Advice on which .308 to buy

[blueline541]

I'm currently looking to purchase a quality .308 rifle just for shooting at my range. We have Winchester M14s at work and I have really grown to like them. I'm considering a Springfield M1A National Match, but folks keep recommending FALs. I think they look sharp and I hear nothing but good things about them. Any advice on which specific type FAL I should consider if I don't go the M1A route?

[DrDuc]

In my experience there are not many FALs that will shoot less than 2MOA. They are not match rifles in the Bullseye sense. Plenty accurate for military work and very reliable. The M1A is more accurate. MY AR!0 is more accurate. The FAL is a great rifle but it's not a "small groups on paper" rifle.

[doktor_ecchs]

I hate to say this because FALs rule, but just for target shooting you'd probably be happier with the M1A...

as ever,
Dr. X

[JohnnyV1966]

Blueline,

I have to say its a matter of personal preferences and needs. M1as are nice rifles but require maintenance to maintain match accuracy. Further newer production M1As tend to lack as many USGI parts which raise quality concerns. I will also tell you that an accurized M1A is capable of sub moa groups. M1As have a trigger system that is potentially better than a standard FAL. M1As also are more sling friendly. Additionally when it comes to iron sights unless you have a DSA Hamption lower FAL with sight, M1As have much better iron sights

Fals on the other hand have more of an ergonomic design, better accuracy out of the box when compared with a non modified standard M1A. Fals are also easier to maintain with a break open design that allows cleaning from the chamber, while M1As require wrenches and gas piston drills. Many will also argue that the Fal is a much better design from a reliability point of view. Magazines for the Fal can be purchased for $5 compared to $35 plus for a USGI m14 magazine.

Something you might want to think about is the purchase of an AR-10 from Armalite or DPMS 308. It is my understanding that their accuracy is superior on average and come with fully adjustible sights can be cleaned from the chamber and require little maintenance to maintain peak accuracy.

Please do your own homework using a Ben Franklin pluses and minuses approach when deciding what firearm fits you best!!!

[BruceS]

When you say that there are Winchester M-14's at work, do you mean you carry one to protect yourself and others? If so, it is my humble opinion that you stick with that rifle system, so that you become the very best that you can be with it.

[blueline541]

I'm in law enforcement so, yeah, we carry them for protection. My department got them for a buck each from the government. And yes, they are full auto!

[doktor_ecchs]

Originally posted by blueline541
I'm in law enforcement so, yeah, we carry them for protection. My department got them for a buck each from the government. And yes, they are full auto!

Well then, I think you just answered yer own question... But I still like a FAL better...

as ever,
Dr. X

[blueline541]

I know next to nothing about them, but the SAR 48 is a real eye catcher. Any thoughts on availability, quality, and a decent price range for them? I'm heading to Knob Creek in April to shop around in the event I don't come across something here first.

[Windustsearch]

Thats a good FAL. To be fair you should ask the same advice on an M14 board. But IMO the M14 doesn't have any advantage except for being easily adapted to be more accurate (easy but expensive), rack grade ones are pretty much just like a FAL. If you are a target shooter looking for small groups the M14 is definately the way to go. It would be optimum to have both.

[Lon Moer]

No pistol grip = no thanks.

[armed1]

FALs shoot better than M1As. I have proven this for the last 2 years in a row at my club's battle rifle competition. The first time I shot was with a SA kit gun, pitted barrel. The targets are at 200 yards, open sights only and no "match" sights. 10 shots standing, 10 sitting, and 20 prone. Right next to me was a guy with a $1500 M1A Springfield with a match trigger, synthetic stock, black hills ammo. I used Aussie surp. I put most of my holes in an 8" group, his were sprayed around like a scattergun. I only scored a 24/40 that year because my sights weren't adjusted right for prone. The next year I came in second, out scoring 4 M1As and 3 Garands, numerous K98s, an 03A3, an SKS, and an M1 carbine. I got beaten by a guy with a Swiss K31 using handloads (it was an honor, as this guy was a great shooter).

Don't underestimate the FAL. I'll take one anyday over an M1A.

P.S. FALs are capable of MOA accuracy. I have a build with a Steyr barrel on a DSA upper and a Burris scope that regularly shoots 1 MOA with Aussie, Port, or Paki!, but not LC or SA.

Screw the M1A, get a FAL.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by armed1
I have a build with a Steyr barrel on a DSA upper and a Burris scope that regularly shoots 1 MOA with Aussie, Port, or Paki!

Please explain what you mean by "regularly shoots."

How many shots in those groups?

Firing the rounds in sequence from a magazine?

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by blueline541
I'm currently looking to purchase a quality .308 rifle just for shooting at my range. We have Winchester M14s at work and I have really grown to like them. I'm considering a Springfield M1A National Match, but folks keep recommending FALs. I think they look sharp and I hear nothing but good things about them. Any advice on which specific type FAL I should consider if I don't go the M1A route?

FAL's are just more fun to tinker with than M1A's, and they are way cooler-looking.

Plus, FAL's are hella-good battle rifles.

If you want to win an accuracy contest with a semi-auto rifle, skip the FAL and the M1A. Get something that's an AR-15 type design with a free-float barrel and a trick trigger. Nobody with other equipment wil be able to beat it in competition.

[crcksht]

And you expected what answer from the FAL board?

Ask on a M14 forum and you'll get the opposite answer.

I like both. M1A's iron sights aren't just better, they are far superior to the Fals's, as is the trigger on the M1A. In general, Fals may be more rugged and durable in a survival situation, but the M1A is the better shooter, especially when accurized. Its also easier to change mags quickly with the FAL and easier to clean and do maintenance.

If you are considering competing in matches with a .308, go with a stock M1A, or Garand and get it accurized and rebarreled.

[bob_e95482]

I have an SA "loaded" M1A that I just love. Great sights, match trigger, SStl match barrel. Sweet. My previously beloved FAL just gathers dust.

[armed1]

I can't shoot 1 MOA every day. There are things like wind and weather variations, and sometimes I'm just shooting better than others. But I can shoot 1 MOA with that FAL on a regular basis. If you don't believe me, I really don't care.

[STGThndr]

Get both while you still can. They're both fine weapons.

[Silver Fox]

+1 on that.

In all reality this debate has gone back and forth several times on multiple boards. My suggestion is to buy both. In reality (and my prediction only) that all semi auto's will increase in value with some impending legislation real soon. Buy both, you will not lose money unless your significant other needs a new deep freezer right now and you sell it for a "fair price" (sic) to appease her. Sorry I flash backed there for a second.

There were other rifles mentioned in this thread and they have been known for their issues also. It really boils down to what you are comfortable with. I have seen a $600.00 (total: rifle, scope, rings, mount, stock and trigger) out shoot a $2,000.00 set up. Go figure. It really is you with your training.

My preferred rifle is the FAL and I could go on a laundry list of reasons why I like them, but I also love the M1A.

If you do buy a FAL, get a DSA (for investment purposes I would get a Congo para or one of their STG-58 para's). Great rifle, goes bang everytime and the closet thing to a new production FAL. If you truely get the addiction (others can explain better than I, but it happened to me, 6 complete rifles, 21 kits, 12 receivers and too many magazines... yes it happened to me).

Happy hunting on choosing your rifle.

Silver Fox
Silver Fox

[blueline541]

Thanks to Silver Fox for the advice about the DSA models. I wasn't wanting a debate on which of the two styles of rifles are the best. I came to the fal board to hear good things about fals from folks who obviously know about them.

Y'all gave some good advice and I appreciate it. Thanks.

[justashooter]

ok, so here's my advice.

i love my FALs, but i'll give you $2 trade-in value on an M14 against a nice imbel on imbel from my personal collexion. i would go for it, if i were you.

[Para Driver]

Originally posted by doktor_ecchs
Well then, I think you just answered yer own question... But I still like a FAL better...
as ever,
Dr. X

+1, get an M1A and practice till the cows come home... you don't need to be thumbing a (fal type) safety, when you are carrying an M14 in goblin country..

[Bailey]

M14 / M1A system is ammo sensitive. If you shoot non-US mil spec ammo that has too sharp a pressure peak it can lead to the receiver cracking. This has been happening with shooters shooting European surplus in their M14 type rifles.

FAL, with the adjustable gas system, can handle nearly any type of 7.62 ammo.

I think the M14 type is an inherently more accurate platform, however for long term, potential survival use, the FAL is the way to go.

[SHARPSHOOTER]

Had you ask me this question about 5 or 6 years ago. I would have told you straight away that the M14 style gun was the way to fly. However the FAL and L1A1 are every bit the "practical riflemans" rig that an M14 is and more so IMHO. I know I would not trade either my FAL or L1A1 for an M14 style gun, What the FAL lacks in target accuracy it makes up for in many other areas. And again the FAL has all the "Practical Accuracy" I could ever ask for. The economics were better when i built my two FAL style guns as well.

[Diomed]

Originally posted by Bailey
M14 / M1A system is ammo sensitive. If you shoot non-US mil spec ammo that has too sharp a pressure peak it can lead to the receiver cracking. This has been happening with shooters shooting European surplus in their M14 type rifles.

I've never heard of this before. Link?

[blueline541]

Well, the deal on the M1A NM fell through. Any suggestions on specific fals to look for or are the DSA models the best for the money?

[doktor_ecchs]

Originally posted by blueline541
are the DSA models the best for the money?

IMO, yes...

as ever,
Dr. X

[doktor_ecchs]

Originally posted by blueline541
Well, the deal on the M1A NM fell through...

a Sign from the FAL gods...

as ever,
Dr. X

[mdlmkr 7.62]

FAL, FAL, FAL, FAL, FAL!

7.62

[8654-1ea.]

Wait a few months and buy a Rock River LAR-10... you have all modularity and aftermarket goodies as the AR-15, it funchtions just like the AR's your dept. has, and it is less than 1 MOA if you do your part. It takes FAL mags so you can use them on the FAL you'll eventually get as well.

Reliable M1A mags are way too much money. If you get 15 or so mags, you could damn near afford another rifle.

GO WITH LAR-10...

OUT-

[Mebsuta]

Get an FAL. The M1a is too expensive. Otherwise, get the least costly Garand from CMP and install a new commercial .308 barrel. Then you can blast away until you are satisfied.

[tgd31968]

I have one of each.

If you are only gonna get one, go with the M1A. With match ammo, mine will shoot 0.5 to 0.75" groups at 100 yards (scoped off a rest) I can't hold it steady enough for that myself.

Mine is a SA national match. SA, fulton armory make good ones. They are pricy, but you get what you pay for.

Also, for me, the balance of the FAL is akward at best. I like its style, the look, and it has a great history. BUT from handleing standpoint, it is akward. Maybe the carbine version is better, but I don't own one.

Another thing to consider is that a wood stocked, non pistol gripped rifle will fly under the commie gun grabber radar longer....

[1carlson]

Originally posted by tgd31968
IAnother thing to consider is that a wood stocked, non pistol gripped rifle will fly under the commie gun grabber radar longer....

That is the best reason to buy an FAL, and affix the bayonet!
Our willingness to be ashamed of our guns because they "look bad" makes us complicit in their scheme.
If liberals want to fight crime, let them come up with real innovation in rehabilitation and deterence, rather than making more things illegal. Don't they know that criminalizing lawful behavior will only increase the crime rate, not decrease it.

[1carlson]

as far as a deal on an FAL, I just saw this one on ARF.com
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=414316

Imbel receiver, new DSA barrel. ready to drive tacks, just short on looks, and its cheap.
I have never seen the gun (not mine, can't vouch for it etc), but might be worth an email to the seller.
Also on that same board, a DSA SA58
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=412807
More money, but prettier.

[1carlson]

Here is a beauty right here on our own FAL board
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...hreadid=193289
SAR-48
A nice kit with DSA recaiver, again needs a little cosmetic attention
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...hreadid=192812
With all of these great deals on FALs, you should buy two or three to start with!

[Bailey]

I was showing my FAL to the Lt. Col running the WA National Guard Shooting Team and he told me that he knew of instances of people cracking their M14 type receivers shooting European surplus. He was not sure whether it was German or Austrian ammo, but he said that the FAL was better in terms of safely being able to use just about any 7.62 NATO ammo.

The following information explains why the M14 / M1A and also M1 Garand systems are ammo sensitive.

http://www.m-14forum.com/upload/showthread.php?t=35392

Reloading for the M1A and Garand

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was not in the military but I can talk military if I want to and as it offends the gentle today---so my comments about "experts" telling you all not to reload is a crock, and that comment is gentle compared to what I would like to say!! I ain't no expert, but I READ TONS of stuff. And I do reload. The problem with loading for a gas gun is the pressure curve of the burning powder (where the high pressure ends up in a rifle barrel as it pushes the bullet out the muzzle). Smokeless propellent does not ignite and raise to max pressure all at one time as blackpowder does. It 'pushes' the slug, gradually speeding it up and increasing pressure as it goes. The gas port of a rifle that is drilled into the barrel is put precisely where the correct barrel pressure to operate that rifle with a load designed for that rifle--NATO SPEC--is going to occur. The Garand has this little gas hole near the muzzle end of the barrel where pressure is lowest (the pressure curve is coming down at that point). The M1A has its hole located a bit differently due to differant internal pressure for the 7.62x51 cartridge. The "problem" is that the Garand and the M1A were designed for a cartridge using "medium burning powder". Most loading manuals will tell you what those powders are. The rifle was designed to operate with a standard slug of between 147-150 grains. This does not mean you can't use lighter or heavier slugs. Read the manuals and they will tell you the recipes. Be careful of the heavy slugs as they will raise the pressure at the gas port so that it is more than the gun needs to operate and you will begin to batter the action. Slow burning propellent has a higher presssure curve as it gets near the muzzle. It burns slower, thus reaches its peak pressure slower---right where you don't want it to--at a gas port that was designed to intake lower pressure from medium burning powder. If your casings eject a mile away, you are battering the action. The Garand and M1-A's are gentle ejectors. The object of a good reload in a Garand or M1-A is to get the cases to eject to the right front of you on a neat little pile, five or six feet away. THAT is the ultimate reload! If you can do this, your accuracy on target is going to be superb. Now, the M1A/14 has a neat little valve that was designed to shut the gas system off so that a grenade could be lauched with a grenade blank. If you are happy with a single shot sort of operation, turn the gas valve off and operate the action as you would a straight pull Swiss K-31 rifle. Gas concerns are nil as the system has been shut off and all gas is going out the muzzle. BUT, and a big BUTT here: If you are using some odd-ball powder in a reload that is not medium burning, do not turn the gas system back on and fire this cartridge! (See prior comments re: slow powder)
The Garand has no adjustable gas system. You have to use MEDIUM BURNING POWDER IN THIS RIFLE! Or, get yourself an adjustable Schuster gas plug available from Brownell's and follow the directions. Schuster makes a plug for both rifles and you can use slower powder. FOLLOW DIRECTIONS THAT COME WITH THIS ADJUSTBLE PLUG!
I just got such a plug for my M1A but the Wisconsin winter temperatures are here and setting the plug to operate with colder temps would mean you have to do it again when it gets warmer out. But, I will anyway as soon as it is "decently cold" outside, not the minus15 it was this morning! As one other member has noted here, there is no manufacturer who will condone the use of reloaded ammo. Why? Because there are some real jerks out there in shooter land who don't have a clue about shooting, let alone about reloading! The "expert" mentioned builds excellent rifles but the very nature of his business precludes him from going along with reloaded ammo, even though he knows this is being done SAFELY everyday! As I said at the start of my post, I ain't no expert! I learn everyday. I have not wrecked a rifle yet, never came even close because I take my time and I READ ALL I CAN ABOUT THIS HOBBY BEFORE I DO ANYTHING! That's my story, I guess. I will be glad to help where I can. First, though, YOU READ AND YOU TAKE YOUR TIME! Then ask your questions and someone here who is damned experienced but no expert will answer you best they can!
Greg T.
Northwest Wisconsin