lookin for 2 cents on .223

[Pippie]

Help! I'm looking for something that has less recoil than an FAL, something to take w/ me when I bring new shooters to the range. ( I think an FAL is a little much for a beginner) I really want a Sig 551 but they don't exist in semi, I'd settle for an HK but again nothing cool in semi. The ARs been done to death. Anyone have any thoughts as to an unusual semiauto military rifle? I was thinking either .223 or maybe 7.62x39mm, something I could build myself and out the door under $1,000. I also considered and FAL converted to .223. Everyones input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Rooster]

SKS's work good for beginners. Very light recoil and in my experience very accurate

[jerrymrc]

SAR-3 would be my first choice. Meeper will build you a .223 Fal. Off the top of my head you would have about $800 into it and it would be light if you did it right. My 7.62X25 Carbine weighs 6lbs.

[Windustsearch]

Build a .223 Galil, or get one of the excellent builds offered occaisionally here.

Shortround?

[xcpd69]

From my limited experience, and reading of others,I'd pass on the SAR-3 in 223. (Talking about the Romanian AK variant, NOT the Greek HK) Accuracy was sadly lacking in mine AND getting functional mags is a crapshoot. SAR-2 mags in 5.45x39 do NOT work with out skillful and knowledgeable modifications, if then.

JMHO and of course YMMV.

[Court in Fl]

What about a AR-180 ?

Court in FL.

[Survey Punk]

With practice and good ammo an out of the box AR15 can take you to Master class in Highpower.
The rest are just blastin' bullets. Is that what you want?

JB

[The Armour]

I'll second the AR-180. Its a fine rifle as long as you buy one of the newer ones. The first ones that come out had some issues with the lower pin holes. A second choice would be a the HK 93 or a FAL from Meeper if you can locate a Williams Alum receiver to build it on. That way it doesn't weigh too much.

[Scott S]

For something in 7.62x39, I'd recommend the ubiquitous Yugo SKS. The weight of the gun significantly mitigates the already moderate recoil of the 7.62 round. Those can be purchased out the door for less than $1000--by the half dozen.

Though not a military rifle, you can probably find a Robinson Armament M96 for less than a grand. Adjustable gas system similar to the FAL, so recoil is even less than that of an AR.

Daewoo DR-200s are available for around $600ish. Also have an adjustable gas system. Another pleasant rifle to shoot.

I had a pair of SAR-3s that ran just fine with the steel "Weiger" mags (aimsurplus had 'em in stock last time I checked). Recoil was a tad more intense than your average AR, though certainly not on the level of an FAL.

You could build an AK-74 variant. The recoil of the 5.45 is comparable to the .223, and it's definitely an unusual round for new shooters.

[Pippie]

thanks everyone, that gives me a little more to think about. I thought about the AR 180 but the sterlings and costa mesas are a little more than I was looking to spend, and the B model w/out the folding stock just isn't as cool ( I called armalite they said sorry kid your SOL ). I think I need to do a little more research and define exactly what I want this rifle I'm seeking to do. But again thanks everyone for the input and if anyone thinks of anything else I'd appreciate it.

[dtedjake]

You could always pick up an M1 Carbine for the "newer shooters"... Ammo's pretty cheap and the gun will just go up in value over time.

My grandma always used to turn me loose with one back in the summers when I was growing up... Never will be a long range shooter but for a beginner, they're light, accurate enough to learn the ropes and fun to top it all off.

[skfullgun]

If you're looking for something besides an FAL or an AR, go with the Yugo SKS for less than $100 if you look around. Or, find a nice Norinco SKS, or better yet, paratrooper model SKS (those will run you between $200 and $300). Other suggestions include: Ruger 10/22; M1 Carbine; .357 Lever-Action, etc.

[Dunk RD]

I have taken many non shooters tothe range with me. I had a ar 15 Varmint riffle with a set trigger. I would set them down show them how to set the trigger then just tell them to aim at the center and pull the trigger slowly. when they walked down to a 1 1/2 inch group ,you should have seen there face. In rifflery or archery they love to hit the target DON'T WE ALL This gun sold from bush master for arround $850.
DunkRD

[AKsrule]

As long as you're changing calibers , an AK in 7.62 has little more
recoil than a .223 - and plinking ammo is cheap.

you can build one OR just get a ready built new one for about $500.

And New shooters just LOVE shooting an EVIL AK

[Arby]

There is nothing wrong with an AR. A good one will be dependable, accurate, low on recoil and fun to shoot.

If for some reason you just don't want one, the M1 Carbine is a natural. They are light, fun to shoot, can be accurate at reasonable ranges, and have that historical significance. And they are becoming increasingly collectible. They are also good candidates for reloading.

In my experience, novices take to the Carbine like nothing else. They are a joy to shoot, have great taste, and they are mild! New shooters are not intimidated by them. They get the thrill of shooting a .30 Cal with none of the recoil of the full-sized battle rifle.

[Artful]

If you just plinking away not too far why not pistol caliber carbine?
9mm UZI semi is cool (more cool if has 3 way selector , but that's another story and not for under a grand)

10/22 can wear many different stocks/barrels/sights

even look like MG42

What about a single shot or bolt gun miltary style guns, look around for training rifles, or just check current surplus kits or bring in's.

Have we thought Bullpup -
Armalite, AUG, FAMAS, Mini-14 in Muzzlelite stock?

Why NOT an AR you have many configurations 6 position, 4 position, 2 position collapsing stock, Flat top or A2 or A1, 24,20,18,16,14.5,11.5 or 10 inch barrel -Heavy to Pencil, Flash suppressed, target crowned, or really Suppressed! use .22 LR for training, You can drop a $1k into just one or look for bargins and have a better crib of toys for the price (ie 1 lower with multiple uppers)

You can find AR180 orginals that fold in semi for under $1k and if you want folders you could look into Mini-14's (factory or after market)

But best bang for the Buck is AK Kit's and SKS's

[LV Hospice RN]

A HK SL8...a bit (?) pricey, arent all HK's, but for sure "different", most people never seen one...hoot to shoot, more accurate than my AR's...

darrell
sin city

[Windustsearch]

Yup, first time shooters who know what they are get really exited about AKs. This kid knew what they were from video games and other things and never fired a gun before. It was like a dream come true for him.



His sister was not quite as interested.




Hosting a first time shooter is really an enjoyable experience.

P.S. that backdrop is a painting.

[Pippie]

The kid w/ the AK is both disturbing and amusing all at the same time (i wanted to be that kid when I was his age)

I don't have a problem w/ the AR its just that I like stuff thats a little more unusual, which is why I like the FAL, go to your local gun shop everyone knows what an AR is but you get some strange looks when you ask about FALs and or parts (I love that).

Anyone have any luck w/ either a Galil or AR70 kit build? I also thought about an hk 33 but dsa is out of kits and I couldn't find a decent receiver

[Frontman]

Being unusual doesn't make it any better. An AK or SKS aren't unusual, but they are cheap, cheap to shoot, and are the pick of the lot for "all around gun".

A new shooter isn't going to know an FAL from a Winchester 94, the three guns a new shooter is most likely to recognize are the Uzi, the AK, or the M16.

Personally, I like the M1 carbine, light, handy, simple, cheap to shoot, and a little less than usual nowadays.

[daemon78223]

vector V93 or V53
IGF HK33K clone
robarms M96
VEPR .223/5.45
SAIGA .223
SAR/WASR 2/3
AR180b
Valmet 76

[Nodak]

Build yourself a Semi Sten
As long as you can work out the feeding issues that usually arise during the build, they are unique and a lot of fun.

You didn't mention anything about requiring accuracy .

[ftierson]

You might also think about one of the already built Bulgarian AK-74s in 5.45x39mm. They're great guns, and more accurate than you'd think.

Even more fun is building one up on one of the new Bulgarian AK-74 kits...

Forrest

[Skilter]

Originally posted by dtedjake
You could always pick up an M1 Carbine for the "newer shooters"... Ammo's pretty cheap and the gun will just go up in value over time.

My grandma always used to turn me loose with one back in the summers when I was growing up... Never will be a long range shooter but for a beginner, they're light, accurate enough to learn the ropes and fun to top it all off.

I Second this choice...

[MrGatoMan]

What about a KEL-TEC SU-16A, shoots .223, accepts AR mags, has a storage area in the butt for an extra clip and also has a built in Bi-Pod. You wouldnt be able to build it. the suggested retail for one is $640.00. Here is the kel-tec site with info on the gun.

[Pippie]

Well after much deliberation, even though it was a little more than I wanted to spend I want to go with a Galil.
Anyone know where to find kits and about how much they are?

Thanks again

[RS39]

Originally posted by Pippie
Well after much deliberation, even though it was a little more than I wanted to spend I want to go with a Galil.
Anyone know where to find kits and about how much they are?

Thanks again

Prob go to gunthings.com and ohiorapidfire.com

Another top quality, super reliable 5.56 option is the Arsenal Inc SAM5 for about $600. Milled receiver, 2moa, $20 Bulgarian waffle mags available.


PS- Romanian 5.56 AKs run fine on Weigers, shoot better with a non-Century fcg, but still need some hand picking for straight sights/siderails.

[Valkyrie0002]

The 2 AMD63s I built shoot minute of pop can out to 100yds with Wolf ammo. Cost me about $220.00 each to build. The new excellent cond Rommy AK kits should be great shooters too!

[ozzie]

How about one of the vector arms HK'S
here is there web site.

http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html

Ozzie

[shootist87122]

I sugest you just go with an AR. Easy to shoot, accruate, no recoil to speak of and possibily even made in the US. Bit of a pain in the butt to clean, however.

[m82a1fella]

I would just get a Ruger 10/22. The absolute cheapest to shoot. And for a first time shooter, why give them something to shoot that they wont even appreciate?

[cpljec]

Just me thinking, maybe I misread the question, but I would rather start a new shooter out on something other than a S/Auto. I'd think that you'd want something that's got a simple operating system that a beginner could easily understand and employ. That being said any good old .22 bolt gun or a bolt gun in a smaller centerfire caliber if it has to be centerfire, they're pretty easy to find in off brands or something from wally world.

If for some reason you're just dead set in teaching the basics of marksmanship with a difficult to learn S/A trigger and operating system you can't go wrong with a M1 Carbine. If you hapen to get a real one it's an investment and if it's a knockoff and accurate enough it'll be alot of fun and cheap to shoot. My first experience with a S/A gun was a Winchester M1 carbine I was allowed to buy AFTER I learned to shoot .75 groups with a Remington mod. 512 open sight bolt action.