Gun cleaning - accuracy & my experience

[Shootability]

For many years I have been a thorough cleaner - after each session I shoot I would clean the barrel until all the copper was out and the barrel was clean - Hoppes, Sweets, JB paste whatever it took.

My range mates jumped all over me telling me that I was wrong - wasting money, time and barrels with all that cleaning.

So I tried an experiment - my AR15 with a BM heavy barrel - chrome lined - for 1000 rounds I just cleaned with a bore snake - no brush - no rod - just a bore snake and some clp and whatever q-tips could reach in the action

Results - reliability held fine - never a problem there. Accuracy went from 1 inch and under at 100 yards to 3 inches and under at 100 yards - I called a halt to the experiment and went back and cleaned - took quite a while. Shot it with a clean barrel - groups .75 or less.

Do you think this is just .223 or what? I do not clean FALs that aggressively but pretty well - they do not seem as prone to accuracy drop off as the .223.

Anyone else carry out an experiment like this?

[Right Side Up @ 1000 MPH]

Yeah, I've had the same thing happen. How quick it happens depends on the intensity of the cartridge (grains of powder burned) and the type of powder burned (amount of fouling).

If you let them go too long, a carbon ring will form just ahead of the throat. This really hurts accuracy. It can be very hard to remove too. An abrasive like JB or RemClean bore cleaner is the only way I know to remove it. I JB or RemClean about every 300 rounds in my real accurate guns. My FAL's I don't worry about.

[W.E.G.]

At the time I shot this group, the barrel had about 3000 rounds through it with never a brush.

All I ever used was Hoppe's #9 Copper solvent on two or three patches every couple hundred rounds or so.

Ammo used for the "about 3000 rounds" was Sierra Matchking with moly and wax coating, Vihta Vuouri powder.

Rifle was AR15 with Krieger stainless match-grade barrel and IRON sights.

Group was shot prone position, single-feed with iron sights, and military leather sling.

These are .223 bulletholes, and the pic is real close to actual size.
You be the judge of whether this is "good accuracy."
It was good enough to win the match that day (a few years ago).



This barrel now has about 4000 rounds through it. It still shot like a house on fire at Camp Perry earlier this month. I could be a better shooter. But, all my shots were "on call" during the 600 yard portion of the Rumbold match.

I've just about used up most of my moly-cote ammo. I'll soon be switching (for convenience) to non-moly match ammo loaded by a vendor. I'll judge whether it gives "good accuracy." Although I will be giving the bore just a few strokes with a brush and copper solvent, followed by a couple patches when I start using non-moly ammo. The bore now shows some "alligatoring," and wax and carbon accumulation in the throat. Doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect on the accuracy required for high power rifle matches. The muzzle area still looks as tight as the day it was installed.

[W.E.G.]

I think the amount of fouling and accuracy-loss you may experience has a great deal to do with the quality of the barrel used for the test.

[Shootability]

I actually thought I was rigging the test in favor of no cleaning - I thought the chrome barrel .223 AR15 would foul less than any other, but it did not prove true. My chrome lined Argentine FAL fouls less than my non-chrome Imbel FAL, but the Argentine is less accurate than the Imbel clean or fouled.

[yovinny]

IMHO with using match barrels and bench guns, "accuracy" drops off enough to be noticeable after 20-40rds depending on the barrel.

"Accuracy" means many different things to different people. From shooting an average under .200" for 3-5shot groups at 100yds, to hitting a 6' bull at 1000yds to maybe ringing the 24" club gong at 200yds.

Most ALL of the most accurate barrel manufacturers (bench rest) recomend cleaning every 20rds or so, to preserve the life of the barrel. Most ALL bench shooters do, but there only firing a limited amount of rounds and striving for the utmost in accuracy.

Some fire semi-auto's using military mass produced, chrome lined barrels and burn them out from rapid firing. Most of these barrels would be extremely lucky to put 5 rounds under 1" anyway.

Somewhere in the middle of all this is a happy medium. I baby by bench guns, dont ever shoot the hunters enough to really worry about and dont really care about the FAL's and AR's I clean them when I get to them, barrels are cheap for them anyway, you'r not dealing with a $600. match barrel.
Just my $.02, Cheers. YOOO VINNY

One more thought, improper cleaning technique and tools have probably ruined almost as many barrels as have been truly shotout. Those sectioned steel military cleaning rods come to mind, used from the muzzle with little thought of there consequence. Common knowledge of proper cleaning techniques has come far since I started shooting and is much better today then it ever was. Anyone who invests enough to buy an "accurate" rifle, would do well to learn how to properly maintain it and invest in the correct tools.

[Sgt_Gold]

Glen Zediker is one of the best service rifle shooters in the country. In his book 'THE COMPETITIVE AR15', he goes into how he didn't clean the barrel of his target AR for an entire season. Accuracy is affected by numerous factors such as barrel material and type of ammunition. I clean the barrel of my target AR three or four times a year, but never befor a leg match because the zero will change after cleaning and leg matches don't allow sighters. YMMV

[splattermatic]

so if you guys all clean so much and it seems to apear that accuracy is the best..
i must have several guns that must have terrible barrels.
my bushie v match will not shoot a decent group after a good cleaning til after 20 rounds or so is through it ??? why??
after cleaning it shoots honest 2 to 3 inch groups, after the first 10 shots, it starts to come down to about an inch, after 20 or plus or minus some,, it shoots under 3/4's of an inch if i do my part,, most times it shoots one ragged hole and a 1/2" or less....

same goes for my 8mm mag, after a serious cleaning (which i have only done one and it has been just recently) i might as well stand in a barn and shoot at the broadside.. i am still testing to see how many shots it takes to get back to the 1" groups it shoots when dirty..

i have a 660 in 308 and another remington 700 in 30/06 that shoot like crap after cleaning...

after i clean and shoot til my groups come in i never clean again,, i also shoot almost daily (brian in mn can verify as i call him and rub it in) so far i do not see accuracy suffering and i have many rounds down the bores of many of my toys..

guess the degree of roughness determines what level of accuracy you get..

but 3/4" to one hole groups sure does just fine for hunting..

here's my 200 buck pawn shop remington adl 30/06 that looks like it got drug behind a truck. i shoot winchester 180 gr silvertip cxp3's and it wears a straight leupold 6x...
i know that i pulled the odd flyer up and right...
not bad for 100 yards and a straight 6x i think

[splattermatic]

here are the last 2 rounds i had with me from the same 30/06,, i need to keep a journal of all my stuff as i cant remember what means what in each scope for adjustments.
this is how far the group moved after turning the scope left 1 line, (smooth turning turets)..
1 line equals@ 2" or so.. at 100 yards...i had just recently put this scope back on after i took it off and had a 4-12 leupold on it..
stayed real close to zero, and i moved it back right a 1/2 of a line.. will test again, before using it for hunting...

[splattermatic]

this is a target of my 8mm mag after a good cleaning the 5 shots in a "pattern" are it and the 3 in the circle are from my remington 660 in 308, i don't know how many shots are down it's bore,, i lost count.. i recently realigned the scope so it was straight with the bore,, it was canted a bit..

[splattermatic]

this is a "normal" group from my 8 mag when dirty

[Shootability]

I wonder if the depth of the rifling makes a difference - I have heard this speculated. My military 8mm have very deep grooves, but my 223 really has very shallow grooves - wonder if the deep grooved rifles like a dirty bore in the sense that copper and fouling actually smooth the bore and make it a better shooter - any thoughts on this. It ties in well with spat and his 30 cal rifles. My FALs do not really seem to care much one way or the other. I have only the one .223 so I do not have enough variety to make a real call on this.

[yovinny]

Splat, read this from the Shillen Barrel site, said much better than I could do. From a macufacturer of hand lapped match barrels for longer than I've been shooting, 30+ years.

CLEANING;
We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside. Here's our technique: With the bore guide and the brass brush on the cleaning rod, apply the solvent to the brush by dipping it in the bottle or squirting a few drops on the brush. Slide the bore guide up over the brush and insert the bore guide into the chamber with a twisting motion. Push the brush through the barrel until it comes out the end of the muzzle. Now pull the brush back into the chamber guide. This is one "cycle". Make one cycle for each bullet fired, then apply more
solvent to the brush and repeat this procedure. Now, fold or cut the patch for a snug, not tight, fit. Push the the first patch all the way through the bore and out the muzzle. As you draw the rod back, the patch should fall off. Put on another patch and push it towards the muzzle until you can feel it touch your finger placed over the muzzle. Then draw the patch back to the chamber and push it once more out the end of the muzzle so that it drops off. Repeat this with one more patch and you are finished. If you are through shooting for the day, lightly wet a patch with a light viscosity machine oil to prevent or retard rust. Push this patch through the bore. Let it drop out the muzzle, and you are done.

[splattermatic]

amen !!!!

[Right Side Up @ 1000 MPH]

Gary and Splatter, I wish my barrels behaved as yours!

Splatter, my rifles always group the best from a clean barrel with one fouling shot fired to get rid of any residual solvent and lay down some fresh carbon fouling.

I used to think the carbon ring thing was something the benchrest guys dreamed up because they were so anal about everything they did. My first accurate rifle was a Remington 700 that I had a Shilen barrel put on. I learned a LOT about what constituted an accurate rifle, and an accurate reloading process on this rifle. It quit shooting after several hundred rounds. I couldn't figure it out. I had the gun down to where it would shoot consistent .4"s if I paid close attention to the wind flags. I checked everything. The bedding. The scope mounts. Replaced the scope with another one. I finally went and bought a jar of JB and tried it, concentrating in the throat area. That fixed it! I now do that process every few hundred rounds, again, concentrating in throat area, where the carbon fouling stacks up so much.

Cheers!