10mm

[MichonRAFW]

I finally went out and test fired a 10mm (glock 20) the other day after months of curiosity, spawned by my former college roomate telling me the history of the caliber. First shot gave me that big ol shit eatin grin and sure put my Glock 19 to shame. 50 rounds of blazer went by awfully quick and had my mind racing, thinking of ways to afford one. I think I'm hooked on 10mm now, although realistically it would be hard not to. How could someone not love 15, 200 grain slugs cooking along at 1200 fps. Even with the blazer only tooling along at 1000fps it was still a blast.

The 8.5x11" Osama head target ended up nicely perforatted out there at 50ft. For my last 10rds I brought the target back to 25ft for double-taps and found that the pairs were easily controlled and took only slightly longer over doubles with my glock 19. Looks like .40S&W will hereafter be thought of as the 40 Short and Weak to me. I don't know why people complain about the size of the grip on the glock 20 and 21. I have small hands and so long as you grip it properly and don't palm the back strap it fit me like a glove.

Now, how many other falers out there are fans of the 10mm? Does anyone besides double-tap make true full power 10mm? Anyone know someone looking to get rid of a Glock 20 real cheap?

Ryan

[Deltaten]

Ah-h-h, Ryan...
Welcome to our little dark corner. Shhhhshhhh! DOn't say anything too loud.SOmeone might hear, and be tempted like you were. Afore ya know it, there'd be 10mm noobs all over the place, scarfing up the remnants of cheap (?) ammo and all the left-behind-at-the-range brass . There's more of us here than you'd have imagined.Some may even come out of the gun-room ta answer the call of the wild(er caliber).

Sure...most of my 10mm fodder is FBI-lite variety; but I still hold some full-house in reserve for the time I *may* have to kill an elephant, T-Rex or an M1A1 Abrams

Now you really *have* been assimilated..FALs AND 10mm. Good enuf for the Nuge ; good enuf for me (IIRC< I had mine before he had his! )

Woo-hoo!
Paul

[USMC 0341]

Yup. 10mm Auto is the only rimless round I would consider to use in place of the 45 ACP for serious purposes.

I got my Glock 20 last year and really like the package. I don't know what all the fuss is about "too big" or "too much recoil". Stout maybe but no big deal. Even my shooting novice, Asian/light-boned wife shot my Glock 20 without any negative comments.

I am in the process of converting a full sized Para Ordnance from 40 Shrimpy-Wimpy to 10mm Auto.

About the only thing I would wish for would be a JHP projectile in about 210 to 225 grains. 200 is good but a bit more would be great.

[Wadman]

There aren't as many as we'd like but there's still a good number of us. There's so many interesting ones out there too. There's the Springfield Omega, the original Bren Ten, two production runs of the S&W 610 revolver, the Dan Wesson Razorback, and a couple of others I can't recall. The most prolific are probably the S&W 1006, Colt Delta, and the G20. Heck there's even a 10mm Magnum. Can't recall the ballistics on the Magnum.

[Deltaten]

Wadman:

IIRC; the specs on the mag were about 15% higher. I don't recall EVER seeing one in actual production. The LAR Grizzly and the DE series were about the only pistols big enough to handle the round.

I'da *loved* to have a carbine in 10mag; hell!, even 10 mm! Rhinekland *was* gona do some conversions, but lost interest and sold off the bbls and such piecemeal.
Other than the Mech-tec top ends and the TC contender carbines, I don't think any mfgr ever made it into production. A meeper conversion w/a Wms Elite rcvr, hidumium lower and lt. wt. bbl would be a hoot!

The Bren chat board had a list of several ammo makers that did some impressivve work on hi-speed, heavy ball loads..but, at a price

Best,
Paul

[Adventurer_96]

10mm = ultimate handgun semiauto round seen to date, IMHO.

I love it.

[hedp]

Bestest semi auto handgun round out there far as I 'm concerned. Love my G20, would like a Kimber or DW 1911 10mil to go with.

[Sumoj275]

I have always regreted getting rid of the old Glock 20 I had. I would love another 10mm pistol, probably in the 1911 package because that is what I am accustomed to now. A friend has the Glock 29 and that was a little much for me in a small package.

Take care and long live the 10mm!

[Wadman]

Originally posted by Deltaten
Wadman:

IIRC; the specs on the mag were about 15% higher. I don't recall EVER seeing one in actual production. The LAR Grizzly and the DE series were about the only pistols big enough to handle the round.

I'da *loved* to have a carbine in 10mag; hell!, even 10 mm! Rhinekland *was* gona do some conversions, but lost interest and sold off the bbls and such piecemeal.
Other than the Mech-tec top ends and the TC contender carbines, I don't think any mfgr ever made it into production. A meeper conversion w/a Wms Elite rcvr, hidumium lower and lt. wt. bbl would be a hoot!

The Bren chat board had a list of several ammo makers that did some impressivve work on hi-speed, heavy ball loads..but, at a price

Best,
Paul

Does Olympic Arms still make 10mm AR uppers?

[Jurassic Jake]

Have been an avid fan and shooter of 10mm for many years. Started out with a 1006 and years later added a 610 to the family. Both are accurate and dump truck tough to handle origional spec ammo.

On my short list is the Glock 20 and the Witness 10. Two more fine examples big boy toys that handle one of my favorite calibers.

Most of the commercial loadings are barely hotter than the 40s&w. To really experience what the ten is all about, roll your own for maximum shooting enjoyment, or try a few of the offerings from Double Tap.

Tis a shame the gun rags have pronouced it dead. It's right up there with 45 auto, and between 10s and 45s and my weakness for black rifles, I'm going to end up broke but very happy some day.

Jake

[the gman]

Ain't no way the 10 is dead, buncha BS pushed by azzholes that don't know their azz from thier elbows.....

I own over 20 10mm's & carry one every day &, not ONE of them is a friggin' Block.... Buncha plastic crap....

I love my Bren 10's but the Delta is my favorite bar none. I have the Springfield Omega, 610, DE Gold Cups & a bunch of the rest of the guns listed. I love them all. I have a MechTec conversion for my DE's & it rocks! My next 10mm will be a Vector MP10 SBR as my company can get me a registered sear for it for pennies, what's not to like???

Beware, 10mm's are addictive, just like FAL's..........

[Adventurer_96]

A Bren Ten is on my list, too bad I've never seen one for sale out here. They must keep them with the double underfolder AKs...

[whirlibird]

If I didn't have .45's before I got my first 10mm, I'd have nothing but 10's for big bore auto's.

Do I like them? Hard to say, I only have three. A Colt Delta, a Smith 1076 and (for shame) a Glock 20. Guess I'll just have to get a few more to help decide.

Cor-Bon srill makes some of the best 10mm ammo out there.
Winchester hasn't yet castrated the 175gr Silvertip either, it's my favorite "heavy" JHP for the 10.
And Black Hills was making a decent hot load IIRC, but don't hold me to that.

And if you really want a Glock, a local police supply house has a 29 (slightly used) in their cabinet for @$350 IIRC (don't hold me to that either).

If you're interested, either call them at 800-530-2015 or E-mail Dave at

thegunguy@nevesuniforms.com

I get nothing from this, just helping fellow Filer's find toys.

[Ssarge]

I had one of the very first Delta Elite's when the only ammo around was the original Norma 10mm loads. Talk about Whoa! That was some hot shit! I was on the list to get a Bren 10 when D&D went tit's up and had to settle for the Delta, the early one's were, shall we say "rough". The sights weren't even close to being graduated to the ammo, the slide to frame fit was rougher than a cob and spare mag's were as scarce as Bren 10 mags, but it was a 10mm!

[Azrial]

I have two Glock 20's with Lasers that I carry in a custom dual cross-draw shoulder rig. And, I carried it on duty for a while when I was assigned to a task force!

Yep. I like the 10mm, the only round I like more then the .45 ACP.

[Hole_Puncher]

Mmmmmm 10mm great round.

I remember years ago when I bought a Colt Doble Eagle in 10mm. Took it to the range and fired it and said ooooo baby I like it.

Couple of years ago I bought a Glock 29. Now that is fun. All that power in a baby Glock. Love the flame coming out the barrel.

Best round made since they came up with the .45acp.

Do be careful though as was said they are addictive.

[cabioman]

I'm getting 200 grain gold dots at 1030 FPS out of my .45acp Smith mountain gun with factory ammo! I'm told I can safely use the factory 200 grain .45 supers at 1250 FPS out of it as well, but then I would be payin' the same prices for ammo that you 10mm guys are!

Just bust'n your chops gents. I love the 10mm too.

[MichonRAFW]

Thanks for the heads up on the glock 29. I was really hoping for the full size 20 but at that price I may have to cave in.
Ryan

[Skilter]

Some outfit is making a semi-HK style MP5/10 again. I don't remember who it is or how much, but it is out there. I see it advertised in Small Arms Review each month.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by cabioman
I'm getting 200 grain gold dots at 1030 FPS out of my .45acp Smith mountain gun! I'm told I can safely use the 200 grain .45 supers at 1250 FPS out of it as well, but then I would be payin' the same prices for ammo that you 10mm guys are!

Just bust'n your chops gents. I love the 10mm too.

Not busting my chops! I have several .45's and like them. But none of them are ballistically up to the 10mm.

Texas Ammo sells a 200gn load using Hornady bullets @ 1250fps = 694ft-lbs.

I have a personal handload that puts Hornady 200 grain XTP bullets moving at 1315 FPS with 760 ft. lbs of energy. Plus it will do it 17 times before I reload.

I have never bothered to check what I am getting with the Glock Factory 6" barrel that I bought for it to make it legal for hunting in Georgia.

How many shots you getting between reloads?

I don't think any reasonable sized carry handgun will put more energy on a target faster then a Glock, Bren, or other Hi-Cap 10mm.

Seriously, nice old revolver.

[Old Sarge]

Count me in. I fired a Delta years ago and fell in love with it. What I want now are a Glock 20 and a carbine made to take the mag from the G 20.

Now as for the carbine? I have wondered if you couldn't take a Ruger PC40 rifle and have it built up to a 10MM? I know the PSI with the 10 would be more. Then you would have to do somthing about making the bolt lock for firing. But anyone think it could be done??

Old Sarge

[Ssarge]

Originally posted by Adventurer_96
A Bren Ten is on my list, too bad I've never seen one for sale out here. They must keep them with the double underfolder AKs...

Look on gunbroker. They have 4 for sale right now, a couple are NIB and one very rare Special Forces model. If my hand wasn't toast, I'd have to grab one, might do it anyway since I've had a hard on for one since D&D first produced them.

[cabioman]

Azriel, 200 grains at 1310 is really cookin'. Good job! Triton is advertizing 230 grains at 1150 with the .45 super. What does that calc to for power?

Well, you absolutely have me beat when it comes to the number of rounds I can shoot between reloads. Throw weight has really become less important to me now that I'm no longer working on the battlefield. I only get 6 out of my Smith, but if you haven't shot a finely made revolver lately, you are really cheating yourself out of a great experience. I can't quite put it in to words, but my revolvers just have more charm and life in them than my autos do.

I have let a few gents shoot my smiths on the range. Almost to a one, they have shown back up on the line with new revolvers!

Cheers
Lou

PS: Don't shoot that Smith unless you have some disposable income!

[Forest-Rune]

hey,

i have never fired a 10mm, but I thought that it had a reputation as a really poor performer... Lotsa power, but "over penetrated" and just punched holes in stuff with out the groovy energy-dump. What's the story with that? If the 10mm is such an awesome round, why don't more Police departments and people carry them?

~~~ i'm not trying to start a fight, that's just what i heard. What is the real story? maybe i'll buy one

[Wadman]

Originally posted by Forest-Rune
hey,

i have never fired a 10mm, but I thought that it had a reputation as a really poor performer... Lotsa power, but "over penetrated" and just punched holes in stuff with out the groovy energy-dump. What's the story with that? If the 10mm is such an awesome round, why don't more Police departments and people carry them?

~~~ i'm not trying to start a fight, that's just what i heard. What is the real story? maybe i'll buy one

The gun rags said police complained there was too much muzzle flip and getting back on target took too long for followup shots. If true, I think it's a lousy excuse. Full power 357 magnums recoil pretty good too. That didn't stop a lot of cops from carrying it.

As far as overpenetrating, I think that's crap too. Isn't a heavy expanding bullet that penetrates deeply to reach major blood vessels and blood bearing organs what you want? Oh, living tissue is very resilient to the phenomena described as "energy dump."

[MichonRAFW]

The only reason the fbi dropped the 10mm and most law enforcement departments dont use it is due to women...... Seriously. Women, small guys, and people unaccustomed to recoil found the power of the 10 to be a pain. They couldn't shoot well, developed a flinch, and were not comfortable with it. Thus, the 40 short and weak was developed that weenies could shoot and handle better.

IIRC the 200grain 10mm load had a tendancy to overpenetrate-mostly in FMJ or a round with poor expansion capabilities. The 135 and 150gn loads dump everything and the 180s should too as long as they expand.

Not to mention, people have gotten fatter over the past few years- we ain't shooting skinnies anymore

Somebody with more expertise will expand and correct my terminal ballistics statement.

[USMC 0341]

I have read through a thread on another site from a guy who regularly disposes of feral animals on a few hundred acres of land. He uses 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP mostly and posts the results with photos.

From what he says the 175 grain Silver Tip 10mm ammo gives consistent, uniform expansion to between 75 and 80 caliber and goes 14 to 16 inches deep in living tissue. I can't ask for much more than that.

A number of other factory loads for the 10mm are using projectiles designed for the 40 S&W cartridge which means they are made to perform at slower speeds. So in the 10mm some factory rounds open too far, too fast and end up peeling back to a smaller diameter than desired.

There are quite a few really great, hard hitting 10mm rounds out there and there are some to be left on the range. Since the 10mm fan base is still a minor market in terms of population I guess the big bullet makers are not giving us all that much attention.

[Jurassic Jake]

Another issue preventing wide spread institutional acceptance is the length of loaded 10mm rounds requiring a deeper grip. Smaller handed shooters had issues with controlling the sharper recoil impulse of the ten with the 45 sized handle.

To please administrators, the 9mm/40s&w sized frame was adopted. Fit more hands comfortably and was easier to control for inexperienced shooters. Try to imagine an organization upgrading from 158gr lead roundnosed 38 special to something on the order of a 1006 filled with hot Norma loads.

I think that with today's technology the ten deserves another look. Consider a ported barrel and a recoil spring setup similar to the one used by HK in the USP. That ought to tame some of that muzzle flip and sharp rap when touching one off. Just a thought.

Jake

[Adventurer_96]

Originally posted by Ssarge


Look on gunbroker. They have 4 for sale right now, a couple are NIB and one very rare Special Forces model. If my hand wasn't toast, I'd have to grab one, might do it anyway since I've had a hard on for one since D&D first produced them.

I can't look at Gunbroker anymore. Seriously, I'm deploying this weekend for 4 months and with my luck I'd find a nice Bren Ten or double underfolder, only to be in a position where I couldn't get it in time. But, I guess that's what I'll have to do to find them in a few months.

[whirlibird]

There was a H&K USP .40 that was converted to 10mm on another site. Very interesting package.

Used metal hi-cap magazines in place of the factory polymers.

http://www.sig-550.com/USP10/index.htm

[larphred]

10mm = ultimate handgun semiauto round seen to date, IMHO.

I love it.

But Pete, it ain't no niner???????

[Windustsearch]

My only experience with 10 mm was a Glock 20. It had very little muzzle flip and in my hands stayed on target better than a 9 mm or a .45. The recoil pulse was much more marked, but that gun stayed on target.

[EDBSO]

G29 owner here as my daily carry and love it. Double Tap is the best I have found that has various loads for various jobs. I think the 10mm got a bit of a bad rap early on because of it's tendency to over penetrate on soft targets and that was a main reason why the govt agencies went to the 40.
Plus the 40 was mo better for some with smaller hands.

Bottom line....I'm a 10mm addict along with the rest of the motely crew.

[Azrial]

Originally posted by EDBSO
Plus the 40 was mo better for some with smaller hands.

That and the fact that it is an experts caliber, something that modern police work and training does not tend to foster for the average officer, has been the major reason for the 10mm lack of popularity.

"Dumming down for the masses," has caused more of a general decline in our society then any other single reason.

[History Nut]

I too have a Glock 20. I am slowly building up my ammo supply for it. I would also like to add my vote to a carbine in 10mm.

[AndyC]

.45 addict here, but I will be getting a 10mm as soon as I'm permitted

[Windustsearch]

10 mm carbine, hmm. Pretty sure they made 10 mm Thompsons for awhile, don't know if they still do or not.

[Jurassic Jake]

The thing that makes the Glock so great for handling powerful cartridges like the ten is it's low bore centerline. It's down close to the hand and has less leverage to work against control recovery. Couple that with Glock's fast trigger reset and you can direct a lot of hurt on target in a hurry.

Smith & Wesson has it's barrell way up there and in spite of it's heavy all steel mass, manages to move around a bit more.

I'd love to see a factory issue of the USP in 10mm, but I just don't see HK doing anything of the sort for the average Joe. I'd buy a couple in a heartbeat and so would a bunch more shooters. Stubborn bunch...

Jake

[USMC 0341]

Originally posted by AndyC
.45 addict here, but I will be getting a 10mm as soon as I'm permitted

And you won't be going wrong Andy. I'm pretty much of the same opinion as you.

The gun owners' landscape would be a much better place if the 1980's had given us a plethora of "Wonder 10's" instead of the dipstick "wonder 9's" that were spawned.

I know some people have converted USP's to run on the 10mm Auto but the magazines (usually from the Witness) they have to work with stick out the bottom an inch or so - rather dorky. If Oberndorf ever decided to market a 10mm USP I would order two or three as soon as they were available.

The good thing about converting a Para-Ord 16-40 is that it was designed to run on the 10mm round so the magazines work fine and there isn't much you have to change. Just make sure to get a ramped 1911 barrel, not a standard 1911 barrel. AMHIK.

[Wolf Spyder]

The 10mm is a good caliber.

I tell people that they should take their pet .45 or .40 and shoot a target at point blank range. I will stand back from that target 100 meters and shoot the very same target. My 10mm bullet will strike that target after travelling 100 meters, with more energy than their bullet at point blank range.

I have the Glock 20 with a bunch of 15 round magazines.







I do a fair amount of shooting, and I focus on the 10mm above any other pistol caliber. I would also like to say that the 10mm is not for every one. For most people I think the Glock model 19 is the ideal sidearm. Point and shoot. It takes a special person to stick with the 10mm. The cost to feed the 10mm is enough to put most people off.

Forest-Rune --

hey,

i have never fired a 10mm, but I thought that it had a reputation as a really poor performer... Lotsa power, but "over penetrated" and just punched holes in stuff with out the groovy energy-dump. What's the story with that? If the 10mm is such an awesome round, why don't more Police departments and people carry them?

Forest, bullet design has alot to do with this. In the early 1990's the high-tech bullets were not quite ready just yet. Another person on this thread mentioned the same thing. Manufacturers were taking bullets designed to work with the 9mm or the .45 and adapting them to the 10mm and the .40 S&W. Then the wonder bullets came into the picture and now we have all of these truely great designs that function much better than anything before it.

Several months ago I read about a bullet that acts like an AP round when it strikes non-living material. However, when it strikes human tissue it "explodes". So I think it really does not matter too much what caliber you like the best... they have a high-tech bullet for you.

That being said, Double Tap Ammo and Texas Ammo has some great stuff for self-defense. Some of it produces more than 700 foot lbs of energy.

I personally target practise with Win Clean .40 S&W (white box) and Remington 10mm (I reload the empty cases). I am looking for a Kimber or Dan Wesson in 10mm but it is hard to do better than the Glock 20 with a bunch of 15 round magazines.

I would go to a shooting range and play with one before I bought it. If you choose a 10mm it will grow on you. Stay safe and good luck.

[Adventurer_96]

Originally posted by larphred

But Pete, it ain't no niner???????

Ha ha ha, that's right. It ain't no .50 cal though, either!

True, I prefer 9mm right now because of what I shoot pistol-wise, but the 10mm is the best handgun round IMHO.

[Ssarge]

Another reason the Feeb's didn't like the 10mm once they got it was the weight of the 1076. Imagine trying to carry one in a suit? When they would show up at bank robbery's etc. they would never have their pistol's on, they would have them under the seat, or in a breif case. They were simply too heavy to wear with dress trousers!
Also the 1076 was years in the works with teeting problems. They just couldn't get them to work, even with FedLite ammo. Then there was the problem of why have a round that duplicated .40S&W (or the other way around) in a very heavy pistol when you could simply issue a Glock 23 that every one could carry and shoot with higher capacity? That was what finally killed off the 10mm in FBI service, the 180gr bullet at 950 f.p.s. being duplicated by S&W and Olin/Winchester killed off the law enforcement 10mm. No one, except individual officers used full house (and those rounds were not as hot as the original Norma loadings) 10mm. They simply are too difficult to control under rapid fire and are apt to over penetrate. This is a concern, Jeff Cooper didn't think the 10mm should be a pistol round. He always thought it should be an SMG or carbine round. And in police work you have to work with women and men that are not 6'4" like I am.
I also have carried heavy pistols for very long periods, frankly I prefer the lighter pistol on my back. With all the gear you have to carry, an extra couple of pounds of pistol steel and ammo weight do make a difference!
The 10mm is a good round, it's just not a good LE round.

[Wolf Spyder]

S&W bungled that whole project. My dislike of S&W started then and has not let up. Rotten bastards.

The 10mm bungle.

The rash of Stainless Steel pistols that rusted horribly in the early 90's.

The sell out to the Federal Government.



You know... What the hell is wrong with the gun industry? Ruger sold us out with the Bush 41 importation ban. Colt and H&K are anti Civilian market snobs, and S&W sold us out with the Clinton's...

Am I missing anything?


Anyway, back to the 10mm. I love it. If you have a chance to shoot the Glock 20, I think you should.

[Wadman]

And speaking of 10mm's, has anyone bought anything from recently from the revamped Dan Wesson under CZ-USA ownership? A friend sent me a link to their website and it shows the Razorback. Unfortunately, it looks like everything took a big price hike.

Dan Wesson / CZ-USA

[Azrial]

Originally posted by Ssarge
Another reason the Feeb's didn't like the 10mm once they got it was the weight of the 1076. Imagine trying to carry one in a suit? When they would show up at bank robbery's etc. they would never have their pistol's on, they would have them under the seat, or in a breif case. They were simply too heavy to wear with dress trousers!

Really, maybe for the feds, but I regularly carried my Glock 20, with a TLR-2, in a custom holster under a suit at the State Capitol where my office was. I have NEVER left my pistol in my car. I guess that is due to years as a lowly police and not thinking I can schedule my armed engagements. Frankly the average Fed does not have must to teach the average officer from a busy metro area when it comes to violent engagements.

No offense if you were a Fed, but I think they came to the same conclusion after the Miami shootout.

Originally posted by Ssarge
The 10mm is a good round, it's just not a good LE round.

I respect your opinion, it seems based on experience, but I disagree. The 10mm is no tougher to handle then a hot .357 load in a model 66. As to over-penetration, well that can be be bad when working in a house, but the truth is that most LE misses are complete airballs.

However under penetration is a big issue. When a heavy coat with a .38, or a 2x4 with a .45ACP is as good as a Kevlar vest, that is a problem.

[Timber Wolf]

You guys are going to make me blow the dust off my safe queen G20 and go shoot it some. I know right where it is, sitting on top of my G21 that does not get shot either. Seriously, I am one of those small handed people that do not like the size of the grip, and danged if I don't have a $1000 tied up in the two of them and spare mags. Anyway, I know they are great guns and I hope to work with them enough to get proficient with them one day. I even have a few boxes of the old hot-rod Norma 10mm squirreled away for the Zombie attack. I would love to have a 10mm Marlin Camp carbine to go with my 9mm and .45 Camps. Now that would be a sweet little truck gun.

[splattermatic]

i've got an IAI javelina long slide in 10mm...
love it.

also picked up 4 boxes of black talons for it.
gotta have some home defense rounds or shtf stuff ya know.

[Wadman]

Originally posted by splattermatic
i've got an IAI javelina long slide in 10mm...
love it.

also picked up 4 boxes of black talons for it.
gotta have some home defense rounds or shtf stuff ya know.

That seems like a pretty rare one. It's probably right up there with the Omega. In terms of frame strengthening, how much work is actually involved with producing a 1911 style pistol in 10mm? The gun rags try to kill it but threads like this would indicate something more than a cult following for this caliber.

[splattermatic]

dunno those answers ??
guess it's rare ??

here it is with a 10 rounder in it ..

[Azrial]

Very Neat Pistol!