Opinions on Fightin' Bowies

[WarriorPoet]

So, what do you guys think of Bowie-type "fighting" knives? I'm interested in these for several reasons. I'm mostly interested in the history/reputation of the blade....not so much the practical uses in a modern day world.

I'm aware of all the legal issues in regards to knives ('round here, no fixed blades, and folder lengths are limited to something like 5" or less). I'm not going for concealed carry here.

A Bowie purchase would be for training (mental/physical exercise and a useful skill, no matter what) with a slight nod toward collecting - Yes, I'd get a rubber/wood knife for practice, but it'd be good to handle the real thing to get a better feel.

At best, a big Bowie could be used for home/camping self-defense (legally, from what I've read to date) if a firearm were unavailable.....but that would be a really, really rare occasion (blue-moon rare, I'd think).

Sure, there are jillions of other knives out there. I've been to more websites recently than I can shake a stick at - looking at all types of knives. I've also been to one blade forum site after another to see what others' experiences have been with different brands.

My thoughts on the Bowie: (definition for this discussion - blade 10+ inches)

If one somehow got into a knife fight (against another knife, tire iron, or any other device a bad guy could use against an "unarmed" civilian).....a longer blade would:

A) frighten an opponent into retreating (best case scenario)

B) intimidate an opponent - providing a psychological advantage should the encounter progress any further

C) provide those extra couple inches needed to hopefully strike the attacker first....which would hopefully result in that person's quick retreat (best case), or disable/kill said opponent (worst-case scenario - legal system wise).

I don't use knives for anything more than cutting my steak or opening a box - both tasks easily mastered with a steak knife or my Leatherman tool. I don't plan on ever chopping wood, prying things open, or doing anything else "non-cutting" with said blade......so indestructibility is not a prerequisite.

There is a certain mystique attached to the Bowie, so I do think it'd make a nice addition to my very small collection (my imported Khukri is okay - but too heavy/unbalanced for a knife fight - IMO).

Having said all this, I have no intention on purchasing an expensive blade right out of the gate. $1,200.00 for a hand-made Bagwell Bowie? Not in this lifetime! LOL Even $300/$400+ still seems like "collector shelf" pricing (I've got too much money in other hobbies/projects right now). On the other hand, a "cheap" blade wouldn't really be anything special either.

Also, as many "tactical/combat" knives are available in the 7"- 9" range, I feel an 11" blade would be perfect to out-range an attacker (read: Ontario Bagwell - Hell's Belle, available from $185-$300 depending on where you're looking).

I'm leaning heavily towards the Ontario Bagwell Bowie at this time.

So, what do you guys think about the "big, bad Bowie"

-WP

[STGThndr]

Have you checked out the Cold Steel Laredo Bowie? I dont have one but a close friend does... he "customised" it a bit and used it as a concealed carry. One night on his way home from work he was accosted by 3 idiots with a baseball bat- for no discernable reason other than he was there... The punks were wanna be gang members who learned a lesson that night and were lucky enuff to survive. True story from Colorado.
He has used a variety of knives over the years and has a lot of experience. His opinion, for what its worth second-hand, is that the Laredo is light, quick and good sharp steel.
Personally i use the khukri over the bowie if my intent is to kill or maim another human being. Small bowies are for general purpose use, the khuk for general purpose dismemberment. IMO.

[WarriorPoet]

STGThndr,

The Laredo is nice and can be had for a good price to boot (again, I did a bit of research to see what was out there - the $400ish MSRP was a heart-stopper till I shopped around). It'd be nice with curled hand guards.

So, how about the diff between the Ontario Bagwell curled guards (apparently for catching your opponent's blade) and the "plain" guards on the Laredo? Are the curled guards practical? A plus/minus/no diff?



The Laredo seems to use a high quality metal in its manufacture. If anyone could compare the Cold Steel steel vs the Ontario Bagwell metal (440A stainless), I'd appreciate it as I really know squat about metallurgy.

Thanks.

-WP

[firefuzz]

I like Bowie style blades and own several, but the traditional Bowie is not my choice for a fighting knife. My favorite fighter's a BlackJack copy of a Randell No. 1 in one hand and a Cold Steel LTC kukri in the other.

About the kukri in a knife fight....you don't see many people lined up to fight the Nepalese(?) Gurkas in a knife fighting contest very often and I doubt any one would ever do it twice. The kukri is their primary knife for anything. Hard to beat for taking off limbs, tree or human.

Just my $.02

[STGThndr]

If anyone could compare the Cold Steel steel vs the Ontario Bagwell metal (440A stainless), I'd appreciate it as I really know squat about metallurgy.

I was surprised to say the least when I saw Bagwell touting stainless fighting knife blades. It was Bagwell who 25 years ago pioneered the concept of carbon steel blades over stainless because stainless is tough to sharpen, won't hold an edge long, and is difficult to bring to the "shaving sharp" edge one can get with a good high carbon steel. Not to mention, stainless is difficult for most knifemakers to forge, most all stainless blades are ground. Stainless can also be rather brittle and prone to snapping under stress, in my experience.
Lynn Thompson at Cold Steel acted on Bagwell's idea and came up with "Carbon-5" steel and made a bunch of Trailmasters and other knives of this delightful cutlery steel.... C-5 is an excellent steel, takes and holds a very sharp edge without a LOT of work compared to stainless... it will tarnish, but in practical use I have had no problem keeping my blades clean and unrusted, even after cutting bloody meat. C-5, at least as tempered by Cold Steel, seems to be very tough, in that in is not prone to breakeage, altho I have chipped edges at times- my fault for honing too fine and perhaps abusing (?) the blade.
The only stainless knife I have that is worth squat is my old Swiss Army, everything else is and has been high carbon since my first experiences with stainless Buck knives. Learned long ago not to have any weapon or tool I couldnt bet my life on in a pinch. Just my subjective opinions!

[hagar]

If you look around, you can still find the Puma Bowies for ess than $100. Great knives, I lusted after one when I was 20, and finally bought one 25 years later.

[TheJokker]

i've been considering a bagwell for some time now.

here is a discussion of the properties of stainless steel as it relates to sword construction. the physics of swords is more complex from knives but a stainless steel knife (or sword) can be constructed that will be as good as a carbon steel but it will be more difficult to design and manufacture. heat treating in particular needs to be applied precisely.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...tainless+steel

[Snakeshot]

I like Bowies.

My favorite is the old carbon steel Western W49.

[Arby]

If you are looking for a Bowie with a good historic pedigree, you might want to check out the Collins #18. It was issued early in WWII as a part of aircraft survival kits. The 2nd Raider Battalion (Carlson's Raiders) issued them also, and they were used on Guadalcanal and in later battles. They are tough as nails and take a fine edge (or at least the old ones do).

[MACV]

Two of my favorites are the SOG SEAL 2000, and the Benchmade Offsider Fecus 10520. Buck Nighthawks are decent knives too.

[cabofdoom]

Have used (abused?) a Western Bowie a time or two...owned mine for 20 years, sent it back to the factory to have the wood and brass tightened up, they put a new factory edge on it ( all free of charge) and hade a local leathersmith Steve Hotchkis (sp?) @ Onion River Cobbler...(shameless plug)
Make a new sheath. Duct tape on old sheath wore out

http://www.camillusknives.com/1mainframe.htm

Got mine for 20 bucks at a flea market


COD

[FTW2012]

Your best choice for a fighting blade is one that is between 3"-5"
Larger blade can actually be removed from your hand easier
And a dropped knife is a 50/50 chance it will be turned against you.
Personally the knife I keep in my pocket is only 3" with a spring assisted release
If you jam something like that in an opponent's eye, neck, throat, wrist or hand
chances are they will leave you well alone.
Its hard for them to keep attacking you when they are choking on their own blood

[J. Armstrong]

Many, many moons ago I bought a "Survival Bowie) from Bill Bagwell - quite a character !! This was before he was well known - I could never afford it at todays prices !!! Bill said a really good knife should feel like a magic wand in your hand ( understanding of course that it ISN'T magic and requires a great deal of skill to use properly ). It has a stag handle, when I saw the funy twist to it I laughed - then I picked it up ------WOW !!! Look out, Tinkerbelle
Bagwell prices having gone up a bit, I figured it was TOO good for " daily " use and I replaced it with a Trailmaster - a very, very fine and practical blade, but it sure don't have the same feel !!!

It's nice to talk about using a knife in self defense, but to be really competent requires mucho skill and even more practice. If your opponent is also armed with a knife and has any skill, the general consensus seems to be that you WILL get cut, and probably badly, the only question being who is last man standing. I don't believe for a minute I ( or for that matter, the vast majority of us ) are really competent with a knife vis-a-vis combat. Take a gun instead !!

It would seem that the Bowie is inherently a better choice as it can effectively be used both cut and thrust, whereas the kukri is pretty much limited to cutting. The reputation of the kukri, while certainly not to be disregarded, stems very substantially from the abilities of the users. The Ghurkas , as I understand it, were exceptionally practiced with the kukri and had a "blade warrior" mindset -
a winning combination for sure. Based solely upon reading historical and technical references, it seems that all things being equal, the point is considered to be more lethally effective in combat. For practical ( i.e. general purpose and survival ) needs, I think the Bowie is more useful. But if the kukri works for what you need, who's to argue ??

Anyone for fencing lessons I always wanted to try but figured I'd probably cut my winky off "Course, my regular head might work smarter without that interference

[FTW2012]

Originally posted by J. Armstrong
Anyone for fencing lessons I always wanted to try but figured I'd probably cut my winky off "Course, my regular head might work smarter without that interference

Fencing is for French fags
Try Kendo instead

[WarriorPoet]

So far all I've done is pick up two books on Bowie fighting by Dwight McLemore (very well illustrated) but obviously just touch the tip of the iceberg of possible moves/techniques. Due to other hobby expenditures, I'm having to put off a Bowie knife purchase at this time Maybe Christmas?

In the meantime I'll be more than busy just practicing the footwork/techniques in these two books.

There was some ex-South African military/ops guy who used to teach all kinds of neat stuff at a local martial arts center, but he moved on. It would be nice to have a partner to practice with.


FTW2012 - Kendo IS fencing..........on steriods I presume you're a kenshi? I practiced for 6 years. I sure do miss it - I ran into a tendon issue and I'm not willing to go under the knife (no pun intended) to fix it. I've read that the surgery wouldn't necessarily let me go back to Kendo. Since I'm not in pain now, there's no point in doing it.

-WP

[motosapien]

I was intrigued by the movie Troy and that short sword known as a "Gladis". Sharp on both edges, it was the weapon of the gladiator. Curios that no one produces a replica.

I think I would opt for a Gurka in terms of utility. The large bowies are lovely weapons though and a must have for a knife enthusiast.

[J. Armstrong]

IIRC, Museum Replicas makes a Gladius. They constantly change their line, so it might not still be available. A similar "short Sword", the Falchion, is available in several styles, although most are single edged.

Does anyone have any experience with MRs products ??

[FTW2012]

Originally posted by WarriorPoet



FTW2012 - Kendo IS fencing..........on steriods I presume you're a kenshi?
I practiced for 6 years.

-WP

kenpai!

I'd take a katana over a rapier any day
ever try Iaido?

[jim west]

WarriorPoet Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works make some bowies on the practical side. They can also be had with traditional fittings. The price has gone up by about fifty bucks since I last looked, but they are still in the affordable range. I personally dont own one but I havent heard anything bad about them.

http://www.mineralmountain.com/knives.htm
Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works Custom Knives

J. Armstrong heres a link to reviews of some of Museum Replicas product as well as many others.

http://www.myarmoury.com/reviews.html
myArmoury.com: Hands-on Reviews

Jim

[Deltaten]

While I like blades as well as the next guy; and they *do* have a place in certain close-up 'n personal work:

Lessee......
2 1/2 lb, 14" long knife, or 2 lb., 4" long pistol?
Choices, choices!

Never bring a knife to a gunfight

Just my humble opinion, but;

At the time the Bowie was developed, the secondary (and sometimes primary!) weapon was the sword. Col Bowie *may* have had to use a broken sword, and serendipitiuosly found it a little more convenient for CQB than a std. officers/artillery type blade. Seen strictly as a fighting tool for general armed service at the time; probably couldn't be beat. I see it as the micro-AW or ultimate CCW of it's time.

As times progressed, the tools of war improved and firearms became the rule rather than the exception that they were. Being stuck with "one shot and done before they were on ya" smokepoles, and needing to resort to the short blade; fighters needed the short, heavy "sword" that was the Bowie. We are nop longer a blade-fighting society.

AS a historical accoutrement or collectable piece...fine!
As a RW, useable field knife or [current] fighting blade; there are better designs available.

Not trying to pee in yer Wheaties; just puttin' my oar in the water. I have had a Gerber MkII for years. It sits patiently and awaits the time that it will be used as intended. It only has ONE purpose and it ain't trimmin' yer nails, chopping firewood or skinning game

Respectfully,
Paul

[WarriorPoet]

FTW2012 - Yup, our club used to practice Iaido once a month. I don't know how frequently, if at all, they practice it now.

I didn't care for Iaido too much as the knee pivoting (with my weight on my pointy-ass knee caps) PLUS the slow up-and-downs just Killed my knees. The pain really took the fun out of it for me (yeah, I'm a wuss - LOL). Everyone enjoyed the standing-only kata for obvious reasons On top of all that, having to practice on carpeted surfaces added a nice rug burn effect as well - lol

I did enjoy some of the practical elements of Iaido - such as learning to draw and resheath a blade, as well as actual cutting motions. I guess that's why I'm interested in Bowies right now. The longer Bowies are somewhat like the short blade wakizashi (sp?) - in length. The best thing about having practiced Kendo (in relation to blade fighting) was learning the concepts of maai and timing.

BTW - in which state is your dojo?


Jim West - thanks for the info on Mineral Mountain blades. Nice blades!

-WP

[J. Armstrong]

jim west - thanks for the link - a fascinating subject, I'm going to enjoy lkearning more about swords and swordcraft. Appreciate the help

Delaten - Good points. For my personal taste, a prefer a blade a bit more versatile than the Mk II, a Randall 14 would most likely be what I'd grab. Having said that, I woulddn't give up my Mk II by any means ! Unfortunately, defensive knife work requires a great deal of oractice/experience, in my estimation. In the scheme of things I need to develop or hone my meager skills on, knife fighting is just not high enough on the priority list. I greatly enjoy reading the history and theory, but I'm not quite foolish enough to think that's a subsitute for experience !!

[FTW2012]

Originally posted by WarriorPoet
FTW2012 - Yup, our club used to practice Iaido once a month. I don't know how frequently, if at all, they practice it now.

I didn't care for Iaido too much as the knee pivoting (with my weight on my pointy-ass knee caps) PLUS the slow up-and-downs just Killed my knees. The pain really took the fun out of it for me (yeah, I'm a wuss - LOL). Everyone enjoyed the standing-only kata for obvious reasons On top of all that, having to practice on carpeted surfaces added a nice rug burn effect as well - lol

I did enjoy some of the practical elements of Iaido - such as learning to draw and resheath a blade, as well as actual cutting motions. I guess that's why I'm interested in Bowies right now. The longer Bowies are somewhat like the short blade wakizashi (sp?) - in length. The best thing about having practiced Kendo (in relation to blade fighting) was learning the concepts of maai and timing.

BTW - in which state is your dojo?


Jim West - thanks for the info on Mineral Mountain blades. Nice blades!

-WP

Carpets are bad to work on,
probably what caused your knee injury in the first place, bummer man.
We practiced on mats, the entire floor was one huge 40 x 40 mat
That was in NYC

I've been into martial arts since the early 70's
after seeing my first Bruce Lee movie that me and
my little cronies snuck into the theater to see!

Funny how the commission of an impure act introduced me to
the purity of Bushido, I guess that is the yin & yan of it

Now I live in ID, the first Aikido dojo I went into was not for me
they don't really practice defending skills,
they more or less dance with each other like granola homos on a play date.
They will be in for a big surprize if any of them is ever really attacked
There are not many legitimate instructors here. Mostly want to be's
who who teach at a YMCA intrductory level.
I've checked out 7 or 8 other places too, they are all lame
Kind of reminded me of that ex special forces guy in Karate kid.
We even have a guy in town who claims to be a "master of strangulation"
Yea, go choke your chicken pal!

So its just been me, a boken and the tree in my yard the last 5 years

[jim west]

WarriorPoet, J. Armstrong you are most welcome. Jim

[GUN SNOB]

Could it be were selling our selfs short. Shooting is all about shot placement, defencive/combat shooting is shot placement under extream stress. A knife increases your # of targets (mussle groups, extremitys.....)and allowes a larger margen of eror. I may be aiming for your hart but im cutting everything that gets in the way.

The everyday street punk is not a trained ninja assan and probably dose not posses the mind set or knolage we as internet commandos posses. Im not a bad ass but I scare real easy. Thay may start off more deturmend than me, Im betting that wont last long.

The problem with bringing a gun to a knife fight is that police stasts. show 73% (App.) of shots fired are misses. Evan if you block a strike from a knife you will probably be cut. The wound chanle from a knife thrust proper is typicly larger than a bullet hole. What thay lack in conetick energy thay make up for in tissue damage and bleed out. Since most shootings are with in 25 yards your not 'Out of range' of a knife atack if your still holstered.

Yes you might get cut in a knife fight, but you might get shot in a gun fight. Thats the nature of the game. If the other guy can be better with a knife why not assume thay could be better with a gun? (or just lucky)

For the record my knife for fighting is a remington 870 loaded with #8 bird shot. If the gunshot dont kill you the surgery probably will.

With that off my chest...back to the question;

As a untrained knife fighter the reach advantage of the Bowie and the chopping force of the Khukri are only part of the benofits. The larger blades allow for a defencive posture and are much more usefull for blocking and countering than a smaller blade.

I like the Gerber Aussie Bowie. Carried it for years now. A S.F bud carried it to to Pannama, Haiti and 2 trips to Africa for man tracking training. I told him he could break it if he could just dont lose it. So he defenetly used it.

I have 2 A&N Bowie blades (A&N Blades)on the bench, About $100ea. There 8 in+- and you have to fit handles and guardes. I think there kits are about $140-150 with gard, handle and pins and you can pick from a veriaty of styles. I dont know how thay will hold up to serios use but there 1/4 thick dendritic steel (?). If thay dont hold up thay will be the prittyest broken knifes I own. I talked to Don there and Ruger dose there castings for them. Thay have several styles including several fighters and a line of sheaths, tempered or anneled, tempering service and crio.

Id atach links but im still figguring the systom out and as you can tell from my typing I ain't a computer guy.

When I carry consealed or open I Keep a searaded folder in my weak side pocket in case of a gun snach situation. Use there hand to force the gun back in the holster and cut the rest of them lose. rember cut inside the wrist to loosen and out side to titen.

Thats bout all I know about knifes.

[Trumpet]

spend some time at www.usualsuspect.net and go nuts!

[RMLamey]

Interesting topic. I think we can all agree that a gun is nearly always better than a knife. That said, there is a time and a place for a knife, especially a big sharp Bowie, with a sharp clip. There are a few minimums I would demand in a "fighting" Bowie.

1- Blade at least 10"
2- Sharp clip
3- Proper steel/heat treat
4- Comfortable and very secure handle
5- Must be scarry sharp.
6- Must be thoroughly tested before carry (edge holding, cutting ability, flex etc.)

I would shy away from most air hardening steels and stick with Carbon steels that can be differentially heat treated. I would want either a full tang or hidden tang that is wide and runs close to handles butt end. I would want a substantial guard, but not necassarilly a "blade catcher" in its many variations.

There are a few, very few factory knives that would even be considerable. Ive re done many Cold Steel Trailmasters and Laredos. Both are decent but need alot of work to be up to speed in my view. Both need the edge to be reprofiled as they are far too thick from the factory.

The Laredo handle is very slick, especially when your hands are wet. The few ive done have been gone over with a rasp to add texture, solved the slick problem. The clip needs a bit of work to cut well on the back stroke, but once done its formidable.

The Trail Master has some of the same edge/clip issues. I have re handled about 6 of them, its amazing how much more you can put that blade to use when you have a proper handle. I carried a Trail Master during and weeks following Hurricane Katrina (didnt have one of my own knives ready). IT was stock except for re profling the edge and clip. It performed well, not great, but well. They seem a bit soft to hold up to severe prolonged use without attention.

I like the Hells Bell by Ontario, but the steel choice would not be my first. They can be quickly turned into formidable blades, but again from my view the steel choice is lacking.

Im not trying to tear down the above mentioned knives, just relaying my views on them. Hell ive got a Cold Steel TM about 6 feet from me as I type this. You can look around and pick them up very reasonably.

In the higher price ranges you can get into some nice custom work, that is meant to be used. There are a few, myself being one, makers out there that have made and continue to make alot of big Bowies for reasonable prices (reasonable in the Custom world).

Im not trying to solicit a sale, just trying to share, and if you have any questions please post them. Here are a few Bowies ive made in the recent past. Not exactly "strictly" fighting Bowies, these are made to be used in a wide variety of situations

[CZ-75a]

I like the bottom knife best - what does something like that run and what are the materials and construction used?

[wandering_ronin]

Nice blades, RMLamey! There is some good info here. I personally think that the grip of the Trailmaster is too short for me. I have a Bowie made by Black Cloud Knives that fits me well. The guard is integral with the full length tang and blade. The Kydex sheath leaves a little to be desired, though. The best Bowies I ever handled were made by Bill Bagwell, but they are way out of my reach pricewise. From my understanding, the use of the Bowie is definitely rooted in the western style of blade arts, which rely heavily on swordplay. In other words, "long range" work. This is opposed to the "short range" techniques found in the Eastern (perticularly Phillipino styles). The "back cut" is especially effective with the Bowie's design. Just my .02.

[slikrickabn]

I haven't had the chance to use the Trail Master, but have the Gambler and Fortress Ontario knives, as well as the Gerber Bowie. I like the concealability factor of the Gamblers and both it and the Fortress with a little work will keep a damn keen edge. My prefrence is still the Gerber. I had a leather sheath with button made several years ago, and that really helped the versitality of the knife. When I go walking on the farm, I usually grab the Gerber. That said, on my kit I carry a Blackjack copy of a #1 Randall that has been a very reliable knife. My 2 cents.

Rick

[gunplumber]

I'm also looking for a bowie, but this time with more of a historic flair - something that will "fit" the 1880s cowboy attair. Be of good quality, but not rediculously expensive guildmaster stuff.

I had a really nice one - a cross between a Randall #3 and an attack, but it was a lot of money to be carting around. Like a display grade Garand isn't comfortable banging through the bushes. Sold it and bought a k-bar and a bunch of gun stuff.

One of the more difficult decisions I am having to make is length.

90% of my knife work is handled by a folding box cutter.

8" is maybe a bit short for a bowie, but the ten and 12" blades are friggin huge. for that much weight, I could carry a hatchet .. . . (hmmm, thats an idea .. . . )

I also like a large grip. Some I've handled balanced well if you had tiny hands, but my pinky kept sliding off.

Mr Lamney, why do you recommend 10" as a minimum? A 10" blade limits where I can wear it with out having it catch on the saddle. 6" is definitely too short. I was thinking 8" to be about right.

Maybe the difference between a utility knife that may do chopping and a "fighting" knife?

[RMLamey]

'mornin all,

CZ- If i remember correctly the bottom Bowie, the one with the long clip, had about an 11" 'blade. Something like that with a 600 grit hand sanded finish, polished to show temperline, Desert Ironwood, Coca Bola, Curly Maple etc. handle would be around $550. Same knife in a working finish about $450.

Ron- you are right Bagwells designs are very nice.

gunplumber- the reasons for 10+" for a "FIGHTING" Bowie are reach, leaverage, and cutting "power". There is something that makes a 10+ blade cut like magic.... something happens when you get into that size range thats hard to explain..... you just have to get out and use a big blade next to a smaller 7-8" blade and the differences will be shocking.

That said, I would be comfortable carrying a 7 to 8" Bowie style blade, and your right they are much easier to carry. If chances were high that i was going to be forced to use the knife for defence, I would opt for the bigger (10+ blade) Bowie, no matter how much more difficult to carry.

Here is a 8"+/- blade Bowie, simple clean design, Forged 1084, Nickel Silver guard, Koa handle. In my view something like this would fit willll in the 1880's theme, an 8" blade would run in the 350-400 range pending finish etc.... FYI, I trade!

[gunplumber]

hey - I trade too!

I'd be looking for something with a stag handle probably - I just think its cool. The wood is pretty but looks too slick/slippery. I also prefer the hilt to be angled forward at least on the back side. Not the blade catching thing, but like the knives in the first 2 pics.

I really like your blade style. Never cared for the recurve on the false edge, and for a long time used a Navy Mk III with the recurve ground straight (needed the hard plastic sheath for jumping)

Also - although I'm sure the amount of work going into one of those beauties justifies the cost, I'm really looking for a working tool - not a high polish museum piece.

I guess I'd just have to handle them to see where the 10" exceeds the 8". I fortunately have never been called upon to stab someone - mostly a utility tool. And evern on that, my Leatherman Micra scissors and my folding boxcutter get used more.

[CZ-75a]

Originally posted by RMLamey
'mornin all,

CZ- If i remember correctly the bottom Bowie, the one with the long clip, had about an 11" 'blade. Something like that with a 600 grit hand sanded finish, polished to show temperline, Desert Ironwood, Coca Bola, Curly Maple etc. handle would be around $550. Same knife in a working finish about $450.

What is your choice of blade steel? Do you do your own forgings?

[CZ-75a]

http://www.imageseek.com/lamey/


You ought to put your website in your profile - it doesn't count as advertising to the best of my knowledge.

[RMLamey]

heck i thought my web site was in my sigline, guess i need to do that.
gumplumper- i have some nice stag, 2 pieces that would work well for a 7 to 8" blade.
CZ- Everything i make is hand forged, just me and a 4lb. hammer. My favorite steels to use are 1095 and W2. If i had a readily available supply of W2 I would use it exclusively, unfortunately thats not the case. SO, most of my blades are 1095 wich performs as good W2.

I kinda like to price things on an individual basis as everyone wants something a little different, usually some things added and some deleted etc....

I didnt realize there was this much interest on the files for knives, its very nice talking to new folks about what I love.

[CZ-75a]

Originally posted by RMLamey
heck i thought my web site was in my sigline, guess i need to do that.
gumplumper- i have some nice stag, 2 pieces that would work well for a 7 to 8" blade.
CZ- Everything i make is hand forged, just me and a 4lb. hammer. My favorite steels to use are 1095 and W2. If i had a readily available supply of W2 I would use it exclusively, unfortunately thats not the case. SO, most of my blades are 1095 wich performs as good W2.

I kinda like to price things on an individual basis as everyone wants something a little different, usually some things added and some deleted etc....

I didnt realize there was this much interest on the files for knives, its very nice talking to new folks about what I love.

Thank you. I can't promise you I'll be ordering anytime soon, but I will keep you in the back of my mind until I'm ready. I guess if I have to choose between buying guns that threaten the powers that be, such as FALs, AKs and ARs, or buy a knife between now and 2008 or so, I'm going to be buying guns. The model of the UK makes it perfectly clear which will be prohibited first.

[RMLamey]

Howdy, been buzy at the fire. Here is one I forged/ground/heat treated over the weekend.

To me, this is what I want in a "fighting" Bowie. Blade is 11-1/4" long, 1-3/4" wide, forged 5160, convex edge, sharp clip etc. This one is getting a hammer finished heat blued guard/ferul and Curly Maple handle.

The blade IS NOT fnished in the photo, have just roled the convex in-

[GunDog2006]

Well, I'll show you what I have. It is a Gerber Utility Bowie. It has a rubberized coffin-grip handle, and the blade width is a whopping 5/16". (That's a sixteenth inch larger than a quarter of an inch for you math geeks.. hehe)

I don't know if Gerber still makes tehese, but you might find one at a gun show in the used section, or something like that.

I paid $100 for mine, and it is worth every penny.

I use a Lanksy Deluxe knife sharpener kit to deal with the blade, and it is as sharp as a razor, in fact, I can shave the hair off my arm with this knife.

Here are some pictures:


One reason I like this knife, is that it fits my hand well, plus when held in this combat grip, the tip of the knife comes right to the tip of my elbow.



I placed a penny on the back of the blade for scale. 5/16" steel is a darn think blade. Not a lot of the Bowies out there are gonna have that wide of steel in the blade (thought some might...)



Another view... you can see the coffin-shaped handle pretty good in this pic. And... I just happened to pick up this puppy when I was in Fort Bragg checking out all the pawn shops. It originated at a gun store/pawn shop named "Jim's" and since my name is "Jim" that made the knife worth even more to me personally... this one has been engraved with "Jim's" on the side of the blade... (nice personal touch for me to find...)


One word about the sheath and how I've used or carried this knife. I like to go backpacking, and my previous pack was a military Medium A.L.I.C.E. pack. If you are familiar with that A.L.I.C.E. pack, there are three smaller pouches on the outside of the pack. Well, this knife fits perfectly down behind the attached pouch, and since the sheath has a way to attach it to webbing, it was a natural location for the blade while I was hiking.

I have used this knife for all kinds of chores, and with the Lansky kit to bring back the edge, it just keeps on giving and giving...

**********
Martial arts training would be the best place to learn how to fight with a knife. I have studied Filipino Stick Fighting called Arnis:
http://www.modernarnis.com/main.html

I have studied what they call "Modern Arnis" as taught by the late master Remy Presas. The reason I am bringing up stick fighting, is because the same techniques used for stick fighting can be applied in a knife fight. In fact, when we practiced, one of our hands was considered "sword hand" and the other "dagger hand."

Also mixed in with this style of stick fighting is a style of Chinese "seize and control" called "Chin Na." Chin Na is used to manipulate and lock the joints of an opponent. We learned how to implement Chin Na techniques with the sticks in our hands. In a knife fight, the manipulation would be the same, just done with a knife.

Chin Na can be a very brutal form of creating a rapid submission from your attacker, which, in the case of hand-to-hand combat, would be a good thing.

Also, Chin Na does not take a lot of strength to apply. But, you must study the techniques in order to realize this joint or that joint, when bent in a certain way, will cause an excruciating amount of pain to the opponent.

If you were serious about learning how to fight with a knife, you might follow the link above, and track down one of Remy Presas' schools. They are still in full swing, even though Remy passed away several years ago. The schools are now run by his family, and the next generation of fighters.

I wish you the best in your endeavor, and I hope you find the best knife for your needs.

I have made my choice, and I would grab my Gerber Utility Bowie for many jobs, including defending myself if need be.

Oh, the measyrements?

Blade - 9 1/2" long
Overall - 15" long

In a knife fight, 2 inches isn't gonna make any difference. What is going to make ALL the difference is skills and techniques that you have practicied. If someone draws a knife on you, chances are they might know how to use it. Even if your blade is three foot long, if you don't know what to do, it isn't going to matter when someone with skill comes at you.

I feel pretty confident most of the time with the 3-3/4" serrated blade of my Spyderco Endura.



The knife fits snugly folded inside the front pocket of my jeans, and I can open it with one hand.

And I would not want to be on the receiving end of a cut this serrated edge would put into somebody. Clothing will not stand in it's way, and if it were to make contact with soft skin, the doctor would have a definite problem sewing up the wound a serrated cut would make.

A strike to the meaty-side of theelbow, or behind the knee with this small blade is going to penetrate deep enough to disable the opponent very quickly, even if the person is wearing clothes. And... a strike to the inner thigh, bicep, or neck could cut a major artery, thus the opponent will bleed to death in about 4-5 minutes. Knives do more than stab ... they can slash even more deadly. Yes, a stab up into the chest cavity may be a target, hit a vital organ, and then twist, but there are other targets on the human body that can also effectively be used, and it wouldn't take a ten-inch blade to attack them.

Don't let size sway you as far as a fighting knife.

The knife isn't what does the fighting, it is the person weidling the knife that does the fighting. Best thing to do is to learn how to fight with a knife, then you are well armed, even with a steak knife in a restaurant...

Better yet, learn stick fighting, and learn from a teacher who knows how to show you the crossover between stick fighting and knife fighting. If you can be lucky enough to find one that can also show you Chin Na techniques to go with your knife and stick fighting, you will be well-equipped to do a good deal of hand-to-hand combat, even if the knife or stick is knocked out of your hand, your hands can still manipulate joints, break and separate ligaments, and dislocate bones of an attacker. Those are all skills invloved in Chin Na.

If you're a reader, here are three very good volumes on Chinese Chin Na:

Shaolin Chin Na by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/086...lance&n=283155

Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...859056?ie=UTF8

Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...859056?ie=UTF8

Dr. Yang also puts out a very good DVD series on the topic of China Na:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

Though each DVD set is $79.95 on amazon.com, I have seen all three DVDs sell for $75 on eBay recently.

****

Remy Resas also has many good DVD seminars on Arnis stick fighting:

http://www.modernarnis.com/onlinestore/videos.html

****

I guess it all depends on just how far you want to take your skills, or the idea of fighting with a Bowie knife. You might just want to buy one to sit on a shelf so that you know it is there in case you need to draw it to intimidate someone. You might even just want to buy one because it's big and bad looking, and it could possibly be used to do some real damage.

But if you really plan to use the thing, I would suggest getting some real training from a professional, who can give you the confidence you need if you ever do need to pull that big, scary thing on an attacker.

And I think, if you are trained in knife fighting, you'll figure out that you could fight just as well with a 3-1/2" Spyderco Endura... and you can find those for $40 used... and I've yet to find anything mine WON'T cut thru...

My 2-1/2 cents


JH
.

[GunDog2006]

Here's a Gerber Utility Bowie for sale on the web... the ad says it's been discontinued:

http://www.jaysknives.com/gerberknives.htm

It is the second one down from the top...

$179.95...

They were $100 brand new ten years ago...

Inflation, I guess...

*********************

12th one down here:

http://www.youwantit2.com/otherknives.html

Is the Gerber Utility Bowie with a stag-horn handle

They're asking $299 (ouch)

(doesn't have the same codura sheath mine has, though...)

(That page takes a while to load... lot's of pics..)

**********************

Best of luck finding the right Bowie for your hand...

JH
.

[RMLamey]

I like those Gerber Bowies, they fall inline with the Cold Steel TM. On the Gerber youve got to leave the edge a bit thick or it will take damage if used hard.

If you can find one in the $100 range, i would be all over it.

[WarriorPoet]

RMLamey,

Can't wait to see how that blade you're working on turns out! I really like the curvature on the blade. Might have to get you to craft one for me

What kills me is that the really nice Bowies....well.....I'd end up keeping them in a display case (esp. at $500+)!

Yet, the ones I wouldn't mind getting scratched are so darn cheap looking that I don't know how they'd hold up - not that I plan on getting in any knife fights....but you want to know that IF needed, it'd do the job without falling apart - lol

-WP

[slikrickabn]

JH

I totally agree on your evaluation of the Gerber Bowie. Have had one of these for years, and is a damn good knife that often gets overlooked on these discussions. I had a leather sheath made with a button ala the bagwell bowie sheaths. Really helps the versitality of the knife, especially for ease and concealability. Just wish the factory sheath had a stone pocket on it. Stick it inside your pants for concealed carry or strap to your ruck- this knife will handle both! My 2 cents

Rick

[dirtyrice]

i agree with jamhandy completely. first off dr. yang is THE person for chinese martial arts in north america if not the world. no bullshit there just real art. but yes if you want to truely know how to defend yourself seeking training is definetely a good idea. the best knife fighting ive seen was from some silat mubai guys. or silat people in general. ofcourse these are "muslim" martial arts. so if that scares you away then so be it. but from what ive seen they look very affective. lots of lung and groin attacks.

http://www.mubai.cc/silatmubai-introvid.WMV

the first time i saw it it didnt have any of that crap when the "what was" and then everything after that. i wouldnt bother watching that.

[RMLamey]

One of, if not the most important factors if you actually consider using a knife for self defense is being FAMILIAR with that knife. Use it daily, run through speed drills, cut with it, carry it, the blade should become a natural extension of your actions and reactions.

If your not willing to do this, at a minimum, leave the blade at home.