Anyone Used a FAL in an Urban Rifle Class?

[Apache7]

Hello,

I am wanting to take an Urban Rifle course. All of these courses pretty much specify AR-15s. Has anyone use a FAL in one of these courses? Was using a 7.62 FAL that much of a hinderance? Were you able to keep pace with the other students? It seems the all the schools believe .223 platforms are the only suitable weapon to use in conflicts.


I plan to use a FAL carbine.

Thanks.

[Court in Fl]

I had a customer who used a FAL in one of Chuck Taylor's classes
and had no problem at all.

I would say its a question of if you can shoot and carry a .308 for 300 or more rounds over a 8 hour day.
When I was younger I could, but now that .308 gets heavy.

I would say if you think you are up for it then give it a try.

Court in FL.

[F4GIB]

It won't be a problem if you can do 100 push ups, 3 times a day. UR is a real test of upper body strength.

[lee446]

I took the course at Thunder Ranch two years ago, one guy showed up with an SKS and he converted over to a rented AR as soon as he saw that the pace of the class and the reliability of his gun were holding him back. My wife and I went through a 2700 round tub of SA and most of a 800 rd can of malaysian 5.56 in the week. Lots of shooting and reloading! The comment about pushups is right on and don't forget setups and sprints. Lots of get up and down activity and I promise you that the guys with the H-Bars were coveting my lightweight CAR and my wifes stock SP-1! You also do "cover" drills, holding a suspect under the gun and again, you would be surprised how heavy the muzzle gets when you have to hold on target for more than a couple of minutes. IMO, based on what I went through at the age of 47(decent shape) I was thanking God that I reconsidered using my M-1A and went AR.
Irrespective of your condition and attitude, you are paying big bucks for the training, and if using a lighter rifle allows you to progress quicker and learn more in the amount of time that you are there, you will get more from the class! Everything that you learn can apply to the FAL, so you have not lost anything by using a lighter tool. Being worn out 6 hours into an 8 hour day ain't cost effective here! If you are in top shape with great wind, then by all means, use the Fal and give us a report back! You will have a great time! One hint, Bring lots of mags and LOTS of strippers. I was the only one in a class of 22 that brought strippers and I was doing all the loading for me and my wife. They don't waste much time between drills, and I was barely getting us topped up, if I had been by myself, I would have had enough time to rest and get a drink between rounds by using strippers. Everyone else was getting "Black Thumb", trying to get everything topped back up. Whose class are you taking? Enjoy!

[Red4]

This reminds me...a few - well, ok, many years ago as a young man I was faced with choosing between an M-16 (with the time period triangular hand guard) or an M-60 to carry along on my first happy little 20k road march which included 100+ degree heat, lots of dust, blisters, being ambushed repeatedly, and of course "gas gas by God gas!"

Being "hard core" (I thought) AND an old war movie buff, I chose the PIG.

SO...speaking from limited experience - and saving everyone from a looong pitiful story - I say TAKE AN AR!

[Falunga]

Push-up muscles and those used holding your arms (and a weapon) up are totally different.

I'm an electrician and I work over my head all day long (usually on a ladder going up and down repeatedly) The AR is nothing -not much more than just holding your arms out. I don't really think the FAL is that heavy either. Yes, it is a bit heftier than the AR but it's not like the 60 or running a big Hilti hammer-drill for four hours dry-coring through 16" of slushed block or lifting and screwing 10-foot sticks of 4" rigid conduit together onto a rack from a ladder. I think when I hear people complaining about carrying a real rifle that it is kinda strange. What kind of desk jobs do you guys have?

The FAL is NOT heavy compared to a unwieldy 100lb by 10' stick of 4" rigid. Try lifting that up from the ground, throwing it over your shoulder, carrying it 200' and then climbing up an 8' ladder and setting it onto a uni-strut rack all day long and screwing it together with massive pipe wrenches that weigh 20 lbs themselves. At least on the walk back to the pipe pile or to the bender you get to rest your arms a little bit. Give me the 10lb FAL any day/all day.

Jim FALunga

[SKTRGNLDR]

Several years ago I used a FAL in a Gunsite class...no problems!

[tinfinger]

Falunga, desks jobs of almost any kind are NOT good for your physical shape. Or your eyes either.

I've had one for 12 years now, good job, good place to work. But bad physically. Maybe those Japanese companies that make their workers do PE first thing in the morning aren't so crazy after all.

[Calvert1]

Last year I saw a fellow use a DSA carbine at Thunder Ranch and he was hurting after the first day. He finished the course, but his performance was well behind those of us with lighter rifles.

I agree with the poster above who stated that you can apply everything you learn at a class to the FAL, but it would certainly be easier to learn if you take the class with an AR. It allows you to spend more time paying attention to the instructor instead of your aching muscles.

[flick]

You should take the rifle that you would be using in real life. If your no.1 rifle is the FAL and you take an AR15 to the class to save weight, then you are missing the point of "training"!
The FAL is heavier but worth it if you want more power/range. To condition yourself to heft it the best thing to do would be to carry it often and get used to it's weight, like on woods walks. my .02

[Will+1]

I have taken a couple of UR classes now. I carried an AK which makes me an odd duc. The instructors gave up on me halfway through the malf drills. Tap Rack doesn't work with an AK, in an AK the magazine is either fully seated or it's on the ground!

Anyway we had a guy at our last class at TR that had an M1A. He did fine though had some movement problems in Thunderville. Some of the shooting positions are pretty tight, under stairwells, into tiny "rooms" 3'x3' etc...Sub .308 rifles are at their best at Urban distances though, faster and lighter to handle, shoot quicker.

If you are learning techniques that really only apply to one rifle there is something wrong with your instruction. Urban rifle is tactics based around short range combat with cover and movement- which have little to do with specific weapons designs. Even the malf drills are not that different-Tap-Rack/Roll-Attempt to Fire or variations thereof. As an example at TR I had been shooting an AK for two days, several hundred rounds worth. We go to the Tower and the Terminator and they hand you an AR in 9m/m as they don't want you blowing the heck out of the targets and building. I completed the runs as fast as anyone and faster than many, no problems. In fact, on the Tower run I started with the AR and once you exit the Tower you went right to Thunderville with your gun, not a hitch, hit all my targets well with time to spare.

UR is about exploiting the hard hitting capability of a rifle at close range, not am I carrying an FN or a FAMAS or a SMLE, tactics apply across the board.

[lee446]

If youi think that setups/pushups are not relevant to UR, then you have not taken the class! Many of the repetitive drills are done laying flat on your back with your muzzle between your feet, then sitting up using no hands while firing your rifle at a moving target, similar drill getting up off your belly using one hand while covering the target, leaning backward around a barricade to engage moving targets and so on. It all sounds like no problem until you are on it for the tenth time in a row after about 8 hours of drills that you have not done since boot camp. The line about training with your Fal would be good and fine if you can afford to take the classes repeatedly until you get up to speed, Hell , its your money! In the real world, for most of us, getting the most out of the limited amount of training is the primary consideration and anything that helps is a plus. And yeah, on my right side during the range drills, I had a "manly" deputy sherrif that thought civilians and especially women had no place in that kind of training and it was a gas to see my wife outshoot him consistantly with irons vs. aimpoint. Hits are what counts, all the rest is just macho B.S.

[Falunga]

I didn't say that Sit/push-ups where not relevant to Urban Rifle. I stated that the muscles that you use to HOLD (are you reading my words here?) your rifle are NOT the same muscles you use to MOVE your body around (are you still paying attention?) If you want to be able to move your body around on the ground then you need to build those muscles and lose excess pounds. If you want also to be able to hold your rifle up for extended periods, especially if you want something that is not a anemic in the stopping power category then you will have to build the muscles that hold things up. Curls, overhand and underhand lifts and extended stamina exercises holding your arms out and up are what are needed. Pushups will not build those muscles.

There was a guy in my basic training unit who would max out both push-ups and sit-ups every day in PT but would cry like a little girl when he had to hold the itty-bitty M-16 straight out from his body for more than 60 seconds. Different muscles, and different exercises are needed to build them both. Carrying a lighter rifle will NOT make it much easier to move your body around if you don't have the muscles to do that either. I am NOT saying that pushups are not helpful for building certain muscles, I AM saying that you will need to do more if you don't want to be shaking in your arms from holding your EFFECTIVE battle rifle up all day.

Jim FALunga

Train like you FIGHT!

[Rosstradamus]

Originally posted by Falunga
What kind of desk jobs do you guys have?

The FAL is NOT heavy compared to a unwieldy 100lb by 10' stick of 4" rigid. Try lifting that up from the ground, throwing it over your shoulder, carrying it 200' and then climbing up an 8' ladder and setting it onto a uni-strut rack all day long and screwing it together with massive pipe wrenches that weigh 20 lbs themselves. At least on the walk back to the pipe pile or to the bender you get to rest your arms a little bit.

This is why I went to college.

I work with my brain, not my back.

[Falunga]

Originally posted by Rosstradamus


This is why I went to college.

I work with my brain, not my back.

Me too. Then I got bored in the office and went back to school one more time and got a job doing both and paying even better. Profit-sharing can be a good thing.

Jim FALunga