Ah dammit.... (IMBEL receiver bottoming out)

nordland · November 04, 2004, 17:13

I had a wrench on my new Argentine para barrel flats and the wrench slipped and smeared the GD barrel flats....damn imbel receiver hand tightened to 9:00.....

Snakeshot · November 04, 2004, 17:48

Time for a barrel vise.

I HATE using the flats. Good luck.

nordland · November 04, 2004, 18:24

Will them barrel vises slip...say if you tried to go from 9:30 to 12:00 using a cheater bar over your receiver wrench?
I was looking at one in brownells.....also was looking at a monster made by..........The R.Banks Extra Heavy Duty Barrel Vise ~ that one looked like it would hold the barrel and not slip....even if you twisted the barrel off in the receiver....big rugged looking thing!
Stange thing is.....I screwed one of those old SA.R1 barrels into that receiver....and it hand timed to 11:00.....would have had no trouble installing that barrel...

**W.E.G.** · November 04, 2004, 18:33

Maybe.

But, why would you want to?

Just reduce the barrel shoulder to get it to time to 11:00.
Its a tried and true method.

nordland · November 04, 2004, 18:49

Quote:

Originally posted by gary.jeter
Maybe.

But, why would you want to?

Just reduce the barrel shoulder to get it to time to 11:00.
Its a tried and true method.

wished I could....But I do not have a lath....and would prolly make a mess of it with a file

Snakeshot · November 04, 2004, 19:14

Quote:

Originally posted by nordland

wished I could....But I do not have a lath....and would prolly make a mess of it with a file

Have courage my friend.
Take a sanding disk and enlarge the hole until it just fits over the barrel threads. Rotate by hand and check until proper timing is achieved.

rob1 · November 04, 2004, 20:09

Quote:

Originally posted by nordland

wished I could....But I do not have a lath....and would prolly make a mess of it with a file

Nah, pretty hard to screw it up. If I can do it pretty much any blind drunken mentally challenged monkey can do it!

nordland · November 04, 2004, 20:30

Theres something strange about this....I screw the barrel hand tight and I can slide a .006 gape gage between the receiver and the barrel....anyone ever have a barrel bottom out in the receiver....is that possible?...it looks like the barrel is up against the back...and is not even screwed all the way in!

shootist87122 · November 04, 2004, 20:50

You can't get there from 9:00 with an open end wrench and you don't want to try from there even with a barrel vise.

Three Argy's I've done hand timed from 10:30 - 10:45 -- all on DSA receivers & no problems with the breech face.

nordland · November 04, 2004, 20:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Raspeguy
Picture of my barrel vise. Had a rig that clamped on the flats and shoulder diameter but did not like it that well.

Yes that Imbel is binding on the breach face - a not uncommon occurance. My Argies time up by hand to 10:30 to 10:45 on the Imbels that I have. My choice is to modify the receiver rather than the barrel breach face, especially if chrome lined chamber although it is not necessary to face the barrel off that close to the chamber - just enough to clear where it contacts inside the receiver.

Nice B-V....how do you clamp it down?
So whats the fix for a barrel binding on the breech face? the dremel...grind the breech face back...so the barrel has enough room?

nordland · November 04, 2004, 21:16

Quote:

Originally posted by shootist87122
You can't get there from 9:00 with an open end wrench and you don't want to try from there even with a barrel vise.

Three Argy's I've done hand timed from 10:30 - 10:45 -- all on DSA receivers & no problems with the breech face.

Yeah....I hear ya.......From what I read the DSA's always give a generous hand tightening....I am not going to risk slipping off the barrel flats again....this is a brand new looking...all refinish argentine para kit....and I am not gonna risk putting another mark on it....The barrel flats are not smeared like I thought.....just a little scuff mark...Thank God

Court in Fl · November 04, 2004, 21:30

Check out these links for info on the barrel bottoming out.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out

Court in FL.

Court in Fl · November 04, 2004, 21:34

This one to,
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out

Court in FL.

nordland · November 04, 2004, 22:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Court in Fl
This one to,
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out

Court in FL.

Thanks...Court

Radio · November 05, 2004, 01:23

Sounds as if you do indeed have breech face problems. But, putting that aside to focus on the shoulder:

Best scenario: Chuck the barrel into a lathe to clean up the shoulder. You'll get the cleanest and most even surface to torque against the receiver.

Second best: Use a triangular file (so you can get under the barrel threads) doing your absolute Boy Scout best to keep the file FLAT. Use lots of Sharpie marker to keep track of your filing. THEN, use the sanding disc method outlined above top clean up your filing work and produce a (relatively) flat surface on the shoulder. I use 80 grit to start and clean up eventually no finer than 220 (sometimes less). I also use a cleaned-up receiver stub to press that sanding disc FLAT against the barrel shoulder. Nice results for the "non power tool" approach.

Third best: Just the sanding disc. This will take you awhile, Ask Me How I Know. Again a very good idea to use some kind of tool or helper to keep the sanding disc FLAT against the barrel shoulder.

Fourth best: Just a file. This will of course get you results, but the resulting shoulder surface will probably not be as even as through using the above methods, unless your hands are steady as a surgeon's. How many of us are THAT good, I mean, really??

Fifth best: With apologies to Jeter, using a power tool such as the revered Dremel; or, "How to get completely out of control at 10,000 RPM." If your hands are actually steady enough for this method, you already are doing heart transplants or brain surgery, or should be.

--Radio

shootist87122 · November 05, 2004, 06:52

Solve the breech face thingy first and the shoulder second. If you are .006" away now and at 9:00, you may be 10:00+ w/o the breech face bottomed out.

**idsubgun** · November 05, 2004, 08:19

Seeing how you are filing 'cause you don't have a lathe, here's how to do it.

Hold the barrel in your hand with the breech end up. Take your file and lay it flat across the top and file across the face. While you are doing this, rotate the barrel in your hand so you taking equal amounts off all around. Check often as it's easier to take material off then it is to put it back on, although a little too much here isn't a disaster.
The way I do it now is too fire up my belt sander as it has a disc sander on the side and lightly sand it while rotating the barrel. I don't recommend this unless you have some power machine experience under your belt and are familiar with them or you have plenty of money to buy new barrels. A little goes a long way here.

FYI on filing the barrel shoulder. I use a 4" pillar file (bought mine from Brownell's). It has two safe edges and won't dig into the threads. Keep as flat as possible as was mentioned above. Go slow and check often (VERY important here!).

Good luck!

Damn late model Imbel receivers!

**W.E.G.** · November 05, 2004, 08:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Radio
...Second best: Use a triangular file (so you can get under the barrel threads)....

You do NOT need to get under the barrel threads.

repeat
YOU DO NOT NEED TO GET UNDER THE BARREL THREADS.

The portion of the barrel shoulder under the barrel threads DOES NOT contact the receiver face. Simply not possible. This fact is why this tool works.

**W.E.G.** · November 05, 2004, 08:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Radio
[B]...Fifth best: With apologies to Jeter, using a power tool such as the revered Dremel; or, "How to get completely out of control at 10,000 RPM." If your hands are actually steady enough for this method, you already are doing heart transplants or brain surgery, or should be.

Indeed I never have used a dremel on a barrel shoulder. Although, I did use a beefy dremel as the drive for my WECSOG chamber reamer to much success.

**W.E.G.** · November 05, 2004, 08:53

.

nordland · November 05, 2004, 10:16

I Dremeled the breech face and the end of the rails back...I hope I have not turned the receiver into junk or made it unsafe to use.....I wish I could post attachments...I have been doing the receiver chunk and sanding disk method on the shoulders...and at this point it hand tightens to about 10:00....

ratas calientes · November 05, 2004, 10:32

nordland -
Please forgive the shameless plug -

WTS barrel vises

ratas calientes · November 05, 2004, 10:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Raspeguy
Picture of my barrel vise. Had a rig that clamped on the flats and shoulder diameter but did not like it that well.
. . .

Raspeguy - good looking vise you made. Here is a picture of my personal mongo-size vise:

ce · November 05, 2004, 10:50

Tain't no big thing, to wear it down
With a jewelers file, you go to town.
First with an oval, and a lot of love,
That's when foreplay's what you're thinking of.

As you polish her pearl, she begins to give,
And that's when you really start to live,
When she's howling, and getting hot,
Pour it on, give it all you got!

Check it once, and check again,
Keep on checking 'til you're way past ten.
Another polish on the barrel face,
Crank her down, put her in her place!

Sheesh, you guys act like it's never been done, and yer too skeered to try.

nordland · November 05, 2004, 11:19

Quote:

Originally posted by ce
Tain't no big thing, to wear it down
With a jewelers file, you go to town.
First with an oval, and a lot of love,
That's when foreplay's what you're thinking of.

As you polish her pearl, she begins to give,
And that's when you really start to live,
When she's howling, and getting hot,
Pour it on, give it all you got!

Check it once, and check again,
Keep on checking 'til you're way past ten.
Another polish on the barrel face,
Crank her down, put her in her place

nordland · November 05, 2004, 11:48

Quote:

Originally posted by ratas calientes

Raspeguy - good looking vise you made. Here is a picture of my personal mongo-size vise:

Man....Ratas.....thats one helluva barrel vise.....wished you lived next door

nordland · November 05, 2004, 15:05

Well I got the receiver so it would hand tighen to 10:00....then I clamped the barrel flats down in the jaws of my bench vise......put the receiver wrench on the receiver....slid a peice of pipe over the receiver wrench handle......spit....pulled like hell....got to 11:00.........rest for a moment.....then pulled like hell again.......11:30.......then I puckered my asshole and gave it all I had....the hole damn work bench that weighs a ton started to tip

so I stopped and checked....aha...bingo 12:00 or slightly over...

ratas calientes · November 05, 2004, 16:57

Quote:

Originally posted by nordland
. . .
so I stopped and checked....aha...bingo 12:00 or slightly over...

nordland · November 06, 2004, 14:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Raspeguy
The end result.

Darn good job on grinding back the breech face!!

nordland · November 06, 2004, 15:00

Build update.....I am now in the process of using pin-gages and go and no-go gages to determine locking shoulder size.

Radio · November 07, 2004, 03:27

Gary is correct wherein the barrel shoulder under the threads will not contact the receiver, since there IS NO receiver material in that area, being smaller than the thread size. Standard mechanics/physical relationship/etc.

That said, I DO prefer to get under the threads, 1) because it's easier to get the entire thing flat; 2) it's easier when using the sanding disc method; 3) I don't have to worry if the "step" is deep enough; 4) I'm picky about this particular aspect, even though I'm aware that nobody but me will EVER see this little corner of the rifle.

So there.

--Radio

ratas calientes · November 07, 2004, 10:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Raspeguy
Here's my receiver vise made over 20 years ago. Didn't have the benefit of the knowledge base of the falfiles and was thinking along the lines of the barreling mechanism that springfield armory (the original one) used to assemble the M1 rifle. Or was it the M14 that I saw the picture of?

It's adjustable and guided with limited adjustment of the 4 clamping pieces. Use pieces of urethane sheet for protection as I got some of the stuff from one who uses it for brake press forming to protect delicate surfaces from being marred - pretty tough material.

Gorgeous. Now I am jealous. That is the best looking receiver wrench/vise I have ever seen.

A little tough to make and sell for under $50, though.

nordland · November 07, 2004, 20:00

Ha......I wonder How many have done this before?

I barreled my receiver...then realized I had forgotten to put on the barrel...
the H-G ring

Oh well...the barrel came back off...and went back on....
a lot easier the 2nd time

ratas calientes · November 07, 2004, 22:20

Quote:

Originally posted by nordland
Ha......I wonder How many have done this before?
I barreled my receiver...then realized I had forgotten to put on the barrel...
the H-G ring . . .

I do that almost every time. Comes with the territory.

nordland · November 07, 2004, 22:54

Quote:

Originally posted by ratas calientes

I do that almost every time. Comes with the territory.

Yeah....before I removed the barrel...I took a sharpie an made a mark on the barrel and receiver...so it would make it easier to line it up again

November 04, 2004, 17:13	#1
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	Ah dammit.... (IMBEL receiver bottoming out) I had a wrench on my new Argentine para barrel flats and the wrench slipped and smeared the GD barrel flats....damn imbel receiver hand tightened to 9:00..... Last edited by W.E.G.; November 04, 2004 at 22:26.

November 04, 2004, 17:48	#2
Snakeshot Registered FALaholic #: 909 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Non Harry Reid Nevada Posts: 4,044	Time for a barrel vise. I HATE using the flats. Good luck. __________________ "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

November 04, 2004, 18:33	#4
W.E.G. Administrator Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 1211 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 31,052	Maybe. But, why would you want to? Just reduce the barrel shoulder to get it to time to 11:00. Its a tried and true method. __________________ . . . Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

November 04, 2004, 20:50	#9
shootist87122 Registered FALaholic #: 7202 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NM Posts: 5,126	You can't get there from 9:00 with an open end wrench and you don't want to try from there even with a barrel vise. Three Argy's I've done hand timed from 10:30 - 10:45 -- all on DSA receivers & no problems with the breech face. __________________ "So in the Libyan Fable it is told, That once an eagle, stricken with a dart, said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, it is by our own feathers, not others hands, are we now smitten." -Aeschylus

November 05, 2004, 01:23	#15
Radio Registered FALaholic #: 263 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Eastern Washington State Posts: 9,868	Sounds as if you do indeed have breech face problems. But, putting that aside to focus on the shoulder: Best scenario: Chuck the barrel into a lathe to clean up the shoulder. You'll get the cleanest and most even surface to torque against the receiver. Second best: Use a triangular file (so you can get under the barrel threads) doing your absolute Boy Scout best to keep the file FLAT. Use lots of Sharpie marker to keep track of your filing. THEN, use the sanding disc method outlined above top clean up your filing work and produce a (relatively) flat surface on the shoulder. I use 80 grit to start and clean up eventually no finer than 220 (sometimes less). I also use a cleaned-up receiver stub to press that sanding disc FLAT against the barrel shoulder. Nice results for the "non power tool" approach. Third best: Just the sanding disc. This will take you awhile, Ask Me How I Know. Again a very good idea to use some kind of tool or helper to keep the sanding disc FLAT against the barrel shoulder. Fourth best: Just a file. This will of course get you results, but the resulting shoulder surface will probably not be as even as through using the above methods, unless your hands are steady as a surgeon's. How many of us are THAT good, I mean, really?? Fifth best: With apologies to Jeter, using a power tool such as the revered Dremel; or, "How to get completely out of control at 10,000 RPM." If your hands are actually steady enough for this method, you already are doing heart transplants or brain surgery, or should be. --Radio __________________ Train Like You Fight: Second PLace is NOT an Option. --E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II* "You seem to fantasize about me a lot. Maybe you should tell your boyfriend? He could dress up like me or something." --*K.O.A.M.*, November 9th, 2009 "You're better off hoping she don't miss, it's quicker that way." --ce, December 15, 2009

November 04, 2004, 18:24	#3
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	Will them barrel vises slip...say if you tried to go from 9:30 to 12:00 using a cheater bar over your receiver wrench? I was looking at one in brownells.....also was looking at a monster made by..........The R.Banks Extra Heavy Duty Barrel Vise ~ that one looked like it would hold the barrel and not slip....even if you twisted the barrel off in the receiver....big rugged looking thing! Stange thing is.....I screwed one of those old SA.R1 barrels into that receiver....and it hand timed to 11:00.....would have had no trouble installing that barrel...

November 04, 2004, 20:30	#8
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	Theres something strange about this....I screw the barrel hand tight and I can slide a .006 gape gage between the receiver and the barrel....anyone ever have a barrel bottom out in the receiver....is that possible?...it looks like the barrel is up against the back...and is not even screwed all the way in!

November 04, 2004, 21:30	#12
Court in Fl Curio & Relic FALaholic #: 5046 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: South Florida Posts: 3,150	Check out these links for info on the barrel bottoming out. http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out Court in FL.

November 04, 2004, 21:34	#13
Court in Fl Curio & Relic FALaholic #: 5046 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: South Florida Posts: 3,150	This one to, http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...=bottoming+out Court in FL.

November 05, 2004, 06:52	#16
shootist87122 Registered FALaholic #: 7202 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NM Posts: 5,126	Solve the breech face thingy first and the shoulder second. If you are .006" away now and at 9:00, you may be 10:00+ w/o the breech face bottomed out. __________________ "So in the Libyan Fable it is told, That once an eagle, stricken with a dart, said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, it is by our own feathers, not others hands, are we now smitten." -Aeschylus

November 05, 2004, 08:19	#17
idsubgun "Comfortably Numb" Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 3100 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Idaho Posts: 9,185	Seeing how you are filing 'cause you don't have a lathe, here's how to do it. Hold the barrel in your hand with the breech end up. Take your file and lay it flat across the top and file across the face. While you are doing this, rotate the barrel in your hand so you taking equal amounts off all around. Check often as it's easier to take material off then it is to put it back on, although a little too much here isn't a disaster. The way I do it now is too fire up my belt sander as it has a disc sander on the side and lightly sand it while rotating the barrel. I don't recommend this unless you have some power machine experience under your belt and are familiar with them or you have plenty of money to buy new barrels. A little goes a long way here. FYI on filing the barrel shoulder. I use a 4" pillar file (bought mine from Brownell's). It has two safe edges and won't dig into the threads. Keep as flat as possible as was mentioned above. Go slow and check often (VERY important here!). Good luck! Damn late model Imbel receivers! Last edited by idsubgun; November 05, 2004 at 08:29.

November 05, 2004, 10:16	#21
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	I Dremeled the breech face and the end of the rails back...I hope I have not turned the receiver into junk or made it unsafe to use.....I wish I could post attachments...I have been doing the receiver chunk and sanding disk method on the shoulders...and at this point it hand tightens to about 10:00....

November 05, 2004, 10:32	#22
ratas calientes Registered FALaholic #: 1841 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Mexico Posts: 7,817	nordland - Please forgive the shameless plug - WTS barrel vises __________________ Ratas Calientes (Hot Rats) Rats are people too! Last edited by ratas calientes; November 05, 2004 at 10:37.

November 05, 2004, 10:50	#24
ce Registered FALaholic #: 373 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: New Mexico Posts: 5,903	Tain't no big thing, to wear it down With a jewelers file, you go to town. First with an oval, and a lot of love, That's when foreplay's what you're thinking of. As you polish her pearl, she begins to give, And that's when you really start to live, When she's howling, and getting hot, Pour it on, give it all you got! Check it once, and check again, Keep on checking 'til you're way past ten. Another polish on the barrel face, Crank her down, put her in her place! Sheesh, you guys act like it's never been done, and yer too skeered to try.

November 05, 2004, 15:05	#27
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	Well I got the receiver so it would hand tighen to 10:00....then I clamped the barrel flats down in the jaws of my bench vise......put the receiver wrench on the receiver....slid a peice of pipe over the receiver wrench handle......spit....pulled like hell....got to 11:00.........rest for a moment.....then pulled like hell again.......11:30.......then I puckered my asshole and gave it all I had....the hole damn work bench that weighs a ton started to tip so I stopped and checked....aha...bingo 12:00 or slightly over...

November 06, 2004, 15:00	#30
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	Build update.....I am now in the process of using pin-gages and go and no-go gages to determine locking shoulder size.

November 07, 2004, 03:27	#31
Radio Registered FALaholic #: 263 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Eastern Washington State Posts: 9,868	Gary is correct wherein the barrel shoulder under the threads will not contact the receiver, since there IS NO receiver material in that area, being smaller than the thread size. Standard mechanics/physical relationship/etc. That said, I DO prefer to get under the threads, 1) because it's easier to get the entire thing flat; 2) it's easier when using the sanding disc method; 3) I don't have to worry if the "step" is deep enough; 4) I'm picky about this particular aspect, even though I'm aware that nobody but me will EVER see this little corner of the rifle. So there. --Radio __________________ Train Like You Fight: Second PLace is NOT an Option. --E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II* "You seem to fantasize about me a lot. Maybe you should tell your boyfriend? He could dress up like me or something." --*K.O.A.M.*, November 9th, 2009 "You're better off hoping she don't miss, it's quicker that way." --ce, December 15, 2009

November 07, 2004, 20:00	#33
nordland Registered FALaholic #: 10388 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: MI. Posts: 390	Ha......I wonder How many have done this before? I barreled my receiver...then realized I had forgotten to put on the barrel... the H-G ring Oh well...the barrel came back off...and went back on.... a lot easier the 2nd time Last edited by nordland; November 07, 2004 at 20:05.

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