AR range safety question

**GOVT1911** · April 03, 2007, 01:35

Question for all ya'll safety fanatics on here.
I'm setting up some range scenarios for my guys here and was wanting to set up a "malfunction" during one of the stages.
Would there be a safety related problem with loading a blank round somewhere in the middle of a mag of live 5.56? I'm thinking to load a blank 5 or so rounds down in the mag so the soldiers have to conduct Immediate Action drills (S.P.O.R.T.S.) to clear the malfunction. I can't see where it would cause a problem safety-wise, but just wanted to know if any of ya'll had any input on this.

Thanks

SIG552 · April 03, 2007, 01:38

If you want to run that sort of drill use a snap cap. With it you can simulate a dud. A blank will make noise, perhaps enough to make the soldier think the run was normal. At least hearing "click" will have him clearing the weapon quickly.

SIG552

**GOVT1911** · April 03, 2007, 02:05

Thanks for the input.
I use snapcaps for these drills back at home, but don't have ready access to them here downrange. I tried just using a fired case, but it doesn't chamber sometimes and then ends up tying the weapon up so the simple SPORTS doesn't clear it occasionally. I'm looking for some way to induce a malfunction that can be cleared by Immediate Action without having to go into Remedial Action drills.
I know there are better ways to do this (snap caps) but trying to work with available resources that I have here downrange. (fired cases and blanks)

And for those who wonder why we have blanks in Iraq, it's for memorial services. Unfortunately, we use them alot

**Andy the Aussie** · April 03, 2007, 02:20

Mate, I may have access to some drill rounds in 5.56, Winchester made brass/copper coloured case solid "projectile shaped" front end hollow over sized primer pocket. Work well to induce the type of stoppage you are talking about (it is exactly what we use them for). Let me know if you want me to look for some spares.

Andy

Rich@CGW · April 03, 2007, 02:31

Any reloading capability.
You could make your own dud's.

Just load up some empty brass with shot primers and no powder charge.
Resize the brass and seat new bullet.

Otherwise, It will be a few weeks before I can send you some snap caps with your care package.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Not a reloader myself, But I wonder if you would even need to resize the brass if you:

Pull the bullet.
Empty powder Charge
Chamber and fire the Primered case only.

Then reset the bullet for a dud round.

Need an experianced reloader to verify that scenerio.

ps. 1 CrPk outbound to you on the 26th.

**GOVT1911** · April 03, 2007, 02:34

Andy,
Thanks for the offer, but I'm running this range in a few days. I can always order some snap caps, but I've got several for each caliber I use already at home.

OT: How's the TLC doing? The more I look at those Aussie 4x4 mags you sent the more I'm thinking about trying to find another FJ when I get back stateside! (Keeping the Jeep, of course. gotta have something that someone actually sells aftermarket parts for!)

**Andy the Aussie** · April 03, 2007, 02:41

Quote:

Originally posted by GOVT1911
OT: How's the TLC doing? The more I look at those Aussie 4x4 mags you sent the more I'm thinking about trying to find another FJ when I get back stateside! (Keeping the Jeep, of course. gotta have something that someone actually sells aftermarket parts for!)

......running well (was up the bush a couple of weeks ago) but goes in for a gearbox overhaul in a couple of weeks. 3rd gear syncro is getting a bit "nasty" so I will give it a new set of bearings and seals while it is out, along with a new clutch (nothing wrong with this one but hey...it is out and the worst work is done) tidy up the flywheel and give it a new rear main seal just to be safe. It has just on 250,000km on it as of a week or so ago so I can't complain....all this is the original kit.

Those little 40series (mine was a Diesel BJ series) are bringing big $$s down here still....I will send you a couple of links to some for sale around me. LOTS of aftermarket gear for them down here not near as much for the Jeeps......

Stay safe mate and let me know if I can help you out with anything. I was at our weapons training unit most of this week past. In fact I think I was using a pallet of 60K rounds of 5.56 as a desk for a bit there.....

Andy

**GOVT1911** · April 03, 2007, 02:55

Rich,
got the care package this morning! Thanks again!!! The munchies are always welcome and a nice break from everyday stuff here. Our chowhall is actually pretty decent, but it's still the same thing day after day. LOL
The last package you sent was incredible! (don't remember if I said thanks for that one...) My driver sends a BIG thanks for the Gerber, he'd broken his last one and your package came right at the perfect time! I really like the Buck, I was wondering how strong they were built and had been thinking about them since they came out. It's like you read my mind or somethin! LOL

To all: thanks for the offers everyone has made of sending snap-caps, but it's not necessary. I think I'll try to pull some bullets, fire the primers and see if I can reseat the projos. Gives me something to do with my down time. LOL

I'll see how that works and then make the call on weather to use them or just use blanks. Hey.........I could just fire the blanks and then use the fired blanks loaded in the mags..................

Ya'll take care and stay safe,
John

SIG552 · April 03, 2007, 04:19

A fired blank doesn't like being force fed to an AR. If time is an issue try using self made duds....be carefull, if you use them often enough the projectile will be pushed deeper into the case, resulting in feed failures etc. And there is of course the danger of your self made duds ending up in the ammo can and being loaded as live rounds.

SIG552

Noah Zark · April 03, 2007, 05:16

Sure, a blank 5.56 cartridge will go but it won't cycle the action so the fired blank case would still have to be cleared by hand.

Would that not accomplish the goal?

Noah

**GOVT1911** · April 03, 2007, 06:42

Noah,
Yup, that's why I was thinking of using blanks. give'em practice clearing malfunctions on the range. cuz ya know, the M4 is a big 'ol jammomatic peice of crap if ya ask some folks.

FWIW, I've carried the M16/M4 family of weapons during over 50 months of deployments in combat/hostile fire zones and have never had a malfunction. Yes, I do regular maintenence and regularly clean/check my mags. No, I don't expect my M4 to run flawlessly when I just chuck it in the truck and forget about it for days at a time. (which I've noticed is what happens to most people's weapons that bitch about them being unreliable)

BUT I still practice and have my guys practice Immediate Action drills, cuz ya never know and Pvt Murphy shows up when ya least need him.

Para Driver · April 03, 2007, 07:10

soak some live rounds in WD-40, that'll kill the primers???

Noah Zark · April 03, 2007, 09:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Para Driver
soak some live rounds in WD-40, that'll kill the primers???

That's OK, but you won't know for sure, and there might be a possibility for squibs and bullets lodged in the barrel, and KBs as a result.

GOVT1911 wants to do some clearance drills, and back in the day (early 70s) we did the same thing at Parris, LeJeune, and Geiger with mags loaded randomly with a blank or three.

Blanks will do fine for the desired task. The rifle may go but it will be a manually-operated bolt action at that point, and will still need cleared. Mission accomplished.

Noah

TheOtherChris · April 03, 2007, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Noah Zark

That's OK, but you won't know for sure, and there might be a possibility for squibs and bullets lodged in the barrel, and KBs as a result.

GOVT1911 wants to do some clearance drills, and back in the day (early 70s) we did the same thing at Parris, LeJeune, and Geiger with mags loaded randomly with a blank or three.

Blanks will do fine for the desired task. The rifle may go but it will be a manually-operated bolt action at that point, and will still need cleared. Mission accomplished.

Noah

+1

**stimpsonjcat** · April 03, 2007, 11:00

Blanks will be fine.

If you DO decide to ever make dummy rounds, be aware that the greatest threat to the shooters is that the bullet will remain in the bbl when they clear the malfunction. I have had dummy ammo from Brownells do this after repeated uses. So now when I make it for the FAL match I solder the bullets into the brass and forbid the dummies being used for more than one shooter.

I have tested dummies made this way for 20+ cycles without the bullet even getting loose in the brass.

mhg · April 03, 2007, 11:20

If ya roll your own you will need to re-size the case neck and I would use an aggressive crimp. Otherwise you run the risk of the bullet jamming itself into the case, or worse, lodging into the bore.

I'd stick with the blanks.

Matt

Rich@CGW · April 03, 2007, 20:27

So, Andy ! What are sending next to GOVT1911 ?

I need to know early so I can find something to 1 up ya on

How did the Vegimate Go over ?

mhg · April 03, 2007, 21:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich@CGW
So, Andy ! What are sending next to GOVT1911 ?

How did the Vegimate Go over ?

Pssst..

Send Marmite

Matt

**Andy the Aussie** · April 04, 2007, 02:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich@CGW
So, Andy ! What are sending next to GOVT1911 ?

I need to know early so I can find something to 1 up ya on

How did the Vegimate Go over ?

....he is still alive so it can't have been as bad as I was predicting or he was expecting....

Just looking into the laws regarding the export of inflatable sheep.......

Keeps him away from the local livestock....

**GOVT1911** · April 04, 2007, 02:59

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll go with the blanks.

Rich and Andy,
I (and my guys) really appreciate the packages ya'll have sent!! Lots of great reading material and munchies. My Platoon CP is covered with posters/magazine covers etc from all the gun rags. My buddy at the gunshop back in Fayetteville is gonna be pretty happy with me for all the business I'm bringing his way when we get back.
I seem to remember someone here on the Files posted something about him having an FFL and being in Fayetteville, if I can find him I'll reccomend my guys go thru him for all the gun purchases they've been talking about. (I've already ordered a couple more AK and AR parts kits online, just gotta snag some receivers when I get back. Lookin for a decent FAL receiver too, but I fear it's gonna be even more $$ when I get back this summer/fall.

The vegimite was.................interesting. It actually wasn't as bad as I had expected from all the hubbub on here. Kinda salty or like eating a bullion cube or something, but if ya go light on it it's not bad! My buddy I share my hootch with disagrees, but then he's a picky bastard! LOL

thanks again for all that the Files members have done for me and my guys here. Ya'll ROCK!

John

**Andy the Aussie** · April 04, 2007, 04:54

Quote:

Originally posted by GOVT1911
My buddy I share my hootch with disagrees, but then he's a picky bastard! LOL

.......h eis obviously a man of GOOD taste if he doe snot like axle grease in a tube....

Now PROMITE is a different kettle of fish no doubt... looked for another Jeep magazine but it seems they can't even give 'em away just now.......

**GOVT1911** · April 06, 2007, 02:03

OK, range is over, went really well. did some scenarios as well as standard zero/qual.
The blanks worked really well. I had the stage set up as a "blind" stage where the shooter was given a brief on the scenario and then had to solve the problem without any further info.
The brief was that the soldier was travelling on patrol in an M1114 uparmored Humvee. The Humvee had been struck by IED and disabled and the soldier had to dismount and move to another Humvee while using all available cover and engaging targets enroute.

The first set of targets was to be engaged while using his Humvee as cover (4 shoot targets marked by using painted cardboard cutouts of weapons and 3 "non-threat" targets without weapons)

There were 2 targets that weren't exposed until soldier began movement to next cover. He could engage on the move or from cover, his choice.

The next cover was a vehicle. Shooter had to engage 2 shoots mixed with 4 no-shoots while shooting UNDER the vehicle. (not really as easy as it sounds)

Final cover was a "jersey barrier" that the shooter had to fire around, NOT over, the barrier at 3 shoots, 3 no-shoots.

Targets were standard sillouettes with 8.5x11" paper center mass and 3x5" paper in head area. Targets must be "neutralized" with one shot on paper OR 2 shots on sillouette.

Each run was timed with penalties:
10 sec for hitting "no-shoot" target
20 sec for failure to neutralize a shoot target
10 sec for failure to use cover

The shooters had 4 10 round mags with one blank mixed somewhere in each mag. (shooters had no idea there would be a "forced malfunction")

My guys were pretty happy with the scenario as well as their times. It was nice to change things up from regular "paper" ranges. A little bit of thought and planning resulted in a pretty good training experience.
Bragging/jazzing rights were earned. LOL

Had 40 shooters and went thru just a hair over 3k rounds.

soldiers were allowed to run thru several times, but on subsequent runs the targets were changed up a bit.

powermad · April 06, 2007, 05:43

Hats off to you guys.

Good training to make it home alive.

rcnpthfndr · April 06, 2007, 07:18

govt1911 i will send you a nsn for machined dummy rounds you can also buy them through gsa.

April 03, 2007, 01:35	#1
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	AR range safety question Question for all ya'll safety fanatics on here. I'm setting up some range scenarios for my guys here and was wanting to set up a "malfunction" during one of the stages. Would there be a safety related problem with loading a blank round somewhere in the middle of a mag of live 5.56? I'm thinking to load a blank 5 or so rounds down in the mag so the soldiers have to conduct Immediate Action drills (S.P.O.R.T.S.) to clear the malfunction. I can't see where it would cause a problem safety-wise, but just wanted to know if any of ya'll had any input on this. Thanks __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 03, 2007, 02:05	#3
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	Thanks for the input. I use snapcaps for these drills back at home, but don't have ready access to them here downrange. I tried just using a fired case, but it doesn't chamber sometimes and then ends up tying the weapon up so the simple SPORTS doesn't clear it occasionally. I'm looking for some way to induce a malfunction that can be cleared by Immediate Action without having to go into Remedial Action drills. I know there are better ways to do this (snap caps) but trying to work with available resources that I have here downrange. (fired cases and blanks) And for those who wonder why we have blanks in Iraq, it's for memorial services. Unfortunately, we use them alot __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 03, 2007, 02:34	#6
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	Andy, Thanks for the offer, but I'm running this range in a few days. I can always order some snap caps, but I've got several for each caliber I use already at home. OT: How's the TLC doing? The more I look at those Aussie 4x4 mags you sent the more I'm thinking about trying to find another FJ when I get back stateside! (Keeping the Jeep, of course. gotta have something that someone actually sells aftermarket parts for!) __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 03, 2007, 02:55	#8
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	Rich, got the care package this morning! Thanks again!!! The munchies are always welcome and a nice break from everyday stuff here. Our chowhall is actually pretty decent, but it's still the same thing day after day. LOL The last package you sent was incredible! (don't remember if I said thanks for that one...) My driver sends a BIG thanks for the Gerber, he'd broken his last one and your package came right at the perfect time! I really like the Buck, I was wondering how strong they were built and had been thinking about them since they came out. It's like you read my mind or somethin! LOL To all: thanks for the offers everyone has made of sending snap-caps, but it's not necessary. I think I'll try to pull some bullets, fire the primers and see if I can reseat the projos. Gives me something to do with my down time. LOL I'll see how that works and then make the call on weather to use them or just use blanks. Hey.........I could just fire the blanks and then use the fired blanks loaded in the mags.................. Ya'll take care and stay safe, John __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 03, 2007, 05:16	#10
Noah Zark Registered FALaholic #: 5024 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: PA Posts: 667	Sure, a blank 5.56 cartridge will go but it won't cycle the action so the fired blank case would still have to be cleared by hand. Would that not accomplish the goal? Noah __________________ Resistance is NOT futile. Resistance is voltage divided by current.

April 03, 2007, 01:38	#2
SIG552 Registered FALaholic #: 21446 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: FL350 somewhere Posts: 1,619	If you want to run that sort of drill use a snap cap. With it you can simulate a dud. A blank will make noise, perhaps enough to make the soldier think the run was normal. At least hearing "click" will have him clearing the weapon quickly. SIG552

April 03, 2007, 02:20	#4
Andy the Aussie Dinosaur Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 216 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Down Under Posts: 12,714	Mate, I may have access to some drill rounds in 5.56, Winchester made brass/copper coloured case solid "projectile shaped" front end hollow over sized primer pocket. Work well to induce the type of stoppage you are talking about (it is exactly what we use them for). Let me know if you want me to look for some spares. Andy

April 03, 2007, 02:31	#5
Rich@CGW Registered FALaholic #: 167 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Gardnerville , NV. Near Lake Tahoe Posts: 1,826	Any reloading capability. You could make your own dud's. Just load up some empty brass with shot primers and no powder charge. Resize the brass and seat new bullet. Otherwise, It will be a few weeks before I can send you some snap caps with your care package. ------------------------------------------------------------- Not a reloader myself, But I wonder if you would even need to resize the brass if you: Pull the bullet. Empty powder Charge Chamber and fire the Primered case only. Then reset the bullet for a dud round. Need an experianced reloader to verify that scenerio. ps. 1 CrPk outbound to you on the 26th.

April 03, 2007, 04:19	#9
SIG552 Registered FALaholic #: 21446 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: FL350 somewhere Posts: 1,619	A fired blank doesn't like being force fed to an AR. If time is an issue try using self made duds....be carefull, if you use them often enough the projectile will be pushed deeper into the case, resulting in feed failures etc. And there is of course the danger of your self made duds ending up in the ammo can and being loaded as live rounds. SIG552

April 03, 2007, 06:42	#11
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	Noah, Yup, that's why I was thinking of using blanks. give'em practice clearing malfunctions on the range. cuz ya know, the M4 is a big 'ol jammomatic peice of crap if ya ask some folks. FWIW, I've carried the M16/M4 family of weapons during over 50 months of deployments in combat/hostile fire zones and have never had a malfunction. Yes, I do regular maintenence and regularly clean/check my mags. No, I don't expect my M4 to run flawlessly when I just chuck it in the truck and forget about it for days at a time. (which I've noticed is what happens to most people's weapons that bitch about them being unreliable) BUT I still practice and have my guys practice Immediate Action drills, cuz ya never know and Pvt Murphy shows up when ya least need him. __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 03, 2007, 07:10	#12
Para Driver Registered FALaholic #: 6350 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 6,297	soak some live rounds in WD-40, that'll kill the primers???

April 03, 2007, 11:00	#15
stimpsonjcat Windoze free since 1-2010 Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 470 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Dawsonville, GA Posts: 4,196	Blanks will be fine. If you DO decide to ever make dummy rounds, be aware that the greatest threat to the shooters is that the bullet will remain in the bbl when they clear the malfunction. I have had dummy ammo from Brownells do this after repeated uses. So now when I make it for the FAL match I solder the bullets into the brass and forbid the dummies being used for more than one shooter. I have tested dummies made this way for 20+ cycles without the bullet even getting loose in the brass. __________________ peace! Happiness=UPS+ORMD "Your 8mm FAL is like a deuce coup with a Ferrari pancake 12 under the hood and a Jaguar rear end. It just kinda transcends cool into fantasy."- USMC 0341 "The stimpgewehr is the reason Waldo is hiding."- Kotengu Cause I can still hear his voice when I put it to my shoulder, "A guns like a woman son, it's all how you hold her."

April 03, 2007, 11:20	#16
mhg Registered FALaholic #: 7772 Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2,082	If ya roll your own you will need to re-size the case neck and I would use an aggressive crimp. Otherwise you run the risk of the bullet jamming itself into the case, or worse, lodging into the bore. I'd stick with the blanks. Matt __________________ "My philosophy, like color television, is all there in black and white”

April 03, 2007, 20:27	#17
Rich@CGW Registered FALaholic #: 167 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Gardnerville , NV. Near Lake Tahoe Posts: 1,826	So, Andy ! What are sending next to GOVT1911 ? I need to know early so I can find something to 1 up ya on How did the Vegimate Go over ?

April 04, 2007, 02:59	#20
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll go with the blanks. Rich and Andy, I (and my guys) really appreciate the packages ya'll have sent!! Lots of great reading material and munchies. My Platoon CP is covered with posters/magazine covers etc from all the gun rags. My buddy at the gunshop back in Fayetteville is gonna be pretty happy with me for all the business I'm bringing his way when we get back. I seem to remember someone here on the Files posted something about him having an FFL and being in Fayetteville, if I can find him I'll reccomend my guys go thru him for all the gun purchases they've been talking about. (I've already ordered a couple more AK and AR parts kits online, just gotta snag some receivers when I get back. Lookin for a decent FAL receiver too, but I fear it's gonna be even more $$ when I get back this summer/fall. The vegimite was.................interesting. It actually wasn't as bad as I had expected from all the hubbub on here. Kinda salty or like eating a bullion cube or something, but if ya go light on it it's not bad! My buddy I share my hootch with disagrees, but then he's a picky bastard! LOL thanks again for all that the Files members have done for me and my guys here. Ya'll ROCK! John __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 06, 2007, 02:03	#22
GOVT1911 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 9433 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 3,215	OK, range is over, went really well. did some scenarios as well as standard zero/qual. The blanks worked really well. I had the stage set up as a "blind" stage where the shooter was given a brief on the scenario and then had to solve the problem without any further info. The brief was that the soldier was travelling on patrol in an M1114 uparmored Humvee. The Humvee had been struck by IED and disabled and the soldier had to dismount and move to another Humvee while using all available cover and engaging targets enroute. The first set of targets was to be engaged while using his Humvee as cover (4 shoot targets marked by using painted cardboard cutouts of weapons and 3 "non-threat" targets without weapons) There were 2 targets that weren't exposed until soldier began movement to next cover. He could engage on the move or from cover, his choice. The next cover was a vehicle. Shooter had to engage 2 shoots mixed with 4 no-shoots while shooting UNDER the vehicle. (not really as easy as it sounds) Final cover was a "jersey barrier" that the shooter had to fire around, NOT over, the barrier at 3 shoots, 3 no-shoots. Targets were standard sillouettes with 8.5x11" paper center mass and 3x5" paper in head area. Targets must be "neutralized" with one shot on paper OR 2 shots on sillouette. Each run was timed with penalties: 10 sec for hitting "no-shoot" target 20 sec for failure to neutralize a shoot target 10 sec for failure to use cover The shooters had 4 10 round mags with one blank mixed somewhere in each mag. (shooters had no idea there would be a "forced malfunction") My guys were pretty happy with the scenario as well as their times. It was nice to change things up from regular "paper" ranges. A little bit of thought and planning resulted in a pretty good training experience. Bragging/jazzing rights were earned. LOL Had 40 shooters and went thru just a hair over 3k rounds. soldiers were allowed to run thru several times, but on subsequent runs the targets were changed up a bit. __________________ I don't make policy, I just enforce the last 300 Meters of it.

April 06, 2007, 05:43	#23
powermad Registered FALaholic #: 21150 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,216	Hats off to you guys. Good training to make it home alive.

April 06, 2007, 07:18	#24
rcnpthfndr Registered FALaholic #: 12905 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 17013 Posts: 1,161	govt1911 i will send you a nsn for machined dummy rounds you can also buy them through gsa. __________________ http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member437.png Barrett Armorer

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