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Old April 16, 2019, 08:12   #51
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France has had a long term problem with people burning their churches to the ground for a long time now.

Could this be an accident, sure.

Better "chance" it was burned on purpose.

If it was burned on purpose, by certain folks, all hell is about to break out in France.

It was not that far, from where 140 people were murdered.
Yep. They French have learned from the British . They will fart in the goat-rapers general direction. That will make them very angry.

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Old April 16, 2019, 08:41   #52
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Macron says they will rebuild it. With what? Prefab? Where will they find the skilled artisans alive today that can match the artistry and innovation that went into the design and construction of that marvelous edifice? I don't believe it can ever be duplicated.
It's been done before. York Minster was rebuilt after a fire. Cologne got blasted in WW2 and was rebuilt. It won't be exactly the same but I think they can do something if they want to.
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Old April 16, 2019, 08:45   #53
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Incorrect. Hitler ordered Paris to be leveled and burnt to the ground including all monuments. Dietrich von Choltitz, General of Infantry, Governor of Paris for the German military- declined. Instead he surrendered control of the city to the French Resistance, thus saving Paris from total destruction.

"General von Choltitz later claimed in his memoir of 1951 that he defied Hitler's order to destroy Paris because he loved the city and had decided that Hitler was by then insane."

"On 1 August 1944, Choltitz was promoted to General der Infanterie, and on 7 August was appointed as the military governor of Paris. At a meeting in Germany the following day, Hitler instructed him to be prepared to leave no Parisian religious building or historical monument standing. After Choltitz's arrival in Paris on 9 August, Hitler confirmed the order by cable: "The city must not fall into the enemy's hand except lying in complete rubble."[5] A week later Hitler, in a rage, screamed, "Brennt Paris?" ("Is Paris burning?")[6][7][a]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz
At the end of the war yes, he did. High on pretty much every sort of drug known to man at the time he did order Paris leveled as part of his 'scorched earth' policy. But at the beginning of the war when Nazi power was at its height in the summer of 1940 he announced that he would leave it alone after his famous tour in the early morning hours. He acknowledged it's architectural beauty and significance (a rarity for him) and only announced that the new Berlin would outclass it.

Hitler was his more rational self in 1940, or at least as rational as he ever was. By the time he ordered the scorched earth approach he was pretty much fully detached, few were listening and even fewer were acting on it. Speer for example countermanded pretty much all of it that he could. The garrisons in Paris flatly refused to comply with the 'burn it down' order. And it's worth noting that the 'burn it down' order also applied to all the infrastructure within Germany itself, the factories of the Ruhr, the shipyards, docks, bridges, power plants, substations, mills, farms, railroad facilities, everything. The order to burn Paris was just more of this.
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Old April 16, 2019, 09:30   #54
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Everyone in Paris knows what happened. The Cathedral stood for centuries, until some "workmen" lit her up, intentionally.

Unless someone can prove that after 800 years, that it was clear air turbulence and clear weather lightning, that finally got it, after hundreds if not thousands of other lightning strikes................. this is all quite likely, a planned Islamic act of terrorism just before Easter.
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Old April 16, 2019, 09:34   #55
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"On 1 August 1944, Choltitz was promoted to General der Infanterie, and on 7 August was appointed as the military governor of Paris. At a meeting in Germany the following day, Hitler instructed him to be prepared to leave no Parisian religious building or historical monument standing. After Choltitz's arrival in Paris on 9 August, Hitler confirmed the order by cable: "The city must not fall into the enemy's hand except lying in complete rubble."[5] A week later Hitler, in a rage, screamed, "Brennt Paris?" ("Is Paris burning?")[6][7][a]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz
I'm inclined to reread Collins & LaPierre's Is Paris Burning after this. Freedom at Midnight from the same authors does a good job of explaining the genesis of all the India-Pakistan troubles since partition.
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Old April 16, 2019, 10:17   #56
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Yep. They French have learned from the British . They will fart in the goat-rapers general direction. That will make them very angry.

Jarhead
Maybe, I have some small amount of hope they would have more pride in themselves, but gotta admit, I would not bet against you.

If this was done on purpose, and does not act as a major triggering event for them to wake up, they are lost for all time.

We'll see soon enough.
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Old April 16, 2019, 12:04   #57
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THere are reports today from 'French authories' that nobody was actually working in or around the place when the fire started.

not sure who those officials are...but check the latest on Gateway Pundit.


ALso - FOX news cut off and stopped interviews twice with guests on live tv who started to imply the possibility of muslim terrorism, based on all the other muslim attacks on churches and targets in France over the past several years....
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Old April 16, 2019, 12:38   #58
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I just heard on the news that there are dozens of fire investigators who will determine the cause... other than muslim terrorism. The government has already announced that terrorism wasn't the cause. *eyeroll*

If it was terrorism, and fire investigators find evidence of it, I doubt we will ever hear it said.
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Old April 16, 2019, 12:38   #59
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THere are reports today from 'French authories' that nobody was actually working in or around the place when the fire started.

not sure who those officials are...but check the latest on Gateway Pundit.


ALso - FOX news cut off and stopped interviews twice with guests on live tv who started to imply the possibility of muslim terrorism, based on all the other muslim attacks on churches and targets in France over the past several years....
i saw that. muslims have been burning churches in france for years now, and nobody in power wants to admit it, because the govt owes their asses to bankers who demand that muslims be let in to prop up the shrinking population numbers and become a new commercial borrowing class.
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Old April 16, 2019, 12:49   #60
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I read somebody already pledged 100 million towards rebuilding.

The frame of those gothic churches is like a forest of timber you can't see. I don't know where they will get the wood. Maybe they will use other methods for parts that are out of sight.

http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/en/la.../la-charpente/
It's claimed over 13000 300 to 400 year old Oak trees were harvested to build Notre Dame with much of the beams cut from the core of a single tree.
That wood no longer exists.

Artisans are less of a problem

Other problems
The roof was sheathed in pure Lead
when it burned that poured into the Cathedral. Can you say seriously messed up and contaminated ?

I'm having some issues believing the stained glass survived. That's all lead joinery plus that ancient glass don't survive heat well.

The flying buttresses were part of the load bearing weight transfer structure. Well without the weight of the roof structure those buttresses are now transferring massive pressures against the walls themselves & who knows what the viability of the Stone masonry is after the fire.

These gothic structures while incredibly strong are very much houses of cards, remove one and the whole building loses integrity.
Going to require serious engineering solutions to stabilize it including rerouting traffic, restricting air space, etc to dampen vibrations.

How did it happen ?
I'd say it's way to early to say, we might never know for certain
One truth is 800 year old timber is highly flammable, like kindling...straight tinderbox waiting to burn. All it would take is a spark

They are assuming it was related to the ongoing restorations which seems likely. Could be electrical related frankly.

Something else, it's not simply wacko Islamics attacking Churches
Euro ANTFA types and Anarchists have been doing this trash for decades
Islam is strange about the Madonna. As the virgin Mother of Christ she remains an Islamic figure as well as Christian & Notre Dame is a Madonna Cathedral. Islamics actually would and do make pilgrimages to it

It's one of those things Americans often can't get their heads around

anyways 50/50 it was arson. Could have been a workman dropping an ash of his smoke
or it could have been a nutter
maybe just a sparking power cord...

Sad deal, another thing I am glad I saw before it was destroyed
magnificent structure, well was...

yeah, it can be restored but it won't be close to the same building. The materials don't exist any more.
Not at all certain if pine has the integrity to be used in this manner of Timber framing. Have a buddy who timber frames homes, not asked for his opinion as yet but he has toured many of these ancient structures, marveled at the joinery.
It's actually not near the craft it was 800 years ago. We have precision tools and programs that make it much less of an art today.

My guess would be they will have to do it in advanced precision plyboard beaming, modern fasteners and veneers with plenty of steel & titainium.
Be interesting to see how much the Vatican kicks in on this
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Old April 16, 2019, 14:05   #61
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Most power tools are now battery operated.
Night work, requiring lighting, was not part of the restoration,
Lightning strikes are part of the life of tall structures.

It was a planned strike, not an accident, as the faggot is reporting without any substantiation..............and we should be hearing shortly from some ISIS group, AFTER they are safely back in Belgium or Amsterdam or Germany or Syria.
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Old April 16, 2019, 14:30   #62
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GOOD NEWS !

A medium in France reached out to the spirit of Joan of Arc, asking if she was upset by the events at Notre Dame.





Joan of Arc was reported as replying that she was not put out at all.




.........................
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Old April 16, 2019, 14:38   #63
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GOOD NEWS !

A medium in France reached out to the spirit of Joan of Arc, asking if she was upset by the events at Notre Dame.





Joan of Arc was reported as replying that she was not put out at all.




.........................
that's just awful humor
but I do appreciate it
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Old April 16, 2019, 14:52   #64
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Short video clip from inside Notre Dame.

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/uTfM1Pt
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Old April 16, 2019, 15:12   #65
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Short video clip from inside Notre Dame.

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/uTfM1Pt
Not nearly as bad as I expected
basically the framework burned and the roof dropped
that's a much easier fix in my opinion
temps didn't apparently get high at all inside
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Old April 16, 2019, 15:45   #66
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Not nearly as bad as I expected
basically the framework burned and the roof dropped
that's a much easier fix in my opinion
temps didn't apparently get high at all inside
How true, I expected far worse myself.
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Old April 16, 2019, 15:55   #67
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analysis

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Old April 16, 2019, 16:46   #68
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analysis

He a fookin' Moron
He refuses to believe some worker couldn't have caused all this because "safety law"
Shit you kidding me ?

Workers violate it all the damn time
So work with me here
You are up on the roof scaffolding, birds eye view of Paris you think some workers wont be cracking beers, bottles of Wine and burning one ?
You a damn fool ?
Of course they will be

Classic
mid 90s a few contractors for the NPS got into the Statue of Liberties arm, crawled up into the torch and sat their drinking brews and doing bong hits while snapping pix
Yeah young Men do dumb shit and all the damn time

My guess ?

Workers were inside the roof of the Church smoking up where they were hidden. Rules forbade smoking but guys being guys ignore all that governmental shit don't they
Just a spark set this off, part of the cherry on a cigarette maybe

Think about it folks
The exterior was Stone, Lead, Glass and Copper
to start a fire means internal between the ceiling and actual roof where the timber framing was directly exposed.
You don't do it anywhere else.
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Old April 16, 2019, 17:12   #69
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Fire Dept gave a presentation one time at a place where I worked. It was about how fast fires spread once they got started. It was like minutes before a warehouse was completely on fire.

If they were using any kind of solvent or finish and there was a pile of rags, it could start a fire on it's own.

Old church with all the timber was probably like a big bonfire.
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Old April 16, 2019, 17:32   #70
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I don't buy that a structure of that importance,did not have 24 hour fire watch/security roving over it constantly. People specifically tasked with dealing with this sort of thing. Hell,any state licensed facility I deal with has to do firewatch protocol when ever anything fire related,like the alarm or sprinkler system, is not in 100% working order. And document it.
The ridiculous long response time is also telling.
I wouldn't be surprised if macron himself wasn't involved in it,to deflectattention from his yellow vest problems,and form a perverse national sympathy for him.
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Old April 16, 2019, 17:38   #71
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Sh-t happens though.
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Old April 16, 2019, 18:18   #72
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...
Think about it folks
The exterior was Stone, Lead, Glass and Copper
to start a fire means internal between the ceiling and actual roof where the timber framing was directly exposed.
You don't do it anywhere else.
macaroni declared it an "accident" before the fire hoses were even on the flames.

this is not the only catholic church damaged this year in western europe.

but THIS church getting torched CANNOT be muzzy arson because that would piss people off over being invaded by muzzies.

think about it.
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Old April 16, 2019, 18:41   #73
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Why would they burn it down? It will probably be a m0squ3 eventually anyway.

They did not destroy the H4gla Sofl4. They defaced it and converted it, but preserved the building.
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Old April 16, 2019, 19:28   #74
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Fire Dept gave a presentation one time at a place where I worked. It was about how fast fires spread once they got started. It was like minutes before a warehouse was completely on fire.

If they were using any kind of solvent or finish and there was a pile of rags, it could start a fire on it's own.

Old church with all the timber was probably like a big bonfire.
yeah that too
cousin bought a property with a hewn log cabin on it years ago
he rechinked it all up, refloored it all then started in rubbin linseed over the exposed timber. One summer day...POOF !!!
old place just combusted and burnt to the stones
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Old April 17, 2019, 01:06   #75
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I was just reading there was a similar fire at Chartres cathedral in 1830-something that destroyed the wood frame and the lead roof. It was replaced by iron for the frame and copper in place of the lead, and that's the way it is today.
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Old April 17, 2019, 06:32   #76
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That was my thought to - iron and copper. Not original but it will never be again in any case.
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Old April 17, 2019, 16:41   #77
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Arsonist spotted at point of ignition?

Seems some surveillance camera caught someone on the roof just before it went up in flame - yikes! It's going viral right now!



https://www.blacklistednews.com/arti...otre-dame.html


if determined as arson - well we'll see how it develops!
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Old April 17, 2019, 18:16   #78
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Opps!

There goes the per-programed narrative.
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Old April 17, 2019, 18:31   #79
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Possibly a flash reflection - sun seems to be at the 1030 position, looks like he turns. The flash could be a highlight off of a metal case or something, catching the sun as he turns - or something else altogether! It looks like he then bends down, its too fuzzy to see real detail but he appears to put something down!
No date stamp, would be interesting to see the metadata embed in the video - that might have a date stamp! Which would determine if it was at the right time - see who signed out last perhaps, or whether it was that Guy swinging his 'daughter' inthe other photo thats gone viral also - curious, and curiouser!
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Old April 17, 2019, 19:14   #80
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It was an IED being planted.
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Old April 17, 2019, 19:54   #81
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Opps!

There goes the per-programed narrative.

yeah, you got that right


and from what I heard on national news there was a regular fire watch
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Old April 17, 2019, 21:24   #82
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yeah, you got that right


and from what I heard on national news there was a regular fire watch
No one is saying right now what started the fire, but when around 4 or 5 hundred attacks on churches has occurred in France in the last few years, burning this old girl to the ground is suspicious to say the least.

I'm laughing at the folks saying it was not arson.

Last time I was in France, French ACTIVE duty ARMY Airborne forces, fully kitted out for war, were surrounding and protecting every single Synagogue in the whole country.

Guess they should have put them on the churches too.

France has a serious problem with certain folks, gasoline, and glass bottles.
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Old April 18, 2019, 02:27   #83
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Then there was the kook who apparently was going to burn St. Patricks in NYC yesterday

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ny...cid=spartanntp
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Old April 18, 2019, 08:35   #84
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It is odd that certain gubments seem more intent on protecting and catering to immigrants on their soil, than the indigenous population. Yet are indiscriminate in the ME, in part what Wikileaks is all about - this could be said for the majority of European countries and the USA - of course it would've been worse here under the dems.
There will be a point when the tension becomes too much, I consider that France is approaching the breaking point. Attacking churches, temples and mosques - wherever, is attacking the cultural root of a country. it really does seem that its not a matter of if but a matter of when - it will not be a good day for the non assimilated! Makes one wonder what the Yellow Jackets are pondering on this, if they're that organized!
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Old April 18, 2019, 08:42   #85
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I'm far from an expert, but the last time I saw the Notre Dame, it was in piss poor condition. For all their riches, the Catholic Church sure wasn't spending much on proper ongoing maintenance.
I don't doubt the possibility of terrorism/arson for a moment, but I find negligence on the part of workers equally possible. No one even needed to actually be there - if they were working with linseed or similar oils, spontaneous combustion is a very real possibility, as RSS noted.
If the French goobermint were smart, they'd frame the muzzies and start a new Crusade. What happened to Popes with the balls enough to take care of business ?
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Old April 18, 2019, 09:54   #86
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The Papacy is not what most think it is - primarily it is the Co-option of Catholicism - nascent Christianity. It was co-opted for the elite, and run by them - to this day. If you think the rc church, is 'for' the congregation, it is not - they are only there to sanctify the legacies of the ruling elite - they are only about legitimizing elitist activity, whatever it maybe.
The Vatican encircled within Rome - the list of horrors perp'd by that church is massive, and continues in legitimizing those horrors to this day. Historically it has made it's position quite clear - typically, believe or die, or rot in the dungeon of hell, on Earth.
Vatican position on Immigration - http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...of-peoples.cfm

Hearts and Minds! Organising religions, done so - for specific reasons - hence co-options!
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Old April 18, 2019, 10:13   #87
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........ What happened to Popes with the balls enough to take care of business ?
Oh, that is still taken care of......




............................
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Old April 18, 2019, 11:31   #88
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Angry

Glad I got to see it back in the 1990s, before the tour guides were muzzies... Even then some interior sections were roped off and scaffolded... most cathedrals of this vintage are always under some level of "reno"...

Muzzies have no place in Western Civ--that's a given--OTOH, Duh Secular French Lefties have been quite prone to Catholic church burning since at least La' Revolution, circa 1789...

... and thus Peeps are overlooking the fact that 'Our Lady' was largely rebuilt in the 1800s, with 19th Century technology, not 13th Century crafts. I say rebuild it in a lead-free way using pre-stressed versions of that uber-concrete "Ductal" which Duh Frogs invented, so long as the architectural "effect" is preserved... ANYthing will be LESS FLAMMABLE than its current incarnation.

The next "desecration" we'll see is a huge blue tarp over the mess, since it is now open to the rain, and, say what you will about lead-sheath roofing, it IS waterproof.

PS: I will try to link to some scholarly sources that document the very real concern of De Gaulle & Co. that The Allies would NOT return France to native rule in 1945, but rather set up the same "shared" gov they did in West Germany. Certainly there were fully drawn up plans for such, i's dotted and t's crossed... how would that have been bad?...
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Old April 18, 2019, 11:34   #89
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PS: predicting a MASSIVE spike in the sale of Notre Dame "coffee table" (large format) picture books.

Edit: also predicting the publication of a book titled 'The French Can't Be Trusted With Nice Things' (my Agent is shopping it around today...
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Old April 18, 2019, 12:19   #90
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Oh, that is still taken care of......




............................
Quite right, just not the "biz" I was thinking of. But you knew that
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Old April 18, 2019, 20:39   #91
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Then there was the kook who apparently was going to burn St. Patricks in NYC yesterday

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ny...cid=spartanntp
A college professor too!

That leaves out him being a right wing nutter.
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Old Yesterday, 00:18   #92
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A college professor too!

That leaves out him being a right wing nutter.
PHILOSPHY professor

I have not bothered to research this nutter but often folks who degree out in Philosophy tend to be major nutters Paul. In fact the Best of them are seriously half insane

Some of the clowns we had busted up here for attempting to shut off the natural gas pipeline grid were Philosophy Professors

One of my favorite Profs taught a course in Physic Con. Philosophy mixed with Physics to advance the notion of time or dimensional travel
btw that loon back in the 80s had about every military pattern sporter available, even Valmets and a Swiss STG. All of which I sold him.
Yeah major Gun guy. Yeah very very Conservative
That fun stuff has mostly vanished, replaced by Gender studies curricula.

No question

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