Question about an Ithica 1911

[falfred]

I recently bought from a good friend an interesting 1911. The slide is marked on the left side Ithica gun company inc., and below it is marked ithica n.y., all in capital letters. The frame is marked 'united states property' on the left side. What is strange is that the frame was made by Colt in 1918. ???( I managed to run the serial # 3210xx) The trigger is very long, and the hammer is different from any I have ever seen. The grip in back is straight at the bottom instead of curved also. I don't know anything about 1911's, but I would like to know what the heck this one is. It shoots fine with no jams and is in really good shape.
Thanks, Fred

[16R40]

your pistol is a "put together"........the receiver is a 1911 with a WW2 production slide on it.

[falfred]

Thanks for the info. My friends Dad carried this in WW2, and I promised I would find out about it. Must be re-arsenaldeded

[AndyC]

You mean "Ithaca", surely?

[Sgt_Gold]

From the sound of it you have a parts gun, although an interesting one. The Ithica slide and all it's parts, (assuming the parts are original as well), are WWII vintage. The frame sounds like an original 1911 part. Without exception, all 1911's upgraded to A1 configuration had the short trigger and arched mainspring housing. The hammer sounds like one of the wide Colt hammers that were replaced by the narrow WWII units during any number of arsenal reworks. Another giveaway to the history of this pistol is if the finnish on the frame and slide match, the pistol was reworked. If the finnish dosen't match the parts were never sent through a rework together.

[falfred]

Thanks gents. The finish is uniform throughout, but I don't know about the rest of the parts being correct. It is a neat old pistol and shoots great, so I am content with it. I will try to post a picture here soon.
Regards, Fred

[Sgt_Gold]

Originally posted by mediawhore
There is a sad trend in collecting right now to make things "correct" that has destroyed plenty of fabulous items.

There is nothing wrong with locating the 'correct' parts to 'restore' a firearm. The harm comes in refinishing the firearm. An original gun with a well worn finish is worth more than the same gun with a factory new refinish.

Factories traded parts, had shops that "fixed" out of spec parts and returned them to the assembly lines, plus who knows what else in a time of war.

While this is true, 1911's for the most part didn't suffer from this problem as much as M-1 Garands and M-1 carbines. Colt 1911's were SN# matched from the factory, and slides and frames were ususally kept together. The 1911 wasn't subjected to nearly the number of running changes that the rifles were. In the 1980's we had 1911A1's that still had some WWII parts on them.

[Douglas Wozny]

If I were you, the first thing I would do is find one of the forums that deal with the M1911 pistol and seek information from there. Second, if this pistol was truely carried by your friend's father in WW2 it is most likely an arsenal rebuild. Many M1911's were sent to arsenal for "clean and repair" where unservicealbe part were replaced by new parts. This was especially true at the beginning of WW2 and after WW2.

Sgt Gold - The M1911 and M1911A1 pistol were NOT serial number matched when they left the factory. The serial number only appeared on the reciever. Very early Colt produced M1911's may have had part of the serial number on the slide but this was discontinued as WW1 demand increased.

[Sgt_Gold]

Originally posted by Douglas Wozny
If I were you, the first thing I would do is find one of the forums that deal with the M1911 pistol and seek information from there.

Try these.

http://forums.1911forum.com/
http://www.coolgunsite.com/
http://www.m1911.org/


Second, if this pistol was truely carried by your friend's father in WW2 it is most likely an arsenal rebuild. Many M1911's were sent to arsenal for "clean and repair" where unservicealbe part were replaced by new parts. This was especially true at the beginning of WW2 and after WW2.

Without actually seeing the pistol, it's impossible to know if it was rearsenaled. The lack of A1 features on the frame indicates that the frame was not updated. The non matching slide may mean either a catastrophic gun cleaning accident, or someone's lunch box special. I have a complete 1942 Colt frame and parts with a US&S slide. The pistol has no rearsenal marks on it, and both the slide and frame are different colors.

Sgt Gold - The M1911 and M1911A1 pistol were NOT serial number matched when they left the factory. The serial number only appeared on the reciever. Very early Colt produced M1911's may have had part of the serial number on the slide but this was discontinued as WW1 demand increased.

Colt SN'd their entire pistol through 1943, and was the only manufacturer to do so. Almost all the post WWI 1911's were Colt's. The only other substantial producer of 1911's during WWI was the government arsenal, Springfield Armory. NAA, Remington, and Savage all produced a handfull of pistols and spare parts.

[TerryN]

It's entirely possible that this pistol was assembled with the current parts assortment in preparation for an inspection - all of the unit's pistols were disassembled for clean and lube, and Snuffy didn't bother keeping the slides and frames together. It's also entirely possible that the original slide was replaced with the Ithaca slide for any number of reasons. I used to get Ithaca, Remington Rand, and Colt replacement slides up until the early 80s; after that they were usually Israeli (TZZ marked). This was at the 'Field' or Direct Support level, and nobody cared what slide went on what frame, as long as everything worked when you were finished.

[Douglas Wozny]

Sgt Gold,

According the the 1911 Forum "it wasn't until 1937 at serial number 710001 that Colt's began regularly numbering slides on the military contract pistols. Numbering was discontinued by about s/n 1,140,000 in 1943." Also Colt did not "SN'd their entire pistol" to the reciever but only the slide. There are any number of reasons for a mismatched slide and receiver. Whether this was an authorized replacement or unauthorized replacement is lost to history. It is what it is an example of what the U. S. military used.

[whatnow]

Could have been field assembled wrong or it could have been rebuilt. Should have R.I.A. or another Armory stamped on the frame if this is the case.

Bill

[Pluribus]

IIRC, Springfield Armory supplied Ithaca with approximately 2,000 Colt 1911 frames in 1942-43 to begin production. These were from salvage and stored by them for use as required for re-arsenal repair.

I have an Ithaca made in 1943 with a Colt 1911 receiver made in 1918 that I bought in 1978 for $75. The joy stops though, as in, the craze of buying surplus and, customizing them. My slide has had the ejection port opened and, the frame was modified for high grip as well as the rails peined and tightened to the slide after the slide rails were trued and then squeezed.

Alas, if we (me) thought like we do now.

But, then, y'know, it was just an old Army gun.

But hey, it shoots like a house a'fire and, is still quite accurate.