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Old July 15, 2017, 18:19   #251
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Originally Posted by bubbagump View Post
To be clear the debate is not around whether 80 guards is a standing army or whether maintaining one is a good idea or not, it is around whether a standing army is permissible under the constitution. The troll would have us believe that is not ('.. not even supposed to have a standing army ..'), and that maintenance of a standing army is somehow unconstitutional and illegal, when even a casual read clearly indicates otherwise.
The primary drafter of the Constitution, Madison "the Father of the Constitution" as were many others was opposed to a standing army, in a compromise with the federalists an army was permitted with restrictions that the navy didn't have.

It was even suggested a size limitation, but that was canned.

So originally as Madison wrote the Constitution we weren't supposed to have a standing army.
I never said having one was unconstitutional.




..............juanni
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Old July 15, 2017, 18:30   #252
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
The Continental Army was disbanded. With a teeny, tiny exception of 80 men.
This Day In U.S. History November 3, 1783 – After Eight Long Years Of War The Continental Army Is Disbanded
http://www.legacy-america.net/2014/1...-is-disbanded/

You are the kinda guy that will argue the water glass isn't empty because there is still a few molecules of water left.

............juanni
Wrong again, actually can't stand to argue with people.

You made a blanket ass statement, was wrong, also failed, again above, to state the whole truth, because that does not support your position, that the Army was disbanded because the founders only wanted a citizen militia raised by the states because they were terrified of a standing Army.

A continuous serving US Army since its inception in 1775, designed, funded, and controlled by the US Congress and the CINC/POTUS, as the founding fathers of this nation intended and agreed too in the Constitution of the USA.

So what other history will you try and distort to support your position that the US Army and the people who serve in it are illegal, immoral, dense, wrong headed, cannon fodder for the corporations, etc?
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Old July 15, 2017, 18:43   #253
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Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post

You made a blanket ass statement, was wrong,
Nope, even you own links stated 'disbanded'.


Almost like having Bill 'depends on the definition of is' Clinton right here on this forum.






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Old July 15, 2017, 18:48   #254
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
The primary drafter of the Constitution, Madison "the Father of the Constitution" as were many others was opposed to a standing army, in a compromise with the federalists an army was permitted with restrictions that the navy didn't have.

It was even suggested a size limitation, but that was canned.

So originally as Madison wrote the Constitution we weren't supposed to have a standing army.
I never said having one was unconstitutional.

..............juanni
A far cry from 'not permitted', which is what you originally maintained. In fact most definitions will consider 'permitted' to be an antonym for 'not permitted'. Night and day in fact. And to the rest YH's point bears repeating .. if you want to understand history look at what folks did, not so much what they said. Come to think of it that's pretty good advice for evaluating contemporary people too. Right back atcha J ol' pal ..
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Old July 15, 2017, 19:01   #255
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A far cry from 'not permitted', which is what you originally maintained.
Nope, like your assertion that I said unconstitional, I never said "not permitted" either.
In fact, the only person to put the two words not and permitted together in this thread......... was YOU.

You are a perfect example of our failed education system.




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Old July 15, 2017, 19:13   #256
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
Nope, like your assertion that I said unconstitional, I never said "not permitted" either.
In fact, the only person to put the two words not and permitted together in this thread......... was YOU.

You are a perfect example of our failed education system.




.............juanni
'Not supposed to have' certainly carries with it 'not permitted', there is no other basis for saying something like that. If something is allowed then that precludes someone from claiming 'its not supposed to be' because it exists. Kinda like someone claiming 'gravity ain't supposed to be' when it clearly does. You may not like gravity, you may personally think it's a mistake and you might even be right about that. But you don't get to say 'it ain't supposed to be' because it is, and observation evidence trumps a good theory every time.

To your 'compromise' where a standing army was permitted within a specific range of parameters, this indicates that enough people thought otherwise to, well, force the compromise. And it's clear from their actions that Madison, Jefferson and almost certainly Adams came to reconsider their opposition to it when forced to deal with the realities of geopolitics.

None of this is rocket science, Public education indeed, laughing my ass off and remember I'm laughing at you, not with you.
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Old July 15, 2017, 19:15   #257
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
The primary drafter of the Constitution, Madison "the Father of the Constitution" as were many others was opposed to a standing army, in a compromise with the federalists an army was permitted with restrictions that the navy didn't have.

It was even suggested a size limitation, but that was canned.

So originally as Madison wrote the Constitution we weren't supposed to have a standing army.
I never said having one was unconstitutional.



..............juanni
From post 248:

I placed the following in that post, suspecting you'd go there with Madison eventually, which you did here.

I did not mark this as to whom wrote it, but guess what, the below and in the original post, was from, wait for it, MADISON!

"""Next to the effectual establishment of the Union, the best possible precaution against danger from standing armies, is a limitation of the term for which revenue may be appropriated to their support. This precaution the Constitution has prudently added. I will not repeat here the observations, which I flatter myself have placed this subject in a just and satisfactory light. But it may not be improper to take notice of an argument against this part of the Constitution, which has been drawn from the policy and practice of Great-Britain. It is said that the continuance of an army in that kingdom, requires an annual vote of the Legislature; whereas the American Constitution has lengthened this critical period to two years. """



The only restriction on the standing Army vs the Navy, was the clause that the Army could not have a budget that went past two years, and the Navy could be budgeted for periods greater than two years.

Keep twisting J, keep twisting.
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Old July 15, 2017, 19:16   #258
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Originally Posted by brunop View Post
I'm not that interested in getting involved in the Juanni vs. Everybody debate about what a "standing army" is, or whether there was supposed to be one, BUT...

disbanding everything except for 80 guards to watch the artillery supplies at West Point is not a "standing army". Is NOT.

And if that is to be twisted into "That IS a standing army", then are we agreeing that a "standing army" isn't for protection of the state? Because 80 guys can't protect anything.
When all you got to hang your hat on is bickering over the word disbanded and pretending that 80 guys are an army, that is what you go with.


Whereas Bubbs prefers to claim I stated things I never did and then attack my position I never had.




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Old July 15, 2017, 19:21   #259
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
...
Whereas Bubbs prefers to claim I stated things I never did and then attack my position I never had.

................juanni
For the record, grammatical mistakes included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanni View Post
Bubba believes teachers share a large portion for the blame for a failed education system.

Failing to achieve it's core function, teaching kids the necessary skills at an appropriate cost.
And I agree, if you are going to join a clearly failing organization, knowing that you personally aren't going to make any significant change to that failing institution, well a bigger portion of the blame for maintaining the status quo falls on you.
You are actively supporting it.

Likewise if you voluntarily join the US military, that isn't even supposed to have a standing army, that is perpetually at war with someone or another where we never win anything, that is massively inept/corrupt in it's waste and spending you also share a bigger portion of the blame for maintaining the failing status quo.

Bubba disagrees.

Clear enough?




................juanni
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Old July 15, 2017, 19:21   #260
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
When all you got to hang your hat on is bickering over the word disbanded and pretending that 80 guys are an army, that is what you go with.


Whereas Bubbs prefers to claim I stated things I never did and then attack my position I never had.




................juanni

There you go again!

Leaving off, the immediate call up of 700 regulars, which would go on to continue the uninterrupted service of the US Army since 1775!
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Old July 15, 2017, 19:25   #261
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Originally Posted by bubbagump View Post
For the record, grammatical mistakes included.
Yep, he sure as hell went there!!!!

"" Originally Posted by juanni View Post
Bubba believes teachers share a large portion for the blame for a failed education system.

Failing to achieve it's core function, teaching kids the necessary skills at an appropriate cost.
And I agree, if you are going to join a clearly failing organization, knowing that you personally aren't going to make any significant change to that failing institution, well a bigger portion of the blame for maintaining the status quo falls on you.
You are actively supporting it.

Likewise if you voluntarily join the US military, that isn't even supposed to have a standing army, that is perpetually at war with someone or another where we never win anything, that is massively inept/corrupt in it's waste and spending you also share a bigger portion of the blame for maintaining the failing status quo.

Bubba disagrees.

Clear enough?

................juanni

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Old July 15, 2017, 19:28   #262
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'Not supposed to have' certainly carries with it 'not permitted', there is no other basis for saying something like that. If something is allowed then that precludes someone from claiming 'its not supposed to be' because it exists. Kinda like someone claiming 'gravity ain't supposed to be' when it clearly does. You may not like gravity, you may personally think it's a mistake and you might even be right about that. But you don't get to say 'it ain't supposed to be' because it is, and observation evidence trumps a good theory every time.

To your 'compromise' where a standing army was permitted within a specific range of parameters, this indicates that enough people thought otherwise to, well, force the compromise. And it's clear from their actions that Madison, Jefferson and almost certainly Adams came to reconsider their opposition to it when forced to deal with the realities of geopolitics.

None of this is rocket science, Public education indeed, laughing my ass off and remember I'm laughing at you, not with you.
1st draft of the Constitution.

The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;.....

To raise armies;
To build and equip fleets;
To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions;

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/...(august-6).php

You don't need to raise armies (plural for a reason, they would be raised and disbanded as needed) if you already have a standing army.

That morphed into the final draft with the restrictions on funding etc..

You will also notice the significant role of the now non existent state militias.





...............juanni
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Old July 15, 2017, 19:38   #263
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
1st draft of the Constitution.

The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;.....

To raise armies;
To build and equip fleets;
To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions;

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/...(august-6).php

You don't need to raise armies (plural for a reason, they would be raised and disbanded as needed) if you already have a standing army.

That morphed into the final draft with the restrictions on funding etc..

You will also notice the significant role of the now non existent state militias.

...............juanni

Seeing you are struggling with this, will give you some help with the following.

You are reading this as you wish in today's terms to support your argument, which is baseless and wrong, but in the terminology of that time frame;

""You don't need to raise armies (plural for a reason, they would be raised and disbanded as needed) if you already have a standing army.""

Armies was plural then, because different size forces, which constituted the combined military of the time, were named, as in, The Army of the Potomac , the Army of Northern Virginia, fame.

Since "Armies" were named, after rejoins from whence they came, it would be correct in that days vernacular to say, Armies, vs Army.

It was corrected and changed I believe after or during the civil war, because it was so damned confusing, to just a number designation.

Like Patton's so called 2nd Army, which in fact, was just the 2nd Army that was commanded by Patton for a period of time.
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Old July 15, 2017, 20:59   #264
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But what about education??😩
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Old July 15, 2017, 21:13   #265
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But what about education??😩
2+2=4
Washington was our first president.
The US Army has been in continuous service to the nation, even before the nation was formed and since.
Sophia Loren is hot!
FAL type rifles are far superior to M14's.
Did I forget anything important?
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Old July 16, 2017, 00:48   #266
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Seeing you are struggling with this, will give you some help with the following.

You are reading this as you wish in today's terms to support your argument, which is baseless and wrong, but in the terminology of that time frame;

""You don't need to raise armies (plural for a reason, they would be raised and disbanded as needed) if you already have a standing army.""

Armies was plural then, because different size forces, which constituted the combined military of the time, were named, as in, The Army of the Potomac , the Army of Northern Virginia, fame.

Since "Armies" were named, after rejoins from whence they came, it would be correct in that days vernacular to say, Armies, vs Army.

It was corrected and changed I believe after or during the civil war, because it was so damned confusing, to just a number designation.

Like Patton's so called 2nd Army, which in fact, was just the 2nd Army that was commanded by Patton for a period of time.
Yer wasting your time with J. Once he clamps down he doesn't let go.
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Old July 16, 2017, 04:09   #267
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Yer wasting your time with J. Once he clamps down he doesn't let go.
I know.
Was going to say to him, that one definition of a country, during that time frame and even to this day, was its ability to draw recognized borders and then defend them with a national Army, but figured he might pop a rivet, had I'd done that.
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Old July 16, 2017, 04:53   #268
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
1st draft of the Constitution.

The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;.....

To raise armies;
To build and equip fleets;
To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions;

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/...(august-6).php

1.You don't need to raise armies (plural for a reason, they would be raised and disbanded as needed) if you already have a standing army.

2. That morphed into the final draft with the restrictions on funding etc..

You will also notice the significant role of the now non existent state militias.

...............juanni
1. Yeah, you do. Used to have something called a 'draft', as I recall it had something to do with 'raising an army' during the civil war, world war once, world war twice, korea, vietnam, and other little adventures you are probably not too familiar with.

2. First draft was rejected. Rejected. Say it again, rejected. This means it was not accepted or in force. Knock knock, hello, anyone home?

... public schools indeed
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Old July 16, 2017, 10:38   #269
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http://www.mrctv.org/blog/new-chicag...oved-life-plan

New Chicago Rule: NO High School Graduation Without Government-Approved "Life Plan"


Under the wise and cosmic eye of his Holy Mighty Highness, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, the wondrous government of Chicago has carried through with a threat – er, “plan” – to stop all city high schoolers from graduating if they don’t have their own, government-approved “plan” for life upon graduation."
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Old July 16, 2017, 11:26   #270
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I grew up in a country with a draft, even though this country was NOT at war at the time I served.

I am generally on the fence about draft. In a way it is a good thing, teaching kids a thing or two to put certain matters into the proper perspective.

The other thing is, why should there be a draft when there is no need? If the country is not at war, let people go about their normal business.

A standing army is a good thing to have, but nowadays can be an expensive matter, as all the weapons and technology are not really cheap.

Militia being self sustained, they are a thing of the past.
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Old July 16, 2017, 11:26   #271
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http://www.mrctv.org/blog/new-chicag...oved-life-plan

New Chicago Rule: NO High School Graduation Without Government-Approved "Life Plan"


Under the wise and cosmic eye of his Holy Mighty Highness, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, the wondrous government of Chicago has carried through with a threat – er, “plan” – to stop all city high schoolers from graduating if they don’t have their own, government-approved “plan” for life upon graduation."
That dude should be fired....
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Old July 16, 2017, 14:03   #272
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I grew up in a country with a draft, even though this country was NOT at war at the time I served.

I am generally on the fence about draft. In a way it is a good thing, teaching kids a thing or two to put certain matters into the proper perspective.

The other thing is, why should there be a draft when there is no need? If the country is not at war, let people go about their normal business.

A standing army is a good thing to have, but nowadays can be an expensive matter, as all the weapons and technology are not really cheap.

Militia being self sustained, they are a thing of the past.
It (the draft) has it's advantages. First of which is everyone gets some skin in the game. Secondly it doesn't require writing checks that won't clear. Thirdly it reduces the number of 'professional' soldiers to something that can be maintained, preventing periodic layoffs in the armed forces which send an awful lot of training into mercenary circles. Fourth it tends to drive the ones we don't want into places like Canada.

I'll admit I'm a bit on the fence about #3 myself. And the disadvantages are obvious.

It's worth mentioning that while the Militia served an important role in the 1776 revolt they were not decisive in any battle or campaign insofar as a battlefield asset is concerned. The task of out-fighting and eventually defeating the British regulars fell to the Continental army and, in no small measure, the French.
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Old July 16, 2017, 14:34   #273
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It (the draft) has it's advantages. First of which is everyone gets some skin in the game. Secondly it doesn't require writing checks that won't clear. Thirdly it reduces the number of 'professional' soldiers to something that can be maintained, preventing periodic layoffs in the armed forces which send an awful lot of training into mercenary circles. Fourth it tends to drive the ones we don't want into places like Canada.

I'll admit I'm a bit on the fence about #3 myself. And the disadvantages are obvious.

It's worth mentioning that while the Militia served an important role in the 1776 revolt they were not decisive in any battle or campaign insofar as a battlefield asset is concerned. The task of out-fighting and eventually defeating the British regulars fell to the Continental army and, in no small measure, the French.
I served in both, a draft Army and an all volunteer force.
Far better with an all volunteer force, far less dead Americans.
Six months training, 12 month tour of combat, early release upon return to states, just not enough time to get soldiers prepared for combat, which always leads to higher casualty rates.
"Dumping" draftees onto our streets after a combat tour, leads to higher rates of PTSD, homelessness, drug use, just problems of all kinds.
The way things are today, with the advanced weapon systems and sheer destructive power of our forces, the need for a huge ass call up will most likely never be needed again.
A good thing.
People forget or never really knew, we used to have a slew of 1000 bed military hospital all over this country, all full with wounded service members.
A draft Army would return us to those days.
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Old July 16, 2017, 15:38   #274
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I served in both, a draft Army and an all volunteer force.
Far better with an all volunteer force, far less dead Americans.
Six months training, 12 month tour of combat, early release upon return to states, just not enough time to get soldiers prepared for combat, which always leads to higher casualty rates.
"Dumping" draftees onto our streets after a combat tour, leads to higher rates of PTSD, homelessness, drug use, just problems of all kinds.
The way things are today, with the advanced weapon systems and sheer destructive power of our forces, the need for a huge ass call up will most likely never be needed again.
A good thing.
People forget or never really knew, we used to have a slew of 1000 bed military hospital all over this country, all full with wounded service members.
A draft Army would return us to those days.
Yup, there's that. The downside (to the draft).
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Old July 16, 2017, 16:49   #275
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Yup, there's that. The downside (to the draft).
AND, there are many people who would just not be worth the damned effort required in a draft time Army!

As in, far better to work short handed, than with the wrong type of people.
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Old July 16, 2017, 18:55   #276
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Seeing you are struggling with this, will give you some help with the following.

You are reading this as you wish in today's terms to support your argument, which is baseless and wrong, but in the terminology of that time frame;

""You don't need to raise armies (plural for a reason, they would be raised and disbanded as needed) if you already have a standing army.""

Armies was plural then, because different size forces, which constituted the combined military of the time, were named, as in, The Army of the Potomac , the Army of Northern Virginia, fame.

Since "Armies" were named, after rejoins from whence they came, it would be correct in that days vernacular to say, Armies, vs Army.

It was corrected and changed I believe after or during the civil war, because it was so damned confusing, to just a number designation.

Like Patton's so called 2nd Army, which in fact, was just the 2nd Army that was commanded by Patton for a period of time.

Sure.
Find just 1 bill Congress in the 1st 40 years of our nation that specifically funded a specific army vs The Army.




................juanni
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Old July 16, 2017, 19:18   #277
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Sure.
Find just 1 bill Congress in the 1st 40 years of our nation that specifically funded a specific army vs The Army.




................juanni


Locate one photograph of an actual UFO alien smoking a cigar and drinking a little Jack Daniels by a lake shore.
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Old July 16, 2017, 20:51   #278
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2+2=4
Washington was our first president.
The US Army has been in continuous service to the nation, even before the nation was formed and since.
Sophia Loren is hot!
FAL type rifles are far superior to M14's.
Did I forget anything important?
Well Washington simply was NOT the first President YH, that's more fake history pushed by "educators" who would rather ignore the Presidents before George.

I'd well wager Washington himself would have taken great issue with the title

I agree with everything else though and yeah Sophia was extremely Smokin' HOT
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Old July 16, 2017, 21:04   #279
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Well Washington simply was NOT the first President YH, that's more fake history pushed by "educators" who would rather ignore the Presidents before George.

I'd well wager Washington himself would have taken great issue with the title

I agree with everything else though and yeah Sophia was extremely Smokin' HOT
Thanks for chiming in and battling those revisionist historians. I'm not sure how we'd get along without you. You are a blessing to this place and we are thankful to God almighty you are here to educate us.
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Old July 16, 2017, 21:14   #280
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AND, there are many people who would just not be worth the damned effort required in a draft time Army!

As in, far better to work short handed, than with the wrong type of people.
While I generally agree with your views on the Draft there are some things too look at YH.

Up here we pretty much had a one Man draft board.
It was largely used to get rid of certain local kids, largely local hell raisers.

There is a flip side to that though as well
While the Hell Raisers were nothing but trouble to the Armed Forces as they didn't want to be there one bit there was another group.
Criminals
Used to be rank common for give young offenders a choice between Service or Incarceration. One of our late former County LEOs and his brothers were given that option in 1940 after a series of car thefts and armed robberies. They all opted in, became well decorated combat Vets, all three became Law Officers post war.

By the late 70s DoD started limiting the type of folks they would take in, thing is a whole bunch of kids that might have benefited from Camp Pendleton ended up in jail or prisons.

Interestingly DoD did reverse some of this midway through the Sandbox recruiting out of Court Rooms as there just wasn't enough snowflakes opting to serve. They also expanded how old one could be to enlist.

As it stands every Man and Woman we incarcerate costs the people roughly 30K yearly, some much more.
Sure, many are unfit to serve...others not so much.
I tend to see it as a potential win/win for society
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Old July 16, 2017, 21:25   #281
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Thanks for chiming in and battling those revisionist historians. I'm not sure how we'd get along without you. You are a blessing to this place and we are thankful to God almighty you are here to educate us.
yeah I know
you probably teach right out of Irvings Life of Washington replete with the myths of the Cherry Tree and tossing a "Silver Dollar" across the Potomac
Never mind there were NO Silver Dollars when Washington was a young man. Most likely it would have been a Spanish piece which by the way was still recognized for legal trade in America up into the early 1800s.

Simple facts are there were a number of Presidents under the Articles of Confederation Jimmy. Great Men, just forgotten by the History currently taught.
The revisionism started shortly after Washington's passing
a few of the early Presidents lost everything during the Revolution yet you seem to wish to make light of their contributions.

real nice buddy
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Old July 16, 2017, 22:11   #282
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http://www.mrctv.org/blog/new-chicag...oved-life-plan

New Chicago Rule: NO High School Graduation Without Government-Approved "Life Plan"


Under the wise and cosmic eye of his Holy Mighty Highness, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, the wondrous government of Chicago has carried through with a threat – er, “plan” – to stop all city high schoolers from graduating if they don’t have their own, government-approved “plan” for life upon graduation."
That a real ass talking. How about the kids spending time in prisons with a life plan. Or the girls having kids in high school. He needs to wake up what the real problems are in ghetto schools. The city cannot even balance a budget how can they expect kids to afford to go to college with a ghetto income.
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Old July 16, 2017, 22:16   #283
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I was aware of the following, most students of Early American history are.

""President of the United States in Congress Assembled"" I believe is what it was called, as in the title bestowed on several men prior to final ratification of our current Constitution, is not the same as the President of the United States.

Like a lot of things and areas in the formation period of a brand new country, until things become official, early titles mean little to nothing after the official coming out party.

It is an interesting period of American history.
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Old July 16, 2017, 22:40   #284
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That a real ass talking. How about the kids spending time in prisons with a life plan. Or the girls having kids in high school. He needs to wake up what the real problems are in ghetto schools. The city cannot even balance a budget how can they expect kids to afford to go to college with a ghetto income.
Actually it's damn easy for kiddos to go to College or whatever
same with Ex Cons and other so-called "disadvantaged" groups

For example I know of an early Meth cook, high school drop out. Spent a number of years inside who wrote tons of letters to foundations and Universities that ended up with a free ride through Brown University, yeah Ivy League school.
Most are just too lazy...

I used to assist folks, shit drag them nearly kicking and screaming into post public school Ed.
Had a few friends, total retard loadies. Their deal was I can't afford it. I made deals, if I can get you the cash WILL YOU GO ?
most signed on and yeah I got them the cash, not that hard in many States.

There are State as well as Federal programs
MN had a mess of them, Feds have BAT and others.
Bunch of those doper hippies ended up teaching, some of the best educators you could hope for. They all kiss my ass for what little I did for them. I chose carefully, there were a bunch of really bright guys among the pot heads then there were many lost causes I wouldn't waste a breath on.

Many folks get caught in a rut they can't get out of under their own power.
just give up...
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Old July 16, 2017, 22:54   #285
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That a real ass talking. How about the kids spending time in prisons with a life plan. Or the girls having kids in high school. He needs to wake up what the real problems are in ghetto schools. The city cannot even balance a budget how can they expect kids to afford to go to college with a ghetto income.
Education is run by politicions I guess, seems the bueacrats think an 18 year old should know what he wants to do at the end of highschool. Forced to pick something the government approves and you must attend college. Well I guess the schools will like the money.
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Old July 16, 2017, 22:57   #286
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Locate one photograph of an actual UFO alien smoking a cigar and drinking a little Jack Daniels by a lake shore.
Yes well, BOTH are fictitious events.

But I have been doing a bit of refreshing, seems the 1st Congress wasn't too enthusiastic about funding that 1st standing army.
Took Washington imploring Congress to act 3 times before they did, 2 days before the legislative session ended.
They signed off on that 700 man 'standing army' even though that may sound like a MEGA SUPER SIZED ARMY to you, was pretty puny by any standard.
Earlier the British attacked and sacked Washington with a 4,500 man army.
Yeah over 6 times larger than our new standing army.

Wonder how thrilled that 1st Congress would be with our 1.2 trillion defense budget, 20 trillion or so in debt, military allegiances and entanglements all over the world, a 75 year losing streak against some pretty poorly armed and trained adversaries, and 30 million of so alien invaders freely crossing our sovereign borders?





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Old July 16, 2017, 23:16   #287
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I was aware of the following, most students of Early American history are.

""President of the United States in Congress Assembled"" I believe is what it was called, as in the title bestowed on several men prior to final ratification of our current Constitution, is not the same as the President of the United States.

Like a lot of things and areas in the formation period of a brand new country, until things become official, early titles mean little to nothing after the official coming out party.

It is an interesting period of American history.
"several" is usually taken to mean roughly three, there were actually EIGHT starting with Hanson YH

I hear where you are coming from on the Technical Difference lauded by
academics...true Washington was the 1st President under the new Constitution.
Few things though...

You take that tact then soldiers up to the Constitution were not really countable either as members of our Armed Forces. Basically no one counts right ?
only those thus enshrined under Hamiltonian Federalism.

As such it's damn difficult to just write them off when you are actively going on about American military history starting with the Revolution.

The second issue is concerning the very nature of the new Constitution. It did not replace the Confederation, actually it was a thin veneer over it granting central government greater powers to tax and such.
one of the main issues under the Confederation was an utter lack of said powers. Many Rev War Vets were never paid.
was a real hot wet mess post war, became even more heated under the early republic with a number of local rebellions.

It wasn't just the so-called Whiskey Rebellion, there were a mess of others
Armed Vets even marched on Philidelphia post Rev War demanding back pay.
There was Shays rebellion which led Washington who had already retired back into battle and into the White House. There were White Americans who spearheaded Black rebellion as well in the post Colonial period as they felt words mean things.

The Whiskey rebellion is quite misunderstood.
back then it was nearly impossible to ship grain cross country so it was turned into Alcohol which was the base of industry.
Wood finishes, medicines, nearly everything had a booze base. Getting drunked up was a very small part of Alcohol consumption back then
It was a tax on production mostly for industrial usage
think petroleum today...
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Old July 16, 2017, 23:30   #288
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Yes well, BOTH are fictitious events.

But I have been doing a bit of refreshing, seems the 1st Congress wasn't too enthusiastic about funding that 1st standing army.
Took Washington imploring Congress to act 3 times before they did, 2 days before the legislative session ended.
They signed off on that 700 man 'standing army' even though that may sound like a MEGA SUPER SIZED ARMY to you, was pretty puny by any standard.
Earlier the British attacked and sacked Washington with a 4,500 man army.
Yeah over 6 times larger than our new standing army.

...................juanni
No, never once even hinted at believing or saying anything about 700 men being a mega super sized army, only that at that time, our standing army consisted of that number.

A short Battalion, is what it was in today's terms, but it was what consisted of our standing army at that time.

The British "Army" as you listed it, was simply a reinforced Brigade by today's standards.

But, as you yourself said above, it was referred to as an Army back then, just the same as the 700 or so men of that time frame constituted the standing Army of the USA.

Terminology of any given time frame must be used in gaining greater understanding of those time frames under study today.

When you're a brand new country, or even still, not even a recognized country, what you have is simply what you had, at that time, and can't be compared to today's standard, same as today can't be compared to what we will have in say 200 years into the future.

Compared to today, we the USA had a tiny Army back then, today, we have a large standing Army.
They were both, "standing armies" of their respective time frames, today and back in 1780 or so.
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Old July 16, 2017, 23:58   #289
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J, just give it up
I admit being WRONG on this count
A better tact to take is that while post Rev they pretty much eliminated Army the Government went whole hog on Navy, Sailors AND Marines.
The idea was to protect the national borders

As a branch of the military the USMC is seen as predating the Army under Federalism
just why is that...

Real truth ?
nobody was counting night watchmen guarding military magazines
Marines were combat ready troops
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Old July 17, 2017, 06:48   #290
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2+2=4
Washington was our first president, and a pile of S556 for what he did during the Whiskey Rebellion.
The US Army has been in continuous service, albeit in very limited capacity, to the nation, even before the nation was formed and since.
Sophia Loren is old!
FAL type rifles are far superior to M14's, except for the sight radius thing, and having the sling attached to the barrel.
Did I forget anything important?
I think that about covers it.
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Old July 17, 2017, 07:07   #291
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yeah I know
you probably teach right out of Irvings Life of Washington replete with the myths of the Cherry Tree and tossing a "Silver Dollar" across the Potomac
Never mind there were NO Silver Dollars when Washington was a young man. Most likely it would have been a Spanish piece which by the way was still recognized for legal trade in America up into the early 1800s.

Simple facts are there were a number of Presidents under the Articles of Confederation Jimmy. Great Men, just forgotten by the History currently taught.
The revisionism started shortly after Washington's passing
a few of the early Presidents lost everything during the Revolution yet you seem to wish to make light of their contributions.

real nice buddy
Abe Lincoln chopped down the cherry tree ....

Washington threw a silver dollar across the Delaware at the Hessians.

Washington was the first president of the United States, which didn't exist under the Articles of Confederation.
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Old July 17, 2017, 08:16   #292
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Abe Lincoln chopped down the cherry tree ....

Washington threw a silver dollar across the Delaware at the Hessians.

Washington was the first president of the United States, which didn't exist under the Articles of Confederation.
Your point other than the one atop your pointed noggin ?

All are MYTHS Jimmy
and yeah Presidents of the United States existed under the Confederation dumb ass, they just were not quite the same as under Hamilton's Federalism.
Neither was the Army.

So now what Mr. Teacher Mam' ?

You seem to actually believe this "Weekly Reader" horseshit you hand out to kiddos Pyle.

Btw, the 1st Silver Dollar was minted WELL after the Revolution, like mid 1790s fuktard...just what Hessians was Washington tossing your mythical dollar coin at by that point

I really detest academic idiots...

Lincoln & the Cherry Tree ?
shit are you a Retard ???
you must have ate plenty of paint chips as a kid, clear example of somebody who belongs back in food service if you can't even keep your bullshit straight.

http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-e...rry-tree-myth/

no wonder kiddos are so messed up with worthless sacks of mostly juice like you "educating" them

Btw, the United States existed under the Confederation idiot and the REAL founders called it just that
What the heck is wrong with you ?
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:13   #293
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I was incorrect btw, Irving came later, it was that dirtbag Weems who started the revisionist idiocy regarding Washington and later incorporated his trash in school books as an example for kiddos to follow.

Later myths were created about the depot Lincoln's childhood, a Man I view as America's Hitler
Most don't even know FDR was a complete cripple, the Man needed fixed leg braces to stand behind a podium !
It was well known in the 30s, shit I have a FDR Clock where Franklin is controlling the ships wheel around the clock face, turn it around and there are FDRs locked leg braces allowing him to stand upright.

Lincoln was half mad with leaky dick disease, his wife was completely insane from it, Abe was a serious whore monger, scumbag railroad lawyer. He had a tunnel built from the White House to the Whore House across the street during the War between the States.

Andy Jackson today would be best termed a serial killer given the number of knife duels he was in and he persisted in that after such things were made unlawful.

The Adams boys were straight up Criminals
Don't get me started on dirtbag Grant

Growing up I had a high opinion of Teddy Roosevelt until I started reading his books
The Fuk was hard core into Eugenics and actively supported sterilization of inferiors.
another scumbag...
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:20   #294
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http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColC...lar.intro.html

Lots of dollars in the colonies during Washington's era...
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:23   #295
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Andy Jackson today would be best termed a serial killer given the number of knife duels he was in and he persisted in that after such things were made unlawful.

He knew how to treat the British, it seems.

The Fuk was hard core into Eugenics and actively supported sterilization of inferiors.
another scumbag...
Are you sure that's not a good idea?
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:33   #296
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:53   #297
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http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColC...lar.intro.html

Lots of dollars in the colonies during Washington's era...
Understand "dollar" is a very generic term in collectors coins
The large Spanish silvers were known as "dollars"
basically if you had a coin of silver weighing roughly an ounce it was a "dollar"
Shillings of the period were well under an ounce in weight.

Early on our early minting was unable to meet demand so up into the early 19th century both Spanish and English coin remained legal tender in the early United States, pretty sure there would have been little issue with French either, there was a shit ton of it to the West until we bought French claims under Jefferson.

Dutch trade dollars are rather uncommon here
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:58   #298
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Understand "dollar" is a very generic term in collectors coins
It's a pretty generic term in legends, as well.

Don't know if Washington did or did not throw the dollar. (I'd say prob not)

But there were silver dollars here, way before then.
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Old July 17, 2017, 10:12   #299
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Have a mess of that Jim
mostly holed or halved/quartered.

btw, thats where we came by the notion of quarters and half dollars.
Folks used to take a knife & hammer to snip ounce silvers up. It's really a rather uniquely North American thing that started in New Spain.
Up through the mid 1770s what came out of the Mexico City mint were "cobs". What they did was to use a hammer and die to pound in the imprints then cobbed off the edges with shears to create the coin.
These were Spanish colonial Reals that were often cut into sections to create half & quarter Reals.
Many folks holed them, pocket change on a stringer, sometimes worn as a necklace, just as often over the shoulder and under a shirt where it was much harder to steal.
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Old July 17, 2017, 10:36   #300
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It's a pretty generic term in legends, as well.

Don't know if Washington did or did not throw the dollar. (I'd say prob not)

But there were silver dollars here, way before then.
The myth was created by Weems, same with the Cherry Tree bullshit Ted
After Washington passed there was a serious effort to transform him into an American Godhead. I mean just crazy shit. One customer of mine is Huge into this, has a wonderful collection of early 18th Century Washington art, a bunch of Masonic crap with George as Moses with the Ten Comandments, even as G-d in the clouds surrounded by the angelic host !
It's a pretty fun hobby for him, the level of propaganda regarding Washington has probably had the man rolling in his grave since he was planted in it.

Have 4 different Washington death "medals". When George passed a whole bunch of capitalists went to town striking "coins", there are dozens of different ones out there.
Frankly I think Washington would have been disgusted by that alone then Weems came along and made up a whole new narrative that persists even today.

This was the very beginning of fake history in this Nation
Yeah tell the kiddos a myth about the Man who like singlehandedly founded the United States who after chopping down that cherry tree with a hatchet would not tell a lie to his father.
Didn't matter the story itself was a blatant lie, it made Weems bucks and was a teaching moment for youngsters.

It's gone big time downhill from there...
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