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Old October 04, 2005, 20:26   #1
mr fixit
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Combat load??

Not sure what to call it maybe combat load fits, maybe not. The question is this;
in making preps for 'whatever', what would be the "must have minimum" of stuff per weapon. Not what type, or which one is best/better.

For instance: Rifle, cleaning kit, 3 mags(loaded), 100rounds on strippers, bandolier.

Does that sound like enough, too much? how much of each do you/would you want?

I guess the senario I'm wondering about would be something where you are carrying what you 'need'. Maybe your scouting around your home/base and can go back for more, but have only what's on your back for immediate use.

And, for at least the time being, I'm asking only about weapons. Not concerned with food/shelter/first aid/radio or anyting else here. Just trying to keep it simple for now, onr thing at a time.

Over the last few years, I'v been accumulating rifles that I've wanted, but never really got all the other stuff that goes with 'em. Now, I'm trying to by the accutrements.

I'm posting this on a couple boards, to see what different answeres I get.
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Old October 04, 2005, 21:42   #2
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I'd say minimum 6 magazines per weapon, preferably more. If it's 7.62, it can get heavy pretty quickly. You can carry more 5.56. The Otis cleaning kits are small, and take up little room. That's it for close in work. Add more stuff for longer patrols.

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Old October 04, 2005, 21:44   #3
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a lot of people like to throw out different numbers , ask them if they have ever carried that much..
figure out what you are going to carry the stuff in l.b.e , vest .. ect .
load it up and see how it feels after a 5 mile hike .
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Old October 04, 2005, 22:03   #4
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From what I've read, in Vietnam each man carried 200 rounds of .223. Bump that up to .308, and, like mosbysmen said, your lugging an awful big assault load. THAT said, I have 10 mags in my BOB, that's 200 rounds, plus the spare parts /cleaning kit, etc. This is not counting my LC harness with canteens, knife, pistol and extra rounds. I haven't done the five-mile-mosey yet, humpin' all this crap, but I'm slowly workin' up to it. I also take my FAL when I make my evening rounds, no sling, carried in my hands...

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Old October 04, 2005, 22:11   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by mosbysmen
a lot of people like to throw out different numbers , ask them if they have ever carried that much..
figure out what you are going to carry the stuff in l.b.e , vest .. ect .
load it up and see how it feels after a 5 mile hike .
I carried 7 mags of 5.56, two USGI canteens, first aid kit, bayonet, flak jacket, steel pot, and M16 quite easily. Of course that was over 20 years ago, but the USGI LBE still works as well as it did then.

Each individual needs to figure out their own ability to carry equipment. If it's too heavy, hurts your neck/back/knees, lighten the load, or try something new. Walk and or run wearing the gear to get used to it. It helps to be in somewhat good cardio health.

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Old October 04, 2005, 23:00   #6
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Typically:
12+1 for a 5.56 caliber M4/M16 (390 rounds+20 tracers)
8+1 for a 7.62 caliber FAL/M14/G3 (180 rounds)
8+1 for a 7.62 Sov. caliber AK/AKM/AK74 (270 rounds)

Since I've changed to a plate carrier from an LBV, I've been forced to reduce my overall load to:
10+1 for the M4 (330 rounds+20 tracers)
6+1 for the FAL (140 rounds)
6+1 for the AK (210 rounds)

Your kit has a lot to do with how you set your fighting load. It's really kind of hard to get into what you're kit will consist of until you've settled on what you're looking for, what you want it to do, what type of situation you're preparing for etc... First place to start is decide if you want a vest, chest harness, LBE, or plate carrier, then start thinking about how much of what you want to carry.

I hope this helps.
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Old October 05, 2005, 00:53   #7
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I like to keep a spare 10 round mag for the 10/22 in my left cargo pocket when I'm expecting attacks on the perimeter by armadillos or stray dogs.
The combat has occasionally gotten pretty crazy, and when the shit hits the fan I'm always glad I have it.



Otherwise I crave the third world rubber-shoed commando mystique. A camera vest with 3 AK mags or a couple of socks secured to my belt with Alice hangers does me right.

Word to your moms.
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Old October 05, 2005, 09:42   #8
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If I'm trying to stay light (meaning no shoulder bag with the option to go and get it with extra supplies, ammo, mags, etc.) Then this is my chosen setup;

FAL with 1 20 rd mag
6 20rd mags in a chest rig
Pistol with 4 mags

This fully meets the objective of make and break contact when your by yourself.
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Old October 05, 2005, 09:55   #9
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There are too many variables for one pat answer. Deliberate ops require a different combat load than say an observation/intelligence role. Personally, I think 7 mags is minimum for the AR (210 rounds) and when I was a ninja warrior, I carried 13 mags. Part of the amount is based on your method of carrying. Using the old 3 mag ammo pouches, there is no reason to have a 3 mag pouch with less than three mags, and if you have three mags on one side and none on the other its unbalanced. so either 2x 3 mag pouches, or 4x 3 mag pouches, with one in the gun. If you are using a chest pouch, adjust accordingly. I have mixed feelings with a chest pouch. Its convenient, and easier in some positions but the straps chaffe more.

As to the fal, I carry 4 x 2 mag pouches and one in the gun for a total of 9.

But pack with one ration, poncho. duct tape, para cord, roll of wire, and all the other little odds and ends you can't be without. knife. compass, battle dressing, miniflashlight. 2 x canteens with one canteen cup.

Some people want a sidearm. Ok. in 14 years in the military, I never carried both an individual weapon and a sidearm and never felt undergunned. The only time I carried a .45 was when assigned a crew-served weapon like the M60, even when it was treated as an individual weapon.

With mags cheap and relatively light weight, I see no purpose in stripper clips and bandoleers. I have all my magazines loaded at all times. Loaded mags do not wear out quality springs.

10 fal mags fit nice in a .30 cal ammo can. So why have 10 mags and 200 rounds when you can have them loaded and in the can. - stores better than a cardboard box.

My quandry is the alice vest and my inability to choose between my FAL and AR> Makes ammo carriers tough. Right now I am going with the AR as my quick reaction, therefore the mags are ina chest pouch with the rifle. My FAL is the planned operations weapon and therefore my alice gear is set up for fal mags.

FAL with ALICE and M14 mag pouches.


and with chest pouch



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Old October 05, 2005, 10:41   #10
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Well since the only reason I can imagine, for me any way, to be trapesing around with an EBR would be to keep an eye on the hood in the absense of LE Im going with a chest rig. Im not going on any long range patrol just around the block so to speak. It would also be easy getting in and out of a 'hicle if you need to. Load up with some mags, small radio, small first aid kit, and a candy bar and your good to go.

I have one of these in OD that I bought a while ago from Major Surplus. I gave a review on the board here with pics in the review section I think.



It aint bad for the money. It certainly isnt uber mil spec tough but Id venture to say it would survive the walk around the block.

FfH

edit:See here links for pics dont work but the rest is there.
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Old October 05, 2005, 12:54   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by gunplumber
10 fal mags fit nice in a .30 cal ammo can. So why have 10 mags and 200 rounds when you can have them loaded and in the can. - stores better than a cardboard box
(Start Guinness Guys voice...) "BRILLIANT!!!" (resume Dr. X voice...) I'd never thought of that. Guess I'll be picking one up this weekend. That'll free up space in my geetchy-bag...BTW: The horse in the 2nd photo is one beautiful animal...(I don't know about the guy standing next to it...animal? Probably. Beautiful? Defintely not... ) The chest pouch is rather photogenic though...

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Old October 05, 2005, 13:18   #12
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My daughter took a long string of pictures a few years ago for my business cards. Does this chest pouch make me look fat? Well, in siluette, yes it does. So I switched from the chestpouch to the alice. Which doesn't wear well on horseback, especially the way I wear it slung low to clear my rucksack. And the horse just didn't fit well with the with the text.

So posing against my garage wall, and a little cut and paste . .. .


and this picture



became this graphic

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Old October 05, 2005, 14:41   #13
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I most certainly respect and appreciate tis info from those who have "been there, done that " - thanks, guys !
Seems to me if one feels the need to have a bando of ammo on clips, you ought to make a point of having at least one charger as well - the s clips ain't much use without it ?
Aluminum para mags weigh about half what the steel ones go, but I often wonder about the durability. Normally I only use steel ones to avoid wearing the feed lips of my few paras, but there's also the "scratch and dent" factor. Any thoughts ?
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Old October 05, 2005, 15:04   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by J. Armstrong
Aluminum para mags weigh about half what the steel ones go, but I often wonder about the durability. Normally I only use steel ones to avoid wearing the feed lips of my few paras, but there's also the "scratch and dent" factor. Any thoughts ?
I've been using exclusively aluminum mags for almost 15 years. I started with 80 - 8 cans of 10. Went through over a 50 thousand rounds and then sold half of them after Y2K. I now use 40 mags for the range, and have gone through another 20-30K rounds if not more.

Damage - 2 mags with the tabs for the bolt hold opens broken off. Possibly due to a defective bolt hold open device.

I have not had a single failure on the magazines.

the aluminum doesn't bend well - it either cracks or it does't. The steel mags seem to me to dent easier and the weight is significant. (2# difference on 10 mags.)

So I will always use aluminum mags.
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Old October 05, 2005, 17:59   #15
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Take a look at the Russian Gunner's aprons. It holds 8 AK/FAL mags with pockets for sundries and a knife, and is just the ticket for the tinfoiler on the go. It has a plate pocket, too if you're into that sorta thing.
I got mine for $50, and while it's not as nice as pricier ninja-rigs I've bought over the years from Arktis and eagle, it's well worth the money and up to the task. The body is nylon with plasticized interiors with LOUD velcro on the pouches, but it's secure as all hell. The shoulder straps are wide and sturdy with oldschool "slip-in" stype plastic buckles, no fastex here, mister.
Overall, I give it a 6 out of 10, with kudos for its spartan design, light weight, and value.
I think www.redsoldier.com still has them. If not, Tantal (whatever his real name is in Texas) is well known about the community for having all kinds of Russian gear at good prices and his customer service is top notch.
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Old October 05, 2005, 18:21   #16
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mosbysmen I run 3.3 miles or hills most mornings with a full LBV 8 FAL mags, pistol and two spare pistol mags, water etc., and a three day patrol pack with 200 rounds and various sundry items in it total weight around 75 lbs. Its a work out. Funny thing is I live in the suburbs just outside of Portland Oregon and no one seems to take any notice at all other than to ask how much weight I'm packing in my rig.

8 + 1 works for me but I did do it a few times with 18 mags, two SAW pouches with 5 each, 4 30 round mags in my double - double pouch and 4 more 20 rounders in a double and a double single. Made me feel my oats. I would have to have a FA to make it worth doing on a regular basis. But then I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

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Old October 05, 2005, 18:59   #17
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Re: Combat load??

Quote:
Originally posted by mr fixit
Not sure what to call it maybe combat load fits, maybe not. The question is this;
in making preps for 'whatever', what would be the "must have minimum" of stuff per weapon.

I guess the senario I'm wondering about would be something where you are carrying what you 'need'. Maybe your scouting around your home/base and can go back for more, but have only what's on your back for immediate use.
IMHO, you really need to know what might happen before you can answer your question.

Example: You live or work in an urban area and want to have what you'd need to get home. In this case I would carry (in the trunk) the type of combat loads described above.

But, you live or work in a very rural area where you're unlikely to encounter the dreaded Spikey Haired, Cannibalistic, Welfare Mutants so you don't need much more than a 22lr pistol and take down rifle with a couple boxes of shells.

Remember, your objective is just to get to your home/hide/bunker/compound and undetected is best. You don't need to secure an objective.

If you encounter an unavoidable conflict in this country that requires the expenditure of more than 100 rounds of ammo, you're probably not going to make it anyway.

Just my opinion and it is worth exactly what I charged for it.
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Old October 05, 2005, 19:21   #18
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Great responses!
Let me clarify now that i've had time to think about it too....

Right now, life is good (for the most part). we have jobs, we can go to the store and buy just about anything we want. We have electricity and city water just waiting to be used. We can buy trinkets and faubles. Now is the time to think about when things go bad.

let's speak hypothetically; Say I wanted to buy an FAL, or an Ar or an M1a, or even SKS. Those are all decent weapons, some better than others for some things, but all 'useable'. But buying a weapon alone really has not improved my situation in regard to preparing for "bad times". So, in order to have a useable weapon, I would also need ammo, mags/strippers, and something to carry it all in/on.

So, before I spend money an a second weapon, it would make sense to buy all the accutrements I need for the first. Then if the SHTF, I have a useable weapon system.

Along those lines, not knowing what might happen, what would you have on hand, just in case, to use your self, and to possibly pass out to family/close friends. And realize that 100 mags and 20K of ammo per weapon is out.
What would be the minimum equipment load you must have before spending money on an additional weapon?
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Old October 05, 2005, 19:38   #19
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Quote:
Remember, your objective is just to get to your home/hide/bunker/compound and undetected is best. You don't need to secure an objective.
Can you say that with absolute 100% certainty?

How do you know you won't be ambushed for your supplies?
Roadblocked?
Bushwhacked at your home/hide/bunker/compound?

There are FAR to many variables to rely on a breakdown rifle and a .22 caliber pistol. A centerfire rifle of common military caliber (5.56, 5.45, 7.62S, 7.62N, etc) and a pistol of service caliber is the very minimum to show that you actually take your life seriously.

One can move "undetected" and still be attacked - especially depending on the duration of time spent riding "Shank's Mare". It's more a matter of population and desperation than one's skill in getting from A to B without being noticed by Grandma Ethel.
Detected is when a dog barks. Worry about staying alive, because you WILL be detected.
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Old October 05, 2005, 22:01   #20
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I basically set up senario bags...

All of them include either a chest rig for smaller problems or a full out patrol setup for bigger problems with full combat loads.

It works like this:

Going on a long daytrip.... grab one scenario bag

Friend needs help patroling property along Mexican Border... grab two

A couple of scenarios that are worse... grab three or four

A looming mushroom cloud over Phoenix... grab all the bags, three footlockers, and empty the safe!

Then... there's a trailer... but that's for a different thread... lol!
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Old October 05, 2005, 22:48   #21
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>>>>Since I've changed to a plate carrier from an LBV, I've been forced to reduce my overall load to:
10+1 for the M4 (330 rounds+20 tracers)
6+1 for the FAL (140 rounds)
6+1 for the AK (210 rounds)<<<<<<

damn dude......you hump all that shit AND 3 long guns?...you da man! I`d need a friggin humvee to carry all that.


I keep an AMT Hardballer w/3 mags full of Golden Sabre, and a CAR-15A1 w/4 30rd mags of USGI 55gr ball in the Jeep along with the GMHB. Spent all my service time with these type weapons and it`s what I feel comfortable with. The FALs are in the vault at home, where I plan to return to. `Bout 15-20mi is all I expect to have to go if SHTF. I live in a relatively rural part of the country, and about all I have to worry about are hordes of 60-90yr old retired yankees trying to steal my stash
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Old October 06, 2005, 07:29   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by mr fixit
Great responses!
Let me clarify now that i've had time to think about it too....

(Snip...)

What would be the minimum equipment load you must have before spending money on an additional weapon?

I try to do things in a methodical way, and prioritize in terms of expense and "potential legal complications."

Currently, full-capacity magazines are easy to obtain for the weapons that have been mentioned here, and prices are good for most of them. Never been better, for some.

They're also, after 10 years of lame BS, once again unrestricted at the Federal level. So even if you live in an unfree state, they can be obtained one way or another. But there is a chance---not a great one at this time, but that could change after the next election---that there will be another stupid law passed that will prohibit their purchase.

So buying "enough" magazines now seems a wise idea.

How many is "enough"? I would say at least a "basic load" worth for each rifle, to be placed in storage after function testing, plus a few for range/training use.

For an AR, that means 7 for a "basic load" (1 in the rifle, 6 in two 3-magazine pouches or a chest carrier) plus another 3 or 4 for range use. Say 12, just to be sure. Used magazines can be had cheaply, but there's a good chance they've been beat on by some 19 year old soldier who didn't care too much about what happened to them. OK for range use, but for the "basic load" I would start with new-in-wrapper US GI magazines. They can be found for around $10 these days.

For an FAL or HK91 I would consider 9 to be a "basic load" (1 in rifle, 8 in four 2-magazine pouches) plus the 3 or 4 for range use. Gunplumber's ammo can idea is a good one; I'm partial to the HK91 and 8 of its magazines will fit in the same can. With an FAL this is about ideal: pack a can with 9 magazines and a small cleaning kit. So, again, about a dozen magazines as the minimum. New-in-wrapper magazines can be found for these rifles for between $5-$10; used ones for as little as $2.

Ammunition is the next critical issue. There isn't an organized effort to ban it, at least not to the extent that there is to ban "assault weapons" and magzines, but it faces at least some threat of restriction and bans. Restrictions on imports of surplus or military-style ammunition are only an Executive Order away. Without ammunition your rifle is useless, so you need at least some on hand.

At minimum, you want at least enough for your "basic load." I would recommend at least a case, per rifle, as your "war reserve," and if at all possible more.. Buying in bulk is the only way to go, and it can't be just a coincidence that there's usually a better price when you buy a 1000 round case... Plus many countries' surplus ammunition is packed for long-term storage, in sealed cans, soldered tins or PVC bags. The problem is finding good quality ammunition, that has been properly stored, at a reasonable price.

What's available changes rapidly. A few years ago Portuguese 7.62mm NATO could be found for under $125/1k delivered; then there was Australian at a good price, and it seems to have dried up... And then there's crap like the Indian stuff, to be avoided at any price. Similar issues with 5.56mm. And there's always domestic GI-like ball, usually at a much higher price, but newer and of a known quality.

Ammunition deals come and go quickly, so the best plan is to be an educated consumer and have enough funds on hand to jump if something good comes along. Watch the sales flyers and websites for the big dealers to see what's available, keep an eye on the ammunition board here and on other sites to see how good the stuff actually is, and when good ammunition at a good price appears, don't want too long before buying as much as you can. There's always a way to get rid of it, after all.

Then there's all the little bits and pieces... Mostly cheap enough that there's no real need to put off purchase, but well enough off the radar that you don't need to worry about bans anytime soon. I would suggest, as the minimum for each rifle, a sling, cleaning kit and muzzle cap.

The sling doesn't need to be an uber-tactical one, just a simple strap ($3 US GI black nylon "silent sling" will do) to keep the rifle in place if you need to use both hands for something. You can always upgrade to a 3-point or such if you feel the need.

For the cleaning kit, some folks like the ones made by Otis with a flexible "rod," others prefer to use GI take-down rods. I would recommend, in either case, that you have both an "at-home" and a "field" cleaning kit: the "at-home" kit is the one you use routinely, with a good commercial one-piece rod to prevent bore damage, and the "field" kit with _new_ rod, _new_ bore and chamber brushes, _new_ cleaning toothbrush and so forth, with a _full_ bottle of oil, jar of grease, etc, package of patches, etc, all inspected and then packed away with the "basic load" magazines and ammunition, so you're not tempted to rob it when the "at-home" supplies run low.

A $0.25 plastic muzzle cap (the US GI one will fit most rifles that have the NATO standard 22mm flash suppressor/grenade launcher) is a very good idea. When you're soaking wet, scared and sleep-deprived, stumbling around in the dark, it is very easy to end up with a muzzle packed full of mud. Not good even if you notice it in time. Stow the cap in the can with the "basic load" and cleaning kit.
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Old October 06, 2005, 08:45   #23
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Basic load for AR15 = three bandoliers x 140 rds. = 420 rds. + six 30 rd. mags or 12 20 rd. mags (in mag pouches) and canteens and three MREs, poncho, hammock, and mosquito netting, and Glock 19 (two 15 rd. mags and two 30 rd. mags).

I have four FALs, M1A, and SR25, and won't consider the .308; it's the CAR15 when it's time to grab 'n go.
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Old October 06, 2005, 09:29   #24
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the last couple of years in iraq, i wear a MAV1, i have 5 pouches (3 mags ea) and a pistol holster on the MAV1. +1 mag in the M4. you cant always make it back to where you have your stash in a timely manner. i also had a bigger camelback system which held vs-17 panels, strobes, frags, flashbangs, otis cleaning kit, knife/multi-tool, snacks, a tube with, front sight post, firing pin, asst springs and FCG.
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Old October 06, 2005, 09:42   #25
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Originally posted by Ronin556


Can you say that with absolute 100% certainty?

Of course not.
That was just one scenario. Each person has to determine which threats they're likely to encounter and plan accordingly.
Most of us can't always be equipped for all threats; you can't carry that much gear around without getting pulled over.

Now he has clarified (somewhat) his primary need which is very different that the question I thought I was responding to.
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Old October 06, 2005, 09:50   #26
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Originally posted by mr fixit
Great responses!
Let me clarify now that i've had time to think about it too....

Say I wanted to buy an FAL, or an Ar or an M1a, or even SKS. Those are all decent weapons, some better than others for some things, but all 'useable'. But buying a weapon alone really has not improved my situation in regard to preparing for "bad times". So, in order to have a useable weapon, I would also need ammo, mags/strippers, and something to carry it all in/on.

So, before I spend money an a second weapon, it would make sense to buy all the accutrements I need for the first. What would be the minimum equipment load you must have before spending money on an additional weapon?
Again, IMHO, this comes down to your situation.
For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds.

This doesn't mean I stop there. It's just what I like to have as a minimum per platform.
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Old October 06, 2005, 10:57   #27
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I have a number of cheap surplus "fun" guns - SKS, Nagant, K98, etc.

Afdter reading this thread, I have decided to make a SHTF pack for each gun in my collection. Probably 100 rounds of ammo, sling, pull through cleaner. That way they can be handed out to neighbors. I already have the stuff, its just a matter of grouping them with each gun .

While grandpa with a K98 may not be too macho . . .. .


Well it reminds me of a story. A friend's father was under his car doing some sort of repair on a lonely country road when a truckload of hoodlums started to threaten him.

He pulled out a ruger Mk 1 and advised them to leave.

One commented that it was "just a twenty-two"

"Yep", he replied," its just a twenty two"


The hoodlums left.

I keep a .22 for survival hunting. Shooting a rabit with a .308 doens't leave much to eat.
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Old October 06, 2005, 11:13   #28
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>>>>Since I've changed to a plate carrier from an LBV, I've been forced to reduce my overall load to:
10+1 for the M4 (330 rounds+20 tracers)
6+1 for the FAL (140 rounds)
6+1 for the AK (210 rounds)<<<<<<

damn dude......you hump all that shit AND 3 long guns?...you da man! I`d need a friggin humvee to carry all that.
HELLLLLLL NO!
For Christsake, you'd literally have to be a human wheelbarrow. Or not going very far

That's EACH SETUP!
IE, if I'm carrying my FAL, I'll carry 6+1, or if I'm carrying my M4, I'll take 10+1.
The only "second" gun I carry is my 1911.

Sorry I didn't clarify that so well.
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Old October 06, 2005, 11:50   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by gunplumber

Afdter reading this thread, I have decided to make a SHTF pack for each gun in my collection. Probably 100 rounds of ammo, sling, pull through cleaner. That way they can be handed out to neighbors. I already have the stuff, its just a matter of grouping them with each gun .
This is really getting close to what I'm talking about.

And now that I think more, What would be the different needs for your primary/personal weapon, versus those you have to hand out to family/friends?

Quote:
The Other Chris
[B]Again, IMHO, this comes down to your situation. For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds. [B]
So if you have 5 FALs, you want/have 50 mags, and 5k of ammo?
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Old October 06, 2005, 12:24   #30
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Originally posted by gunplumber


Afdter reading this thread, I have decided to make a SHTF pack for each gun in my collection. Probably 100 rounds of ammo, sling, pull through cleaner. That way they can be handed out to neighbors. I already have the stuff, its just a matter of grouping them with each gun .

Why would you want to arm those who lack the forethought to arm themselves?

The gene pool has been corrupted enough. Allow natural selection to takes it's course.
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Old October 06, 2005, 12:35   #31
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Why would you want to arm those who lack the forethought to arm themselves?
good question and one that I have considered.

Its motivated by self-interest.

I simply cannot keep watch for 24/7.

So I am better off arming my neighbors for community defense? Or trying to stay on guard 24/7 myself?

Or might my neighbors decide that the rifle I gave them is a means of accessing my food supply?

fortunately, my neighbors are probably well enough armed already, although mostly handguns and shotguns.

We are already tied together (the 8 families) by a shared well and electric supply.

One mother was a former Airforce Security police. The other retired airforce.

Another I've never seen without a 1911 on his hip.

The other aformer cop.

And another is absentee (winter home)

Another a former rancher and hunter (small game)

and the other a Morman with an AR and a FAL.

Its a fine line.

Heck, with two full auto RPDs and two full auto 1919s, we can guard the neigborthood. But just because the lady was trained with an M16 and 1911 doesn't mean she owns one.
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Old October 06, 2005, 12:47   #32
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Originally posted by Temp


Why would you want to arm those who lack the forethought to arm themselves?

The gene pool has been corrupted enough. Allow natural selection to takes it's course.
While I see your point I have good neighbors with military backgrounds who (I assume as they have never expressed a big interest in firearms to me even though they know Im a gun guy) havent prepared to the extent that some of us have to deal with situations like we've been throwing around here.

These folks are good people and we look after each others stuff when someone goes out of town etc. I cant realy bring myself to shove them out of the life boat per say just because they didnt invest in a hobby such as ours and have the foresight to get into the mindset of planning for the worst of times.

That being said having a hand-off kit/bag to go with some of my replaceable $100 C&R guns might not be a bad idea. Might be a good use of some 30 cal ammo cans.

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Old October 06, 2005, 13:12   #33
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The street that I live on is pretty much a liberal enclave.

Being one of the few old country boys who inhabit the place, I was approached by a neighbor to help her with a pigeon problem.,... which was no problem. I got out my $30 Chinese pellet rifle and made short work of a few dozen of them.

One day while doing my little urban hunting routine, one of my neighbors walked by,... a middle aged man. He asks, "That a pellet gun?",.. I say, "Yeah,... trying to get rid of a few of these nasty pigeons.",.. Then I ask, "You been shooting them also?"

He keeps walking,.. says, "No,... no need for a gun at my house."

I just smiled and asked, "What you charge for a look in your crystal ball?"

The stupid asshole ain't gettin' nuthin' from me,... not even a baseball bat.
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Old October 06, 2005, 16:38   #34
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For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds.

This doesn't mean I stop there. It's just what I like to have as a minimum per platform.
That is the same gameplan I have...I'm WAY short on .308, chipping away week by week.

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Old October 06, 2005, 17:30   #35
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheOtherChris

For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds.


Quote:
Originally posted by mr fixit

So if you have 5 FALs, you want/have 50 mags, and 5k of ammo?
Multiple examples of the same firearm is different for me.
The first gets 10 mags. Subsequent rifles only get 5 each.

As for ammo, I like to have at least a 1000 rounds of each rifle caliber that I own. Not 1000 for each rifle. If I have 2 FALs, 2 CETMEs and a 308 bolt gun, I like to have at least 1000 rounds of 308.

My 'per rifle' requirements are very arbitrary and just what I like to have for what I collect.
A TEOTWAKI situation is very different and I would want a standardized platform for all team members.
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Old October 07, 2005, 10:15   #36
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Originally posted by BlackCat
Take a look at the Russian Gunner's aprons. I .. . .I think www.redsoldier.com still has them. If not, Tantal (whatever his real name is in Texas) is well known about the community for having all kinds of Russian gear at good prices and his customer service is top notch.
Just saw this on sturm. Is it the same guy?

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/ge...cgi?read=39862
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Old October 10, 2005, 16:39   #37
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Hey, Mark

I bought a .30 cal. ammo can at the Charlotte funshow this weekend for 3 bucks. It is the perfect fit for 10 mags. It even has the correct # of rounds stenciled on the side. Thanks for the tip!

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Old October 10, 2005, 17:23   #38
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since the tenth mag is sometimes a tight squeeze, I use a thin piece of nylon webbing around the tenth mag to make a "handle" for pulling it out.

For range mags, I put the empties in upside down.

It also makes it easy to see if the mags are full as you can depress them one after the other while still in the can (and even top them off while still in the can.

For my GoToWar mags, I can only fit 9 because I have para cord taped on the bases (and yes, I tried mag-pulls and went back to the old fashioned way)
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Old October 11, 2005, 06:30   #39
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Originally posted by gunplumber
since the tenth mag is sometimes a tight squeeze, I use a thin piece of nylon webbing around the tenth mag to make a "handle" for pulling it out.

For my GoToWar mags, I can only fit 9 because I have para cord taped on the bases (and yes, I tried mag-pulls and went back to the old fashioned way)
Another good tip I didin't know... What is the purpose of para cord taped on the bases? Where exactly does it go? Does it help with magazine extraction?Please enlighten!

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Old October 11, 2005, 08:00   #40
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Another good tip I didin't know... What is the purpose of para cord taped on the bases? Where exactly does it go? Does it help with magazine extraction?Please enlighten!

As ever,
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Poormans/grunts mag pull. Para cord looped in line with the mag over the bottom held in place on the sides by 100 mph tape.

You can take a plastic zip tie, cut off the ends/to size, and slide it inside of the para cord hollow center to make it stand up so to speak so its easier to grab.

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Old October 11, 2005, 08:13   #41
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it aids in extraction from the mag pouch.

Thanks for the zip tie idea -= that was a new one for me!

Its not just a poor man's Mag Pul, I think its superior. (anyone want to buy a box of mag pulls?) run the para cord in a loop upward on the mag and a layer of 1/2 thickness tape to hold it, then double the loop back down and retain with another layer of tape.

You can catch the empty mag on your pinkey when you eject it, while holding a fresh one in your hand.

You can snap the empties onto a carabiner - putting empties back into a mag pouch can sometimes result in an embarrassing withrawal of an empty mag.
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Old October 11, 2005, 09:04   #42
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The taped portion of the "poormans mag pull" is also a convienent place to number your mags with a sharpie for identification. If you have a potential mag related failure you want to be able to weed it out and investigate the problem later.

They all start to look alike when you get home and look in your bag and try to find the one that gave you trouble.

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Old October 11, 2005, 12:35   #43
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You can catch the empty mag on your pinkey when you eject it, while holding a fresh one in your hand.

You can snap the empties onto a carabiner - putting empties back into a mag pouch can sometimes result in an embarrassing withrawal of an empty mag.
A better solution is a magazine dump pouch.

Have you ever tried the carabiner method while trying to MSC (Manuever, shot communicate)?

You're going to be rattling and banging and have magazines flopping all over gods creation.
If that was mainly a problem with empty magazines, try it after performing a tactical reload - when you're magazine is partially full.

Those mags are going to be smackin' your nuts, and the result is pain.
It's a hell of a lot better investment to get a dump pouch, and work to and from that.

It can and does also double as a "catch all" when you're not actually battling undead hordes of mutant bikers from mars.

Not sure if anyone cares, but I've also found that you get a better and more "positive" grip from mag pulls made from tubes, as seen below:
(Thanks to "the Combat Triad" for the picture)


The "loop on the pinky" method is fine when you're training in Fort Livingroom, but when you've got gloves on, and things are hectic, it can be pretty beneficial to not have to worry about snagging your finger on the loop. This design also makes it easier to extract your magazines from their pouches - in my opinion.

This is all very subjective, and opinion heavy - so use what works for you.
Just some thoughts.
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Old October 11, 2005, 13:22   #44
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A better solution is a magazine dump pouch.

Sure - if you are traveling so lightly that you have room for an empty pouch. Rarely did I exit a C130 with less than 85 pounds of weapons and equipment, plus parachute harness and reserve.

Have you ever tried the carabiner method while trying to MSC (Manuever, shot communicate)?

Yes, in fact I have. 14 years in the Army, much of it in special operations.

You're going to be rattling and banging and have magazines flopping all over gods creation..

On need not practice noise and light discipline after the first round goes down range.

Cargo pockets work too, if they aren't full of equipment. I've also tucked them inside my jacket, but thats hard to do when wearing Ranger Body Armor.


Those mags are going to be smackin' your nuts, and the result is pain.


I suppose you could find a place to put a carabiner where that would happen, but its not a place I would choose.

This isn't something you wear as a new fashion style - its a temporary measure because mags are not expendable items.

The "loop on the pinky" method is fine when you're training in Fort Livingroom, but when you've got gloves on, and things are hectic, it can be pretty beneficial to not have to worry about snagging your finger on the loop. This design also makes it easier to extract your magazines from their pouches - in my opinion.

While you are entitled to your opinion, if I recall correctly from your last post, you havn't begun your airforce training yet. While I respect a variety of techniques, I have more respect for opinions from others who actually HAVE used the techniques in infantry training.
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Old October 11, 2005, 13:41   #45
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While you are entitled to your opinion, if I recall correctly from your last post, you havn't begun your airforce training yet. While I respect a variety of techniques, I have more respect for opinions from others who actually HAVE used the techniques in infantry training.
Gunplumber, people can be whoever they want on the internet.
If you don't want to be receptive to new ideas that are improvements on the dated stuff you learned when you were "special forces", that's cool - LIKE I SAID - use what works for you. I'm not pushing my ideas on you, I'm just saying that in my opinion, the carabiner idea sucks and is outdated.

Regardless of where you place the spent magazines, they are going to flop and be awkward, so why not use a technique that completely eliminates that, and gives you the added luxury of extra carrying capacity?

Because I'm now going into the USAF does not mean I have no measureable training. I've trained with professionals in squad tactics, CQB and zero contact recon in several states over the last 5 years.
I've attended professional shooting schools, and I understand I'm not the worlds most qualified man, but I do have some knowledge on the subject of combat - and I highly doubt anyone here will be jumping out of a friggin' airplane come SHTF. Why you even brought that up is a mystery to me... perhaps to prove YOU are the worlds most qualified.

Last but not least, I did the equivilant of Army basic during Military Science and Leadership in college. I have a firm understanding of squad, platoon and infantry strategy and tactics - again, I'm not a "professional", I'm a student.

A magazine dump pouch takes up a negligable amount of space, and, as I stated before, can be used to house such goods as a gas mask, or equvilant sized objects should one be pressed for space. Once "on the ground", you can use it for whatever you want.

Look at these ideas as if someone else posted them. I'm sure you'll find that they are superior to the carabiner idea once you take your "dick shakin' contest" with me out of the equation.

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Old October 11, 2005, 14:39   #46
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[B] I'm not pushing my ideas on you, I'm just saying that in my opinion, the carabiner idea sucks and is outdated.

Thats fine, and your experince in the field is what assigns credibility (or lacvk thereof) to you "opinion".

Regardless of where you place the spent magazines, they are going to flop and be awkward, so why not use a technique that completely eliminates that, and gives you the added luxury of extra carrying capacity?

Because in the real world - not your ROTC fantasies, there is no "luxury" of carry one ounce of unnecessary weight.

Because I'm now going into the USAF does not mean I have no measureable training. . .. I did the equivilant of Army basic during Military Science and Leadership in college.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. The value you place on ROTC basic camp demonstrates how much you have left to learn . . . . Even if you had completed REAL army basic - and advanced infantry training, it is only a brief introduction.

A magazine dump pouch takes up a negligable amount of space, and, as I stated before, can be used to house such goods as a gas mask, or equvilant sized objects should one be pressed for space. Once "on the ground", you can use it for whatever you want.

Sure - lets pull that old M40 out of its specailly designed case and stick it in a random sack, so so that once "on the ground" we can stick it somewhere else and use the pouch for empty mags.

I see your knowledge of NBC is even more rudimentary . . .

where you gonna stick your 256 kit? or your 58s?

Look at these ideas as if someone else posted them. I'm sure you'll find that they are superior to the carabiner idea once you take your "dick shakin' contest" with me out of the equation.

While I have learned much on the net from other professionals, so far, your posts have been an exercise in displaying your ignorance. I'll go with what has worked for me in the real world.

You will learn more as you enter military service by keeping your mouth shut and your ears open - but something tells me you are already too smart to heed advice from anyone.
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Old October 11, 2005, 14:55   #47
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Because in the real world - not your ROTC fantasies, there is no "luxury" of carry one ounce of unnecessary weight.
Are you somehow implying that a magazine dump pouch is unecessary weight?

I'm not sure what passes for curtesy around here.
I've tried to be civil and decent.

At EVERY turn, you've taken it upon yourself to be as insulting as possible.
I don't know if presuming I live in a fantasy makes you feel better about who you are, but it's certainly untrue. I have a pretty realistic approach to this stuff, and I'm telling you - if you were half the man you claim to be,
first off, you wouldn't be such an arrogent prick,

secondly, you would probably already understand the benefits of a dump pouch in any sort of direct/dynamic action, and;

thirdly, you'd do more than sit around trying to insult people who don't agree with you!

Quote:
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. The value you place on ROTC basic camp demonstrates how much you have left to learn . . . . Even if you had completed REAL army basic - and advanced infantry training, it is only a brief introduction.
This is a perfect example of what I just said.
The "value" I place on it comes only from the theory and science, as well as application of strategy and tactics. I understand this constitutes NO real world experience, and I've mentioned that several times - STILL you feel it's necessary degrade any learning I've done as insufficient.
As to how much I have left to learn - pull your head out man! I've clearly stated that I'VE TRIED BOTH TECHNIQUES in a training environment - I'm not talking out my ass about some grandpappy technique that I've never tried.

Quote:
Sure - lets pull that old M40 out of its specailly designed case and stick it in a random sack, so so that once "on the ground" we can stick it somewhere else and use the pouch for empty mags.
Who's talking about NBC? There are other situations where a person could utilize a gas mask without needing full MOPP. Not to mention, the HSGI and CTC Dump pouchs are MADE to fit and house the M40. I wonder, does this constitute "specially designed" to you? Or are CTC and HSGI lacking the "credentials" to pull any weight with you?

Quote:
While I have learned much on the net from other professionals, so far, your posts have been an exercise in displaying your ignorance. I'll go with what has worked for me in the real world.
So you're saying that you will only give a technique the time of day if it was presented to you by a "professional"?
As if no one else has ANY idea what they are talking about?

Quote:
You will learn more as you enter military service by keeping your mouth shut and your ears open - but something tells me you are already too smart to heed advice from anyone.
So far, all you've done is act like a total prick man - you've not said a single thing in the last few posts that are worthy of emulation. I really hope some of your buddies are taking note as to what a fuckin' jerk you are.

What exactly did you do in the service that makes you so qualified bud?
I've rubbed elbows with a lot of SF types, I'm right next to the 2nd Rangers - and those guys KNOW they are professionals. They don't have to put others down to feel good about themselves.

Lets have it - what's you kill count tough stuff?
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Old October 11, 2005, 15:19   #48
doktor_ecchs
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Quote:
Originally posted by Farmer from Hell
The taped portion of the "poormans mag pull" is also a convienent place to number your mags with a sharpie for identification. If you have a potential mag related failure you want to be able to weed it out and investigate the problem later.

They all start to look alike when you get home and look in your bag and try to find the one that gave you trouble.

FfH
Farmer, Mark and Ronin: Thanks for the many-teachered tutorial! The poorman's pull is something that I had never thought about or heard discussed (much like the ammo can/mag holder) The three methods discussed all have merit, IMO. The Sharpie idea is "BRILLIANT"as well. One can sit back and learn all kinds of valuable stuff here, can't one?

as ever,
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Old October 11, 2005, 15:25   #49
hedp
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin556


Lets have it - what's you kill count tough stuff?
Damn, every sentence you type just digs your little hole deeper and deeper.

Not that GP needs any defense from me, but I do know he's got experience enough to not get into an online answer to the above question. Professionals past and present don't pull that type of crap.

And as he said, if you truly think your little Rotzy camp experience amounted to shit in the real world Army, you are delusional.

I was just a meager enlisted Airborne Infantryman, but I'm smart enough to know that techniques are like opinions and a##holes, everyone's got one, and we all think everyone else's stinks.
I myself never cared for the carabiner method, didn't use it even though we were required by unit SOP to have taped and para corded mags. A cargo pocket with the front button undone was handy enough. Or in a real pinch, shove the empty down the neck of your uniform top. But as previously mentioned, that gets iffy when wearing IBAS.

Also, an empty mag dump pouch, while handy, is about the same as an empty, spare pocket on a rucksack. Nice concept, but full of all sorts of "mission essential " crap before you know it.

I don't care what technique you use for reloads and what you do with the empties (as long as you don't just drop them on the ground, mags might as well be gold in the real world) the key is to find what works for you and practice, practice, practice.
Unfortunately, though, practice and training take blood, sweat and tears, and they don't stock it in the Blackhawk Industries catalog.

Last edited by hedp; October 11, 2005 at 15:38.
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Old October 11, 2005, 15:56   #50
Farmer from Hell
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Ronin I like your idea for a mag pull. That picture looks eerily similar to ones posted by a gentlemen on the net who's handle refers to a tool used to change a tire. I beleive he might even be a member here although I havent seen him post in a very long time. He is uber knowlegable and is always ready to opine in a civil matter. I have leaned volumes from his internet postings on various boards.

You are obviously not him as he wouldnt have expressed his opinon in the fashion you have.

In your defense I do believe the dump pouch has become the acceptable way to stow mags until you get a chance to place them back in mag pouchs. ***scratch that return to mag pouch-stupid words-WTF was I thinking when I was typing*** As far as taking up space to me its just an over size/glorified cargo pocket on my leg. To each his own.

You need to work on your message delivery system.

FfH
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Last edited by Farmer from Hell; October 11, 2005 at 19:47.
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