Antique Rifle

[dk8019]

All,

I need some input here. My wife and I recently bought a house. It's an older home, and she has agreed to allow me to buy furniture etc for the den. That may sound strange, she typically does all the furniture buying/decorating, but the den is to be a manly room she said, so its up to me to decide what goes in there. The den has a large fireplace that is just begging for some kind of rifle hanging over it, and she's agreed that we need a rifle of some sort over the fireplace. I don't really have much in the way of older rifles, nothing blackpowder etc, even though I have always had a fascination with them. I think this is mainly due to my utilitarian view on firearms, in my mind they have to be able to serve some purpose for me to keep them. I know that sounds horrible, but we only make so much money, and it seems to reduce martial stress if I keep that viewpoint, at least for now. Anyways back to the rifle for the fireplace. I want to buy something old, or something that at least looks old. I have between $600 to $1000 to spend on it, so some antiques are easily within that range. I would like it to be safe to fire, something that could be used, or at least shot for fun. I've been looking at three different rifles, and I would like some feedback, feel free to suggest alternatives as well, but remember, it must look old. (i.e. my few Mosin-Nagants and 1903A3 do not look old enough)

The first rifle I've considered would be a Sharp's type rifle in .45-70 or some such caliber. In the past I've seen Pedersoli copies down to $500. I suppose if saw one tomorrow I would pick it up, but I doubt I will.

The second is a Springfield trapdoor. I've seen originals in the $600-$750 range. I understand that you can't fire any modern .45-70 loads in these rifles, but BP loads are fine. The good side of these rifles is they really are old, and one would hope would increase in value due to age.

The third would be one of the many Nepalese British rifles that Atlanta cutlery and the like are selling. These are really old rifles, I would prefer something of likes of a P-1839, something that conceivably be fired, but is even older that the trapdoors.

A quick sort of 4th would building a muzzleloader of some sort from a kit, CVA, someone like that. I really haven't looked into that yet, but any thoughts there would be great too.

Thanks for any response you guys give, I'm looking to purchase it between now and July or so.

[bologna]

How bout a Springfield Armory Model 1898. I think they might look antique enough for you, and you can fire modern ammo in them. Should be able to find a nice one in your price range.

[dk8019]

It looks too modern, being a bolt action and all, doesn't look a whole lot different than my 03A3. Probably being too picky ... I just know what will happen if I buy anything that according to my wife, looks just like all the rest of my rifles. Any other suggestions?

[mitchellh]

Ever thought about a Baker Rifle? I 've been looking at one of these ever since I read the Sharpe's Series, by Bernard Cromwell.

I know this isn't an antique, but it looks like one,+ it's not too expensive.
Only draw back is it has to be converted so you can shoot it, but since it wont be locked up, if it's stolen you wont be out much.

http://www.militaryheritage.com/baker.htm
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/baker2.jpg
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/baker3.jpg
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/baker4.jpg
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/baker7.jpg
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/baker8.jpg

Good Luck. You have a good wife, mine wouldn't even consider giving me a room.

[dk8019]

That's a beautiful rifle. If I'm reading the site correctly, I order the rifle from them, send it to the company here in the US for a rebarreling. Sounds like a plan, I'll run it by some friends here, and my wife of course and see what she thinks. I like the look of the bayonet/sword as well, that would be a nice pair over the fire place. In the mean time, any other comments on the other rifles would be great. This is what I love about this board, so many ideas and so much knowledge in one place!

Yeah I have a good wife, she enjoys shooting, mainly target etc, and she can kick my tail at skeet. I've got to work on that.

[dalegribble]

PM sent.

[dk8019]

I've replied to your PM, anyone else have any thoughts?

[bykerhd]

If you do buy a genuine antique, don't get talked in to polishing it up and slapping some varnish on the stock so it looks better on the mantle. You will have just decreased the value of your new investment by as much as half.
If you want bright and shiny, then buy a replica muzzleloader or a new Sharps or something. How about one of the Winchester 1873 or Henry replicas ?

Trapdoor Springfield prices were skyrocketing for a while in the 70s and 80s but now seem pretty flat and have been for some time. Might still be a decent investment.

[lutefisk]

I fire factory ammo in my 1873 Trapdoor in 45-70 Govt. You do need to make sure that you don't get stuff made for the Marlins/Ruger or Sharps with their stronger actions. The bayos and sheaths are readily available and also look cool. Another Trapdoor carbine should be arriving this week. Those, combined with an 1849 James Warner revolving carbine, should make some great decorations for the living room. Think so? Please tell my wife so I can hang them there.

[bowser]

how bout a hammered double shotgun like in all the movies?

[dk8019]

A couple good thoughts!

bykerhd:

Yeah very good point on on refinishing, my parents pounded that into my head with antique furniture.

lutefisk:

I'm guessing that the higher pressure loads are marked, correct? The trapdoors were meant for BP right? Do they make an equivalent load in smokeless? I also love those revolving carbines, to short for a fireplace, but it could be nice else where...hmm something else to think about.

bowser:

A double barrel shotgun might end up being the solution, if I decide to go cheap and spend the money on something else. I keep my eyes open.

[ThunderGod]

There are currently some of the "British" Martinis available in .303. FAC had some, IIRC, possibly Cadets. Strong, rolling block action in the $400-$600 range that uses a modern cartridge, unlike the Nepalese Martinis.

[K. Funk]

I will second the Trapdoor. I bought an M1884 at an auction that was absolutely gorgeous. Has the classic lines you are looking for, has some history behind it and can fire modern .45-70 ammo if you feel the need to make her bark. I'm still kicking myself for selling it.

krf

[firefuzz]

My vote would have to be the Springfield Trapdoor, full length rifle with bayonet.

Second would have to be a double barrel scatter gun. or a full length '73 Winchester.

Rob

[HawaiiFALer]

How 'bout keeping the early American look with a Lyman Great Plains rifle which is as close as you can get to a TRUE Hawken rifle. Not the off-tangent Thompson Center Hawken (as good as they are for shooting). No, don't start any flame wars regarding this. You won't pay antique prices. You will have a shooting firearm. And the looks should be an understated stunning. Add a true horn powderhorn, maybe a possibles bag and you're set. I would not keep powder above the fireplace though.

I don't remember the price. Maybe $400 to $600?

[kwilal]

Geez, you bought a house and the little lady is gonna let you decorate one whole room yourself as long as you clear any purchases through her first? I suggest you go back to stamp collecting and put the old lady here on the board, she seems to know what you want more than you do. Christ Almighty, grow a set, would ya?
Ken

[lutefisk]

dk,
You can use modern smokeless cartridges. For example..."Remington Express Rifle 45-70 Government 405 gr. SP R4570G (For use in all rifles)." I keep dragging into the woods for an elk, but just haven't scored on the one day every year I'll carry it. It's long, heavy and the sights aren't great for dense woods shootin'.

I'm just guessing here, but if it said "45-70 Ruger" I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

[BUFF]

My wife's grandfather had a Remington Rolling Block chambered for, it turned out, .43 Egyptian. It had a 3' long bayonet and scabbard. It was hanging over the fireplace in their kitchen, put there by the interior decorator. I admired it for years. When he passed and his grandkids were picking out things to keep, my wife chose it for me. I need to find the firing pin parts for it and shoot it some day.

I think a Remington rolling Block, current or original, would fit your budget and thoughts quite well.

Kwilal: It sounds like you don't have a lot of marriage experience. Marriage veterans learn to divide responsibilities and pick their fights. I couldn't care less how my wife decorates our house as long as we can afford it and I can be comfortable watching TV. I pick out the cars and trucks we buy, on the other hand. We shop "together" and seek input from each other, but we each have areas we are more interested in than others.

Having a set and being an over-controlling dictator aren't the same thing.

[lutefisk]

Buff, send me the broken pin parts and I'll get my brother to weld them up and regrind or make a new one. It might take a month unless I can get back to Wi and beat on him.

Which wife????????

[Powderfinger]

Myself, I would spend a couple hunnert on a contemporary second hand Kentucky rifle or some such muzzle loader. A used one will have some patina. Then I'd spend the other 4-6 hunnert on some other fun stuff.

[History Nut]

OK, I'll toss in my two cents worth of opinion. If you buy a Trap-door Springfield, please use non-jacketed bullet loads. Some sources for Cowboy Action Shooting make them. Although the current factory loads from major manufacturers are 'safe' for the rifle in good condition, jacketed bullets may cause more wear and not be as accurate as sized to fit cast bullets. Plus there is just something special about a black-powder cartridge being fired instead of smokeless.

I don't know current prices of the muzzle-loader kit guns but you might enjoy building it and be able to 'antique' it to fit your decor.

Another thought would be a replica 1861 Springfield like used in the Civil War/War Between the States. They are fun to shoot especially if you pick up all the accutourments like cartridge box. I even made up paper cartridges to get the whole experience of loading the way the soldier's did in the War.

Thanks to whoever posted the source of the Baker Rifles. I have wanted one ever since reading the Sharpe series and then watching the TV miniseries. Let's see about a thousand dollars for the rifle after making it a shooting rifle with sword bayonet. Probably several hundred dollars for proper accutourments, then probably 500 plus for a repro uniform, HOLY COW! another 2000 dollar rifle!

[HawaiiFALer]

The Lyman Great Plains rifle is about $400. If you're not into muzzleloaders, now is the time. They really throwback to the exploration of the West, the mountainmen period.

[justashooter]

double hammer.

B&P America makes short 2 and 2.5" shells for these with low pressure 7/8 oz. it's gotta be a sidelock, though.

i have bought a few for 60-100$ that are shootable. must be tight on lockup for that purpose.

[adam]

Ever think of a pair of replica black powder six shooters. I've always thought they were cool. And fun to shoot.

[bykerhd]

I like the lines of the Lyman Great Plains Rifles but don't care for the finish they come with. The ones I've seen had very rough, dull, black metal and dull, very dark finish on the wood. They still sell them as kits. That would give you the opportunity to finish one up as you wish and end up with a wall hanger and shooter to be proud of(or not). I built one of their companion .50 caliber pistols a few years back and felt it looked much better than the factory version. The steel was polished a bit more than Lyman does and then browned and the walnut stock got a reddish brown stain and Tru-Oil finish. Maybe not authentic, but good looking.

[dk8019]

Alot of good ideas again.. I'll try to get through them all.

Thundergod:

I've never really liked the looks of the Martinis, else that would be a good idea, I'm after something a bit more fancy.

Funk and Branson:

I really do like the idea of a trapdoor, and American made arm would be ideal. I'll keep my eyes open for a good one. Most I seem to find online at gunbroker, and gunsamerica seem to be a bit rough, but I will keep looking, any other online locations you could all suggest would be great.

Hawaii and Bykerhd:

The Great Plains Rifles do look nice, I have to agree that the factory assembled ones are a bit on the dark side, I might look into the kits, they are pretty inexpensive, and I think I could get them to turn out pretty well.

Kwilal:

I knew someone would have a similar input, I was actually suprised it took so long for someone to pipe in on those lines!! Actually, I've got to agree with Buff, I don't have the eye for decorating, my wife does, I'm an Electrical Engineer, and the very last thing anyone wants me to do is to be decorating a house, trust me. Remember my idea of decorating is having functional items in easy accesible locations, and how it looks matter very little to me, I leave that up to marketing.


Lutefisk:

Thanks for the info on the .45-70, I will keep that in mind when and if I go looking for ammo.

Buff:

That sounds like an interesting rifle, where would you get ammo for something like that? Thanks for input on marriage, you nailed it, division of responsibilty helps marriage work. My wife doesn't tell me how to keep up our land, how to fence, what to do with the farm critters, or what kind of cars we buy. I do get the whole basement to myself, no one goes down there (guest etc.), so she doesn't care what it looks like.

Powderfinger:

That doesn't sounds bad, if I see something that looks halfway decent, I'll pick it up, that money can go to other projects.

History Nut:

I got to agree, there is something about shooting a BP rifle that is completely different then firing the same rifle in smokeless. The last time I was at our range a guy had a replica remington rolling block of some sort, and was firing BP when we arrived, and then switched smokeless. It was far less impressive in smokeless. As far as the '61 Springfield goes, Cabela's sells what looks like a nice replica, the price is about right, and they do look fairly nice, I might have to look at one of those in person and see what I think.

Justashooter:

I do like the look of a double barrel exposed hammer shotgun, I'll be hitting our big gun store back in KY this weekend, and he always has a huge collection of old double barrels around, I'll see what's there.

Adam:

I do want a pair of pistols, sometime in the future I would guess, the problem is the chimney is really wide, about 8 ft or so wide, so the rifle needs to fill it well. Perhaps I can use the pistols somewhere else in the room, along with a revolving carbine, that would nice.

Well, thanks for all the ideas, as I said before, I'm hitting our big gun store back in KY this weekend over the memorial holiday, so hopefully I'll see something that strikes my interest. The place is huge, and never disappoints, so I'll let you all know after this weekend. If anyone else has any input, let me know.

[TheOtherBill]

I like the idea of a Great plains rifle, or a Hawken. Maybe find a possibles bag and a powder horn. It would make a nice decoration that you could take down and actually hunt with, thus you get the best of both worlds.

Oh, and pm sent....

[1gewehr]

This is our fireplace. The actual fireplace is 6' wide, the chimney brick is 10'. It took something long to look right. I originally wanted a FAL and mousegun, but wife finally agreed to this arrangement.

Top is a flintlock Long Rifle made near High Point NC sometime between 1770 and 1785. Caliber is .52. Unusual in that it was never converted to caplock like most of these were. Needed a new mainspring and lots of cleaning when I got it many years ago. Now works perfectly, but bore is somewhat rough, and it's too valuable to shoot.

Bottom is British Brown Bess .75 musket. Tower lock with 1771 date. About the best condition Bess I've seen outside a museum. Easily hits man-size targets at 100 yards. Not bad for a 230 year-old smoothbore!

Actual value on these two guns is probably in the $4-6000 range. But the same display could be done with repros for about $1000.

Good luck!
1gewehr

[dk8019]

That's very close to what I'm looking for, although two rifles might not work for me, although if I find two rifles that I like that might be what we end up with. I do like the looks of the Brown Bess. This repro looks nice:

http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket6.htm

Same place that the Baker is from, the Baker's only down side is that its a good bit shorter than the Brown Bess.

So many good options, yet only so much money...

[bykerhd]

About the best place to get an idea of what is available for reproduction 18th and 19th century weapons is to buy a Dixie Gun Works catalog. Tons of information on anything black powder. I've only actually ordered merchandise from them once. You may find the same or similar stuff available elsewhere for less money, but at least you get a good idea of what is around.
Cabelas has some exclusive stuff. Check a catalog or their website.

[BUFF]

The Reminton Rolling Blocks were made in lots of calibers. I suppose that the chambering of mine, .43 Egyptian, is one reason it ended up a wall hanger.

There were thousands made in .45/70. The current reproductions I have seen are also in .45/70 and .45/90. The old guns in .45/70 would be safe for the current standard velocity commercial smokeless loads after an okay by a gunsmith.

A web search will probably turn some up.

[dk8019]

Well, I went home to KY for the weekend, and made it by the gun store. Before I went out there, I did find out that my wife's grandfather owns a 1884 Trapdoor, I went over and took a look at it, he would never sell it though, its been in the family since the turn of last century. He said next time I'm home we will go out and shoot it. Anways, back to the store. It was looking like they didn't have anything I really wanted, that had an overpriced kit built KY type muzzleloader ($385) and plenty of coach style shotguns, etc. but all the barrels were far too short for the purpose. I was looking at a few 1894 lever gun repros that look pretty nice, found one in .357 mag, octogonal barrel, case harden receiver, but it just didn't look quite old enough. So I walk over the store a second time, and low and behold I saw two 1859 Sharps rifles. They were both Pedersoli, from what I had read the best of the Italian repros. I picked up the first one, which was a Pedersoli Berdan rifle.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/Armi...Id=250&lang=en

It's not actually pictured on this page, but its like the infantry rifle S760, except it has double set triggers. It's a breech loaded .54 caliber rifle, case hardened parts, 30" barrel. It was very nice to look at to say the least, and I decided that this was it. Best part about it, was that it was brand new in the box, and I picked it up for $400. The priced seemed really low to me, but I talked to the owner and he said he had it for a while, and never could sell it for the $800-900 it was worth. He had purchased it at a warehouse closing, and it and its brother were among a bunch of other military reenactors stuff that was also brand new. So no antique in the end, it looks like it, and I suppose it is worth more than I paid, so all and all a good buy I suppose. I have yet to shoot it, I think it will become one of those holiday rifles, you know the one that your dad always talks about, gets it out from time to time and shoots it when company is in. It looks from what I read to be somewhat involved as far as loading goes. Pedersoli actually makes a very nice brass shell insert for this rifle, that allows you to load the brass cartridge and the minie ball all in one, as opposed to the minie ball and then a paper cartridge. Anyways thanks for all your help, and input.

[Chainsaw]

I had the same idea as Powderfinger for using a Kentucky rifle. I think that would be so cool! RM