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Old June 23, 2018, 16:01   #1
Mebsuta
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Was the slickside M16 used throughout the VN war?

Did they continue to use the slickside M16, concurrently with the forward assist version, throughout teh Vietnam War? Or were they withdrawn and held in reserve, etc?
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Old June 23, 2018, 16:07   #2
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Interesting question. I thought they issued the assist due to issues in VN during VN. Then they decided to issue cleaning kits. YH should know
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Old June 23, 2018, 16:09   #3
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To a large extent the M16A1 version replaced the earlier but also to a large extent it was a political decision. There really isn't anything wrong with the earlier versions,......it was 99% the use of the wrong powder and complete lack of cleaning supplies. The Air Force never did accept the forward assist. Chrome lining chamber and later chamber and bore was a benefit and covered over the real problems to some degree.

Army wanted the forward assist,......Stoner was against the idea.
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Old June 23, 2018, 16:15   #4
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To a large extent the M16A1 version replaced the earlier but also to a large extent it was a political decision. There really isn't anything wrong with the earlier versions,......it was 99% the use of the wrong powder and complete lack of cleaning supplies. The Air Force never did accept the forward assist. Chrome lining chamber and later chamber and bore was a benefit and covered over the real problems to some degree.

Army wanted the forward assist,......Stoner was against the idea.
Wasn’t the ammo because Stoner used stick that was standard issue? Then the gub went to ball?
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Old June 23, 2018, 17:19   #5
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Yep, ball was reconstituted WWII surplus powder. It left too much residue on firing and grossly increased port pressure causing all sorts of problems with cartridge sticking and rim tearing,.....and no cleaning rods in the field to push the stuck cases out.

Gov't knew it was a problem too. Rifles were massively failing acceptance firing and Colt was instructed to do the acceptance firing with ammo loaded with IMR stick powder so they could keep shipping rifles to VN to be fired with ammo loaded with ball powder.
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Old June 23, 2018, 17:53   #6
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I always thought the A2 upper was in VN. Mebs needs to go to arfcom and get back with us. Wasn’t A1 slick side?
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Old June 23, 2018, 18:15   #7
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A2 came in '84 and basically ruined a fine rifle. Easily adjustable(overly complicated)rear sight on the carry handle, 3rd burst mechanism, idiotic H-Bar barrel with weight in exactly the wrong spot, and 1:7 twist to adequately stabilize tracer slugs out to 1000m in sub-zero temps. Too long A2 butt, the round handguards and the finger bump grip that everyone hates. Added several pounds to a lightweight combat rifle to make it 'better' for the range. Other than the squared front sight post, every change was a step 'away' from perfection.
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Old June 23, 2018, 18:21   #8
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Thanks I thought A2 was the change to the assist and A3 was the rail.
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Old June 23, 2018, 18:21   #9
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Yah, A2 upper is 1980s and has the rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation.

A1 upper is like the original slickside but has a forward assist. I think A1s start to show up in numbers around 1967.

If I were starting over in ARs, I would pattern them after the Colt 603, which is M16A1, and maybe the Colt 602 and 604, which are slickside.

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Old June 23, 2018, 18:36   #10
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Throw in the C7/C8 type uppers if you want to further muddy the timelines....
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Old June 23, 2018, 18:41   #11
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Throw in the C7/C8 type uppers if you want to further muddy the timelines....
1980s Canadian I think. I used to be confused by those, but they have the brass deflector.
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Old June 23, 2018, 18:54   #12
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Yes, they were, but Colt also supplied those style uppers as "spare parts" right through to the late 80s for anywhere that didn't want A2 uppers (Australia being one of those recipients), I always wondered in they made their way into the US system the same way.
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Old June 23, 2018, 21:32   #13
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Wasn’t the ammo because Stoner used stick that was standard issue? Then the gub went to ball?
You all need to take a look at The History and Development of the M16 Rifle and its Cartridge by Hughes.

Ball or stick has nothing to do with it. The issue is that no powder could reliably meet all of the specs put down by the USG.

Late in the development of the 5.56 cartridge .gov decided they wanted 100fps more while not changing the upper limit on the chamber and port pressure specs.

For test lots, DuPont (IMR stick) could cherry pick powder lots that would give the MV without exceeding the pressure specs.

When it came time to bid the first production lot, DuPont simply did not bid the contract because they could not produce the magic powder in such volume. Other powders had to be found.

Any reloader will tell you that the way to get more MV with the same chamber pressure is to use a "slower" powder. This raises the pressure at the gas port and the result was high port pressures, overcycling and jams. Rifles exceeding the cyclic rate were accepted on waivers.

The issue with ball powder gunking up gas tubes is a separate issue. The mfg. (Olin?) used a alkali calcium compound to neutralize acids and stabilize the powder. This was the what plugged up the tubes. When the issue was discovered the amount used was reduced and the problem went away. Good article in some 1978 American Rifleman about it.
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Old June 24, 2018, 00:13   #14
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My father (& his brother) were issued M16a1s in 1970, as we're several of my older friends.
I know a few guys that were issued M16s, but turned them in for M16a1s. (Of course, they didn't have a choice in the matter)
A couple of Air Force Vets naturally carried M16s.

Keep in mind there were quite a few variants of both the M16&a1 produced and issued during those years.
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Old June 24, 2018, 02:09   #15
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Yes, they were, but Colt also supplied those style uppers as "spare parts" right through to the late 80s for anywhere that didn't want A2 uppers (Australia being one of those recipients), I always wondered in they made their way into the US system the same way.
We began seeing the C7 uppers as spares about 1979, along with round forward assists.
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Old June 24, 2018, 02:10   #16
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All of mine had the teardrop forward assist.
Some of the guys got the slick side ones in BCT, but after that, we all had the tear drop while working.
Damn, I now feel old, living history book I am, which is not a good sign looking forward.

And, never knew anyone to ever use it btw.
Thing stopped working, drop and pick up another, they seemed to be laying about when needed.
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Old June 24, 2018, 05:45   #17
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I always thought the A2 upper was in VN. Mebs needs to go to arfcom and get back with us. Wasn’t A1 slick side?
The A1 is the addition of the forward assist. Carried it. Used it. and used the forward assist many times.
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Old June 24, 2018, 06:58   #18
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A2 came in '84 and basically ruined a fine rifle. Easily adjustable(overly complicated)rear sight on the carry handle, 3rd burst mechanism, idiotic H-Bar barrel with weight in exactly the wrong spot, and 1:7 twist to adequately stabilize tracer slugs out to 1000m in sub-zero temps. Too long A2 butt, the round handguards and the finger bump grip that everyone hates. Added several pounds to a lightweight combat rifle to make it 'better' for the range. Other than the squared front sight post, every change was a step 'away' from perfection.
Spot on kev,,

I was still in when the switch over started,,,Nobody who actually carried one, was happy to receive the a2...
Ruin a fine carbine to make a lacking rifle...
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Old June 24, 2018, 09:20   #19
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1980s Canadian I think. I used to be confused by those, but they have the brass deflector.
The canucks had the brunton bump. To confuse you more the US gov't used candian uppers as replacement parts due to A1's no longer being made when colt switched to the C/7 and A2 versions. I've seen them in the racks back in the day...had one which I lost in a fire almost three years ago.
I have to agree with Kev...the goobermint screwed the pooch on the powder and dumbed down the bullet shape that created a shit storm that got men killed and nobody was held liable over it.
I hated the A2 when they took away our A1's. But the A2 was the creation of range daisy's that allowed the adoption of the M855 ball and M856 tracer because the SS109 was just so awesome. The 1/7 wasn't designed to stabilize M196 tracer as someone assumed . There was a go at 77 gn black tipped bullets for the saw before the saw was adopted...but that's another story.
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Old June 24, 2018, 09:24   #20
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All of mine had the teardrop forward assist.
Some of the guys got the slick side ones in BCT, but after that, we all had the tear drop while working.
Damn, I now feel old, living history book I am, which is not a good sign looking forward.

And, never knew anyone to ever use it btw.
Thing stopped working, drop and pick up another, they seemed to be laying about when needed.
I'm with you on this. I never used the fwd asst.... nobody did. The only time an M16 gave me hiccups was when using M200 blanks.... and the fwd asst was useless in these regards.
Now I have seen a lot of wolf steel cased 5,56 that would not fully chamber as it was out of spec...but no damn fwd asst in the world would seat those rounds. I always have had on hand a brass rod and small ball peen hammer when buddies bring out steel cased 5,56 junk . It never fails that a round or more need to have the bolt seated with the hammer and rod to go bang .
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Old June 24, 2018, 09:30   #21
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The A1 is the addition of the forward assist. Carried it. Used it. and used the forward assist many times.
Now I know. There is a chart midway that shows the progression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
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Old June 24, 2018, 10:28   #22
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In all this, don't forget that the M16 and M16A1 were designed for the 55gr M193 and had bores twisted one turn in 305mm (1:12"). The M16A2 was 'designed' for the new 5.56x45mm NATO round with the 62gr SS109 bullet with steel penetrator (M855 in US service) and was twisted one turn in 185mm (1:7.3") to stabilize the longer bullet (and it's tracer analogue).

I consider the M855 a step backward too, since speed kills with little bullets. Then, the final blow was cutting the 20in barrel to 14.5in in the M4 carbine, really eviscerating the round. Of course, that lead to the 77gr Mark 262 in an attempt to add back some put-down power to the cartriidge...

Forrest
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Old June 24, 2018, 10:59   #23
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To confuse you more the US gov't used candian uppers as replacement parts due to A1's no longer being made when colt switched to the C/7 and A2 versions.
I'm glad with the USA liberated C7 uppers from Canada and our other Commonwealth friends. Happy 4th of July to all.
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Old June 24, 2018, 16:08   #24
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In all this, don't forget that the M16 and M16A1 were designed for the 55gr M193 and had bores twisted one turn in 305mm (1:12"). The M16A2 was 'designed' for the new 5.56x45mm NATO round with the 62gr SS109 bullet with steel penetrator (M855 in US service) and was twisted one turn in 185mm (1:7.3") to stabilize the longer bullet (and it's tracer analogue).

I consider the M855 a step backward too, since speed kills with little bullets. Then, the final blow was cutting the 20in barrel to 14.5in in the M4 carbine, really eviscerating the round. Of course, that lead to the 77gr Mark 262 in an attempt to add back some put-down power to the cartriidge...

Forrest
Nearly all of my 223/5.56 ammunition are STILL with the 55 FMJ, by choice, for this very reason, speed kills with tiny little bullets.

If I ever have need to face off with up armored ninga monsters in great numbers, here in the states,,,,,,,,well screw all of that, will just give them the right of way, then make like a rabbit back to my hidey hole and make soup, take a nap, get laid!

Up armored ninga monsters never travel alone, have radios, people on the other end to speak to, with TAC air.
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Old June 25, 2018, 10:10   #25
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Think I will build a slickside, and chickenwing it and rabbit-ear it.



I don't know if I can elevate like that, cuz my shoulder is messed up from swimming. I can hold straight out though.
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Old June 25, 2018, 13:40   #26
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Army photo, late 67, early 68, RVN

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This is how Airborne troops do it!




This should help on your build project.
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Old June 25, 2018, 17:51   #27
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You all need to take a look at The History and Development of the M16 Rifle and its Cartridge by Hughes.

Ball or stick has nothing to do with it. The issue is that no powder could reliably meet all of the specs put down by the USG.

Late in the development of the 5.56 cartridge .gov decided they wanted 100fps more while not changing the upper limit on the chamber and port pressure specs.

For test lots, DuPont (IMR stick) could cherry pick powder lots that would give the MV without exceeding the pressure specs.

When it came time to bid the first production lot, DuPont simply did not bid the contract because they could not produce the magic powder in such volume. Other powders had to be found.

Any reloader will tell you that the way to get more MV with the same chamber pressure is to use a "slower" powder. This raises the pressure at the gas port and the result was high port pressures, overcycling and jams. Rifles exceeding the cyclic rate were accepted on waivers.

The issue with ball powder gunking up gas tubes is a separate issue. The mfg. (Olin?) used a alkali calcium compound to neutralize acids and stabilize the powder. This was the what plugged up the tubes. When the issue was discovered the amount used was reduced and the problem went away. Good article in some 1978 American Rifleman about it.
David R. Hughes was a personal friend and fellow pilot. He did amazing work on the book. He was Combat Air Control and was issued the M-16 early in its development in Veet-Nam. Tragic loss when the Paris Jet in which he was a passenger (with no access to controls) went in at Orange County when the pilot neglected to remove the small step ladder which FOD'd the engine.

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Old June 25, 2018, 18:18   #28
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Thanks I thought A2 was the change to the assist and A3 was the rail.
No, the 601, 602, were the "Colt/ Artmalite AR-15 .223" marked early Vietnam (marked with only 01,02, etc..) 603, and 604 for Army. Then some XM-16E1s (forward assist) 1966? Not sure when the E1 was dropped to just M16.. Then marked M16A1 in '67, then A1. I was issued an M16A1 in basic, and a few months later my Ranger Battalion was the first unit to get the A2s (1986). Marines already had them. Airforce used the 601 through the early 90s, with the barrels replaced from 1:14 and furniture changed. Hydromatic Anyone?

Just had this argument with some doufus who insisted that the AR-15 was "never a military rifle". Despite me posting all kinds of photos of USAF, Navy (SEALs), and Army SF with slabside 601s
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Old June 25, 2018, 18:33   #29
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I remember that accident, did the pilot live and who was he? Isn't it off shoot of the Fouga dog whistle?
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Old June 25, 2018, 19:10   #30
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Army photo, late 67, early 68, RVN

173rd

This is how Airborne troops do it!




This should help on your build project.
I built one just like this with a kit from Sportsman's Guide. It's on a DPMS lower and I ended up using a Govt. profile barrel from Del Ton... Not correct, but its a good, fun shooter.
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Old June 25, 2018, 19:18   #31
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I built one just like this with a kit from Sportsman's Guide. It's on a DPMS lower and I ended up using a Govt. profile barrel from Del Ton... Not correct, but its a good, fun shooter.
They kept giving me one of theirs, along with the helmet, uniform, even the Pall Mal hanging out this grunts mouth, all issued!

Fire fights with a cig hanging out of his mouth, damn those were good days, G-D bless them idiots, one and all!
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Old June 25, 2018, 20:58   #32
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Slaughter
I remember that accident, did the pilot live and who was he? Isn't it off shoot of the Fouga dog whistle?
All 3 aboard perished when the Paris Jet stalled/spun into a warehouse. No fatalaties on the ground. Never knew the PIC or the woman in right seat. Details on old LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/1996-12-..._1_plane-crash

Don't think the Paris jet was an off-shoot. The original compted against Fouga and Fouga won the contract for the trainer. Morane Saulnier - converted their aircraft to a 4-seat liaison type. GROSSLY underpowered.

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Old June 26, 2018, 00:22   #33
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Hydromatic Anyone?
..



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Just had this argument with some doufus who insisted that the AR-15 was "never a military rifle". Despite me posting all kinds of photos of USAF, Navy (SEALs), and Army SF with slabside 601s
......

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You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
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Old June 26, 2018, 06:01   #34
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Well,

Almost 20 years ago at the Ft Knox consolidated arms room I was assigned to do the monthly inventory. Thousands of weapons, but I ran into several Hydromatic A1 lowers that had been restamped to A2 and given new uppers. Saw several M-79s as well.

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Old June 26, 2018, 07:40   #35
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Did they continue to use the slickside M16, concurrently with the forward assist version, throughout teh Vietnam War? Or were they withdrawn and held in reserve, etc?
In short, the USAF used the slick side M16 almost absolutely until they changed to the M16A2 as I understand it. They started getting the A2(s) in 1986.

I was in the USAF from 1982-1986 and stationed in the Netherlands the whole time. I saw about 85%+ older M16A1 slicksides being used but I did see a slight few M16A1 models with FWD assist and these were almost exclusively newer models. Typically the USAF refused to use the FWD assist and I never knew why. My understanding is that during the USAF tenure in Vietnam they did not use anything other than slickside weapons. I don't know anything about the other branches of the armed forces.

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Old June 26, 2018, 08:39   #36
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Well,

Almost 20 years ago at the Ft Knox consolidated arms room I was assigned to do the monthly inventory. Thousands of weapons, but I ran into several Hydromatic A1 lowers that had been restamped to A2 and given new uppers. Saw several M-79s as well.

Thorack
I was with an SF unit training USAF SPs for deployment to Panama right after Operation Just (be)Cause / "I am not a Wimp"

That's where I saw some weird ARs. Wish I had my camera. While I'd heard of US Postal meter and Saginaw Gear Company, and Rockola, and Singer sewing machines (to name a few non-standard gun part producers), Hydramatic was a new one on me.

Oh, they had XM-203s, pull-cock.
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:11   #37
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USAF Weapons

The USAF really doesn't care too much about small arms. They will recycle EVERYTHING they can when it comes to the M16 platform and will not hesitate to save money by approving the limited use of "prototypes" and "experimental configurations", etc.,

For example ...

When I was assigned to the 32nd. TFS at Camp New Amsterdam, NL from 1982-1986 I saw M16(s) with various shades of gray receivers, a few FWD assists (when the USAF notoriously refused the FWD assist) but mostly slicksides, A2 flash hiders (I don't recall seeing ANY A1 3-prongs at all), under-mounted M203(s) and those that were independently mounted on their own stock (I forget that model number now - those with the funky wood stocks they called the "thumpers), .38 revolvers and no other handguns, 20 rd. mags only, never any use of blanks.

Strangely (but all too notable) I saw two (2) carbines that had the large round double-shield handgaurds and the M4-type 4-position collapsable stocks. These hand guards and this type of stock (some folks call it the "waffle" stock but they were NOT the plastic N4 or older metal smoothies from the Vietnam era) were not to be used in mass production for years. I know this for sure because I held them in my hands. Neither of these had the moderators but both had the A2 flash hiders. These were assigned to E-5 SSgt. or above only.

Odd that I never saw one of the GAU5/5A models (or XM177E models) and never saw any of the older "moderators" ever being used.

I did see model 870 riot shotguns being used by E-6(s) and above from time to time. This was during exercises and alerts.

Yes indeed it was an interesting time.
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:17   #38
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I don't recall seeing any GM Hydramatic roll marked receivers during my time in. I do recall seeing some triangular handguards marked with "Made in USA by Mattel" (yes the toy company) and these handguards were somewhat older.

I can tell you though that I have seen at least one of these receivers in the museum in Danang, Vietnam and Khe San, Vietnam. The museum in Danang has more than one and one of those has wired-up bamboo handguards that replaced what were once the triangular handguards on that weapon. I think these were weapons left behind by evacuating ARVN troops when the North stormed the South on the final push back in April of 75.
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:28   #39
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Originally Posted by GRA556 View Post
The USAF really doesn't care too much about small arms. They will recycle EVERYTHING they can when it comes to the M16 platform and will not hesitate to save money by approving the limited use of "prototypes" and "experimental configurations", etc.,

For example ...

When I was assigned to the 32nd. TFS at Camp New Amsterdam, NL from 1982-1986 I saw M16(s) with various shades of gray receivers, a few FWD assists (when the USAF notoriously refused the FWD assist) but mostly slicksides, A2 flash hiders (I don't recall seeing ANY A1 3-prongs at all), under-mounted M203(s) and those that were independently mounted on their own stock (I forget that model number now - those with the funky wood stocks they called the "thumpers), .38 revolvers and no other handguns, 20 rd. mags only, never any use of blanks.

Strangely (but all too notable) I saw two (2) carbines that had the large round double-shield handgaurds and the M4-type 4-position collapsable stocks. These hand guards and this type of stock (some folks call it the "waffle" stock but they were NOT the plastic N4 or older metal smoothies from the Vietnam era) were not to be used in mass production for years. I know this for sure because I held them in my hands. Neither of these had the moderators but both had the A2 flash hiders. These were assigned to E-5 SSgt. or above only.

Odd that I never saw one of the GAU5/5A models (or XM177E models) and never saw any of the older "moderators" ever being used.

I did see model 870 riot shotguns being used by E-6(s) and above from time to time. This was during exercises and alerts.

Yes indeed it was an interesting time.

I believe the grenade launchers you referred to were probably M79s
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:42   #40
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I do recall seeing some triangular handguards marked with "Made in USA by Mattel" (yes the toy company) and these handguards were somewhat older.
You are either delusional or a liar.
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Old June 26, 2018, 10:33   #41
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You are either delusional or a liar.
Yepper, never seen nothing marked Mattel on anything firearms related at any time over 24 years, from 60's to 90's.

We did have some neat comic books on care and feeding of M16's, all politically incorrect in today's lexicon, but we were also given smokes in C-Rats during that time frame, so life was very good!!!!
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Old June 26, 2018, 10:53   #42
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It is a myth. It NEVER HAPPENED!

Mattel did make a toy 1919. http://i49.tinypic.com/erk3kh.jpg

and allegedly a drill-team plastic stocks for the JROTC 1903 . I remember the plastic stocks from JROTC. It was a heavy plastic with grain, but not bakelite. I do not remember any Mattel markings.

M16? Never. Company even published a letter denying it.


They did make a toy M16, the Marauder http://www.imfdb.org/images/1/1e/MattelMarauder1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1fLfhOwRii...der-mattel.gif

Which John Wayne smashed against a tree in The Green Berets
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/2/.../601px-Gb9.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/b/...reenB_3039.jpg
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Old June 26, 2018, 10:58   #43
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It is a myth. It NEVER HAPPENED!

Mattel did make a toy 1919. http://i49.tinypic.com/erk3kh.jpg

and allegedly a drill-team plastic stocks for the JROTC 1903 . I remember the plastic stocks from JROTC. It was a heavy plastic with grain, but not bakelite. I do not remember any Mattel markings.

M16? Never. Company even published a letter denying it.


They did make a toy M16, the Marauder http://www.imfdb.org/images/1/1e/MattelMarauder1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1fLfhOwRii...der-mattel.gif

Which John Wayne smashed against a tree in The Green Berets
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/2/.../601px-Gb9.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/b/...reenB_3039.jpg

Most folks never noticed that huge ass 20??? round curved magazine in that thing Big John smashed either.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:18   #44
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You are either delusional or a liar.
I know what I saw. It was on the handguards. I'm not going to argue about it neither.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:21   #45
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Yepper, never seen nothing marked Mattel on anything firearms related at any time over 24 years, from 60's to 90's.

We did have some neat comic books on care and feeding of M16's, all politically incorrect in today's lexicon, but we were also given smokes in C-Rats during that time frame, so life was very good!!!!
OK ... so YOU never saw it but I did. I saw it one the triangular handguards and there was more than one set like that.

Companies are contracted all the time to produce parts. Have for years. I have no reason to lie about any of this. Believe what you want.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:30   #46
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I know what I saw. It was on the handguards. I'm not going to argue about it neither.
Then ya came to the wrong place for a conversation then!
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:37   #47
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OK ... so YOU never saw it but I did. I saw it one the triangular handguards and there was more than one set like that.

Companies are contracted all the time to produce parts. Have for years. I have no reason to lie about any of this. Believe what you want.
Those of us that carried these things in those time frames are pretty damn good at knowing what was true and what was bullshit.

Kinda like a master mechanic knowing where each single tool in his tool boxes came from, exactly how they are marked, changes made to design over the decades, etc.

Now you may in fact have seen something all the rest of us somehow missed, but around here, be prepared to be called out when you say something without being able to back it up.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, show all of us something we missed, post up a picture, detail out when a run on these guards were done, when, where, who used them, and how we all missed it.

And welcome to FF.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:50   #48
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Those of us that carried these things in those time frames are pretty damn good at knowing what was true and what was bullshit.

Kinda like a master mechanic knowing where each single tool in his tool boxes came from, exactly how they are marked, changes made to design over the decades, etc.

Now you may in fact have seen something all the rest of us somehow missed, but around here, be prepared to be called out when you say something without being able to back it up.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, show all of us something we missed, post up a picture, detail out when a run on these guards were done, when, where, who used them, and how we all missed it.

And welcome to FF.
I don't really care whether you believe me or not. It aint like I joined the conversation to impress you or anyone else. I just chimed in like other people do and will do so again when I feel like doing so. I've mentioned this more than a half dozen times since the 80(s). My story aint never changed none. Never will. I've been called out on the carbines I described before too. I know what I held in my hand.

But if you're so easily impressed on something that according to you I'm allegedly lying about then that lets me know that I can sure have a lot of fun here in the future. . By all means call me out on anything and everything you want. It's your time and effort spent not mine. . I'm not going to waste my time and efforts lying or arguing about anything here. Nothing is that important.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:53   #49
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I don't really care whether you believe me or not. It aint like I joined the conversation to impress you or anyone else. I just chimed in like other people do and will do so again when I feel like doing so. I've mentioned this more than a half dozen times since the 80(s). My story aint never changed none. Never will. I've been called out on the carbines I described before too. I know what I held in my hand.

But if you're so easily impressed on something that according to you I'm allegedly lying about then that lets me know that I can sure have a lot of fun here in the future. . By all means call me out on anything and everything you want. It's your time and effort spent not mine. . I'm not going to waste my time and efforts lying or arguing about anything here. Nothing is that important.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:57   #50
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LOL ... none asked nor needed. By all means feel free to nurse this all day
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