remington 870 break in?

[berford]

I just purchased a remington 870 pump. I took it apart, and cleaned and lubed it prior to shooting it. When I took it out to shoot, I had some problems. Sometimes after firing it I had difficulty ejecting or chambering a shell. Sometimes after I had fired it, it would not eject the shell, it appeared to be stuck. After some fiddeling around, the shell would eject. Sometimes the shell would eject just fine, but when I tried to chamber the next shell, it would stick, and I would have to fiddle with it to get it to chamber the shell. Sometimes it would work perfectly chambering and ejecting like it should. Do you think that this gun just needs to be broken in, or is there something wrong with it. Is it possible that it just dislikes the ammo I am feeding it. The ammo is cheap winchester dove loads. If anyone has any experience with this please let me know. I dont want to make a potential problem worse by keeping on shooting the gun. Thanks,

Berford

[mcculver5]

Is this a new 870?

If so, take it back. FTF and FTE is not acceptable. I've never heard of someone having this kind of problem with an 870.

All ammo should work just fine. Especialy "cheap" dove loads. When you stripped and cleaned, did you take off any springs?

In the countless thousands of shell I've cycled through my old 870 I can remember 2 problems.

1. A wad that got stuck in the barrel (Federal factory ammo) ,; not the gun's fault.

2. I double clutched on a pump and put two shells in the receiver which caused a jam; my error.

BTW you clean and 870?

I'll look into that.

[legion489]

Got to second that. Never heard of an 870 that didn't work, including one that was buried in pig shit for over a year until the farmer cleaned out the barn and found it again. The stock was gone (no wood left at all, eated by the pigs or rotted off) and the outside metal was pretty rough, but cleaned up/out it worked!

When you took it apart, are you sure you got everything back in properly? No "extra" springs or other parts?

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[SoManyGun'sSoLittleTime]

I had a problem like that was when i first started reloading for my 870.
try some different ammo if that don't work i would take it back

[Adirondack1]

I work about 50 yards from where they're put together here in Ilion, I'll ask one of the gunsmiths that assembles them tonight.

Sounds to me like there might be some crud or a metal shaving/burr under the extractor plunger.

I'd take the gun apart again and douche the extractor area with Remclean or carb choke cleaner and work the extractor by hand a few dozen times. then lube her with CLP, ( that's what we use in final assembly)
do this first,and if you have anymore probs after that PM me or post here and I'll give you someone to call in the plant , you can send it back and we'll get her up and running for you!

[Snakeshot]

What Adirondack1 said and...

Check for any bits of crud or shavings under the shell latches. Get in there with a long skinny pointy thing and dig around. That could also easily cause the symptoms you describe.

[gunplumber]

There is no such thing as "break-in period" on guns. It is a bullshit term invented by gunwriter whores to justify a piece-of-shit DEFECTIVE UNIT froma major advertiser..

Sure, any mechanical device will smooth up with use as micrtoscopic engagement surfaces hone together. but there is a difference between amoothing out and not working at all.

There are certain things you don't do (heavy towing, etc) with a newq car engine - but you would not accept "new car syndrome" if nothing happened when you turned the key.

Gun writer whores have hurt our industry by excusing poor quality as "new gun syndrome" and trying to make it sound normal. It is not normal, it is a defect.\

Okay - that being said, Are you using factory new ammunition of a type and quality appropriate for the gun? Did you reassemble after cleaning correctly?

Did you change anything else?

Are you trying to shoot 3" shells? Despite Remingtons claims, I have always had difficluty with 3" shells.

Also, what brand? European roll-crimp ammo is longer than US star crimp, even if both are "2-3/4"

[Bwana John]

I have seen 870's (3 of them)do exactly what you discribe, especally the "Express" varity when new. Kind of a action bar binding, sharp edges on parts not unmating properly kind of feel. Try to use better pump-gun tequnique, pump back strait in one fluid desisive movement, follow thru on backstroke to eject decisively, and return pump strait forward decisively untill relocked back up. The gun will "shoot in" with more rounds, try light loads to break in, and concentrate on tequnique. I never saw this on older 870's but almost every newer one I have shot did this to one degree or another. Try a Win 1200/1300 pump for a really nice pumpimg feel (almost reloads itself).

[aleph]

lately the 870 express new guns are pretty stiff. i found some gnarly edges on the bolt carrier that i stoned smooth where the carrier rides over the hammer to recock. once i cleaned it up the smothness got better and it still is nice and tight. look for the forearm clearance on the pump stroke the wood sometimes will bind against the reciever. making it seem like a jammed shell

[familyman357]

All of the above posts are good, but do yourself a favor:
check the easiest possibility first.

Since you've only tried one load (cheap Winchester dove loads), buy another brand (like cheap Remington or Federal dove loads) and run those through your 870. Sometimes a bad batch of ammo makes it out of the factory. If the 870 hiccups on the different ammo, only then would I start looking for problems with the 870.

[berford]

Thank-you so much for all of the replies. Shortly after I wrote my first post on this topic and before I had any replies I went back out and shot the gun again. Over all the gun shot better but not perfect by any means. It still had times where it would bind, but it did not seem to be as often. I noticed that I have a tendancy to pull the gun in against my shoulder with the hand that holds the pump action. I found that if I did not do this and relaxed the forhand that it did not bind as often. I also scrounged through my ammo and found five remington dove loads. These fired very nicely, but all I had was five shells to go on. I spoke with "the old man" at work tonight who has years and years of experience with guns and he said that the cheap winchester loads have a tendency to expand more after being fired which can cause problems like I am having. Like some of you, he recomended that I try another brand of ammo.
I will take the gun apart in the morning and check in for burrs, and then go to the store and buy some new ammo (not winchester) and see what happens. The gun was very easy to break down and put back together. Are there any things that I should watch out for when I do this though that could cause problems? The gun seems to be idiot proof, but then again . . . .
Thanks again for the replies, I will be posting again shortly with more info.

Berford

[Adirondack1]

A little insight on how we build guns:

ALL Remington barrels, rifle and shotgun are tested by either magnaflux or eddie current crack detection before being built. (something that other manufacturers DON'T DO!)

When built, all of Remington's guns are cycled with "Dummy" rounds several times before they leave the gunsmith's hands.

(our employee number is placed on the build tag, so they know exactly who built what, and we are held accountable for what we let go off our bench.)

Years ago, we had our own stamps that we would put on the barrel of each gun we built.

They then go to the gallery to be shot with special uploaded "Proof" loads.

They then go to the the Inspection/Pack area where they're checked once again for headspace and cycled before being put into a box with accessories and shipped to the warehouse.

The warehouse then pulls a certain number of guns from each shipment for audit purposes (I don't know the exact number, just that they do) they then check these samples for fit, function, and tear down a few to make sure that we put them together properly.

Anywhere in this system, if a gun suffers a malfunction, or something was overlooked, they go right back to the smith's bench for repairs.

If your particular gun has problems, then either something in this multi level system broke down, afterall we are human, and not perfect.

or

There might be some metal burr in the extractor plunger interface or a broken spring that didn't surface during cycling with dummies, or proof loads.

or

the gun may have picked some debris from the packaging such as small bits of foam or cardboard.

or

substandard ammo, dirt , grime, other environmental factors

or

user error?

I do disagree with Gunplumer slightly, there is such a thing as a break-in period with new guns, I don't consider say any good quality mod 1911 pistol worthy of being reliable for self defense till I've personally hand cycled the action several hundred times, and fired at least 150-200 rounds thru it for reliabilty purposes. (I then test with my defensive ammo several mags worth)

I also do a function check with any "new" firearm I purchase, I bring it home, familiarize myself with the design, or have someone knowlegable with that particular firearm, teach me how to break it down to armorer's level, clean, and PROPERLY lubricate it.

If you are a benchrest shooter, you know there is also a break in period for barrels for target type accuracy. Some varmint hunters take this into consideration also, but most of the hunting/shooting public need not worry too much about anything but practical accuracy under field conditions.

Reliabilty and practical accuracy out of the box is a good thing, 80-99 percent of the time this is the case, but like any mass-produced product,(read one that we can spend only so much time on each unit producing) there are exceptions because of mitagating circumstances such as a bad vendor or internal part being used,wrong installation technique, training of new gunsmiths, or damage in shipping/storage.

I think most Gunsmiths would give you a similar answer if not they're either superhumans or liars!

[gunplumber]

Reliabilty and practical accuracy out of the box is a good thing, 80-99 percent of the time this is the case, but like any mass-produced product, there are exceptions because of mitagating circumstances such as a bad vendor or internal part being used,wrong installation technique, training of new gunsmiths, or damage in shipping/storage.

I think most Gunsmiths would give you a similar answer if not they're either superhumans or liars!

No, I stand by my original statement and reassert that any rationalizations to the contrary are just that - bullshit mealy-mouthed excuses.

A gun either works properly from the moment the box is opened or it doesn't.

Open the box, and you should be able to use it immediately. Thank God you didn't need to use it immediately to defend yourself or your family.

Are defects that through piss-poor quality control don't get caught? Sure. I have screwed up myself on occasion. But it is a screw-up. A defect. Not a "break-in" period. And of course you should field test a new gun for several hundred rounds before using it for anything important - not because you should have to, but because of the chance your manufacturer did a piss-poor, slovenly job, as was the probable case with this guy's 870.


If your gun has a rough action, it should have been corrected before it ever left the assembler's bench.

80%? Are you out of your mind? Thats a 20% fuckyup ratre.

[Adirondack1]

Gunplumber, how many guns do you have to produce a day?
I'm aware of your reputation for quality firearms, yet you aren't a maijor manufacturer are you? I probably build as many in a day as you do in a week! BECAUSE I HAVE TO!

YOU sir are a CUSTOM GUNSMITH, NOT a PRODUCTION GUNSMITH!

I have a production goal for each day, and try my best to do right by the people who shoot my guns.... most day's I have ZERO repairs, some days I have 2-3 for minor things like marred floorplates or mags that need adjustment.

If I have a problematic action I scrap it, a bad floorplate, it goes back for re-fitting.

I pride myself on the fact I would buy any gun I build, but like you say, sometimes we screw up.

ANY gun that Remington manufacturers is guarenteed, and if you have a bad one, send it back for repair or replacement....

I'm not going to get into a flamewar with you over this, I posted an honest representation of what my employer does to reduce customer complaints.

You and I have bumped heads on some things on this board, and others off such as my patent pending extractor removal tool for the FAL. That you wanted me to supply you with a $2000.00 "consultation fee" for your input, because your paranoid (adjust tinfoil hat here) and wouldn't sign a simple non-disclosure statement on, even though all the other smiths on this board did without complaining I might add.

You tend to flame anyone who doesn't have your exact same outlook on the mechanics of the universe.

And some who think your the GURU of all things that shoot will flame on... I'm a GUNSMITH not a production manager or a company spokesman...take your complaints up with them!

If you can see thru your own bullshit a way for a multi-million dollar company to better their production rate , and eliminate all quality control problems at Remington, then I'll send you a friggin employment applicaton! Until you sign my paycheck, I'll take any of your comments with a grain of salt

PS the 80-99% figure was based on an internal audit of ALL products, and when it was done Remington was setting up it's new barrel shop, one night alone we scrapped 800 shotgun barrels that customers will never see because the vent ribs were made from the wrong steel! (the vendor was replaced later that week!)Most defects are caught at the plant because we do have excellent QC we will pull shotguns from the box for having vent ribs off by as little as 10 thousnaths! , M700 buttplates with the wrong type screws etc. so the customer would never notice some defects! WE DO!

Yes, I know that some guns can and do get thru our checks, but more often than not we catch them in the sampling in the in-house lab before they are shipped out of the plant to the warehouse.

[berford]

Well, no shooting today, God decided to give us some much needed rain. The rain is starting to taper off, but work is calling. Hopefully tomarrow I will be able to get out and shoot some. I was able to get some different shells and am anxious to see if it makes a difference. I took the gun apart again and inspected it and lubed it expecially around the extractor area. I did not see any burrs to speak of. Upon putting it back together I cycled several shells through it. I have noticed that if I am a little sloppy in racking the slide that the shell gums up a little. I am beginning to think that my problems are a combination of me not being familiar with the gun, and lousy ammo. If I rack the slide crisply with no pauses I have much fewer problems. I guess we will see what the morning brings. Thanks again for all the posts. Hopefully everyone can work out their differences in a civilized way. I will update tomarrow.

Berford

[Nickle]

Hey GunPlumber

Build many match grade M1911A1's or Bench Guns? They HAVE to be broken-in if they're made correctly. So ease up on your blanket statement about guns not needing breaking in. Your intent is correct, though, just watch the blanket statement. Shotguns and hunting guns shouldn't need to be broken-in. I also agree, most gun-writers are IDIOTS that can't find real work. (Dave Brennan and Jeff Cooper are exceptions.)

As far as Remington being a stand-up company, let me spin all of you a yarn from my earlier days in the "gun business", about 1969 or 1970.

A customer and his buddy walk into the shop (my father's shop, where I worked after school and weekends). The customer is carrying a Model 700 Remington, 7mm Rem Mag. Says the bolt handle broke off (they're silver soldered). I look at the gun, and sure enough, the bolt handle is knocked off. I ask the guy what happened. He says the 2 of them were shooting some of his handloads, and the guns kicked pretty hard. The Remington wouldn't open, so he got a hammer and tried to beat it open, but knocked the bolt handle off. His buddy was shooting a Savage 110, Left handed. (I'll tell you about that one below.) The load the guy was using was a few grains OVER max. So I asked to see some of the handloads. I pulled a bullet from one and weighed the powder. Well, it was the weight he said it was, but it wasn't 4831. IT WAS AL-5 SHOTGUN POWDER. No wonder the gun jammed. We sent the gun back to Remington for the guy (with an explanation), expecting him to have to pay for the repairs. Lo and behold, the gun comes back, shipping paid, no charge, with the old barreled action and a letter estimating the pressure as 175,000 PSI. Now let me tell you, Remington had NO OBLIGATION to do this, but they did. That's typical for them.

As to the guy's Savage? It was blown apart into 26 pieces, the back halve of the bolt failed, broke off and went into the guys face. Savage didn't make it right. The guy bought a new Model 700, as I remember. He was a GE employee, and I remember seeing a newsletter from there showing it.

[gunplumber]

Build many match grade M1911A1's or Bench Guns? They HAVE to be broken-in if they're made correctly.

Sure - and if its not BEFORE the gun leaves the manufacturer, its called "shitty work"

One of my customers won a $1700 1911 from a major manufacturer. It came covered with lapping compound. Oh yeah - its the CUSTOMER's job to lap in the barrel? Bull$hit. Thats called crappy QC.

Gunplumber, how many guns do you have to produce a day?
I'm aware of your reputation for quality firearms, yet you aren't a maijor manufacturer are you? I probably build as many in a day as you do in a week! BECAUSE I HAVE TO!

Really, is how terribly difficult your job is the "official" response to a self-audited 20% defect rate?

How your management may or may not push production quotas is absolutely irrelevant. It may "explain" why your company turns out so many defects (one out of 5? You have to be kidding), but it is still inexcusable. "I was in a hurry 'cause my mean boss was yelling at me to go faster" Would that be an acceptable "reason" for your new computer not to work? Or a new car not to start? Or any other product? NO Of course not. So don't try to rationalize shitty QC in the gun industry by waxing poetic about how tough your job quotas are.

Again, defects happen, but it is apologists like yourself and the gunwriter whores who try to make "new gun syndrome" requiring a "break-in period" into an industry standard rather than an embarrassment.

You and I have bumped heads on some things on this board, and others off such as my patent pending extractor removal tool for the FAL. That you wanted me to supply you with a $2000.00 "consultation fee" for your input, because your paranoid (adjust tinfoil hat here) and wouldn't sign a simple non-disclosure statement on, even though all the other smiths on this board did without complaining I might add.

And congratulations to you. One could equally turn the "paranoid tinfoil hat" back on you - for requiring a confidentiality agreement. Its called "experience" and its something I happen to have a bit of in both confidentiality agreements and in field testing new products. And you are the only one to want a "confidentiality agreement." Sure - okay, no prob. But if my word isn't any good to you, my signature in this case will cost you $2000.

I like remington. I own and work on 870s 700s, 600s, and occasionally 40xs. But all your rationalizing doesn't change the fact that a rouch action is a DEFECT that should never have happened, not a customer responsiibility to "break in" the gun because the manufacturer was sloppy

[Nickle]

Huh, funny that you'd accuse the BEST bolt action gunsmith in the last 20 years to be doing "shiity work". Ever heard of a guy called Seeley Masker (from Pleasantville, NY)? He was a friend of mine, he's gone now, died probably 10 years ago. I used to shoot with him. Adirondack1 's probably heard of him. Most Bench Rest Shooters have heard his name. Well, he wouldn't break-in your new barrel for you. Know why? Cause it's your job, unless you want to tack on a few hundred dollars for labor to shoot the gun 50-100 times, with a specific cleaning ritual that I won't go into here. And that's after paying over $1500 for the gun work. To break one in takes about 4-6 hours or more (I take 2 days). What you going to charge your customers for that?

Why don't you come down off your high horse for a while, and quit trying to show us what you don't know? You're said to be a great FAL smith. Probably very true. I'll give you credit for that. But NOONE know's it all. Not YOU, not ME. My knowledge is very narrow, but in my areas (of expertise), I'm probably as good as you are in yours. We should stay in our areas of expertise.

About your customer that got the $1700 M1911A1 w/ lapping compound on it? You're right on that one, he got SCREWED. I wouldn't pay that much for a custom M1911A1. I work with a guy that's #1 or #2 for entire Army shooting an M1911A1. His gun isn't pretty, and it's not worth near $1700. Shoot's fair, though.

[gunplumber]

your inability to differntiate between optional "breaking in" a new match barrel for optimal barrel life and "breaking in" a shotgun or pistol that WONT GO BANG without it leaves me with no common-frame of reference with which to discuss the issue. Perhaps after you comprehend the difference between "do this for smoother feel and maximum accuracy " and "gun don't work" there will be something to discuss.

I don't give a rats ass how great a gunsmith someone claims to be. If a gun gets to the customer and don't go "bang" its called a DEFECT.

When we make "perfection" our objective, we have a target that we won't always meet, but we can strive to obtain. When we make "defects are the customer's job to fix" as our objective, then it should not be suprising when we do not often reach past it.

I am amazed at the lengths some of you go to try to justify poor work. It is the essence of the Communist system to equate medicrity with excellence. The "good enough is good enough " attitude is what is turning America into a second rate country.

[cliffy109]

Okay, okay okay... lemme try and play peacemaker here.

Words like "junk" "failure" and "defect" are subjective terms. What is junk on a $2000 over and under can be quite reasonable on a $200 pump. The Express is made to a different standard than the Wingmaster and the difference is obviously in the finishing. I own one of each and I can say that the Express is an excellent shotgun, but did require a bit of use to get the burrs smoothed down. Does that mean the Express is junk or defective? Hell no. It means I was a cheap SOB and chose to spend half the money and live with a break-in.

I have different expectations of a Wingmaster. It should be smooth and trouble free from day one. It should be free of cosmetic defects and should run like a Swiss watch. It is the smoothest pump gun I've ever laid my hands on and I can cycle the action and return to target nearly as fast as most folks with a semi-auto. There's a reason it costs more.

Gunplummer is a perfectionist. That much is obvious. He also has the uncanny ability to piss people off very quickly who disagree with him. I've been accused of the same thing (not here of course) and often, it was a biting sense of irony that was mistaken for outright hostility. I would hope that this is the case here as well.

[Nickle]

I'm not justifying poor work. You made a blanket statement and I called you on it. No different than the BS you had to take on the deal with saltdux. He was wrong then. And "breaking in a match barrel" ISN'T optional in a competition Bench Rest Gun. I think I qualified my statement earlier.

Shotguns and hunting guns shouldn't need to be broken-in.

Was Remington wrong? Probably. I won't sell a gun that I haven't checked out, myself. It's very bad for business, but you already know that, as you don't get many complaints in that area, do you?

Tell you what, I don't tell you how to build FAL's. Why don't you reciprocate for a change?

As far as Seeley claiming to be a great gunsmith? HE never did that I ever saw, OTHERS claimed he was great, including me. I built my own, and his work could whip my work easily.

The "good enough is good enough " attitude is what is turning America into a second rate country.

I'm with you on that!

[gunplumber]

I'm not justifying poor work. You made a blanket statement and I called you on it.


AAAAARRRRGH! This isn't Going Anywhere. You "called me" on something I never said. Because words have meaning and must also be taken in context. By "breaking in" I was referring to the gun-writer whore terminology for desperately shooting a gun that does not work properly out-of-the-box in the hopes that somehow it will end up working after a few hundred rounds. I did not mean "breaking in" a match barrel by repeated shooting and cleaning to micro-hone the lands and grooves and pores to potentially increase barrel life and maximize accuracy potential. Nor did I mean "breaking in" to car to steal the radio.,

But in any case, I said my piece, and its worth exactly what you paid for it .. .

[mrbonecrusher]

I got a Remmy 870 Express a couple of years ago myself. Had the same problem as noted above. The action would bind on occasion when pulling on the fore end. It was caused by the action bar end having a bit of a roughness where the piece had been cut out of raw material. Took me 10 minutes to fix but the attention to details like that is where the problem lays. It wasn't broken and after 400 rounds it did not smooth itself out. It had PMC, the cheap Winchester stuff from Wally World and a bunch of slugs shot through it and except for full power slug and 00 loads it would bind 1 shot in every 5, every time. Different times with different round counts. I put up with it for 400 rounds thinking that it would smooth itself out. When it didn't I attacked it myself with a small fine file until the end of the action arm was smooth and the action has run clean ever since. I would guess that is the price we pay for being cheap skate consumers. Instead of buying a Wingmaster I went the cheap route and bought an Express. I would put a lot of the quality problems on us as the consumer demanding that the price comes down or else. Like machinery, Gunplumber, have you got any new made in America mills or lathes any of the stuff that we (the US people) used to make here? I not slamming or flaming it's just damn hard to afford an American lathe or milling machine if it were brand new. So instead we by stuff made in Taiwan or god knows where and put up with it's poor quality because it was affordable. It would sure be nice to go back to 1950-1960 when American work meant quality. Now it's all about production quota's and a lot of it is our making.
OK fingers in the resting position and.... rest.
Edited due to crappy sentence. No content was harmed during the editing.

[gunplumber]

So instead we by stuff made in Taiwan or god knows where and put up with it's poor quality because it was affordable. It would sure be nice to go back to 1950-1960 when American work meant quality. Now it's all about production quota's and a lot of it is our making.
OK fingers in the resting position and.... rest.

Well, I bought a Taiwanese bridgeport clone. Not only was it 1/4 of the price, but arguably, it was of equal or better quality than the bridgeport.

There used to be a time when US made meant expensive, but high quality. Now its not so sure. I buy tooling from Germany or Japan if I am looking for quality, and Taiwan if I need best value, and China if quality doesn't matter so much.

Only time will tell if the Mainland's takeopver of Taiwan will affect quality.

Its kindof funny, I tripped up a Remington rep at the shotshow over the express vs police issue.

He claimed the difference was not only the finish, but the number of quality and safety checks. I asked what safety checks did they NOT perform on the express, and how that affected liability - and just got stutters. The difference appears to be two springs and no dimples, but I can't believe the lawyers would let a company have a safety check available and deliberately choose not to use it on one group of guns.

I bought a 700 varmit several years ago, and the extactor was lying in the box next to the bolt.

Some of the cost-cutting measures are in materials. But even though I prefer the aluminum to the plastic, I really can't find any fault with the plastic - it has less friction, more corrosion resistant, lighter weight, and stronger - in as much as a drop on the trigger guard will flex it, ratehr than crack it.

[NoNotAgain]

Originally posted by gunplumber

Well, I bought a Taiwanese bridgeport clone. Not only was it 1/4 of the price, but arguably, it was of equal or better quality than the bridgeport.

There used to be a time when US made meant expensive, but high quality. Now its not so sure. I buy tooling from Germany or Japan if I am looking for quality, and Taiwan if I need best value, and China if quality doesn't matter so much.

Some of the cost-cutting measures are in materials. But even though I prefer the aluminum to the plastic, I really can't find any fault with the plastic - it has less friction, more corrosion resistant, lighter weight, and stronger - in as much as a drop on the trigger guard will flex it, ratehr than crack it.

Mark

What type of Taiwanese mill did you purchase for $3250?

You can purchase a "NEW" Bridgeport "J" head mill with chrome ways for $12,400 from MSC. Add another $2500 for a digital and your set to go.

http://www.mscdirect.com/PDF.process?pdf=1410

Lagun Republic (a Polish made knee mill) used to be available with chrome ways, but got dropped from production because most businesses wanted a cheap mill.

Check the price for a used 1990-1994 Bridgeport and you can pay almost as much for the used mill as a new one sells for.

I whole heartly agree on German tools, Albrecht keyless drill chucks are the best. Kurt vises (USA made) hold up to repeated abuse.

As for plastic trigger guards, you can keep those to yourself.

I have an old Mossberg 22 target rifle that had a broken trigger guard that was replaced three times before I machined a aluminum one to replace it. Plastics don't like solvents, and I clean my guns, so it's only a matter of time before it's replacement time.

[CraigS]

Berford
Might be off-topic by now, but I have a similar problem with an 870. I think I have it traced to a shell latch (please correct here if necessary) which is staked to the inside of the receiver, or is supposed to be. It's been a while since I've fooled with it, but I remember it falling out (shouldn't happen) when I disassembled the gun. Maybe the staking on yours isn't holding, allowing it to wobble around binding things up.

Craig

[Adirondack1]

Originally posted by CraigS
Berford
Might be off-topic by now, but I have a similar problem with an 870. I think I have it traced to a shell latch (please correct here if necessary) which is staked to the inside of the receiver, or is supposed to be. It's been a while since I've fooled with it, but I remember it falling out (shouldn't happen) when I disassembled the gun. Maybe the staking on yours isn't holding, allowing it to wobble around binding things up.

Craig

Craig, are you talking about an incerceptor latch, of which the function is essentially to time when the fresh shell is to be realeased from the magazine and enter the shellplate to be fed into the chamber. (it's held in by a C clip..)
or the two latches that are staked into the reciever on both sides SHOULD be staked, sometimes they need re-staking to be held securlely.

In any case, anyone that has a Remington gun that is need of repair, I'll be happy to provide you with a contact here at the Ilion plant.

Nickle you are right , Remington express guns aren't that finely finished as the higher end guns, then again we compete with Mossberg and Norinco for the economy market with the express line.

Gunplumber the 20% you speak of included many MINOR FLAWS, that the customer wouldn't be aware of such as slightly off center shotgun ribs that required a dial guage to see, fire controls in M700 and M7 rifles that were not staked to the proper depth.

Or M1187 barrels that function perfectly , yet the WRONG CUTTER was used to make extractor cuts...

Granted yes, mistakes do leave the plant, we are not perfect, however to make blanket statements, and try to extoll your vast knowlege of gunsmithing by personally attacking gunsmiths working for the largest US gunmaker...

this one takes the cake:

"It may "explain" why your company turns out so many defects (one out of 5? You have to be kidding), but it is still inexcusable. "I was in a hurry 'cause my mean boss was yelling at me to go faster"

If I DON"T meet certain guidelines of production, then they will find someone who WILL!

Would you keep an employee around indefinately who only turns out half the work of the rest of your employees?

You go on:

"So don't try to rationalize shitty QC in the gun industry by waxing poetic about how tough your job quotas are."

I am illustrating a point that YOU as a CUSTOM GUNSMITH work on a few guns a day, the same way the Remington Custom Shop works.

I know ,as both my Grandfather and Father both worked in the Custom Shop.

You compare the price of a Custom M700 or M870 to a production model?

APPLES and ORANGES!

You compare your work as a Custom Smith to the work of a Production Smith?

Fine, I'll start by doing half the number of guns a night, if you'll be willing to pay, oh let's say DOUBLE what you're paying for a Production Gun??????????????

Are any of you willing to pay $500.00 for an Express 870?

I doubt it!

As Cliffy points out, quality is directly linked to price!

I personally think Remington should do away with the abomination of a rifle known as the 710, but they don't listen to me... they sell the 710 to the same guys that go out once or twice a year with their buddies and either hunt shotgun with a Mossburg Maverick or rifle with the M 710!

So we either let Express 870's go out with a few extra tooling marks, a burr and a sycamore stock, and sell at competitive prices OR we put F Grade wood on everything , hire more polishers, and charge $1200.00 a pop for a pumpgun.

Essentially every M870 comes from the same block of steel, so if you buy an Express or a Wingmaster, or a Custom Trap Wingmanster from the Custom Shop it's a matter of what you want to pay the hired help to do am I right?

I posted the insight on how we produce guns for the general population of this board, so they can be EDUCATED to the process, I in no way said that binding and extraction problems were to be excused.... did I?

I do have some complaints about Remington that I have expressed in private to others on this board, both via private messages, and face to face with members of the NY FAL/AR-15 Crew. They know what I've put up with to get to where I am today.

I have made no excuses , and stand behind every gun I make.

Ask some of the NY crew who have seen my handywork first hand, would they want one of the guns I build?

Would they buy the Sidewinder FAL Tool?

I would bet this weeks paycheck against yours they would!

[SP10]

Some folks in this thread tried to help the original poster. Some, with overly inflated egos, didn't. We KNOW that the overly inflated ego type(s) NEVER make a mistake or error in judgement, and would eagerly accept any due criticism (assuming they EVER did make a mistake), now don't we

[cliffy109]

Originally posted by Adirondack1



As Cliffy points out, quality is directly linked to price!...

Would I be considered to have an "overly inflated ego" to point out that this caught my eye.

Let's lighten up guys (insert stern but friendly glance at Gunplummer here). Thanks Adirondak for the insight on the Remmington plant. There are some Remmy I wont own, but on the whole, I love the rifles and think the 870 is the 1911 of the shotgun world.

[berford]

Well the rain moved on to the west and I was able to try out my gun with some remington dove loads. The gun ran perfectly! Needless to say I am a happy man. I guess that I will simply have to avoid winchester ammo for this particular gun. While some might say this is not acceptable, I really dont care. I think its a great gun for the price. Thanks to everyone who posted. I have learned a lot about remington guns through this which I found to be very interesting. I also learned a lot about certain personalities on this board which I have found to be equally interesting! Again thanks for all the input.

Berford

[gunplumber]

Albrecht keyless drill chucks are the best.

Yep, got one of those an a 1/2" arbor for micro drilling. Was $100 used, and I think a great deal at that.



What type of Taiwanese mill did you purchase for $3250?

A Sharpe. And no - it was $7500. At least with power crossfeed, Internal computer controlled 3 phase to single phase inverter, digital X and Y and digital reostat controlled RPM.

I in no way said that binding and extraction problems were to be excused.... did I? . . . I have made no excuses

First, are you a gunsmith? or an assembler? Seperate subject, just wondering. The vast majority of my FAL work is "assembly". NOt what I would consider "gunsmithing. Gunsmithing starts where the factory parts end. So I am wondering what you define as gunsmithing, compared to an "armorer" or "assembly line worker"

Anyway., No, you have not directly stated "binding and extraction problems are to be excused" However you have made one excuse after another to justify poor quality - about how hard your quotas are. I think your excuses have zero impact on "bad gun don't work"

I have made no comment on the lower "quality" of the wood and the wireblast finish on the express. That is, to me, an acceptable cost-cutting measure to keep the price down. But my comment that a gun that does not go bang reliably out of the box is inexcusable and is "$hit quality control - not `new gun syndrome'" stands.

I think its totally cool that you work for Remington. I am dismayed that your response is "look how tough my job is" Rather than "here's a few things to check out before returning for warranty." You will notice, that despite my condemnation of a gun with problems, I offered in my first post the "first" step in diagnosing it - ammo.

We KNOW that the overly inflated ego type(s) NEVER make a mistake

If "overinflated ego" means "strong sense of purpose and solid ideology unshaken by light breezes" then I am MR. Overinflated Ego, thank you very much. MY beliefs (guns that don't go bang out of the box are crap quality control) don't change, just because others have lower standards or none at all.

And yes, I have turned out stuff that should not have left the shop. I am embarrassed and apologize and fix it. I do not whine about how tough my job is.. The point of my post, if one actually read it, is not so much that a mistake may have been made, but the inane rationalization of it as "new gun syndrome" requiring "breaking in period".

[FP1201]

" Because words have meaning and must also be taken in context. By "breaking in" I was referring to the gun-writer whore terminology for desperately shooting a gun that does not work properly out-of-the-box in the hopes that somehow it will end up working after a few hundred rounds. "
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Why didn't you specify this in the firsty place? Statements such as these
"There is no such thing as "break-in period" on guns. It is a bullshit term invented by gunwriter whores to justify a piece-of-shit DEFECTIVE UNIT froma major advertiser.." prompt defensive posturing from folks who own/build/repair the product in question.
Remington has had, and will proabably continue to have quality control issues. Most major manufacturer do.
Yes a new product should work properly right out of the box, but firearms do tend to work better when the action has been repetedly cycled.

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"I am amazed at the lengths some of you go to try to justify poor work. It is the essence of the Communist system to equate medicrity with excellence. The "good enough is good enough " attitude is what is turning America into a second rate country."
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The acceptance of poor workmanship is reflected by the price the consumer is willing to pay. People bitch about Walmart killing off local buisnesses, but we're the ones buying from Wally-World because they have the lowest prices.
Defective merchandice cost the manufacturers money...lots of it, so it's in their best interest to produce the best product for an anount the market will support.
The Remington 700 is roughly twice the price of the 870. Getting one that doesn't work crectly out of the box isn't anymore accetpable because of price. That doesn't qualify either as a piece-of-shit, only that someone didn't do their job. It will be an inconvience, but return it. I'm certain it will be taken care of.

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And you are the only one to want a "confidentiality agreement." Sure - okay, no prob. But if my word isn't any good to you, my signature in this case will cost you $2000.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Yes, again words do mean something. The best attorneys will read a document word-by-word to ascertain its true meaning.
Unfortunitly a mans word no longer carries the gravity it once did, and "my-word" will not hold up in court. By no means anm I suggesting that anyones word isn't good, but that there is little recourse.
Think about personal checks: most of us won't take them, and those that do will not release the goods until it clears. Isn't a check just a piece of paper that offers my word that you'll get the money promised?

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Sadly I along with others have hi-jacked this thread that started out as a question as to why my shotgun doesn't always work right.

[georgestrings]

"Berford
Might be off-topic by now, but I have a similar problem with an 870. I think I have it traced to a shell latch (please correct here if necessary) which is staked to the inside of the receiver, or is supposed to be. It's been a while since I've fooled with it, but I remember it falling out (shouldn't happen) when I disassembled the gun. Maybe the staking on yours isn't holding, allowing it to wobble around binding things up.

Craig"


Craig - I've owned better than a half dozen 870s(still have 3 of them) over the course of 25plus years, and have had a few shell latches come un-staked... Sometimes it's a result of cycling the action with the trigger group removed, sometimes the staking just wears out, and sometimes they likely aren't staked all that great from the get-go(the least likely cause, IMO)... Anyways, it never caused the gun to malfunction, because with the trigger group in place, the latches are "captured" in their rails, and the trigger pins keep them in place lengthwise... The only difficulty un-staked latches have caused me was in re-assembly after a detail strip and clean - and even then it wasn't all that big a deal... I have since learned to re-stake them myself by centering them with the trigger pins, holding them in place while restaking them with an automatic centerpunch - that's one way to deal with this problem without returning the gun to Remington, buying the proper staking tool, or paying a gunsmith to re-stake them for you...

Just thought I'd share that with you...


- georgestrings

[georgestrings]

"I guess that I will simply have to avoid winchester ammo for this particular gun."


berford - I turkey hunt exclusively with Winchester turkey loads through my 870s and 1100, and have deer hunted with SuperX slugs, and shot quite a few rounds of trap with Winchester and Federal trap loads - ALL without any difficulty whatsoever... It's possible you just had the misfortune to run into a bad batch - I have found Winchester ammo to be of very good quality, though... Your 870 should be able to run flawlessly on ANY brand of ammo that isn't defective - I wouldn't merely write off Winchester ammo just yet if I were you... As big a fan of the 870 as I am, if yours won't shoot ANY brand of ammo that ISN'T defective, there is something wrong with it - you shouldn't have to worry about what you run through it...

Hopefully, you just got a bad batch, and that's the end of things - my 870s have always run flawlessly, and yours should as well...

I think that the Expresses maybe aren't as "slick"(or polished) as the Wingmasters are out of the box, but they still should run properly from day one - and after being shot for awhile, will slick up rather nicely... I currently have two Wingmasters, and one Express - and have owned several others of both varieties - both are good guns, and will both last SEVERAL lifetimes of use...

I hope yours is all squared away, bud...


- georgestrings

[gunplumber]

" Because words have meaning and must also be taken in context. By "breaking in" I was referring to the gun-writer whore terminology for desperately shooting a gun that does not work properly out-of-the-box in the hopes that somehow it will end up working after a few hundred rounds. "
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[b]why didn't you specify this in the firsty place? Statements such as these

"There is no such thing as "break-in period" on guns. It is a bullshit term invented by gunwriter whores to justify a piece-of-shit DEFECTIVE UNIT froma major advertiser.." prompt defensive posturing from folks who own/build/repair the product in question..[b]

I did n- what is it about my description that made you decise I was talking about seasonng a new barrel?

I cannot defend a position I never took. Others decision to "call me" on things I never said are outside of my control.

[Adirondack1]

[B] "First, are you a gunsmith? or an assembler? Seperate subject, just wondering. The vast majority of my FAL work is "assembly". NOt what I would consider "gunsmithing. Gunsmithing starts where the factory parts end. So I am wondering what you define as gunsmithing, compared to an "armorer" or "assembly line worker" [B]

I started as an apprentice gunsmith under(Edited name for privacy) Winter of 1982 under his guidance along with my Father (who worked for Remington in : Remington's Custom Shop, Custom Repair and R&D)
I am not just an assembler....thank you! I repair customers firearms, and assemble new firearms, so where I would be on your personal foodchain of "Gunsmiths vs. Armorer/Assemblers only you can guage on your personal scale I can only guess.

[B] "Anyway., No, you have not directly stated "binding and extraction problems are to be excused" However you have made one excuse after another to justify poor quality - about how hard your quotas are. I think your excuses have zero impact on "bad gun don't work" [B]

My original post to Berford:

"I work about 50 yards from where they're put together here in Ilion, I'll ask one of the gunsmiths that assembles them tonight.

Sounds to me like there might be some crud or a metal shaving/burr under the extractor plunger.

I'd take the gun apart again and douche the extractor area with Remclean or carb choke cleaner and work the extractor by hand a few dozen times. then lube her with CLP, ( that's what we use in final assembly)
do this first,and if you have anymore probs after that PM me or post here and I'll give you someone to call in the plant , you can send it back and we'll get her up and running for you!"

[B] I have made no comment on the lower "quality" of the wood and the wireblast finish on the express. That is, to me, an acceptable cost-cutting measure to keep the price down. But my comment that a gun that does not go bang reliably out of the box is inexcusable and is "$hit quality control - not `new gun syndrome'" stands. [B]

Fine have it your way, like I said, none of us are perfect, and sometimes a less than perfect specimine gets thru to and end user, i'f it's a burr in the extractor plunger area, weak spring, wrath of GOD or a new guy just starting out as an assembler, and didn't do the required number of quality checks.... I can even tell you who was the inspector/packer of a particular piece by looking in the database, if you want to go to his/her house and bitch slap them!


[B] I think its totally cool that you work for Remington. I am dismayed that your response is "look how tough my job is" Rather than "here's a few things to check out before returning for warranty." You will notice, that despite my condemnation of a gun with problems, I offered in my first post the "first" step in diagnosing it - ammo. [B]

Actually if you go back and read my initial post, you'll see I gave him some advise, and volunteered to ask the most knowlegable person , the Smith who is in charge of diagnosis of problem children (who has more than 40 years of experiance by the way) in the 870 line..... I was #5 with a suggestion, and you were #7, you win the diagnosis lottery this time! here's your prize!

Maybe next time I'll win the electronic beer and "we're not worthy bow"!

[familyman357]

I guess that I will simply have to avoid winchester ammo for this particular gun.

Don't write off Winchester ammo for your shotgun just yet. Find the same load with a different lot number and give it a go. You might've just gotten some skunky ammo.

[AK Bird Slayer]

I had the same problem with a used 870 I purchased at a gun show, for me the problem was, there is small metal bar on the inside of the action, when you open the action look inside and you will see it, it is what the shells catch on and begins the process of ejecting it, that is probably bent a little so some times the shells will catch and somethimes they wont. I had a gunsmith fix it for me and it only cost 10$ but if it is new I would take it back and either have them fix it or get a new one.

[Nickle]

Originally posted by gunplumber
I cannot defend a position I never took. Others decision to "call me" on things I never said are outside of my control.

I originally said:
Build many match grade M1911A1's or Bench Guns? They HAVE to be broken-in if they're made correctly.

Your response to that:
Sure - and if its not BEFORE the gun leaves the manufacturer, its called "shitty work"

Your quote:
"There is no such thing as "break-in period" on guns. It is a bullshit term invented by gunwriter whores to justify a piece-of-shit DEFECTIVE UNIT froma major advertiser.." prompt defensive posturing from folks who own/build/repair the product in question..

I stand behind my statements that you are in error. Your words were NOT taken out of context. As I said earlier, you made a blanket statement. That was an error on your part. Some guns need to be broken-in, and if the gunsmith does it, the cost can get prohibitively expensive, especially a bench gun. I took offense to that because you indirectly referred to me (and Adirondack1) as sloppy workers. I'm not. He's probably not, either.

FWIW, I'm human, too. I spoke this AM with my friend the really good 1911 shooter. He said his gun would cost over $2000.00 if parts AND labor were factored in. So, GP, on the 1911 issue, you were right about the cost. And I do agree that sending it out with lapping compound on it is crappy Quality Control, for which they should be ashamed.

Back on to the 870 Rem at issue:

If it doesn't work with Rem, Win AND Federal ammo, take it to a shop that does warranty work on Remington, or PM Adirondack1. It should work with most any quality ammo.