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Old August 09, 2006, 18:27   #1
Northwoods
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Wolf 308 kaboom

While at the range yesterday I had a Wolf 308 case head separate. It blew the follower,spring and floor plate out along with the rest of the rounds in the mag. The mag bottom was expanded out half an inch like a baloon. I had previously fired 100 rounds of SA and US ball without a hitch. Got a good hot spray of powder on my face and safety glasses. No other damage to the FAL. The fired cases were fine at the base so I don't think it was headspace. I include a picture which looks like the case head failed. Any one else have problems with Wolf ? Thanks Bruce Sorry can't post a pic. Not allowed attachments for some reason.
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Old August 09, 2006, 18:45   #2
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Happy to hear you're ok. I've never heard of Wolf being problematic but every once in a while these things happen. Lesson to everyone to wear eye protection...
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Old August 09, 2006, 19:00   #3
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Here is the pic from Northwoods.
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File Type: jpg wolf kaboom.jpg (58.6 KB, 9089 views)
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Old August 09, 2006, 19:56   #4
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Yes, there are definitely problems with Wolf 308. Do a search in the Ammunition section for at least two reports of problems.
Two weeks ago at our Monday afternoon Rifleman shoot a buddy of mine had his Imbel- on- Imbel FAL blow up. His rifle ( which I helped him build and properly headspace) suffered a blown out mag, bulged out the left side of the reciever, blew out the extractor, sheared off the front section of the rear sight and bent up the front section of his DSA extreme-duty scope mount.
This left all of us badly shaken and grateful that Bill was not seriously injured.
He was wearing glasses and got some splatter in his face which drew a little blood.
I believe having the scope mount in place with no scope held things together and kept the rifle from coming entirely apart.
An examination after the event revealed at least two of the Wolf empty cases with missing primers, and the rest showing flattened primers. Disassembling the rifle, we found one spent, damaged primer loose in the action in the area of the bolt/ carrier. I believe a loose primer kept the action from closing fully and allowed an out-of-battery discharge.
Wolf has already paid for the damages to Bill's rifle and sent a call tag to recall the remaining ammo. This leads me to believe they are well aware of this problem.
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Old August 09, 2006, 22:09   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by GMB74

Wolf has already paid for the damages to Bill's rifle and sent a call tag to recall the remaining ammo. This leads me to believe they are well aware of this problem.
Are they waiting for someone to get killed?

I'm surprised there hasn't been a recall on all of the Wolf .308 ammo yet.
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Old August 10, 2006, 14:15   #6
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If Wolf .308 were cheaper, it would be a concern.

Right now theres still milsurp and other Russian steel cased ammo (Silver Bear) thats cheaper. If I had a rifle that consisently had problems with the cheapest ammo available, I would sell the rifle and get one that didnt have those problems before I would start shooting more expensive ammo.
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Old August 10, 2006, 14:49   #7
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I don't know that Wolf is all that bad. This is the first case head separation I have experienced. I have shot many thousand rounds of rifle and pistol ammo without any more than a pierced primer a few times. It is just unnerving to think what could happen. I am sure shooting is no more dangerous than crossing a busy street so I willchalk it up to experience. Bruce
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Old August 10, 2006, 18:51   #8
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Yah, and I got called out as trying to "slander" wolf when I had tons of issues with it.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...ight=WOLF+.308

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...highlight=WOLF





For now its crap, plain and simple. Hopefully in the future the QC will improve. I used to use nothing BUT WOLF, now I won't for quite some time until I stop hearing about these problems.

I had purchased my ammo many months before I finally went and shot it.


YMMV, buyer beware.

On a good note, WOLF will replace it/refund your $$$ and make it right.



JP

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Old August 10, 2006, 19:39   #9
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Shot about 300 rounds through 2 FALs.....No problems, but.....

I'm curious to find out EXACTLY what is the problem. By that I mean is it an overcharge? Improper shaped or dimensioned case? The steel case? (I doubt that, as too many millions of rounds of 7.62x39 have been fired though AKs, SKSs, etc...)

It would be good to get some kind of qualified, objective, analysis on what is causing the K-booms that have surfaced on several gun websites...
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Old August 10, 2006, 19:49   #10
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Well I dont think its an "overcharge" as the rounds I have only chrono at

2420fps from a 21" barrel...


Might be wrong type of powder, too much case volume, undersized primers or oversized pockets... who knows.



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Old August 10, 2006, 21:38   #11
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Quote:
undersized primers
For what it's worth, the primers on the lot that I shot seemed, if anything, oversize.....

Very consistent on performance insofar as shooting to POA.
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Old August 10, 2006, 21:53   #12
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An email I got from DSA

Here's an email I got from DSA, asking why I shouldn't use Wolf ammo in their STG58s.

-------------------

Hello Nick,

Wolf ammo is subject to case head failure, and even worse, the occasional double powder load. In short, it may blow up your rifle. Russian quality control on ammo is one of the worst in the world. We have had more problems with customers blowing up rifles with Wolf than any other brand. We had a SA58 rifle in here last week as a result of using Wolf ammo. Also, the FAL was not designed for use with steel cased ammo, nor is Wolf ammo Nato Spec. Can the rifle function with it ? Yes, will it do so flawlessly ? Perhaps....but you should know extended use of this type of ammo causes excessive wear on your rifle. Can you get lucky and never run into a bad batch of Wolf ammo>? Probably. But is it worth the risk to save $30 per thousand rounds? if you use Wolf in your rifle ,you will void your warranty. We would know because the case would be stuck in the chamber, or we would ask for the case that blew up the gun. There are always at least pieces left of the case.

There are many other types of surplus ammo out there besides South African. We take the time to post this info on the web because we want you to avoid having problems with your rifle. There are no rifles out there that would not sustain major damage from case head failure or double powder loads. As you stated, the FAL is robust, but not indestructible.

We suggest you take a look at Shotgun News, or Gun List as there are usually several companies in each that list Surplus ammo that is not on our warning list. If you can't find surplus ammo , we suggest Winchester USA Brand, Federal American Eagle, or Remington UMC. These are slightly higher than surplus costs, but they are excellent and well below the cost of premium ammo. Unfortunately, surplus ammo is getting scarce in any caliber.

Hope that answers your question.

Best Regards,

Marc Galli
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Old August 12, 2006, 02:01   #13
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The troubles above with Wolf are duly noted. I have some firsthand experience to add:

I will most certainly not be buying Wolf or any Russian .308.

I just had a buddy get his FAL jammed and FUBAR'ed locked shut by a Wolf .308 round - primers coming loose and locking up bolt/boltcarrier so bad he had spend some time to get it out, thereby ruining his shooting session. 'He returned ammo to dealer for a refund.
This kind of QC sloppiness from Wolf is inexcusable and can get people hurt.

On a 640 rd can of 7.62x39mm I have noticed 2 rounds with AWOL primer- WTF?!!!!. I'll still shoot Wolf x39 but forever remain vigilant.

Wolf does seem to -at the very least- have trouble with primers right now . Case head separations like DSA states? I won't doubt it. In .308 and my $1K FAL, I won't chance it.

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Old August 12, 2006, 02:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zonie
I will most certainly not be buying Wolf or any Russian .308.

Just had a buddy get his FAL jammed and FUBAR'ed locked shut by a Wolf .308 round - primers coming loose and locking up bolt/boltcarrier. 'He returned ammo to dealer for a refund.

Yep, same thing happened to me.

If he hasn't gotten it unlocked yet, tell him to use a prybar thru the magwell and ejection port to work the bolt carrier back and forth a little at a time, with lots of WD40 in there. After enough times front/back it should smash the primer enough to come un locked.

Mine locked all the way to the REAR so it was a REAL bitch to get undone as I couldn't seperate the lower until AFTER I removed the primer.

I also had a primer get into the FCG and get stuck under the sear/hammer area and lock the FCG up solid. It fell right out upon field stripping.


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Old August 12, 2006, 08:35   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teleplayer
Shot about 300 rounds through 2 FALs.....No problems, but.....

I'm curious to find out EXACTLY what is the problem. By that I mean is it an overcharge? Improper shaped or dimensioned case? The steel case?
the way it was explained to me is that the metal just forward of the rim, is too thin to contain the explosive charge and it blows out causing the gun to go boom. the metal around the base of it should be thickest part of the case, then it gradually gets thinner as it goes toward the neck. if you put a live round in the chamber, you will see that a very small small portion of the case just forward of the rim , is not in the chamber, that is enough that if the walls around the base of the case isn't a certain thickness, that explosive charge will rupture the case and you get what amounts to uncontained explostion
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Old August 12, 2006, 21:16   #16
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Exact same thing happened to me a while ago, I thought it might have been the headspace since i'm not that familiar with FALS. It took me forever to get the casing out, i'm having someone who has built quite a few fals and really knows his stuff look at it in a couple of weeks to make sure nothing was damaged, as of right now the only damage was the destroyed mag and a few small cuts on my nose (Good thing I was wearing safety glasses!)
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Old August 12, 2006, 22:39   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by JPglee1
Yah, and I got called out as trying to "slander" wolf when I had tons of issues with it.

JP
You are right, several 'experts' did flame you on this. I went back and read the threads, now their expertice is a bit suspect, I think.
I was hoping Wolf was better than that, surplus getting more expensive and all. Maybe things will change, but for now, thanks for the warning!
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Old August 13, 2006, 14:28   #18
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Just great. Now what the heck do the rest of us do with our (considerable) stashes of Wolf .308?

There's no way in hades I'm going to be a guinea pig for them. I wonder if they'll take it back?
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Old August 13, 2006, 14:50   #19
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Originally posted by GySgt D
Just great. Now what the heck do the rest of us do with our (considerable) stashes of Wolf .308?

There's no way in hades I'm going to be a guinea pig for them. I wonder if they'll take it back?
you can try to have them take it back.......but I don't believe you will have much luck there. the only other way is to get rid of it, is to sell it.
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Old August 13, 2006, 18:19   #20
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"Just great. Now what the heck do the rest of us do with our (considerable) stashes of Wolf .308?"


Looks like it might be time for a cheap bolt action?






I was hesitant to necessarily believe the initial reports of problems with Wolf .308 since there has been such a history of Wolf bashers in the past.

99.9% of the Wolf bashing I have read has been B.S. propagated by liars and malcontents. I have shot a ton of Wolf in 9mm and .223 and love it. NO PROBLEMS.

At this point, it seems prudent to wait to use Wolf .308 until after they get the QC straightened out. If Silver Bear can produce good steel case .308, then so can Wolf.
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Old August 14, 2006, 11:31   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by 16R40
you can try to have them take it back.......but I don't believe you will have much luck there. the only other way is to get rid of it, is to sell it.

HELL NO...

pull the bullets and powder and reload it in reliable brass.. it's not a total loss.. but don't pass along a box of grenades onto some poor unsuspecting chump so it goes off in his face...
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Old August 14, 2006, 18:08   #22
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Just got a few boxes of Wolf Gold .308 SP with brass case, not steel case.

Should I be concerned?
Anyone here experienced any incidents using this type of Wolf ammo?

Any input would be apreciated, thanks.
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Old August 15, 2006, 18:59   #23
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Bump.

Anyone?
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Old August 29, 2006, 16:17   #24
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I tried some of the steel cased .308 Wolf at a match a few weeks back. I was shooting it in my PTR91. I had a few jams that I simply cleared and kept shooting since the clock was running. After I finished the stage I went back and found the rounds that jammed.

There were two rounds involved in the jam. On one, the bullet fell out of the shell. That's right, the loose bullet was laying next to the unfired shell with powder spilled out of it. The other round from the same jam had the bullet pushed way back into the case neck.

It acted like neither one of these rounds had been crimped in any way. I'm curious if some of the kabooms are the result of high chamber pressure due to bullet setback.
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Old August 29, 2006, 20:23   #25
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the wolf gold brass cased 308 is fine i have fired about 200 rounds of it to date fwiw you can buy federal power shok 150 gr 308 at walmart now for the same price as the wolf gold the wolf was a better deal when sg had it for 7.20 a box but now it is close to $10
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Old August 29, 2006, 20:29   #26
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kycrawler:
I'm sure you're a great guy and thanks for the info, but LEARN TO 'EFFIN PUNCTUATE! THEN WE CAN APPRECIATE YOUR POST!

Jesus H. Christ, we're all passed third frickin' grade, for chrissakes!
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Old August 29, 2006, 20:32   #27
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i live in kentucky what do you expect
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Old August 29, 2006, 21:04   #28
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Your place of residence is hardly an excuse for ignorance. As bad as it is as an excuse, it should never be a defense.
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Old August 29, 2006, 21:47   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArizSig
I tried some of the steel cased .308 Wolf at a match a few weeks back. I was shooting it in my PTR91. I had a few jams that I simply cleared and kept shooting since the clock was running. After I finished the stage I went back and found the rounds that jammed.

There were two rounds involved in the jam. On one, the bullet fell out of the shell. That's right, the loose bullet was laying next to the unfired shell with powder spilled out of it. The other round from the same jam had the bullet pushed way back into the case neck.

It acted like neither one of these rounds had been crimped in any way. I'm curious if some of the kabooms are the result of high chamber pressure due to bullet setback.
This needed to be quoted and does sound like what is causing the kabooms. FWIW, I've never spent a dime on Wolf or ever ran a single round through any of my guns ,although I've seen a lot of .223 go down range with only minor problems (weak ejection). From what I've read the .45 pistol stuff is supposed to be hell on 1911 extractors.

Deer Hunter - I'm just curous about what DSA was alluding to on the SA 7.62. Was it good or bad?
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Old August 29, 2006, 21:52   #30
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They are against it. And personally, until Wolf gets some QC on their .308 line, I am too.
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Old August 29, 2006, 21:54   #31
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Quote:
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Your place of residence is hardly an excuse for ignorance. As bad as it is as an excuse, it should never be a defense.
It was meant as a joke , little serious aren't we ? Furthermore i don't need an excuse for ignorance , i was born this way . Eat more fiber
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Old August 30, 2006, 04:10   #32
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Re: An email I got from DSA

Quote:
Originally posted by Deer Hunter
Here's an email I got from DSA, asking why I shouldn't use Wolf ammo in their STG58s.

-------------------

Hello Nick,

Wolf ammo is subject to case head failure, and even worse, the occasional double powder load. In short, it may blow up your rifle.....

Marc Galli
General Manager
DSA Inc.
How the hell can you double load a rifle case? Maybe a pistol case, but you cant double a rifle case, maybe overcharge. A short load or no load would probably be worse.
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Old August 30, 2006, 07:03   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deer Hunter
They are against it. And personally, until Wolf gets some QC on their .308 line, I am too.
My question was in reference to what they (DSA) said about South African 7.62 Your point about their opinion on Wolf was clear.
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Old August 30, 2006, 09:59   #34
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Wolf has shipped me a case of 308 gold to replace the case of steel that I had a blown head from. They sent me a return paid label to return the unused steel case with(620 rounds). The return label was only good for 10 pounds so that was all I returned. They must know they have a problem because they acted very quickly with no horseshit!! I also included the blown case as they asked so they could check it.
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Old August 30, 2006, 15:38   #35
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South african is fine to use in FALs. Don't worry about it.

Northwoods, as others have probably already stated, quick response by Wolf is a great way to keep away from lawsuits.
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Old August 30, 2006, 16:29   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deer Hunter
South african is fine to use in FALs. Don't worry about it.
+1.. unless you got some crap that's all corroded or something...
if it's in the sealed battle pack, you're okay..
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Old August 30, 2006, 17:38   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deer Hunter
South african is fine to use in FALs. Don't worry about it.

I already know that! I was curous about what DSA said about it because you stated they said "there are other surplus out there besides SA".

JeezeLouise! Never mind.
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Old August 31, 2006, 18:11   #38
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This probably isn't too useful of information, but I fired twenty rds of it through my STG-58 kit gun a few days ago. No malfs or other drama, but the primers looked a bit on the flattened side.

Until the safety issue is addressed (and advertised as such), I'm not buying any more of it. Got about 200 rds left.
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Old April 03, 2007, 11:16   #39
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How did a thread with the most recent post date of August 31, 2006, get up to the top with no new posts...?

Eh?

Just wondering...

(And I'm just commenting on something that already happened. This post did not bring this up to the top... The invisible post that did was dated 3APR2007 08:54...)

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Old April 03, 2007, 12:45   #40
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with the price of 308 these days, I'm sure people will be looking at the russian stuff a little more closely. Even the Indian stuff is pricey.
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Old April 03, 2007, 15:59   #41
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How much is your personal safety worth???

7.62
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Old April 03, 2007, 18:45   #42
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I think it is great that potential risks are brought to light. However, I have not heard of widespread problems with Wolf, especially since August '06, and, with Wolf being priced considerably below current surplus, you would think that people are shooting it up. It is readily available in my area. Is anyone aware of any current problems?

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Old April 03, 2007, 20:02   #43
2DARK2C
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i am glad to read these old posts. i called dsa a few days ago asking why not to use steel cased ammo and got almost exacttly the same answer. i was on the verge of calling bs, but this post gives there claims credibility, however old. i for one ain't gonna risk the finest rifle i've owned to save a few bucks. i'd rather sell it if i can't afford to shoot it.

i have shot wolf and numerious other steel cased ammo in my ak's for years. i've never had any problems other than gun related. granted i don't shoot more than maybe 700 rnds a yr, so you folks burning up 10k rnds a yr don't say i'm blowin' smoke. i've been lucky i guess.

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Old April 04, 2007, 05:43   #44
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I hate wolf in anything but 7.62x39...

I've fired thousands of rounds of Wolf 7.62x39 through 5 different AKs (4 of which were mine) and an SKS over the years with ZERO ammo malfunctions...


That said, I've tried Wolf in .40 S&W, .45ACP and 9mm Luger.


On average, at least 2 out of a 50rd box will have headspacing issues (case too short when compared to other spent casings) and shallow primer-strike. Or critical failure of the case (case tear) resulting in it getting stuck in the chamber.

I love taking down a handgun and using a screwdriver to piston the busted shell from a barrel.


I've had a lot of Wolf Handgun loads simply not ignite. Lots of duds.



So I will never buy wolf in anything but 7.63x39 (which is how Tula Cartridge works really got big). If they screw up their staple cartridge, then they're screwed.


I recently bought a bunch of Brown Bear x39 and Golden Tiger. So far I've heard mixed things about the Bear, and nothing but good stuff about Tiger.


Either way, I'll be certain to throw in my .02.



As for SA ammo, I think out of 2,000 or so rounds fired, I only had one Failure to fire. I also ran into a cartridge with a split casing neck. I never fired it.

Upon closer inspection, the primer of the fail-to-fire round was too deep within the casing. I believe they made it too "short" and when they seated it, it was set too deep. The range of my firing pin at that depth of the casing was obviously not enough to fire the round.


Either way, I love SA.



Wolf, unless you're blasting it in a 7.62x39 AK or SKS (maybe a mini-30..), I would avoid.
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Old April 04, 2007, 06:58   #45
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I have shot about 10,000 rounds of Wolf (9mm and .223) with NO PROBLEM.


Steel cased ammo is a fact of life.

It's not going away.

It's here to stay.

Most of the 'horror stories' you hear are lies by people with an agenda.

There is still a vocal anti-steel case ammo contingent out there.

They are unstable and dishonest types that are like the people that still think that the earth is flat.

IF there is a bad batch of steel cased .308 out there...and there could be...it is simply a Quality Control problem. And, of course, I wouldn't shoot it.

Just as I wouldn't shoot any of the 90's Indian brass cased ammo. Or any of the South American brass cased ammo that Kaboomed several rifles.

The same anti-steel clowns bashing steel cased ammo today will be shooting it tomorrow.



Now, after this post, there will be mind gaming flame clowns posting.

It doesn't change anything.



DESPITE THE IMPOTENT PROTESTS OF THE DINOSAURS, THE FUTURE IS STEEL CASED AMMO.

Vapid ramblings won't change that.







Should you shoot bad batches of ammo....brass or steel? Uh....no.

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Old April 04, 2007, 07:57   #46
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I just sent the following e-mail to Wolf. Can't wait to hear why they don't have a recall notice on their site. If we were talking about crappy handles on coffee mugs that suddenly break off, that would be one thing. This is a controlled explosion just inches from someone's face, and they seem to have lost control of it - not good.

----------
With the price of mil surp .308 going through the roof, the steel case Wolf is looking better and better. However, I have been reluctant to purchase any in .308 because of many confirmed problems with it (ie. blowing up rifles).

Has this problem been resolved? Have the bad lots been identified and removed from the market? If the problem lots have been identified, you should post a recall notice on your web site listing the bad lot numbers, and how to exchange bad ammo for ammo that won't blow up in the shooter's face.

I understand you have a money back guarantee, but that only covers the ammo. Catching a bolt with my face is not exactly my idea of a fun day at the range.

Thank you
-Bobby
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Old April 04, 2007, 09:23   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oswald2001
I have shot about 10,000 rounds of Wolf (9mm and .223) with NO PROBLEM.


Steel cased ammo is a fact of life.

It's not going away.

It's here to stay.

Most of the 'horror stories' you hear are lies by people with an agenda.

There is still a vocal anti-steel case ammo contingent out there.

They are unstable and dishonest types that are like the people that still think that the earth is flat.

IF there is a bad batch of steel cased .308 out there...and there could be...it is simply a Quality Control problem. And, of course, I wouldn't shoot it.

Just as I wouldn't shoot any of the 90's Indian brass cased ammo. Or any of the South American brass cased ammo that Kaboomed several rifles.

The same anti-steel clowns bashing steel cased ammo today will be shooting it tomorrow.



Now, after this post, there will be mind gaming flame clowns posting.

It doesn't change anything.



DESPITE THE IMPOTENT PROTESTS OF THE DINOSAURS, THE FUTURE IS STEEL CASED AMMO.

Vapid ramblings won't change that.







Should you shoot bad batches of ammo....brass or steel? Uh....no.

Yes, steel-cased ammo is a fact of life. Then again so is diarrhea. And no amount of spouting "liar" is going to make me like diarrhea.



For my part, I was telling of my experiences as I experienced them (which DID happen). If you don't want to believe them to be true, that's fine and completely up to you. Continue using Wolf it you like it and it works for you.



I know what failures and flaws I ran into, and that's what keeps me away from Wolf.


Those of us who have experienced these "horror stories" are basically just relaying our experiences to those who wish to hear some anecdotes about this ammo.


Unless there is some secret, illuminati conspiracy to discredit steel-cased ammo and overthrow the world, I think you're safe from any dis-information here.


Then again, how do we know you're not a "vocal pro-steel case ammo contingent out there with an agenda?"


You could be a "Wolf" in sheeps clothing for all we know (haha, I know, it was a good one).


Get out your tin-foil hat from now on, so us Dinosaurs can't read your thoughts and make you like brass. (I'm 25 by the way)


And statistics say you're reaching for the stars with your hyperbole regarding your 10,000 round statement. Even the best Ammo would likely have at least one or two failures after that many rounds fired.


When I was in military, I had LC failures from time to time. Nothing that common, but it happened.


Even the vernerable Black Hills ammo can have a hiccup from time to time. Though, that is rarest still.




I digress, I have to go order some Golden Tiger 7.62x39 FMJ, since it's so much better than Wolf and all.
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Old April 04, 2007, 10:52   #48
daschnoz
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I received a response from Wolf.

"All issues have been resolved."

That was it. Then again, they are in PR Kalifornia.
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Old April 05, 2007, 08:48   #49
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Maybe all steel cased ammo should have the following creed stamped on each round:

IN OSWALD WE TRUST
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Old April 05, 2007, 09:55   #50
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If one makes one's own ammo and is attentive to detail, even with the cheapest components, the quality is known without doubt. Without buying the best components, one can assemble ammo equal to and likely exceeding the quality of the "best" factory ammo available.

Having futzed with guns, ammo and reloading for well past 20 years I have had a few peeks into the ammo factory operations. One peek was even first hand. A lot of trust is placed in a machine that really doesn't care if all the rounds are perfect. Just so all the little circuits are happy. Thankfully, the US makers are very good at keeping circuits happy.

I'll make my own, thanks much.
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