Why So Much Demand For the 4 Major Military Calibres

[411man]

It can NO Longer be ignored that a MAJOR increase in 7.62x39 FMJ, 7.62x51/308 FMJ, 5.45x39, and 5.56x45/.223 FMJ ammunition sales REMAINS in full swing.

WHY are so many purchasing such large amounts so often?

I know I have read and had said to me and it has been reported to me that many individuals feel an URGENT need to stock up for several reasons. Among those are the threat of Terror attacks inside CONUS ( Al Qaeda, Iran, MS-13, Mexican Drug gangs, whoever), rising prices, Political action in the not to distant future, etc. Yet another reason is that a number of people new to the SKS, AK, assualt rifle ownership are also driving up demand. I have had several people come to me concerned about immigration issues, terror attacks, as well as natural disasters wanting to get help choosing these types of weapons who NEVER thought about owning one before. The End of the Assualt Weapons Ban (AWB) seems to have played a part as well in driving demand.

No doubt other contributing factors exist as well.

I just do not see a quick end to the demand any time soon.

Anyone else got some insight to add?

[ftierson]

How can there be big increases in sales when you've already said, over and over, that there isn't any surplus ammo available?

Besides, perhaps the simple fact that most of the guns we shoot are chambered for these four cartridges might have something to do with why we're not buying much 8x56mmR Austrian ammo, do ya think? After all, sales of commercial guns often mirror military chamberings (since surplus ammo and components are almost always available for reasonable prices)...

Or, perhaps it's a government conspiracy to get us to stop buying other ammo. They realize that, if the demand falls, the ammo manufacturers will quit making it and we'll have guns that are unusable because of no ammo... Then, like Mexico and much of Europe, .gov just bans individual ownership of military caliber/cartridge weapons... Yup, I think that's it...

Forrest

[Sig220]

Originally posted by ftierson
How can there be big increases in sales when you've already said, over and over, that there isn't any surplus ammo available?

Besides, perhaps the simple fact that most of the guns we shoot are chambered for these four cartridges might have something to do with why we're not buying much 8x56mmR Austrian ammo, do ya think? After all, sales of commercial guns often mirror military chamberings (since surplus ammo and components are almost always available for reasonable prices)...

Or, perhaps it's a government conspiracy to get us to stop buying other ammo. They realize that, if the demand falls, the ammo manufacturers will quit making it and we'll have guns that are unusable because of no ammo... Then, like Mexico and much of Europe, .gov just bans individual ownership of military caliber/cartridge weapons... Yup, I think that's it...

Forrest

Forrest, do you think he has ANY idea how much ammo we used up in Raton??? Na, I won't tell him........he will think its a conspiracy to raise the price of ammo. WTF??? 411.

[ftierson]

Originally posted by Sig220
Forrest, do you think he has ANY idea how much ammo we used up in Raton??? Na, I won't tell him........he will think its a conspiracy to raise the price of ammo. WTF??? 411.

I don't know the answer to your question, E...

Perhaps 411man is a secret member of the ammo distributors guild, having been tasked with building hysteria and promoting a buying frenzy to drive up the price of ammo because so little (except in their cavernous warehouses waiting to be relased after appropraite increases in price are realized) is available...

Or perhaps not...



And smelling the burning powder, even the South African, at Raton was a lot of fun...

Forrest

And, by the way, I have no doubt that the UN people and others are working their little asses off and thinking their little evil thoughts as they do their best to destroy any ammo that might otherwise have found it's way here for us to enjoy...

[Kyrottimus]

I hate the U.N. immensly... I think I've mentioned this before.

But yeah, finding those 4 calibers in bulk amounts has become a bit tight lately, with prices rising.

I don't know exactly why, but I'm not worried.... ... yet.

[yovinny]

25 years ago, when Chinese 762x39 was $59. a case and sks's were $69.ea, at retail prices, I've seen entire truck loads sell out one case at a time in the course of a weekend from the local retail gun store.

You think buying pressure is higher at today's inflated prices ??

BTW, those $59. case's were 1200rds, or just under 5 cents a round.

[ftierson]

Originally posted by yovinny
25 years ago, when Chinese 762x39 was $59. a case and sks's were $69.ea, at retail prices, I've seen entire truck loads sell out one case at a time in the course of a weekend from the local retail gun store.

You think buying pressure is higher at today's inflated prices ??

BTW, those $59. case's were 1200rds, or just under 5 cents a round.

And 1440 round cases were widely available for $69...

Forrest

[Old Sarge]

I would guess that the hording of some of its not helping.

OS

[rochte]

You know, I think 411man has a point in this and his previous posts...

I mean, I've been looking for cases of .45-70 and - WTF??! - I can't find any! And purchasing by-the-box, the price is outrageous now!

I think it's the damned UN!

Anyone have a good lead on surplus cases of .45-70 or .30-40 Krag, let me know!

[411man]

I would easily believe that at Raton like Knob Creek much fun is had sending Millions of rounds down range. I am pleased such events are still allowed.

None the less my observations and question still stand and I appreciate the additional point of how vast some of the quantities are that are sold in a very short time.

Forrest, my point and observation has and continues to be that Military surplus Rifle ammo will soon, for a variety of reasons, become first VERY Expensive then Disappear. I have made NO predictions as to what month or year that will take place.

I would also observe that as long as Military suplus ammunition is cheaper than Reloading ( counting the value and availability of one's Time) it will continue to be the source of choice for shooter's needs.

I am now convinced that a major motivating force behind the increase in volume of sales lies in the lessons observed from the failure of government in the wake of the "Bitch Sisters" Rita and Katrina to provide the needed help, support, and return to normality for the populace as a whole.

Furthermore, the threats of Civil Disorder over the Immigration issue has without doubt made its contribution as well.

The UN's RevCon 2006 will also make its contribution to the shrinking availability as well.

Many postings on the W W W have left NO DOUBT that should the Democratic party gain control over one or both federal legislative houses and Hillary become president that the UN's efforts to END Small Arms and Munitions availability to the citizens of its member Nations WILL become a reality in the US.

As I said in my original post of this thread, there are a variety of reasons behind the rapid increase in quantities sold of these 4 Military Surplus Rifle calibres.

This is a situation which it appears will continue.

[Tuscan Raider]

Availability of surplus ammo is getting so bad, even Indian is getting hard to find. " Pssst. Hey man, got any Indian?" 411man, I was watching CBS news the other night, and the ammo is going downrange at enormous rates. The video reminded me of news clips from Vietnam of guys just spraying and praying. These MARINES were popping rounds everywhere. Not to be critical,though, I do believe you called for surplus to be dryed up by July 2006 in a thread. I have been watching the rifle company site, and every week someone has less ammo available. Sorry, but I to believe things are gonna get tight, kind of like watching gas and silver go up the last few months. Why are people buying up lots of ammo? Because people don't want to admit you were right, 411man,and see that it's not going to be around much longer. You can sit back and laugh now.

[ftierson]

Originally posted by Old Sarge
I would guess that the hording of some of its not helping.

'Hoarding' is such a nasty word that is mostly used by .gov when they want us to refrain from being self-sufficient and just be wards of the state...

I prefer to think of it (what they call hoarding) as accumulating against future need...



Forrest

[Windustsearch]

Shit

With all thats going on right now, even my liberal gun-hating mom wants to stock up on guns and ammo. Not kidding either.

[g5]

If the UN get its way there won't be any surplus available at all and none to be imported. Maybe that's contributing a bit to the shortage. It seems to me that the posts in this thread are right on.

[Nepag]

Not to be a doomsdayer, but . . . . FYIW, since there's a lot of boxer primed brass out there (OHV, TZ, TZZ, US made, plus others) you all might want to consider the possibility of reloading. Lots of components are still in plentiful supply -- powder, primers, projectiles and brass. Its relatively slow work, but at least it provides a source. Probably not as cheap as some of the older milsurplus, but a lot less expensive than commercial.

[kfranz]

and surplus 8mm is STILL 5 cents a round...

I do believe it may be time to search out another Hakim, or perhaps a 49.

[loneeagle308]

Pretty soon I'll be raiding the ammo locker on the boat or start reloading.

[Ricketts]

Costs of components is going to change REAL soon.

I get more for a 5 gallon pail of pick up 223 brass at the scrap yard than I do if I clean, sort and sell it in 1000 piece bags. China is buying up all the scrap brass they can--

[Ssarge]

Everyone laughs at 411man. Well I do think he has some legitimate points.
I have been into shooting seriouly since the early '80's. Before the Dole amendment came through, finding surplus, affordable ammo was damn difficult.
Shooting my AR15's, M1A's and other rifles was damn expensive on a very tight budget. Mags were very expensive, or were freebie pickups from Eglin. Most of the .308 was the crap from Brazil that would blow up your rifle or very expensive MAN or commercial.
The past 5 years or so have been the golden time of surplus ammo. There has never been a better selection of first rate surplus ammo at the same time as kits that actually had receivers available.
If 411 man is wrong, please point out just where this big mass of ammo is going to come from? Pretty much everyone has swithched to 5.56 from 7.62x51 and either sold off it's surplus or destroyed it. Sure there will be some coming in, but what of the quality? Also I just don't see the boat loads coming in anymore.
Hell, Sportsmans Guide just moved my 7.62x39 order back another month. You'd think the Russians could crank that shit out, they sure turned out billions of rounds of it during the cold war.
Me, I'm just glad I have bought ammo on a regular basis and stocked it back over the years, especially when I found a "deal".
Maybe 411man and I'm wrong. Maybe a boat will come in with tons of great, cheap .308, 5.56 and 7.62x39. Me, I'm not holding my breath.

[kfranz]

I don't think most folks laugh at 411man, they just kind of make fun of him and point out the errors of his thinking and the difficult time he has expressing himself clearly.

That being said, does it really matter why there is a current scarcity? If you knew the root causes, would it change your behavior?

Personally, I will continue to buy pretty much whatever cheap surplus is available. Sometimes it is in prefered calibers, other times it is not. I'll say it again, as it seems I have so very much recently, surplus 8mm is currently running at 5 cents a round with minimal shipping. Spend $500, and that becomes the shipped price. Of course, moving 10,000 rounds of 8mm from your front door to where ever you store it may incure additional cost in painkillers or chiropracter bills, or at least beer to celebrate.

All this talk reminds me, my UPS guy just started walking upright again. Time for another batch....

[ftierson]

Originally posted by kfranz
I don't think most folks laugh at 411man, they just kind of make fun of him and point out the errors of his thinking and the difficult time he has expressing himself clearly.

That being said, does it really matter why there is a current scarcity? If you knew the root causes, would it change your behavior?

Personally, I will continue to buy pretty much whatever cheap surplus is available. Sometimes it is in prefered calibers, other times it is not. I'll say it again, as it seems I have so very much recently, surplus 8mm is currently running at 5 cents a round with minimal shipping. Spend $500, and that becomes the shipped price. Of course, moving 10,000 rounds of 8mm from your front door to where ever you store it may incure additional cost in painkillers or chiropracter bills, or at least beer to celebrate.

All this talk reminds me, my UPS guy just started walking upright again. Time for another batch....

Exactly...

I couldn't have said it better...

Hmmm, that reminds me, my UPS guy has recovered enough too...



Forrest

[411man]

My objective has, IS, and will remain to help ALL of the Shooting community stay informed so we all can make decisions on how to stay ahead of the conditions which effect supply, availability, and price of small arms and ammunition.

With prices on commodities like copper, lead, etc. not to mention chemicals going sky high, component prices will start to go out of sight soon.

I am not going to laugh as what I have been told or seen coming happens. I am hoping to inform as many as I can so they won't get caught short or stuck paying outragious prices.

Thank you all for your informational replies, probing if sometimes critical questions, and expressions of doubt because they have motivated me to search ever deeper to make sure I collected as much evidence as possible to get as accurate a picture of the true situation as possible.

I get much comfort in knowing that so much small arms and munitions are in the hands of Patroitic Americans. In WW II Japanese Military leaders took note of the extent to which the American populous was armed and decided an invasion of the US was NOT practical. I can only hope our current enemies will see the wisdom in not attacking America's home turf for the same reasons.

I hope Billions more rounds are sold by the end of 2007.

[Old Sarge]

Hi All

Forrest said
['Hoarding' is such a nasty word that is mostly used by .gov when they want us to refrain from being self-sufficient and just be wards of the state...

I prefer to think of it (what they call hoarding) as accumulating against future need...]

Ok not hoarding (that was just easyer to use) But the prudent purchas of a nessacary matrial by good patriots of the USA

Seriously though. 411man has told a lot of truth. Many have run him down and called him lots of names. But! a lot of what he said is true or coming true. As for reloading. Its getting hard to find good brass at a fair price right now. I have been looking for some 308 brass and several places are either out of once fired or only have pulled down brass. The pull down is a bit more then I want to pay. But its looking like I may have no choise. 556mm brass seems to still be in good stock. But it could dry up soon.

SSarge I recall when you could only get Remington (or one of the other big name) 223. There was the brown box PMC at $5.00 a box of 20. And 7.62x39? Couldn't even think of it. There were just some loose collectors rounds and Lupa. I have harped for years. Learn to reload and get some supplys.


Old Sarge

[Ssarge]

Old Sarge, I remember when the very first AK's, Maadi's, were imported by Stoeger at $1200 a pop. And ammo for them was over $1.00 a round. Throw in mags that were practically non-existent. "Soldier of Fortune" magazine had a little side gig going bringing AK mags back from Africa for over $35 each.
The old "Shotgun News" had all sorts of junk, very few kits with no receivers. Not a lot of ammo, and it was expensive and usually junk. About the only AR receivers around were Olympic cast junk and Essential Arms and I think one other I can't place at this minute. Bushmaster was still Quality Parts and didn't even have a rifle or lower receiver, just parts.
Most gun shops carried some S&W revolvers, shotguns, hunting rifles and maybe some an AR15 if they were a more advanced shop.
Personally I have taken this little "dry" spell seriously. I feel for those who don't have a sufficient supply of quality ammo to stash so they can shoot the lower grade scrapings of the bottom of the barrel that looks like we will be seeing for at least a while. Now if we end up with a democratic congress this year, then a deomcratic president in '08 I hope you stocked up with plenty before November, 'cause that's probably your last chance to get good, quality inexpensive surplus. As someone said before, a rifle without ammo is just a really expensive and heavy stick.
BTW-I really, really hope I am full of shit on this one. I just wish someone could point me to the next big supply of high quality, inexpensive 5.56 and 7.62x51 surplus. I just don't see it on the horizion though.

[loneeagle308]

I think the thread title is self-explainatory and answers itself.

[Old Sarge]

SSarge
Your killing me man. The good old days. When you could go to a gunshow and have fifteen or so dealers in parts. You could go down the line and get most of the parts to build a gun up. Have it be all USGI. Guys that sold guns on a handshake and cash. Tables there were setup by collectors not shops. DCM M1s for $100. But only one in a life time and it took a year or longer to get. I bought my first Colt Gov mod for $350. I think its was Sendra that made the other receivers. They did a lot of contrat ones for other companys. I got one from B&H services marked Palameto Armory thats a sendra. Also a Rock Island one from Springfield Aromry.

I hope that your full of it on the ammo to. But its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. If not we start to reload again.

Keep your powder dry
Old Sarge

[Ssarge]

Originally posted by Old Sarge
SSarge

I hope that your full of it on the ammo to. But its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. If not we start to reload again.

Keep your powder dry
Old Sarge

Not an issue with me. My stash will probably outlast me, and it's stored in climate control.

[411man]

It matters NOT what reason one NEEDS Surplus ammo. What does matter is that like it or not Imported Military Surplus ammo WILL cease to be available in the near term. It may remain available for some weeks or months after it is cut-off or runs out (depending on the calibre and source) but if current events show us anything it is that once it becomes known that something will cease to be available the remaining supply usually disappears soon there after.

As for what year the last of any calibre stops being imported or ceases to be available in surplused stocks varies from one Nation to another and one calibre to another. Why wait till the last rounds are coming from the nation of Uga Booga instead of buying it now for lower prices?

Buy it now or be sorry latter, has and will remain the reality.

[BiGB808]

so...

if you were going to buy ammo today?


what kind and where?


.45 acp?

.308?

.223?

[STGThndr]

Why wait till the last rounds are coming from the nation of Uga Booga instead of buying it now for lower prices?

Uga Booga "gold" is some of the best shit around. Two tokes hey and ya don't NEED any ammo, ya know?

[411man]

That's a good one STG Thndr ! Thanks.