Complete Medical bags - Page 2

halfinchharvard · April 24, 2008, 04:09

Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but many of these items are for "pre hospital setting" and therefore fairly useless in a survival situation without vascular surgens and facilities close at hand. You can only push saline for so long, pretty soon the patient will be bleeding clear fluid. has anyone figured out how to store blood in their getaway cabin?
EMT-P

Monkeyman · June 12, 2008, 08:17

Quote:

Originally posted by halfinchharvard
Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but many of these items are for "pre hospital setting" and therefore fairly useless in a survival situation without vascular surgens and facilities close at hand. You can only push saline for so long, pretty soon the patient will be bleeding clear fluid. has anyone figured out how to store blood in their getaway cabin?
EMT-P

Surely the best place to store blood in a getaway cabin would be in other family members. How can a medic determine blood type in the field? Blood transfusions started in aid staions not far behind the front-line trenches of France, must be pretty easy to do?

WolfBrother · June 12, 2008, 14:54

WB edited to specific

Quote:

Originally posted by Monkeyman
How can a medic determine blood type in the field?

In the book Lucifer's Hammer, the technique is explained.

Short version

A drop of your blood in a small amount of saline, a drop of someone elses blood in the same saline.

Shake it a bit.

Put it under a microscope, if it's not clumped you two can donate to each other.

Note that on a 3x5 card for each of you.

You have to xreference everyone to everyone to make sure. Lots of work ahead of time but saves time in a SHTF emergency.

Not true "in the field" type of medicine but you get the idea.

Christian · October 27, 2008, 04:08

I know this is an old thread but I just found it so it's new to me.....

As far as storing blood in your cabin, probably not a good idea for the long term, here is some info regarding that...they rotate and throw blood out for a reason.
http://www.givelife2.org/aboutblood/faq.asp

It is also accepted practice to administer blood after the 3rd liter of isotinic solution due to those solutions not carrying oxygen and only turning your blood into kool aide. So I guess that means that you don't need to carry 10 bags of 1000ml normal saline or LR for yourself. Nevermind that might weigh a ton since fluid is heavy.

The reality is that you mainly need to concentrate on the basics. Simple bleeding control, bandages, tourniquets and how and when to use them. Fracture stablization and splinting etc also come to mind. You also need to focus on the combat/practical aspects of that type of care. Most of the EMT/paramedic training focuses on the non-combat aspect of that care and is actually limited in itself under such circumstances. I know that my next statement is going to ruffle some feathers, however it still remains true. Civilian EMT's and paramedics are not trained to deliver their care under fire and during a tactical scenario, they are actually trained to avoid such a situation and deal with it after everything has been made safe for them. Imagine doing those same skills under fire, low or no light conditions.

I always like to point out to people during a bad trauma, it takes approx 2 minutes to exanguinate (bleed out) from an arterial bleed and it takes approx 4-5 minutes of not breathing or suffocation to cause brain and cardiac death. This again goes against the standard that civilian medics are trained to because the tourniquet comes before the ABCs(airway, breathing, circulation) Knowing when to and not to use hemostatic agents like QuikClot for example is also very helpful.

Once you start getting into the more involved issues like surgery and physically opening someone up, then you have a host of other problems to deal with like sepsis which itself will kill someone very quickly. Again, not recomended unless you actually know what you are doing and can keep your environment sterile.

The other thing to consider is that you actually have to stay proficient with the skills that you have/use otherwise they are useless. By that I mean that you have to have enough practice and knowledge to perform, lets say suturing. I have known paramedics who have never performed a cricothyrotomy in a 15+ year long career. It's not a difficult skill however if one has never done one then how proficent are they? They are not.

Getting back to the original question, as stated above, you will be better off putting a kit together from pieces that suits your needs rather then buying a stocked EMT bag.

Just my .4 cents.

**Story** · June 02, 2011, 18:41

Zombietime.

Reference readin' thread :
http://www.falfiles.com/groups/showt...hreadid=301693

Suggested addition to load out (also found in your local Qwikie-Mart, by the coffee sugars)

Yoinkyoinkyoink
http://www.amazon.com/Kraft-Pure-Hon.../dp/B001652KD8

PS: Question - anyone packing (feminine hygiene) tampons? Both for primary intended use and to plug exit wounds (they started showing up in Aid Bags).

**Story** · August 02, 2011, 19:36

OIF SILVERLON DRESSING PRODUCT REPORT
274TH FORWARD SURGICAL TEAM (AIRBORNE)
1 DECEMBER 2006
Randall A. Espinosa MD, FACS

Warning : graphic images. Prolly NSFW for some folks.

http://www.silverlon.com/distributor...lon_Cases.html

cpd109 · March 13, 2012, 20:00

Time is limited tonight but thought I would add this.
I am not a medic and don't like to see my own blood. (Apparently other people's blood is OK though.) If you are trying to set up a medical kit that includes antibiotics, go to surviving healthy dot com and "talk" with Dr Bob. He interviews you and sells you antibiotics that will do you good.

Good luck.

**gunplumber** · March 12, 2013, 09:15

Resurrection

What should be in an individual medical kit (small enough to wear on belt). What should be the goal? I assume a single GSW.

A medical kit for the car? (bigger than individual, smaller than a pack.)

A family medical kit. (3-6 months off the grid? Does not have to be portable, can include individual medical kits based on each member's needs and ability)

A team/platoon medic bag (medium backpack size, must be carried in addition to personal gear, so pay attention to weight.

A SHTF Patrol base infirmary? This is the dream setup. But assume no electricity.

ronpaulFAL · March 12, 2013, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Resurrection

What should be in an individual medical kit (small enough to wear on belt). What should be the goal? I assume a single GSW.

A medical kit for the car? (bigger than individual, smaller than a pack.)

A family medical kit. (3-6 months off the grid? Does not have to be portable, can include individual medical kits based on each member's needs and ability)

A team/platoon medic bag (medium backpack size, must be carried in addition to personal gear, so pay attention to weight.

A SHTF Patrol base infirmary? This is the dream setup. But assume no electricity.

This is probably an iterative process but I'll take a whack at it... note that recommendations assume you can handle the equipment. If you can't, then pack something more useful, like gauze/pads.

What should be in an individual medical kit (small enough to wear on belt). What should be the goal? I assume a single GSW.
Trauma shears, oral airway, nasal trumpet, tourniquet, tape, 11 blade scalpel, 2 16G angiocaths with stopcocks, gloves, 2 tylenol, 1 oz betadine, fill rest of space with dressing materials. Have never used quickclot but might be considered.

A medical kit for the car? (bigger than individual, smaller than a pack.)
Above plus trauma manual, lots of gloves/protective gear, hard collar, suture and instrument kit, various OTC drugs (tylenol, aspirin, ibuprofen, benadryl at a minimum), 2 thin blankets, stethoscope.

A family medical kit. (3-6 months off the grid? Does not have to be portable, can include individual medical kits based on each member's needs and ability)
This would be huge and likely stored in several large Tupperware containers and/or tool or tackle boxes. Subtract anything I mention that you can't use and replace it with bulk gauze, gloves, ammo, something you can actually use. I use one large Tupperware that is about 2' x 3' x 1.5' for bulk disposables (gloves, gauze, saline, etc) and a lockable red plastic tool box for drugs and instruments- I would also keep 2 headlights with plenty of batteries. You need large quantities of betadine, isopropyl alcohol (with 2 spray bottles for application), gauze, tubing, fracture stabilization supplies, IVs, sterile drapes, sterile instrument trays, chest tubes of various sizes with pleurevac chambers if possible, foley catheters and non-refrigerated drugs. If they require refrigeration and have a long shelf life you may be able to store them in a nearby creek bed, underground, etc depending on conditions (probably not in AZ). If it has a short shelf life, don't bother. Type 2 diabetics: lose weight now.

If you know someone who will prescribe drugs to you for future SHTF use (good luck) then I would focus on the following: Cipro, Levaquin, Bactrim, Augmentin, Penicillin, Flagyl, Keflex, Diflucan (supps and pills). You need to know what infections to use these for but MD "pharmacopeia" reference pocketbooks can help. You also need a reference for safety in pregnancy and breastfeeding, many of those pocketbooks have that data. Would also get some other basic meds: benzodiazepines and narcotics, metoprolol, isosorbide mono- or dinitrate, laxatives, ondansetron, Imodium.

A team/platoon medic bag (medium backpack size, must be carried in addition to personal gear, so pay attention to weight.
Car set plus isotonic and hypertonic saline, more IVs, protective gear, tubing, compression bags, pressure cuff, oral and rectal thermometers, shitload of gauze and tourniquets. Need to multiply number of items in car set to treat more squad members simultaneously.

A SHTF Patrol base infirmary? This is the dream setup. But assume no electricity.
Family kit in multiples to handle mass trauma, basically. Would also include items for OB/GYN (specula, infant care items) and more comprehensive reference materials. If you had solar power then you could probably get some basic monitoring equipment or an AED to round things out.

I also note that there are many, many errors in the preceding posts. Thankfully, we have already addressed the most egregious one in another post.

ronpaulFAL · March 12, 2013, 12:06

If you want to know your blood type and help your community then donate to the Red Cross and have your family members do the same. Any young children will may have been typed at birth, you may be able to get those records. If you want to do that then get a chart showing the compatible types.

Major transfusion reactions can be fatal. I don't know the lab procedure to cross blood types but I would not trust a fictional novel to explain it. Despite hospital controls we still have the occasional major reaction- be warned, it's not that simple.

October 27, 2008, 04:08	#54
Christian Registered FALaholic #: 5604 Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: PA Posts: 259	I know this is an old thread but I just found it so it's new to me..... As far as storing blood in your cabin, probably not a good idea for the long term, here is some info regarding that...they rotate and throw blood out for a reason. http://www.givelife2.org/aboutblood/faq.asp It is also accepted practice to administer blood after the 3rd liter of isotinic solution due to those solutions not carrying oxygen and only turning your blood into kool aide. So I guess that means that you don't need to carry 10 bags of 1000ml normal saline or LR for yourself. Nevermind that might weigh a ton since fluid is heavy. The reality is that you mainly need to concentrate on the basics. Simple bleeding control, bandages, tourniquets and how and when to use them. Fracture stablization and splinting etc also come to mind. You also need to focus on the combat/practical aspects of that type of care. Most of the EMT/paramedic training focuses on the non-combat aspect of that care and is actually limited in itself under such circumstances. I know that my next statement is going to ruffle some feathers, however it still remains true. Civilian EMT's and paramedics are not trained to deliver their care under fire and during a tactical scenario, they are actually trained to avoid such a situation and deal with it after everything has been made safe for them. Imagine doing those same skills under fire, low or no light conditions. I always like to point out to people during a bad trauma, it takes approx 2 minutes to exanguinate (bleed out) from an arterial bleed and it takes approx 4-5 minutes of not breathing or suffocation to cause brain and cardiac death. This again goes against the standard that civilian medics are trained to because the tourniquet comes before the ABCs(airway, breathing, circulation) Knowing when to and not to use hemostatic agents like QuikClot for example is also very helpful. Once you start getting into the more involved issues like surgery and physically opening someone up, then you have a host of other problems to deal with like sepsis which itself will kill someone very quickly. Again, not recomended unless you actually know what you are doing and can keep your environment sterile. The other thing to consider is that you actually have to stay proficient with the skills that you have/use otherwise they are useless. By that I mean that you have to have enough practice and knowledge to perform, lets say suturing. I have known paramedics who have never performed a cricothyrotomy in a 15+ year long career. It's not a difficult skill however if one has never done one then how proficent are they? They are not. Getting back to the original question, as stated above, you will be better off putting a kit together from pieces that suits your needs rather then buying a stocked EMT bag. Just my .4 cents. __________________ Pugnamus Amo Leo

June 02, 2011, 18:41	#55
Story Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 7638 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Right here Posts: 5,205	Zombietime. Reference readin' thread : http://www.falfiles.com/groups/showt...hreadid=301693 Suggested addition to load out (also found in your local Qwikie-Mart, by the coffee sugars) Yoinkyoinkyoink http://www.amazon.com/Kraft-Pure-Hon.../dp/B001652KD8 PS: Question - anyone packing (feminine hygiene) tampons? Both for primary intended use and to plug exit wounds (they started showing up in Aid Bags). __________________ The wartime diary of Kriegsmarine Oberleutnant z.S. Max von Zatorski. https://www.facebook.com/SeeklarDiaries Last edited by Story; June 02, 2011 at 18:52.

August 02, 2011, 19:36	#56
Story Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 7638 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Right here Posts: 5,205	OIF SILVERLON DRESSING PRODUCT REPORT 274TH FORWARD SURGICAL TEAM (AIRBORNE) 1 DECEMBER 2006 Randall A. Espinosa MD, FACS Warning : graphic images. Prolly NSFW for some folks. http://www.silverlon.com/distributor...lon_Cases.html __________________ The wartime diary of Kriegsmarine Oberleutnant z.S. Max von Zatorski. https://www.facebook.com/SeeklarDiaries

March 12, 2013, 09:15	#58
gunplumber Arrogant Bastard Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 96 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Surprise, AZ Posts: 15,758	Resurrection What should be in an individual medical kit (small enough to wear on belt). What should be the goal? I assume a single GSW. A medical kit for the car? (bigger than individual, smaller than a pack.) A family medical kit. (3-6 months off the grid? Does not have to be portable, can include individual medical kits based on each member's needs and ability) A team/platoon medic bag (medium backpack size, must be carried in addition to personal gear, so pay attention to weight. A SHTF Patrol base infirmary? This is the dream setup. But assume no electricity. __________________ T. Mark Graham Master Gunsmith Arizona Response Systems, LLC

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April 24, 2008, 04:09	#51
halfinchharvard Registered FALaholic #: 34090 Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 98	Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but many of these items are for "pre hospital setting" and therefore fairly useless in a survival situation without vascular surgens and facilities close at hand. You can only push saline for so long, pretty soon the patient will be bleeding clear fluid. has anyone figured out how to store blood in their getaway cabin? EMT-P

March 13, 2012, 20:00	#57
cpd109 Registered FALaholic #: 30668 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 2,488	Time is limited tonight but thought I would add this. I am not a medic and don't like to see my own blood. (Apparently other people's blood is OK though.) If you are trying to set up a medical kit that includes antibiotics, go to surviving healthy dot com and "talk" with Dr Bob. He interviews you and sells you antibiotics that will do you good. Good luck.

March 12, 2013, 12:06	#60
ronpaulFAL Registered FALaholic #: 65535 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: somewhere Posts: 2,146	If you want to know your blood type and help your community then donate to the Red Cross and have your family members do the same. Any young children will may have been typed at birth, you may be able to get those records. If you want to do that then get a chart showing the compatible types. Major transfusion reactions can be fatal. I don't know the lab procedure to cross blood types but I would not trust a fictional novel to explain it. Despite hospital controls we still have the occasional major reaction- be warned, it's not that simple.