Bound Book questions

NDFAL · January 13, 2005, 11:59

I've searched here and on the ATF site and I can't find anything about this. I currently am using loose-leaf sheets from the PDFs I found here as my bound book. I would like to change to a true bound book (for convenience only). Is there any restriction to replacing a bound book?

Also, how much Importer information do you guys list. Is it enough to record the importer markings as they are on the rifle or should I include additional information (e.g. CAI import marks).

djenkins · January 13, 2005, 13:52

I've never heard of a restriction on replacing bound books. Brownells has one for about $3.

Dennis Jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by NDFAL
I've searched here and on the ATF site and I can't find anything about this. I currently am using loose-leaf sheets from the PDFs I found here as my bound book. I would like to change to a true bound book (for convenience only). Is there any restriction to replacing a bound book?

Also, how much Importer information do you guys list. Is it enough to record the importer markings as they are on the rifle or should I include additional information (e.g. CAI import marks).

Terick · January 13, 2005, 13:53

If you keep the old one and just start a new one I can't see the problem. If you copy the old one into the new one and then dispose of the original, (and they check you, and you admit to it) things might get sticky.

As far as importer info, first I copy what's on the rifle EXACTLY, and if there's room I might note more for clarity. I also keep a seperate record of what those abbreviations stand for in case it ever comes up.

I think the intent of the book is to simply keep a complete and accurate record of the transaction. Enough is enough.

Stranger · January 13, 2005, 14:43

Why not just punch them and stick 'em in a three ring binder?

NDFAL · January 13, 2005, 14:45

I intend to dispose of the original (if legal). There are only a few entries in my book, but they ended up messier than I would like. Now that I have done several, I realize that I want more room to write clearly. As far as I can tell, there is NO reference in the ATF code to re-copying books. I hate that I don't know for certain if I am following the law.

Stranger · January 13, 2005, 15:04

Keeping multiple copies is encouraged. They don't want your only copy to go up in a fire with all of its valuable information lost. Write up another one and accidentally destroy the other.

meisterdg · January 13, 2005, 21:15

I suggest you write to BATFE and ask them directly, then post their reply here so we all can benefit. I have written many questions to them and usually get a response within a month. The address should be with all the info they sent you when you received your C&R FFL. Most of the time they want a written not an email sent to them to answer technical questions.

pmf · January 14, 2005, 08:02

Just go to Office Depot or Staples and buy a bound ledger book for $10. Its bound and the pages are numbered. Seems like an airtight alternative. I've had legal experts on these boards tell me that three ring binders, or even spreadsheets are OK. However, the book is referred to as a bound book with conseq numbered pages. For $10, why screw around?

I write each entry on a separate page and tape the reciept in the back of the page. Like someone above said, write everything down you can think of.

Blaster · January 14, 2005, 09:32

Wonder just how would "they" ever know that what they are checking is not the original bound book? Just so long as you transfer each and every entry from the old book to the new one, I would believe that there should be no problem at all. And really, why would they even care?? And if they were to question it, you MUST tell them the TRUTH, that the book appeared a little messy and although it was perfectly legible to you, that you were merely rewriting it to make it 100% legible for the inspector so it would make their job much easier. IMHO

Stranger · January 14, 2005, 10:58

I guess the bottom line is that the BATFE is not going to break down your door and drag you off to jail for making a "new" book, or not having more desirable "hardbound, 9x11.56 sq.in., blue lined, 55% cotton" book. At most they will warn you not to do it again on pain of having your license revoked.

My 01FFL friend related a second hand story told to him by the agent that checks out his books. Apparently, they found 160 violations at one place in WA and all the guy got was a long speech. They didn't even threaten to revoke the license.

If you are the type of person who is going to stress about it, call the local office and figure out what they recommend.

pmf · January 14, 2005, 11:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Blaster
Wonder just how would "they" ever know that what they are checking is not the original bound book?

They have dectectors that can tell when the ink dried for each entry. If its all the same time, then the black helicopter whisks you away to a Yemeni prison where the truth will be extracted from you.

Blaster · January 14, 2005, 13:55

Wow, now we are getting into some serious shi-.

Dah, some little elf must have come in while I was sleeping and totally redid my books. Sorry ocifer!

**captk** · January 14, 2005, 16:19

Before I got my C&R the BATF came to my home for an interview (interviewed me, not me interviewing them). I was told it must be a bound book. Found my "bound book" at a art supply store. It's a sketch book which is bound and also 14"x9". I could not find anything large enough at Staples or Office Depot.
Ken

gotm4 · January 15, 2005, 09:12

I use the 'bound book' from Brownells in a 3 ring binder. With my original signed FFL stored with it.

Part number #108-006-000 Firearms Record Book $3.00

allanschisel · January 15, 2005, 09:29

Get the pre made bound books at Brownells. They are cheap and if you ever get inspected, the ATF agent will like it much better (you want to keep them happy). When I was inspected, I was using a three ring binder and xeroxed copies of a form I made following the one on the ATFs example page which I had punched holes in. The agent said it's a misunderstanding that I can do that and said I had to switch to a bound book that was "bound." I had been inspected in the past and the agents never told me that before. Maybe they made an in house decision? I like the Brownells book better anyway. Do not destroy your 1st book. You can recopy more neatly in a new one, but if you do get caught without the 1st book, you are in trouble. Don't destroy the original book. Why take the chance? You can recopy into your new book, just make sure you save the old one if you get inspected. The only thing I would add to the Brownells book is a column for purchase price. Makes it easier than looking up old invoices if you need that info. I'm an 01, so maybe they were being more stict with me. If I had 160 violations, I would of gotten more than a long winded speech. If you can't account for some guns, I was told there would be a hearing where I could lose my license. I've forgotten the exact numbers, but I think if it was 10, that calls for automatic revocation of your license. Three calls for an automatic hearing. I didn't research any of this, just did what the agent told me to do. He is a super nice guy and was not out to bust me. In fact, he was helpful and gave me some really good advice on how to make record keeping easier while satisfying the ATF.
Allan Schisel

Blaster · January 17, 2005, 18:49

Allan, according to the Year 2000 edition of the Green Book of Federal Regulations, on page 138, it is stated as follows: (E1)
A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. In either event, the format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively"..... So, if they check out my "bound book" which consists of a loose leaf 3-ring binder, I guess I'll have to show them their own book of instructions if they disapprove of what I have...Also, (E2) a dealer in firearms is NOT limited to using only one "bound book".

djenkins · January 17, 2005, 19:06

I personally don't intend to try to out nitpick the nitpickers.

Dennis Jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by Blaster
Allan, according to the Year 2000 edition of the Green Book of Federal Regulations, on page 138, it is stated as follows: (E1)
A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. In either event, the format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively"..... So, if they check out my "bound book" which consists of a loose leaf 3-ring binder, I guess I'll have to show them their own book of instructions if they disapprove of what I have...Also, (E2) a dealer in firearms is NOT limited to using only one "bound book".

daemon · January 17, 2005, 20:33

just order a book/package from RK Enterprises 805-687-1416.

2616 Las Positas Rd.
Santa Barbara, CA 93105

from what I have heard these books are way better than brownells or a thrown together packet of loose leaf or a office depot ledger. Just my .02

January 13, 2005, 14:43	#4
Stranger Registered FALaholic #: 3555 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 9,499	Why not just punch them and stick 'em in a three ring binder? __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

January 13, 2005, 14:45	#5
NDFAL Registered FALaholic #: 6413 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fargo, ND Posts: 35	I intend to dispose of the original (if legal). There are only a few entries in my book, but they ended up messier than I would like. Now that I have done several, I realize that I want more room to write clearly. As far as I can tell, there is NO reference in the ATF code to re-copying books. I hate that I don't know for certain if I am following the law. __________________ Tim Ryan Fargo, ND

January 13, 2005, 15:04	#6
Stranger Registered FALaholic #: 3555 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 9,499	Keeping multiple copies is encouraged. They don't want your only copy to go up in a fire with all of its valuable information lost. Write up another one and accidentally destroy the other. __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

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January 13, 2005, 11:59	#1
NDFAL Registered FALaholic #: 6413 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fargo, ND Posts: 35	Bound Book questions I've searched here and on the ATF site and I can't find anything about this. I currently am using loose-leaf sheets from the PDFs I found here as my bound book. I would like to change to a true bound book (for convenience only). Is there any restriction to replacing a bound book? Also, how much Importer information do you guys list. Is it enough to record the importer markings as they are on the rifle or should I include additional information (e.g. CAI import marks). __________________ Tim Ryan Fargo, ND

January 13, 2005, 13:53	#3
Terick Registered FALaholic #: 3421 Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: . Posts: 415	If you keep the old one and just start a new one I can't see the problem. If you copy the old one into the new one and then dispose of the original, (and they check you, and you admit to it) things might get sticky. As far as importer info, first I copy what's on the rifle EXACTLY, and if there's room I might note more for clarity. I also keep a seperate record of what those abbreviations stand for in case it ever comes up. I think the intent of the book is to simply keep a complete and accurate record of the transaction. Enough is enough.

January 13, 2005, 21:15	#7
meisterdg Registered FALaholic #: 6509 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Washington (the Sate) Posts: 156	I suggest you write to BATFE and ask them directly, then post their reply here so we all can benefit. I have written many questions to them and usually get a response within a month. The address should be with all the info they sent you when you received your C&R FFL. Most of the time they want a written not an email sent to them to answer technical questions.

January 14, 2005, 08:02	#8
pmf Registered FALaholic #: 2923 Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 1,639	Just go to Office Depot or Staples and buy a bound ledger book for $10. Its bound and the pages are numbered. Seems like an airtight alternative. I've had legal experts on these boards tell me that three ring binders, or even spreadsheets are OK. However, the book is referred to as a bound book with conseq numbered pages. For $10, why screw around? I write each entry on a separate page and tape the reciept in the back of the page. Like someone above said, write everything down you can think of.

January 14, 2005, 09:32	#9
Blaster Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 11913 Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Out in the hills in Colorado Posts: 5,523	Wonder just how would "they" ever know that what they are checking is not the original bound book? Just so long as you transfer each and every entry from the old book to the new one, I would believe that there should be no problem at all. And really, why would they even care?? And if they were to question it, you MUST tell them the TRUTH, that the book appeared a little messy and although it was perfectly legible to you, that you were merely rewriting it to make it 100% legible for the inspector so it would make their job much easier. IMHO

January 14, 2005, 10:58	#10
Stranger Registered FALaholic #: 3555 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 9,499	I guess the bottom line is that the BATFE is not going to break down your door and drag you off to jail for making a "new" book, or not having more desirable "hardbound, 9x11.56 sq.in., blue lined, 55% cotton" book. At most they will warn you not to do it again on pain of having your license revoked. My 01FFL friend related a second hand story told to him by the agent that checks out his books. Apparently, they found 160 violations at one place in WA and all the guy got was a long speech. They didn't even threaten to revoke the license. If you are the type of person who is going to stress about it, call the local office and figure out what they recommend. __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

January 14, 2005, 13:55	#12
Blaster Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 11913 Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Out in the hills in Colorado Posts: 5,523	Wow, now we are getting into some serious shi-. Dah, some little elf must have come in while I was sleeping and totally redid my books. Sorry ocifer!

January 14, 2005, 16:19	#13
captk Veteran Member Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 4218 Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,113	Before I got my C&R the BATF came to my home for an interview (interviewed me, not me interviewing them). I was told it must be a bound book. Found my "bound book" at a art supply store. It's a sketch book which is bound and also 14"x9". I could not find anything large enough at Staples or Office Depot. Ken

January 15, 2005, 09:12	#14
gotm4 Registered FALaholic #: 12120 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Woodbridge, VA Posts: 71	I use the 'bound book' from Brownells in a 3 ring binder. With my original signed FFL stored with it. Part number #108-006-000 Firearms Record Book $3.00

January 15, 2005, 09:29	#15
allanschisel Registered FALaholic #: 10747 Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Central Florida Posts: 165	Get the pre made bound books at Brownells. They are cheap and if you ever get inspected, the ATF agent will like it much better (you want to keep them happy). When I was inspected, I was using a three ring binder and xeroxed copies of a form I made following the one on the ATFs example page which I had punched holes in. The agent said it's a misunderstanding that I can do that and said I had to switch to a bound book that was "bound." I had been inspected in the past and the agents never told me that before. Maybe they made an in house decision? I like the Brownells book better anyway. Do not destroy your 1st book. You can recopy more neatly in a new one, but if you do get caught without the 1st book, you are in trouble. Don't destroy the original book. Why take the chance? You can recopy into your new book, just make sure you save the old one if you get inspected. The only thing I would add to the Brownells book is a column for purchase price. Makes it easier than looking up old invoices if you need that info. I'm an 01, so maybe they were being more stict with me. If I had 160 violations, I would of gotten more than a long winded speech. If you can't account for some guns, I was told there would be a hearing where I could lose my license. I've forgotten the exact numbers, but I think if it was 10, that calls for automatic revocation of your license. Three calls for an automatic hearing. I didn't research any of this, just did what the agent told me to do. He is a super nice guy and was not out to bust me. In fact, he was helpful and gave me some really good advice on how to make record keeping easier while satisfying the ATF. Allan Schisel

January 17, 2005, 18:49	#16
Blaster Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 11913 Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Out in the hills in Colorado Posts: 5,523	Allan, according to the Year 2000 edition of the Green Book of Federal Regulations, on page 138, it is stated as follows: (E1) A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. In either event, the format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively"..... So, if they check out my "bound book" which consists of a loose leaf 3-ring binder, I guess I'll have to show them their own book of instructions if they disapprove of what I have...Also, (E2) a dealer in firearms is NOT limited to using only one "bound book".

January 17, 2005, 20:33	#18
daemon Registered FALaholic #: 7260 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Communist Republic of Hawaii Posts: 325	just order a book/package from RK Enterprises 805-687-1416. 2616 Las Positas Rd. Santa Barbara, CA 93105 from what I have heard these books are way better than brownells or a thrown together packet of loose leaf or a office depot ledger. Just my .02