook the valve up to a thermostat so that it will circulate the engine coolant inside when the house is below the set point and outside when it's above.

You could also rig up a heat exchanger to scavenge heat off the exhaust if you wanted to use that too.