Romanian 7.62X25

[ONG]

Anyone have any info on this stuff? I want to shoot this in a CZ52 and I read an article that warns against using ammo made for a machinegun in this pistol.

Read another article that says you don't have to worry the CZ can handle it.

Is this machinegun or hand gun ammo? And is there a concern?

Thanks

[masman]

stay away from this and you'll be ok

[ONG]

The this link does'nt work for me.

[TKTM]

There has always been a warning (a wives tale, I think) about using cz-52 ammo in a tokarev. The same tale always says that the cz-52 is strong enough to handle anything. Having shot quite a bunch of various kinds of 7.62x25 ammo, based on velocities, the "super hot" ammo claims are a myth. There are submachine gun loads out there like the 16 rnd paper wrapped bundles of Bulgarian ammo. Its velocity is no higher than a typical round but it does throw a good amount of burning powder out of the barrel resulting in a BIG FLASH and BOOOM. I have not shot the Romanian ammo, but if it is machine gun ammo I wager that it is similar to the Bulgarian.

As far as CZ-52's are concerend, they seem to break easily. One never hears of a tokarev breaking.

[masman]

the link worked earlier. anyway it says to stay away from certin batches of bulgarian.

[John Culver]

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm


Fixed Link

[masman]

Originally posted by TKTM
the "super hot" ammo claims are a myth.

myth huh

I received confirmation of the test results obtained by Accurate with regard to the surplus Bulgarian ammunition that was submitted for further testing. The results are rather alarming in that the average pressure of the tested rounds was recorded at 46,000 c.u.p. with rounds spiking as high as 55,000 c.u.p. during these tests. The highest pressures that were recorded exceed the pressure limitations of most handgun designs. In fact, these pressures are close to the range of pressures often reserved for proof-loads.

thanks for fixing the link john

[Calvert1]

By the way, the Romanian x25 is still sitting in a Customs warehouse waiting for approval to be released. There are serveral distributers waiting for this stuff, but there is a chance it won't be approved since x25 is listed as AP.

[ONG]

By the way, the Romanian x25 is still sitting in a Customs warehouse waiting for approval to be released. There are serveral distributers waiting for this stuff, but there is a chance it won't be approved since x25 is listed as AP.

Yea I have had it ordered since last December. When I called AIM last Thursday they told me that the ammo has finally been released and will be in their warehouse in 3 weeks. Guess time will tell.

Thanks everyone for your imput.

[Hail Mary]

The Czech brass case BXN 52 and 53 7.62x25 ammo is really really really hot. I broke a SMG shooting it and the owner was pissed (but it was his ammo so he couldn't really complain). Definitely don't shoot it thru any handgun.
I'm anxious to try out this Romanian ammo too.

[TKTM]

Originally posted by masman


myth huh



thanks for fixing the link john

Show me the actual data/test showing the very high pressures measured, then tell me if this extra high pressure includes all the burning powder sent down range when this ammo is fired through a pistol. That powder does not put any load on the pistol. Yet it probably shows up in a confined pressure test. So Yeah, I still call it a myth and will till I see the actual data/test or maybe tokarevs exploding, instead of CZ-52.

I think the real issue is that CZ-52 just are not as strong as people believe them to be, throw in an after market barrel and your just asking for trouble.

[ammolab]

"The Czech brass case BXN 52 and 53 7.62x25 ammo is really really really hot."
I also feel this is a 'myth' or ledged.....This Czech surplus ammo is SLOWER over my Chrony than New Commercial S&B 7.62x25mm FMJ. It also was pressure tested by Accurate Arms in their pressure barrel when working up a semi-standard pressure level for this round and it had a chamber pressure level that fell rigtht in line with all the other GI mfg. 7.62x25mm ammo tested.
None of this caliber is SISSY stuff.....but "HOT MG/SMG" is just not needed here. It is a pretty high velocity pistol/smg round in the first place.

[masman]

Originally posted by TKTM


I still call it a myth and will till I see the actual data/test or maybe tokarevs exploding, instead of CZ-52.

I think the real issue is that CZ-52 just are not as strong as people believe them to be, throw in an after market barrel and your just asking for trouble.

outside of the bulgarian mentioned in the link above and the intentional overloads of fal filer clark.please tell me of cz-52's blowing up.fac has sold alot of aftermarket barrels and if they're as unsafe as you say.then fac should be pulling off the market.

[TKTM]

I would not say that I am familiar with lots of cz-52 "blowing up", but I have met several people who have had them break and, including one that was supposedly new (grey, looked perfect). I have never heard of anyone having a tokarev break. This despite the "fact" that Cz-52 is "much stronger" than the tokarev. And lets not forget the doom warnings of not shooting "hot cz ammo" in a tok. In the past I have heard of cz-52's blowing when rechambered to 9mm, whereas the Tok even when chambered in .38 super was not known to "blow".

My point is that there are lots of wives tales out there that get repeated like gospel. I did NOT say that the FAC barrels were unsafe, what I did say is that putting in an aftermarket barrel is asking for trouble. To say whether or not the barrel is unsafe would require tests. However the photo of the failed barrel found in the links above is interesting.


The thing to remember about old 7.62x25 ammo is that eastern block brass cases often have age cracks, which show burn through after they are fired. These cracks should not cause a pistol to fail, they typically are not pressure related. But should the brass fail and then partially block the barrel, then its a different story (btw this was also suggested as a possible failure mechanism in the link). But I highly doubt that the problem is related to super hot loaded machine gun ammo. The 7.62 x 25 machine gun ammo typical burns a lot of powder OUTSIDE of the barrel of a pistol, in a longer barrel like IN A SUB GUN the extra powder does increase the pressures, namely because it burns in the longer barrel. If the sub gun ammo doesn’t blow up the frail tokarev then why should it blow the "much stronger" cz-52?

Again, I would like to see the data from the tests showing that the pistol actually experiences all the pressure from that "super hot ammo", instead of burning it away outside the barrel like the typical Bulgarian subgun ammo?

My guess is that the problem is related to a weak gun, with an aftermarket barrel firing old ammo with weak brass.

[FWRA]

Originally posted by masman


myth huh



thanks for fixing the link john

Man I guess the Gods have smiled on me. I've shot hundreds of rounds of this "dangerous" Bulgarian ammo with that exact headstamp mentioned in that article. Century sold it by the ton last year for $89 per thousand and I never heard any complaints about KB's. The biggest problem with that ammo was the number of misfires per box. (that and the fact that the paper wrappers disintegrated when touched.)

I still say, rather than shoot shit surplus ammo, (which this Bulgie sure was) just buy S&B commercial 7.62x25 and be done with it. That always goes bang and is accurate too.

[masman]

Originally posted by FWRA


Man I guess the Gods have smiled on me. I've shot hundreds of rounds of this "dangerous" Bulgarian ammo with that exact headstamp mentioned in that article. Century sold it by the ton last year for $89 per thousand and I never heard any complaints about KB's. The biggest problem with that ammo was the number of misfires per box. (that and the fact that the paper wrappers disintegrated when touched.)

I still say, rather than shoot shit surplus ammo, (which this Bulgie sure was) just buy S&B commercial 7.62x25 and be done with it. That always goes bang and is accurate too.

the link was more aimed toward the cz-52 naysayers in this thread.i for one love mine.i shoot primarily s&b but have a few hundred rounds of polish in reserve.

[ONG]

As an FYI I just called AIM. They said the ammo was still in customs 4-6-04 but should be released shortly and be shipped out by the end of this month. All that I could get from the gal was that there had been a couple of issues but to her knowledge those had been resolved. I told her that if it did not ship before long that I was either going to have to purchase some S&B or start going bangy-bangy.......bangy-bangy.

We'll see.

[Clark]

I got a Letter from Ted Curtis ballistican at Accurate Arms in March of 2000. Ted Curtis, a very old ballistican already was bald and had jowls in his 1966 photo in "Speer 7". All the typos are Ted's:

"7.62 X 25 Tokarev

Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered
for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load
data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In
determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested
various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the
Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also
tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our
lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was
significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent
pressures between all other type sand manufactures was a welcome
surprise . Indeed, the fact that CZech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol,
produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps
the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal
lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it
claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will
causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo tested certainly doesn't support this theory.

The pressure data shown here was developed in a 9" pressure barrel. We
then fired the same loads thru an issue CZ-52 with a barrel length " to
record the velocities. We felt that this would give a much better
picture of the field performance of this data. The CZ-52 was kindly
provided by Mr. lane Pierce without whose participation in the form of
aid, equipment and ammo this project could not have been completed. We
feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for the CZ-52 so
long as the firearm is in good condition. Other models of foreign
handguns of a lessor quality should probably be loaded in a more
cautious manner.

Test Gun Douglas test barrel / CZ-52
CTG/Case Starline
Primer CCI 500

Bullet/Wt Powder Chg/WT Velocity Pressure O.A.L.
Sierra 85 RN NO 2 IMP 6.5 gr 1640 fps 41,500 C.U.P. 1.316""

[and the rest of the load published in Accurate Arms Load Book Number
Two" in later 2000]

That book has some of the information of the letter:
page 80:
"7.62x25mm TOKAREV
This handgun is increasing in popularity in the U.S. In determining the
appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested various military
ammo from China, Austria, Bulgaria and the czech Republic. Commercial
ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also tested. Based on these
results we arrived at a maximum pressure for our load data of 42,000
C.U.P.
The pressure data shown here was developed in a 9" pressure barrel. We
then fired the same loads through and issue CZ-52 to record the
velocities. We felt that this would give a much better picture of the
field performance of this data. The CZ-52 was kindly provided by Lane
Pierce.
We feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for the the
CZ-52 so long as the firearm is in good condition. OTher models of
foreign handguns of lesser quality should probably be loaded in a more
cautious manner."




Old Ted spotted one bit of tribal lore and let another one slip through his keyboard.

[masman]

Originally posted by Clark
We feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for the CZ-52 so
long as the firearm is in good condition. Other models of foreign
handguns of a lessor quality should probably be loaded in a more
cautious manner.

i agree with him. you could learn a few things from him clark

[TKTM]

I take it he is referring to the mauser. The ONLY reasons people think the CZ-2 is "stronger" is because of the HOT CZ ammo myth, as dispelled above, and because of the "incredibly strong" roller locking mechanism. Just how do we know that the roller locking is so "strong" in the CZ, well because every one says so and because it is used in an HK rifle. Yet, CZ-52 blow up/break and tokarevs don't I wonder why? If you notice the photos in the kaboom link is it not amazing that the "super strong" rolling lockers were blown apart in the CZ52, damn that must have been a hell of an explosion OR could it be they are not as strong as some think they are, Hmm?

Again look at the data, a lot of hersay about the strength of CZ-52 but they seem to break alot, on the other hand lots of hersay about the cz-52 being "stronger" than the tokarev, yet tokarevs just don't seem to break, even when they were chambering .38 super, im sure its just luck.

[ONG]

Another update,

Called AIM to see if the ammo had shipped yet. Steve tells me it will be another 2-3 weeks. Still issue with customs. I pointed out to Steve that is the standard answer from AIM on this ammo. I also pointed out to him that Interordance Arms latest catalog showed huge piles of the same ammo ready to ship. I asked Steve if they didn't buy from the same importer. He said yes they did. I asked him if someone was blowing smoke up his butt? He said he was going to find out. Sigh.

[warguns]

What's the best deals on 7.62x25 ?

[ONG]

9 cents a round at Interordance & Aim. If they'll ship it to you. I believe this stuff will be corrossive, if that matters to you. Ammunitionstore.com has S&B so do others.