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Old March 05, 2018, 15:51   #1
Airforce1
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Canadian X2E1 bayonets for EX1 and EX2

Hello,

Please find some pictures of my two Canadian Trials X2E1 bayonets made in Belgium by Fabrique nationale in 1954. Some 2000 bayonets and a mix of CDN EX1 and EX2 rifles were purchased for trials in Canada's winter and in Germany for testing under all climatic conditions. Normally a serial number, from 0001 to 2000, was marked on the right side of the pommel by stamping or by electric pencil. No Government of Canada ownership on the bayonets. I have one which was stamped with the serial number 1210 and the other the serial number 1834 was inscribed with electric pencil on both side of the pommel (note the number "4" in the serial number is inversed on the left side of the pommel).

Please see video on the EX1 rifles in the British Army in 1954: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WyEwHwPXTQ


Enjoy the pictures


1 EX.JPG

2 EX.JPG

3 EX.JPG

4 EX.JPG

5 EX.JPG

6 EX.JPG

7 EX.JPG

8 EX.JPG

9 EX.JPG

Last edited by Airforce1; March 05, 2018 at 18:08.
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Old March 05, 2018, 17:08   #2
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Now THAT'S interesting. I've never seen an EX1 bayonet. Not once, not ever.

Nice pics, Sir.
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Old March 05, 2018, 17:33   #3
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These bayonets were commonly employed for the Belgian military designated M1 & M2 FAL's.
In addition, they were employed by the Israeli Army and other countries whom purchased early metric 50.00 FAL's.

My M2.

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Old March 05, 2018, 20:25   #4
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I thought the serial numbers started with OB
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Old March 05, 2018, 21:04   #5
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These are the early type A style with the large latch setup....the later type A style had a smaller latch setup...
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Old March 05, 2018, 21:20   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embatp View Post
These are the early type A style with the large latch setup....the later type A style had a smaller latch setup...
Plastic handle Argentine's?
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Old March 05, 2018, 22:20   #7
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Quote:
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Plastic handle Argentine's?
Some but wood handles too...
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Old March 06, 2018, 20:50   #8
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So would they be what was used on the T48s?
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Old March 06, 2018, 21:51   #9
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The Type B bayonet.
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Old March 07, 2018, 00:54   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
The Type B bayonet.
On those with the Long browning flash hider.....there were others that looked like EX1s that used the above...
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Old March 07, 2018, 06:29   #11
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Are you are referring to the rows of type M2's in Pat Jones' photos at Quantico? I wonder what happened to the 3200 T48's made.
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Old March 07, 2018, 11:51   #12
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I believe pat stated that a little less than a 1000 of the fn made t48s were the long flash hider , one piece handguard etc versions....the others looked mostly like EX1s....if you go to the Springfield armory museum website they have lots of pics of those rifles....the t48 manuals in the Stevens books use the EX1 type rifle as well....
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Old March 07, 2018, 16:52   #13
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No doubt the EX1 was the basis for the development of the T48.
The US requested several changes to the basic FN made EX1 including a flash hider, low front & rear sights and possibly all of 3 different types of wood hand guards. I'm not sure what part H&R played in the changes designations and perhaps it was the winter trigger guard, front sling swivel handguard band, stripper clip top cover and a couple of other things.
I believe both types of bayonets were FN design and manufacture.
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Old March 07, 2018, 17:17   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
Are you are referring to the rows of type M2's in Pat Jones' photos at Quantico? I wonder what happened to the 3200 T48's made.
Years ago a buddy sent me pix of piles of torched T48s. Most were torched, crushed and sold as scrap under Clinton at the same time DoD scrapped thousands of M14s as well as BARs, M3s, etc
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Old March 09, 2018, 21:08   #15
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The markings look correct on the EX1 bayonets
here's another couple of examples


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Old March 09, 2018, 22:35   #16
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Ok help me here. I understand that the 2000 ex1 serial numbers started with OB and that the bayonets were serialized to match. I’m not seeing any OB on these bayonets.
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Old March 12, 2018, 09:30   #17
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Nobody wants to answer me? I'm not going to let this go!

EX1 and EX2 bayonets, as research indicates, were serialized to the rifles and all serial numbers start with "OB".

I have OB1616 and today received photos of OB0074.

It is my contention that the bayonets pictured in previous posts, while beautiful Type A bayonets, are not EX1 bayonets.
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Old March 12, 2018, 09:41   #18
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X2E1 bayonets

Hello Abominog,

As per the "British & Cmmonwealth Bayonets" book by Skennerton & Richardson page 308, there are only the serial number (four (4) digits) stamped or inscribed with electric pencil. There is NO "OB" before the serial number.
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Old March 12, 2018, 13:27   #19
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Australia imported for trial's FN rifles along with some 20 FN Type A bayonets.
The bayonets were all marked X2E1 on the underside of the grip tang along with th serial numbers ranging between 3850 and 3950. Some bayonets had the prefic G before the serial number.
The scabbards were marked X1E1 on the top scabbart at the throat. Interesting fact on page 76 of Skinnerton's S.L.R. book is a photo of a trials X2A1 bayonet with serial number #13260.
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Old March 12, 2018, 14:57   #20
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To be clear, I'm specifically talking about the Canadian rifles.

In January 1954 Canada ordered 2000 trials rifles from FN. These were the EX1 and EX2. These were serialized starting with OB and a four digit serial number 0001 through 2000. The matching bayonets were serialized to the rifles also starting with OB.

In other words, if the serial number doesn't start with "OB" it isn't a Canadian trials (EX1 or EX2) bayonet.

Now, in early 1955 Canada did begin building metric prototype rifles. I don't know if they made or procured bayonets. It is possible that these bayonets were as those depicted in this thread. And, on 01 June 1955 Canada formally adopted the metric FN. Again, I don't know who made those bayonets. And, the "pseudo inch" C1 was adopted in September 1956

I have not seen a large number of Canadian bayonets, nor handled any of the metric C1 rifles. A photo of a 1958 3L (still metric) appears to have a Commonwealth-style FH (I could be wrong) inferring that the L1-style bayonet had been adopted by then? Given that the C1A1 began production in 1960 (at least three years after the UK L1A1 bayonet was developed) and used the L1-style bayonet, the question is what was used in the interim?

But I stand by my claim that OP's bayonets, though very nice, and early, are not Canadian EX trials bayonets.

See The FAL Primer: The Collector's Guide to FN FAL and SLR Rifles pages 72 and 198.

Gosh, we haven't had a technical fight in a long time...this is feeling like the old days!


This is the serial number for a Canadian EX trials rifle bayonet:

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Old March 12, 2018, 15:53   #21
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I am inclined to agree with 'Nog on this one. I recall seeing at least one other Canadian trials rifle bayonet and it as well, had the OB prefix. It would stand to reason this is correct, as the serialized magazines also included the OB prefix so why wouldn't the bayonets if they were serialized to the rifle.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:52   #22
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Canadian X2E1

Sorry Abominog, but the Canadian bayonets do not have the "OB" as a prefix to the serial number. NZ L1A1 Collector has the same type of serial numbers as mine. On you pictures, the grips look like to be plastic not wood. The Canadian one has wood grips. Also in a French book on bayonets called "Baïonnettes du monde" also show only for digits for serial numbers and wood grips.

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Old March 12, 2018, 18:50   #23
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I respect Skennerton, however he is an expert on Australian, not Canadian, artifacts. As far as a French book on bayonets, well...

I'm going to draw member Falcon in to start with:

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2787875

Original EX1 parts are:

-Barrel (unfired) with gas block/foresight pin assembly
-Front sling swivel assembly
-Model A gas cylinder (266,2mm length)
-Model A gas piston/spring (299mm)
-Gas regulator sleeve spring
-Charging handle
-Carry handle wood
-Model A Gas plug
-Model A Carry handle
-Complete Lower from rifle O.B.1067
-Magazine from rifle O.B.0362


Now, if you think he's wrong, let's go to where somebody paid big money
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Canadi...p?lid=22171125

serial #0B1097, 7.62mm (308 Win), 21" barrel with an excellent bore. This limited production trials rifle was based on the FN FAL design and was tested by the Canadian government prior to implementing the C1A1 rifles... [Richard "Stretch" Kennedy Collection]

Here's "Lee Enfield" (I think that's not his real name):
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=62196

The give away of an Ex1/2 magazine is that there is no stake mark on the rear crimp.

Is your ex2 cut for a c1 folding charging handle?

The serial range O.B. 1700 thru O.B. 2000 "should be" Ex2 rifles


Need a source website in French?
http://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/Canada-C...-/272019339574

Offered here is a rare FN-FAL bayonet. This is from an experimental FN rifle used in trials by Canada in the early 50s, and numbered less than 2000 of both the EX1 and EX2 examples. Each rifle came with matching serial numbered bayonet and magazines. This low serial number (OB 0110) is part of the EX1 series.

Let's defer to the Canadian War Museum, though clearly they can't transcribe properly
https://www.warmuseum.ca/collections/artifact/1047326/

EX1/T48 Toolroom
Inscription
Stamped on receiver: 44; 7M ; (Rampant Lion) over PV; (Star) over E; (Tower) over (Steps); Fabrique Nationale D'Armes de Guerre Herstal-Belgique; On butt stock: O.B.009; Fabrique Nationale D'Armes de Guerre Herstal-Belgique. Top of receiver



Well, that's it for now.
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Old March 12, 2018, 20:27   #24
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I'm back.

So now what are these X2E1 bayonets from 1954? I'd like to see the date stamp on the electropenciled specimen.

Here's what the Brits have to say about X2E1 bayonets:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001010

History note
This bayonet type was trialled by the British Army. Although unmarked, apart from its trials designation, it is considered to be of Belgian origin. Watts and White, see Documentation, state that 'Early trials were made with Belgian rifles and bayonets, these being designated in Britain as the X1 and X2E1 respectively.'
Inscription
inscription stamped tang (underside) (trials designation) X2 E1 8422


And a seller in the UK (175 quid will get it)
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/trials-pat.../Blades/885395

A Trials X2 E1 bayonet and scabbard. The bayonet is for a NATO 7.62mm F.A.L. Rifle in particular the X8E1,

And a published book on bayonets
https://books.google.com/books?id=He...20x2e1&f=false

(look at page 140 which says it's for the X8)





Now, maybe some X2e1 did go to Canada, even to the military. Why not?

Problem is, there are no real reliable sources to back that up. Of course, there is this one http://www.nirvi.fi/nnbm/page114.html. But then again, they show an L1A1 rifle. And the purported "Canadian" X2E1 bayonet has a five digit serial number....explain that.

In fact, a Google search "Canada FAL X2E1" turns up very, very little.

And it just doesn't add up. We know the UK issued the X1 and X2 (and X3, for that matter) bayonets with the X8. And that the 2000 Canadian trials rifles were serialized with OB. So why would Canada use X1 marked bayonets, and if they did, then what's the deal with OB serialized bayonets? Did they NOT go with the OB serialized rifles? No, it makes no sense for anything but OB bayonets to go with OB rifles, and X bayonets to go with X rifles.

Like I said, those may have been sent to Canada. But they were not issued with the 2000 OB serialized Canadian trials rifles.

Quick note: good eye on OB1616. This bayonet had been (for some stupid reason) modified by CAL. It is a 1954 blade with metal scales added (like the Type B) and a Type B crosspiece with the barrel loop removed. Don't ask me why, ask the CAL experimenters.
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Old March 19, 2018, 20:57   #25
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EX1 and EX2 rifles

Hello Abominog,

I have in my collection some parts of EX1 or EX2 rifles which was used as Drill Purpose (DP) for the Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps (RCACC) up to 1995. The white band on the butt was to indicate a DP rifle. In 1994/1995Department of National Defence (DND) removed all those DP rifles from the RCACC units because they had a look of an assault rifle. The Base Weapon Technicians received the orders to put those rifles in pieces and send back to the Depot the barrels, the upper and lower receivers. All other parts were to be destroyed locally. You can see the serial number of the rifle was stamped on the right of the butt and my is O.B.1647 and only the four (4) numbers were put on the bayonet.



DSCN2420 - Copy.JPG

DSCN2415 - Copy.JPG

DSCN2416 - Copy.JPG
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Old March 20, 2018, 05:41   #26
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The X2 E1 marked bayonets are British Trials rifle bayonets. Even though the books say the British procured 5000 rifles, they in fact purchased approximately 15,000 rifles made up of X8E1, X8E2, X8E3, X8E5 variations. The highest s/n'ed bayonet I've seen is in the 14xxx range. There were even a small number of X3E1 marked bayonets (FAL MODEL B) bayonets.

When the British army sold off their obsolete X2E1 bayonets as scrap, a lot of them were purchased as scrap by Hopkinson's and then welded the blades back together as part of the scrap process was to cut the blades. To find a complete unaltered X8E1 bayonet is rare, a lot of them, if you look closely just in front of the prongs you can see where they have been welded back together. The bayonet can have the large bayonet catch or the second model catches (smaller).

There would of been some X2E1 bayonets and X8 rifles sent to Canada for reference/evaluation purposes.

The EX1/EX2 bayonets are their own type. They weren't marked X2E1 (that was British Trials) in all the books I've looked at from the early days 60'/70's when the EX bayonets weren't of any value all refer to them having been stamped with 4 digit number or hand engraved. YES the rifles and magazines were stamped OBxxxx and on that, the bayonets should of been marked OBxxxx but there is a severe lack of OBxxxx marked bayonets anywhere, yours is the exception. I did check that link above for the sale of the bayonet, do you have the photos stashed away somewhere?

I would love there to be a supply of OBxxxx marked bayonets, I would add one to the collection. I'll broach the subject with the top bayonet specialists and see what they have in their extensive collections and let you know.
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Old April 03, 2018, 14:39   #27
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EX1 bayonets??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airforce1 View Post
Sorry Abominog, but the Canadian bayonets do not have the "OB" as a prefix to the serial number.

Sorry Airforce1, but I know of two Canadian bayonets that do have the "OB" as a prefix to the serial number: Abominogs ser# OB1616 & mine: ser# OB0110, unless of course they ain't EX1 bayonets after all. What else might these things be then, pray tell?
I also have bayonet serial# 0074 which is reputedly for the Canadian EX1 rifle. That is the story I got from the guy in Canada I traded my Limey X8 bayonet off to.
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Old April 03, 2018, 17:16   #28
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The T48s were a curious blend of Inch and Metric.

What happened was High Standard was contracted to convert the FN metric drawings to MIL-STD-100 standards and manufacture 10 rifles to show that their prints were correct and the parts within those ten made by their drawings were interchangeable. They were then to turn over to Springfield the drawing package. The drawing were then supposed to be given to Harrington & Richards so they could produce the test articles.

HOWEVER, High Standard fell behind schedule and many of the drawing were not to MIL-STD-100 standards, just the FN drawings redrawn with the metric dimension converted to inches out to four or five decimals. But. they did fulfill the requirement of ten rifles (probably the rarest of the FAL variants). It short, most of the drawing were useless. The Army was now in a pickle, they had to get H&R producing rifles for test, but the drawing were worthless. Springfield started to redo the drawing themselves, but realized that the Canadians were well ahead of them in regards to having inch standard drawing available for production, so they bought a set from the Canadians. Unfortunately, there were some features that all had agreed were better, and FN had incorporated into the current design, but not yet made it to the Canadian drawings, most visibly, the hand guards. So, H&R started production with the existing Canadian drawings, and rolled in the latest improvements, from the metric drawing from FN.

As to the bayonets:



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Old April 03, 2018, 17:46   #29
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Some of the major differences are:

1) The receiver was modified with a forward bullet guide.
2) The trigger guard was permanently attached to the trigger housing, not the grip as on the final Commonwealth design.
3) The charging handle (later versions).
4) The hammer spring was not captive.
5) The sear was not captive.
6) The front sling swivel was moved back (A test modification seen on the round and two piece handguard, and if the T44 were to have been adopted, it would have stayed were it was on the original design.)
7) The T48 used metric-style magazines.
8) The front panel of the grip could be removed by a button, to stow the trigger guard.
9) there are at least two different flash hiders, the long FN type and a shorter four baffle muzzle brake attached similar to an T44/M14 flash hider.

Early versions had the one piece firing pin and one piece extractor, later modified to the two piece designs.




NOTE: Part of the above receiver has been machined away to show the malfunction, but the receiver had two pins either side of the piston hole to keep the bullets centered during charging. One of the pins in still visible.
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Old April 03, 2018, 18:58   #30
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T48?

[QUOTE=lysanderxiii;4565031]The T48s were a curious blend of Inch and Metric.

What has all this T48 silliness have to do with the discussion topic of this thread which happens to be Canadian/Brit trial bayonets?
All good stuff however, so why don't you delete it from this one & start a new thread?
And by the way, my recollection is Hi-Standard made; I think 13 standard bbl rifles & 6 heavy bbls. I do know it was more than 10 total.
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Old April 03, 2018, 19:48   #31
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The T48s were a curious blend of Inch and Metric....
What has all this T48 silliness have to do with the discussion topic of this thread which happens to be Canadian/Brit trial bayonets?
All good stuff however, so why don't you delete it from this one & start a new thread?
And by the way, my recollection is Hi-Standard made; I think 13 standard bbl rifles & 6 heavy bbls. I do know it was more than 10 total.
Just clarifying some questions raised earlier....

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So would they be what was used on the T48s?
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I believe pat stated that a little less than a 1000 of the fn made t48s were the long flash hider , one piece handguard etc versions....the others looked mostly like EX1s....if you go to the Springfield armory museum website they have lots of pics of those rifles....the t48 manuals in the Stevens books use the EX1 type rifle as well....
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No doubt the EX1 was the basis for the development of the T48.
The US requested several changes to the basic FN made EX1 including a flash hider, low front & rear sights and possibly all of 3 different types of wood hand guards. I'm not sure what part H&R played in the changes designations and perhaps it was the winter trigger guard, front sling swivel handguard band, stripper clip top cover and a couple of other things.
I believe both types of bayonets were FN design and manufacture.
Oh, and you were correct, High Standard was contracted to supply the USG twelve rifles produced from their drawings.
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Old April 03, 2018, 21:21   #32
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There must be EX examples in Toronto and Ottawa and Kingston. Perhaps our Canadian brethren can access these collections to evaluate OB serialized rifles and bayonets. Conjecture is fine but records and specimens form proof
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Old April 18, 2018, 23:05   #33
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Hello,

I found the proof that I am right on the marking on the Canadian X2E1 bayonets for EX1 and EX2 rifles. Only the four (4) serial numbers of the rifle is stamped or marked with an electric pencil on the bayonnets as per the Canadian Army EME Manual - Small Arms C 803 Instr 4 dated 14 December 1954. There is no "OB" stamped or marked before the 4 digit numbers.



Guns - Rifle EME C 803 Mod Instr 4 FN EX 1 and EX 2 - Numbvering of bayonets etc (1) (2) - Copy.jpg
Guns - Rifle EME C 803 Mod Instr 4 FN EX 1 and EX 2 - Numbvering of bayonets etc (2) (2) - Copy.jpg
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Old April 19, 2018, 12:13   #34
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Hello,

There is no "OB" stamped or marked before the 4 digit numbers.

Well now Airforce1, you are hereby exonerated if you tack on to the above quote "with the exception of serial numbers OB1616 & OB0110" until @ which time they are proven to be phonies or some other country's crap.
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Old April 19, 2018, 13:44   #35
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Nzl1a1 and I had an opportunity for discussion on this topic.

He presents the idea that while there were 2000 trials rifles there wasn't one trial, there were a number of trials. And, for at least one of these trials, a set of non-sequential rifles were selected as test specimens and stamped OB. This certainly sound reasonable and plausible to me.

Aside from that, he now owns my OB bayonet, so it's his problem now to investigate what OB means and how many were made.
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Old April 19, 2018, 16:36   #36
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That’s a repair manual telling one how to match the serials on parts that may need to be replaced to “repair “ the rifle..... no need to serial a part that’s already serialed....

The ex1s with all the OB markings came that way probably from FN....the electro penciled parts are replacements for damaged, stolen or lost parts....
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Old April 19, 2018, 19:44   #37
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That’s a repair manual telling one how to match the serials on parts that may need to be replaced to “repair “ the rifle..... no need to serial a part that’s already serialed....

The ex1s with all the OB markings came that way probably from FN....the electro penciled parts are replacements for damaged, stolen or lost parts....
This technical instruction was issued to tell the Weapon Technicians at the Unit Repairs on how to serial the bayonets and other parts of the new equipment during the trial of the EX1 and EX2 rifles.
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Old April 19, 2018, 19:48   #38
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This technical instruction was issued to tell the Weapon Technicians at the Unit Repairs on how to serial the bayonets and other parts of the new equipment during the trial of the EX1 and EX2 rifles.
Yes....if “new” bolts/carriers or bayos were needed to replace damaged parts....I have seen OB stamped barrels and bayonets and they are the same font FN used....

If Canada produced a metric style rifle after the ex1 trials and before “inch” type C1 production I could see them using the above bayonets with the 4 digit serials....
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Old April 23, 2018, 18:14   #39
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Yes, and that is the clue. It is a Unit/field level repair procedure.
At what stage did Canada switch to the Weapon Tech designation ?

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This technical instruction was issued to tell the Weapon Technicians at the Unit Repairs on how to serial the bayonets and other parts of the new equipment during the trial of the EX1 and EX2 rifles.
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Old October 06, 2018, 16:47   #40
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Good Day,

I found an old reference book on Canadian EX 1 Bayonet. from the "THE CANADIAN BAYONET" by R. Barrie Manarey, 1971. Some new "old" info on the EX 1 bayonet. We can see the wrong scabbard it is shown.

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Old October 15, 2018, 20:11   #41
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My two do not have OB prefixes on numbers. I purchase these some 15 years ago along with a number of other parts, bayonets and accessories from a Canadian C1/L1A1/FAL Collector and Parts Dealer.







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Old October 27, 2018, 10:52   #42
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There was a EX 1 bayonet sold at the Liveactioneers for US$140. We can see on the picture on the wooden grips stamped on a oval "Made in Canada".

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...fn-fal-bayonet
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