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May 07, 2005, 15:37
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#1 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 1413 Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Michigan's Scenic Upper Peninsula
Posts: 232
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16" FALs: Feedback Wanted
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Okay, here's the sitch. I've got at home a DSA STG-58A FAL, with the full 21" barrel and big chunk o' steel Stoll-style muzzle brake. It's 43" long and weighs in at around ten pounds, loaded (with the bipod removed). I've now been lugging an M16 around every day for 10 months. Lighter, and not awkard feeling when simply carrying, but 40.5" OAL is a bit much when you have to do other things (like search vehicles, pull heavy steel arm-bars back and forth, stepping in and out of tiny guard booths, etc.). So that got me to thinking, perhaps I'm being stubborn on my rifle desires. The range I belonged to only goes out to 200 yards, and for my purposes I think a 16" carbine would be handier. It'd have an OAL of, what, 38"? That's about the same as a typical shotgun with an 18" barrel, and that's good enough for all of your "entry", "CQB", or "urban" (or whatever the buzzword of the week is) work. It's also handier for field carry, but when you're outside the overall length of the weapon generally becomes less of an issue (weight is still there, though). So who here has a 16" .308 carbine of any make? What kind do you have, how does it handle, and how does it shoot? How bad is the muzzle blast? Mine WON'T have a muzzle brake. If anything, I'll get the L1A1 style flash hider...adds an inch or so of length, but you get the bayonet lug, and it weighs hardly anything. More importantly, how badly are your ballistics hurting? What's the muzzle velocity difference, in standard NATO 147 grain ball, between 21", 18", and 16"? Does it matter? Would a badguy even notice the difference (okay, dumb question). Is your effective range significantly reduced? (It's all in the sub-600 meter realm anyway, practically speaking.) Here's my dreamy-carbine, in the mental works: -DSA Type I receiver, no carry handle cut -DSA lightweight alloy lower, NON-extended selector -DSA para-style, windage-knob rear sight -Penguin non-bipod-cut handguards -Penguin humpback buttstock -Ergo G3-style grip -DSA/Badger 16.25" stainless steel barrel, re-threaded, finished black -L1A1 flash hider -DSA Scope Mount -Compact Optic (yet to be determined, but quick-release) -Specter SOP Sling 200 yards is the longest range I have access too. I would surely like to be proficient to farther than that. Practical range depends on where you live. Here, in Qatar, for instance, you can often easily see for ten kilometers. Naturally, though, I'm not going to be here much longer. 59 days! In any case, I've been batting this back and forth for awhile. The 16" FAL carbines seem to be very popular these days, and I'm wondering if they're not onto something. On the other hand, I'm wondering if perhaps I'm not being suckered in by flashy ads and such. In truth, I'm not going to be doing a lot of house clearing. (In any case, I've practiced room-to-room movement with my big heavy FAL; it's doable, you just have to give yourself a little more room to manuver.) I'm certainly not going to be searching vehicles anymore. I've thought about, instead of buying a whole new rifle, simply having my existing rifle chopped to, say, 18", 19" maybe, flash hider installed, and replace the lower with a lightweight alloy one. So, let's here some opinions. Should I go 16", stay at 20+", or split the difference and go 18"? Hmm...perhaps the smartest thing to do is to simply stick with what I've got and modify it to suit me better? I'll bet that it handles better once I get that damned 2-pound Stoll brake off of there. What a big heavy waste of steel! Or so it would seem. I'm sure the wire-cutting feature and grenade-launching ability of the original Stoll flash hider were handy, but I don't need those features. In any case, overall length...38", 40", 42"....how much does it matter in the field? Is a 20" pump shotgun like the Mossberg 590 considered too long for Close Quarters Battle? It's got the same OAL as an M16. |
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May 07, 2005, 15:47
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#2 |
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Administrator
Silver Contributor 
FALaholic #: 1211 Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 31,055
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16" with gas block moved back, and short DSA handguards.
Muzzle blast and recoil are not at all bothersome by comparison to any other FAL.
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. . . Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association. |
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May 07, 2005, 16:38
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#3 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 3005 Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,833
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1.) Please God don't chop a perfectly good StG.
2.) My 16" carbine handles great, controls muzzle blast fine, and recoils lightly. I lose about 50fps/barrel inch cut, so my POI has only changed about 1.5" at 100 yd. 3.) 16" vs. 18": usually the 16's and 17's need the gas port opened up a bit for reliability. 18's and up do not.
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Hey!...mordre mes brillantes métal âne. |
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May 07, 2005, 18:47
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#4 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 124 Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Lancaster, PA USA
Posts: 8,499
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'crawler"
I have a 16" FAL suchas gary.jeter posted..sans folder. Handles well, accurate enough for the ranges you listed. I've rung the 600 m. gong on the odd occasion. No brake/FHas the bbl is so short; the blast and noise don't start till well past the muzzle  When "Shorty" comes out to play, he gets everyone's attention!  Don't worry about the velocity loss; easily adjusted for and only about 150fps. geerhed implores you to NOT use an StG kit?? I dunno? "Shorty's" sportin' a nice, tight, crisp Austrian tube, and nary a problem. AT the time of purchase, it only cost $10 more for the whole SA kit w/the StG bbl. You choice of parts looks impressive. The DSA/Badger bbl *may* be a bit over the top AFA cost and real-world accuracy, but it's your dream gun, not mine. Just look at it this way.. You WON'T be under gunned OR oversized..WIN/WIN in my opinion. Best Paul
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All or Nothing! Senator McCarthy was right! and as always......FYB! |
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May 07, 2005, 18:52
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#5 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 3965 Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 37
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Not to be a smart ass, but there is a lightweight .30 caliber weapon with short OAL already available.
Its called an AK-47. .308 velocity loss in a 16" barrel greatly narrows the gap compared to 7.62x39 out of a 16" barrel. I would stay at 17 3/8 since there is a lot more experience in making guns of these barrel length work.
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More fun than a barrel of guns... |
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May 07, 2005, 19:19
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#6 |
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"THUG" MODERATOR
FALaholic #: 2223 Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: southwestern,usa
Posts: 6,791
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my para's 17 3/8" barrel chrono'd just 70 fps and less,, than member huntr's full length 21" barrel today at the range..
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the worst thing about making it to middle age, is watching people you know and love, start dying off. i miss you cubby 10-10-08 kim, thanks for being my friend. 
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May 07, 2005, 20:15
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#7 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 12098 Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: CA
Posts: 3,521
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I'm a carbine guy. I have five ARs, all 16" barrels or shorter.
When I decided to start building FAL carbine's, I read alot here about barrel lengths. And I concluded that FN/Imbel determined the 17 3/8" Para/carbine barrel length for a reason. So, now I've got three 17" s, and probably another coming soon. 
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I've known daredevils and I ain't got nothing against them.....its just they're all dead. |
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May 08, 2005, 08:43
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#8 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 10120 Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,458
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I have a 17 inch barrel on one of my L1A1s and I find I shoot it the most. Plain barrel but have been thinking of adding a L1A1 FH but have not gotten around to it, it will add about 3 inches. It started off as 21 inch barrel but it just did not shoot as well as I wanted. I decided to cut it just for grins before it was rebarreled. It was a back alley cut job. Hacksaw, file, round headed bolt with valve gringing compound and a drill. Out to 200 yards my point of impact did not change nor did my gas setting. Last words, I LIKE IT.
Gunseller |
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May 08, 2005, 08:51
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#9 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 15340 Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,647
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My 16.25" carbine with the Enterprise Arms Zero climb brake is EXTREMELY loud, but has very little felt recoil impulse. I think a shorty STOLL or Belgium FH would scale down the noise some, but not be as effective on reducing recoil.
I did have to open the gas port to get the rifle to function properly at a 4.5 gas setting. I was told that shorter than 17.35" is usually where this starts being a problem. If I had not picked up the cut and threaded 16.25" barrel new, for a song, I wouldn't have shortened it past 18". I think a shortened STOLL has a lot of function going for it and I like the looks of them. Rob
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May your rifle always shoot straight, your mag never run dry, you always have one more round than you have adversaries, and your good mate always be there to watch your back. I'm not anti-anything...but I am PRO Christian, PRO American, and I'm not ashamed of being white. |
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May 08, 2005, 10:39
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#10 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 8894 Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NC
Posts: 2,640
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Mine was done by Chip & Johnny (Moses) at CMP Armory in Dallas, NC.
It started life as a cheap parts kit with a mix of Imbel and STG parts, toss in an Imbel receiver, Izzy stockworks, and some good 'smithin' from the boys at CMP, and this is the result-  Recoil- not noticibly different than any other FAL. Muzzle blast? Doesn't bother me, but those that shoot around me always ask "What kind of cannon is that?" Accuracy? It's as accurate as any semi I've fired. sub 2" groups at 100, and hits man-sized pop-ups out to 600 yds with no hesitation. It has the BEST trigger I've ever felt on any FAL, and any milsurp for that matter. Better than a K-31, M-39, any Mauser...it's just awesome. Johnny worked some real magic on this trigger.  Reliability- Flawless. I'd trust my life to this rifle. 
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If I let you, you would make me destroy myself In order to survive you, i must first survive myself I can sink no further, and I cannot forgive you there's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain I will use my mistakes against you, there's no other choice I'm shameless now, I'm nameless now, I'm nothing now, I'm no one now but my soul must be iron 'cause my fear is naked I'm naked and fearless and my fear is naked... |
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May 08, 2005, 15:15
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#11 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 1413 Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Michigan's Scenic Upper Peninsula
Posts: 232
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The Badger barrel is mainly so I can get a stainless steel barrel, the next best thing to chrome lining.
I don't know what research FN did on making shorty FALs, but are the factory DSA carbines known for reliability problems? I dug up some chrono numbers. 147 grain ball still does over 2600 feet per second from the 16.25" barrel, on average. Still beats a 123 grain bullet at 2300 feet per second (not to mention the better sectional density). Don't worry, I more than likely won't chop my STG barrel. If anything, I'll have it replaced. I might trade the whole rifle, but modifying might be cheaper. I'll have to send it off...don't have the facilities for a rebarrel job at home (not to mention I"d have to rethread the barrel to fit the left-handed thread of the L1A1 flash hider...) Thanks guys! |
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May 10, 2005, 12:39
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#12 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 11071 Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pa.
Posts: 2,560
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Hey, Pittbull, you have my FAL!
Actually, my next purchase will be a FAL carbine, which I am going to fit with Izzy furniture. I just love the look of those handguards on a carbine.
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Joe |
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May 10, 2005, 14:55
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#13 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 8894 Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NC
Posts: 2,640
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 I know! I love that lil' carbine. Every time it goes to the range, it never fails to put a grin on whomever's shooting its face! I always have to deflect offers to purchase it...one magazine and the shooter is in love  Look forward to seeing yours when you've got it!
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If I let you, you would make me destroy myself In order to survive you, i must first survive myself I can sink no further, and I cannot forgive you there's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain I will use my mistakes against you, there's no other choice I'm shameless now, I'm nameless now, I'm nothing now, I'm no one now but my soul must be iron 'cause my fear is naked I'm naked and fearless and my fear is naked... |
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May 10, 2005, 16:17
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#14 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 220 Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Metro New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,072
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The one, the Only FN74.
 created from a mixture of the best parts from an STG58 kit. Barrel was a like new STG barrel chopped to 14.5" - yep 14.5", threaded and an AK74 .308 dyna-systems brake installed permenantly installed to give the barrel an overall length of 16.25". Penguin OD furnature added, except for SAW OD pistol grip from TAPCO. Tapco topcover scope mount, HAKKO bed - 24 holosight, Inch bolt and sandcut carrier, Century Trigger and sear, Century cocking handle round out the parts count.    This gun is on the money. 1-1.5" groups with aussie or South african at 100 yards. In the desert, I was able to hit man sized targets routinely out to 500 meters with little effort. Gas port is opened up to .125" and function is 100% with SA, Aussie, Indian and virtually any decent quality surplus or new ammo. Gas setting is on 4. At the last IDPA style match I attended, I whipped at least 14 mousegunners in both time and accuracy with this .308 rifle. They said it could not be done - well it was, and that was the first time I ever shot a match with the FAL. Check EMDII's thread on the South Carolina section of meetings and events or state chapters - look for the Low Country Boil section match at AIKEN, SC March of 2004. I would not have it any other way. Regards, FN74
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DEO VINDICE! YOU! - OUT OF THE GENE POOL!!! DABTL said on 7/15/06, "I rather think it is a good idea to shut down those machine gun kits such as the MG42 from coming into this country. I cannot imagine a good use to which they might be put. I can think of many ways they could be a problem" "An MG42 has an enormous rate of fire and in the wrong hands can and will do an enormous amount of damage, some day. If not bringing in any more of those will put that day off it will be worth it." |
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May 10, 2005, 16:18
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#15 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 3235 Join Date: May 2001
Location: Lincoln County, MT
Posts: 3,495
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Lean mean 17" machine...
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United We Stand - Falaholics One and All |
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May 10, 2005, 16:28
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#16 | |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 220 Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Metro New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
Average 7.62x51mm is pushing 2750-2800FPS out of a 21" barrel. Subtract 5" for a 16" barrel and your looking at a 100-125FPS loss so between 2600 and 2650FPS - still 300-350FPS more pushing a heavier bullet than the 7.62x39mm out of a 16" AK...
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DEO VINDICE! YOU! - OUT OF THE GENE POOL!!! DABTL said on 7/15/06, "I rather think it is a good idea to shut down those machine gun kits such as the MG42 from coming into this country. I cannot imagine a good use to which they might be put. I can think of many ways they could be a problem" "An MG42 has an enormous rate of fire and in the wrong hands can and will do an enormous amount of damage, some day. If not bringing in any more of those will put that day off it will be worth it." |
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May 10, 2005, 16:29
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#17 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 220 Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Metro New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,072
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16.5" para that used to be mine. Now belongs to another Faler here in GA.
 Nary a problem with it either.
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DEO VINDICE! YOU! - OUT OF THE GENE POOL!!! DABTL said on 7/15/06, "I rather think it is a good idea to shut down those machine gun kits such as the MG42 from coming into this country. I cannot imagine a good use to which they might be put. I can think of many ways they could be a problem" "An MG42 has an enormous rate of fire and in the wrong hands can and will do an enormous amount of damage, some day. If not bringing in any more of those will put that day off it will be worth it." |
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May 10, 2005, 16:51
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#18 |
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Supreme Leader
FALaholic #: 2361 Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 2,610
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Meet my little friend, MAUS
 Barrel is 16.5" to end of brake. I modified the sights to a ghost ring configuration.   Rooster shoots MAUS Fun little rifle to shoot and very lightweight. Soon it will be sporting the Phoenix flash hider. As it is now, you don't want to be anywhere but directly behind the muzzle, due to the blast.
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“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the limits of the law" because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” - Thomas Jefferson Salami, salami, baloney... :bow: http://www.derbyfals.com/home.htm |
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May 10, 2005, 18:05
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#19 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 12477 Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 767
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16.75" FAL carbine owner here - it's an Imbel kit on a Coonan receiver, with an FSE fake combo device(I live in NY, unfortunately).... I also own pretty much the same rifle with a full length barrel.... Although I don't have a chrono, with both being zero'd 2" high at 100 yards, the carbine shoots about 1" lower at 200 yards than it's longer brother... OAL of the carbine with an STG-58 stock is approx. 38" - it's less than 4" longer than my SAR-1... The gas port has been opened to .125", and it's been stone reliable at a gas setting of 5, with a Tapco gas piston and new recoil springs... In short, it is my most favorite rifle, and the one I'd grab 1st - without hesitation...
As for the difference between 7.62x51 in a 16" barrel and 7.62x39 in an AK - although my SAR-1 is no slouch(typically an honest 3-4MOA), the FAL carbine is DEFINETELY more accurate - and the difference in impact on plate steel between the 2 is significant... - georgestrings
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"Having no idea what DU is all I can say is whatever it is must be intelligent and informed." - DABTL |
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May 10, 2005, 23:35
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#20 |
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Signal Zero
Silver Contributor
FALaholic #: 9330 Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,016
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i went with a 18-1/4 inch" barrel ovl. and it is just wright. i am a happy camper
~Richard just a thought from the MB to the chamber 18-1/4 inch
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~RT |
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May 11, 2005, 08:05
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#21 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 11900 Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA, USA
Posts: 1,046
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Nightcrawler,
pretty sure the L1A1 flash hider is right hand thread. Someone will correct me if wrong. |
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May 11, 2005, 10:30
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#22 | |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 2252 Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 334
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Quote:
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May 12, 2005, 17:58
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#23 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 17085 Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6
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Finally got a few good pictures of my carbine (SA 58). Hopefully I'll be able to take it to the range this weekend and try it out for the first time. I can't wait.
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May 12, 2005, 18:01
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#24 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 17085 Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6
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one more:
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May 18, 2005, 17:35
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#25 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 4398 Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 91
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Cadillac, would you tell us more about your FH? Is that a vortex?
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family*land*soul |
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May 18, 2005, 20:20
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#26 |
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Moderator
Armed Curmudgeon 
FALaholic #: 12090 Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SC-Low Country
Posts: 4,526
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16.25" barrel from a G1 built on a Century receiver. FSE gen3 HTS, DSA X series furniture, Bushnell HoloSight w/ 1moa dot. And the MOAB attached. Loud as hell under cover or beside the rifle, but not so bad behind the trigger. Brake work so well it pulls the rifle forward and pushes the muzzle down. Able to hit a 2/3 scale steel silhouette all day long at 200 yds.
Almost as loud as FN74's AK-74 brake 
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Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. Lt. Col. Grant L. Rosensteel, Jr. USAF ______________________________ If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it. |
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May 18, 2005, 20:21
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#27 |
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Moderator
Armed Curmudgeon
FALaholic #: 12090 Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SC-Low Country
Posts: 4,526
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Here is a closeup of the MOAB (Mother Of All Brakes).
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Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. Lt. Col. Grant L. Rosensteel, Jr. USAF ______________________________ If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it. |
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May 18, 2005, 20:26
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#28 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 3194 Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 654
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Just chron my 16 incher this weekend. Was using Aussie 147 grain.
Only fired a couple of rounds but average was 2,570 with the gas setting at 6.
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If only FALs were made in 50 cals.... |
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May 20, 2005, 23:59
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#29 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 13652 Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 692
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16.5" carbine. I love it!!!
 cheers, Mike |
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May 21, 2005, 17:36
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#30 |
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Registered
FALaholic #: 347 Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Orleans LA
Posts: 99
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I have a 21" STG but my next door neighbor has a DSA 16.25" STG and it runs like a clock and handles soooooo good that my next FAL will have a shorter tube.
Bill
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Happiness is a warm gun... Bang bang, shoot shoot... Beatles cira 1968 |
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