Yea two STG's reborn and barrel timing question.

[broncobisley1]

OK, here is the question (for those who don't want to read the long story). How over timed would a barrel have to be for you to remove and reinstall it. I've always had builds come out dead center (rear sight) when fired, but on these two I messed up and over timed them, on one the rear sight is 1/32" from dead center and the other is 1/16" from dead center. Both work great and the gas piston moves freely without binding, but was just curious at what point should you redo it (3/32", 1/8", or when the gas piston binds). Now to the story of two builds that never wanted to be built apparently.

First I purchased a DSA STG kit (about a year ago), because I was pleased with the previous STG kit I purchased from them. The kit I received was in terrible condition (bad bore, rust all over, ect..) and I requested to return it for an exchange. They informed me that they would do this for a better condition kit for a $25 handpick fee. I UPS'd the kit back to them with a $25 check hoping for a better kit, and luckily that's what I got. I was pleased with the replacement kit. It even had a nice green clover painted on the side of the lower receiver so I figured it had to be good. I placed it to the side and then of course Gunthings had to get in kits for sale. I saw the excellent to like new condition and had to have one. I purchased one and it was in very-good to excellent condition and I was very pleased with it. Now I needed receivers (already had US made compliant parts purchased a while back). Placed the order with Dealers Warehouse for two Imbel receivers. Eventually they arrived at my dealer and I took them home and talked my old man into helping barrel them (makes it easier with a helper). I told him that if he helped the clover rifle would be his b-day present.

First I checked the receiver for the clover rifle (tied handguard ring to gas block and took a little off the barrel shoulder to get it to hand time correctly then we installed the barrel with no problems. Next was the Gunthings rifle. I did a quick check of the second receiver and then screwed the barrel in to see where it hand timed. I immediately noticed something was wrong. The barrel was very loose in the receiver. I removed the barrel and looked at the receiver threads. I couldn't believe what I saw. The receiver threads were screwed up big time. I wish I had taken a pic of it, but imagine the high point or ridge of the threads not having a high point but another cut or valley in it like it somehow was tapped twice with the second time going perfectly in the middle of the first threads. It looked like they would strip if you tried to actually tighten a barrel in them. I learned then to take the product to the side at your dealer and do a very very long thorough check (you'll understand after the rest of the story).

I immediately called Dealers Warehouse and asked to ship it back for a replacement. After hearing what was wrong with the receiver they said no problem and that they would reimburse me for the shipping, but that it would be about two-three weeks before they got anymore in since they sold out after I received mine (beginning Feb). Anyway, I called them (only once) to check on the status ( being polite, really just a nice reminder not to forget mine). I then started seeing people post about receiving theirs and that they were out again. I then started calling every week (since they had obviously forgotten about me) until I talked to the owner and he told me to call him the next week to give him time to find my paperwork and what happened. I did this and he said he would get it taken care of ASAP. Anyway, about 2/3rds through May my dealer received my receiver. Of course they didn't reimburse shipping and then of course I had to pay another $25 transfer fee (not my dealers fault though). At this point I was just happy to get my receiver that I didn't worry about pursuing the shipping.

Now back to the Gunthings kit, yea, except that my helper was now gone for 2-3 months so I had to recruit another helper. I installed the barrel and then checked the headspace on both builds, determining that I needed a .257 on the clover build and .261 on my build. I found that I had a .264, .262, and .260 locking shoulders. I tried to file the .262 to .261, but wasn't pleased with my filing job, so I contacted Gunsmith Tony to see if he would be interested in taking off .003 on the .264 and .260 locking shoulders and that he could have the .262 locking shoulder (still good if he took it down to .260) that I messed up in addition to whatever he charged me to take .003 off the other two. I was working a lot so it took a while, but I picked up the locking shoulders from Gunsmith Tony. He did a great job on them and now it was time to install them.

I first installed the .257 in the clover build. It was extremely hard to install (correct shank size on locking shoulder though) and I almost took it to Gunsmith Tony, but after deciding to try one good whack first it relented). The .261 locking shoulder installed in the gunthings build just like every other one I've ever done and was able to do it in the vice like I wanted to. Next on to final assembly. Went smoothly except the bolt hold open that came with the gunthings kit wouldn't move freely in the receiver, but worked fine on the clover rifles receiver. Switched the bolt hold opens and everything was swell again.

Now off to the range to test fire with 200 rnds of Aussie. Clover rifle was a little tight but opened up to 1.630 and stayed there (where I wanted it). Gunthings build ended up at 1.6305 (close enough). Both functioned flawlessly and both were very accurate. Only problem was that I found that my homemade timing device must have been bent, because they were both slightly over timed. I had to move the rear sight over (from dead center) 1/32" on the clover rifle and 1/16" over on my rifle. I presented my dad with his new STG Clover Power B-day rifle two weeks ago (and 3&1/2 months late Finally, two STG's were brought back to life. Think I need a beer now, you may too if you read all of this.

[Temp]

Probably not what you want to hear,... but it's "right" or it ain't.

It's your rifle and your workmanship.

Make it right.

[broncobisley1]

Temp, no problem with your answer. I'd rather people be honest. As far as the one that is 1/32" from dead center, I'm leaving that one alone since it's close enough. You can barely feel a ridge with your fingernail at the rear sight base. I have been debating whether to shim and possibly reheadspace (if it needed it) the one that is 1/16" (about 0.050 when I measured with calipers) from dead center since you can tell the rear sights not centered if you look closely. It doesn't hang way out, just barely over the edge but I'd still like it to be right. I'll probaly fix it once I purchase or make another timing tool.

[Court in Fl]

It sounds like you are not off by much.
If you move the barrel it will only be a small amount.
If you do adjust the barrel I don't think it will have any great effect on your headspace.

Court in FL.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by broncobisley1
OK, here is the question (for those who don't want to read the long story). How over timed would a barrel have to be for you to remove and reinstall it.

If the rifle looks good and the rear sight is a little to one side, I probably wouldn't mess with it. After all, the adjustment feature is on the rear sight for a reason.

If it offends your eye, then straighten it up to make yourself happy. It is YOUR rifle, and you should do with it whatever makes you happy.

A small timing adjustment will have no effect on headspacing. Less than .001" for sure.

The perplexing problem is what to do when the barrel is timed "perfectly" but the gas piston binds. In that situation you have the difficult choice of doing one of three things.
1. Wallow-out the gas tube support collar with a chainsaw file so the binding is eliminated.
2. Leave the barrel cockeyed so the piston does not bind.
3. Re-time the gas block.

That's why I'd go with the adjust-the-rear sight method before taking more drastic measures.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by broncobisley1
I have been debating whether to shim and possibly reheadspace (if it needed it) the one that is 1/16" (about 0.050 when I measured with calipers) from dead center since you can tell the rear sights not centered if you look closely. It doesn't hang way out, just barely over the edge but I'd still like it to be right. I'll probaly fix it once I purchase or make another timing tool.

You know, nothing says you can't file-off the protruding portion of the rear sight if it offends your eye. FAL rear sights are plentiful, and inexpensive.

If I'm following your description it sounds like the sight is moved to the left (when the rifle is held in the normal firing position). It may actually be an ADVANTAGE to have the sight moved in this direction. With the sight in this position the shooter does not have to press his face so hard against the stock to achieve proper head position. Therefore, maybe less "felt" recoil. Don't let the negatives cause you to overlook a positive.

[shootist87122]

Hells-Bells. Just canting the rifle or changing from one brand of ammo to another could cause an adjustment of 1/16" on the rear sight..

An eighth of an inch, I would tweak it, but not a sixteenth.

[broncobisley1]

Gary Jeter,
yes you are correct in that the rear sight had to be moved to the left a little bit. I always remebered the if it shoots to the right it's too tight.

shootist,
that is why I'm leaving the rifle I gave to my dad alone, because I already know from experience that when he shoots it, he will move the rear sight to the right, due to the way we differ in our sight picture ect....

On my rifle, I'm not worried about the headspace changing if I tweak it to correct the slight overtiming because that's an easy fix if it changed more than I liked. I guess I'm at that point of trying to decide how much the slight overhang bothers me (pride in my work), versus the possibility that the accuracy of the rifle might change if I tweak it (don't fix it if it ain't broke). It is very accurate and I know if that changed after tweaking it I'd end up kicking myself over and over.

I have a feeling that what will be the determining factor might be the price of the Imbels about to hit the market again. If they are reasonable I'll probaly buy another kit or two or three and purchase a timing device (Court's) this time. Then I know I would more than likely correct the barrel, but if the prices are high then I'll probaly just save some more Garands.

Thanks for the opinions, y'all gave me several things to consider.