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Old August 15, 2018, 23:16   #101
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West German Army LRRP Co. 100.
Which years???
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Old August 16, 2018, 07:02   #102
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Which years???
1980 till 1985.
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Old August 16, 2018, 10:48   #103
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1980 till 1985.
Worked with some of you folks in 77, actually worked ON some of your folks in 77.
A very bad day in Buamholder when a string dropped off course in bad weather, which was the norm for that place.
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Old August 16, 2018, 11:29   #104
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Thanks, moonbat! I love hearing Cold War tidbits.
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Old August 16, 2018, 20:50   #105
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lew, I was an MOS 18 B3, and also a qualified asst. and team leader.

If the Cold War would have gotten hot, the Warsaw Pact armies would have been our enemies.As I was stationed in Braunschweig (Brunswick), I was a genuine "lowland Lurp".

My unit was created in 1963, stationed in Braunschweig and Celle in the northern lowlands. My unit was dissolved in 1996, a fact that I am still pi$$y about, and myself and others were reassigned to LL Aufkl. Kp310 in Lueneburg.
(A LLAufkl Kp. is an Airmobile / Airlanding Reconnaissance Company), which was NOT the same deal anymore.

The task(s) of an airmobile recon company is being inserted ahead of airdrops or air assaults by larger units, make sure that drop zones are safe, useable and scouting ahead of the troops, once larger units are inserted.
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Old August 17, 2018, 03:55   #106
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*mumbeling old and senile* mag 58 because its so damn precise when firing single shot ( the drill paco said)... reason 2 simplicitiy is king...

and after that the mg3...
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Old August 17, 2018, 11:11   #107
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lew, I was an MOS 18 B3, and also a qualified asst. and team leader.

If the Cold War would have gotten hot, the Warsaw Pact armies would have been our enemies.As I was stationed in Braunschweig (Brunswick), I was a genuine "lowland Lurp".

My unit was created in 1963, stationed in Braunschweig and Celle in the northern lowlands. My unit was dissolved in 1996, a fact that I am still pi$$y about, and myself and others were reassigned to LL Aufkl. Kp310 in Lueneburg.
(A LLAufkl Kp. is an Airmobile / Airlanding Reconnaissance Company), which was NOT the same deal anymore.

The task(s) of an airmobile recon company is being inserted ahead of airdrops or air assaults by larger units, make sure that drop zones are safe, useable and scouting ahead of the troops, once larger units are inserted.
Your unit and others were also designated to remain behind, go to ground, and allow the Warsaw Pact to roll over your positions and then go nuts behind their lines until REFORGER came roaring back into country.
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Old August 17, 2018, 21:11   #108
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Your unit and others were also designated to remain behind, go to ground, and allow the Warsaw Pact to roll over your positions and then go nuts behind their lines until REFORGER came roaring back into country.
True. If it would have come to that, we would have sold our souls at a high price. We were trained that way.
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Old August 18, 2018, 01:08   #109
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So, that explains why my house is marked 'resupply zone' on the US maps...
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Old August 18, 2018, 01:50   #110
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Mag58

What was nice about the Mag 58 is that it can go 150,000 rounds before anything internal breaks. Plus it will shoot straighter than the M-60 would
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Old August 18, 2018, 02:07   #111
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QUOTE=moonbat60;4622352]True. If it would have come to that, we would have sold our souls at a high price. We were trained that way.[/QUOTE]

Yes we were!

That whole idea/plan was so insane, it just might have worked as designed.

The cost would have been sky high, but it might really have worked.

That situation/operations planning, was the first time, I truly believed that ALL our commanders were completely insane.

And I never, nor any of our folks, ever believe the REFORGER time lines.

120 days would most likely have been five years of that crap and yep, none of us would have survived.
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Old August 18, 2018, 07:01   #112
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QUOTE=moonbat60;4622352]True. If it would have come to that, we would have sold our souls at a high price. We were trained that way.
Yes we were!

That whole idea/plan was so insane, it just might have worked as designed.

The cost would have been sky high, but it might really have worked.

That situation/operations planning, was the first time, I truly believed that ALL our commanders were completely insane.

And I never, nor any of our folks, ever believe the REFORGER time lines.

120 days would most likely have been five years of that crap and yep, none of us would have survived.[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely right. We never could have lasted 120 days nor 5 years.

We would have all been write-offs.
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Old August 18, 2018, 09:21   #113
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So, that explains why my house is marked 'resupply zone' on the US maps...


I was there 83-84 3/7 Cav just South of the Fulda gap.

REFORGER 84 when we were the aggressor we so far behind the lines we were out of radio range. We even snuck into a Battalion TOC and ate their not chow! Scouts OUT!
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Old August 18, 2018, 11:37   #114
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You are absolutely right. We never could have lasted 120 days nor 5 years.

We would have all been write-offs.


That's what GI's are, write offs!

I'm happy all those "plans" were never put into operation.

The world dodged a bullet with that whole period.

All of our folks, yours/ours would have given a good accounting of themselves, but that whole idea was the worlds worst kept "secret".

The taxi drivers when we showed up in some city all seemed to know we were running drills and would ask when taking us back to the train station, which side won this time?

German taxi drivers knew everything about everything.
Of course, its kinda hard to hide a full size hard rifle case.
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Old August 18, 2018, 12:46   #115
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Belgium has it own stay behind scenario and troops. Called "Gladio".
It included lrps, pathfinders, sf, and paracommandotroopers.
We had dugged in stashes all over Belgium.


Sometimes the dumps were found by metaaldetector hunters. So, they changed the law so only registered digger can search. And they need to say were in advance...

Interesting material. The belgian army doesn't think Rissia will try to ocupy Belgium any more. So, the program is suspended. They miss several dug ins now 😁
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Old August 18, 2018, 16:01   #116
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Belgium has it own stay behind scenario and troops. Called "Gladio".
It included lrps, pathfinders, sf, and paracommandotroopers.
We had dugged in stashes all over Belgium.


Sometimes the dumps were found by metaaldetector hunters. So, they changed the law so only registered digger can search. And they need to say were in advance...

Interesting material. The belgian army doesn't think Rissia will try to ocupy Belgium any more. So, the program is suspended. They miss several dug ins now 😁
People have asked me, why so many years in Germany, 11.7 out of 13 back during that time frame, with a blond green eyed wife, oh, she's German, nope, oh you loved Germany, nope, then why so many back to back Germany assignments?

This was the reason.
Plenty of shooters for this job, but not so many medics with the needed background.
Drove my "normal" commanders nuts it did when I took off for days/weeks at a time and all they knew, was that I was gone for a while.
Got to admit, I enjoyed the hell out of that, them not knowing!

In Germany, they were using apartments for stash houses back in the day.
Some buried stuff I'm sure, but that was above my pay grade.

It was all kept quiet, that we expected to be run over in a few days, morale I guess.
Of course anyone stationed there knew we could not hold the initial thrust of all that armor, not with what we had on hand.
Not without mucking up large sections of the country side/local populations with them other "things" local to inventory.

Talking to the Russians now, is far better than going back to them bad old days of that crap.
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Old August 18, 2018, 22:36   #117
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People have asked me, why so many years in Germany, 11.7 out of 13 back during that time frame, with a blond green eyed wife, oh, she's German, nope, oh you loved Germany, nope, then why so many back to back Germany assignments?

This was the reason.
Plenty of shooters for this job, but not so many medics with the needed background.
Drove my "normal" commanders nuts it did when I took off for days/weeks at a time and all they knew, was that I was gone for a while.
Got to admit, I enjoyed the hell out of that, them not knowing!

In Germany, they were using apartments for stash houses back in the day.
Some buried stuff I'm sure, but that was above my pay grade.

It was all kept quiet, that we expected to be run over in a few days, morale I guess.
Of course anyone stationed there knew we could not hold the initial thrust of all that armor, not with what we had on hand.
Not without mucking up large sections of the country side/local populations with them other "things" local to inventory.

Talking to the Russians now, is far better than going back to them bad old days of that crap.
I agree.

As a West German soldier, I didn't have too much of a choice, as I was always "in the picture".

Honestly, what pi$$ed me off more was the more and more gutless West German government. They caved in way too often before the East German socialist government instead of playing hardball with them frigging commies.

I knew a few folks that had what they were not supposed to have, and I never saw any reason to turn them in. I still saw till the reunion a communist threat. Disarming your own population in face of all this is not called for.

if the Warsaw Pact armies would have swept through Germany, the few West German, British, Canadian, US and Belgian troops wouldn't have made any difference, they were too few.
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Old August 18, 2018, 23:37   #118
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I agree.

As a West German soldier, I didn't have too much of a choice, as I was always "in the picture".

Honestly, what pi$$ed me off more was the more and more gutless West German government. They caved in way too often before the East German socialist government instead of playing hardball with them frigging commies.

I knew a few folks that had what they were not supposed to have, and I never saw any reason to turn them in. I still saw till the reunion a communist threat. Disarming your own population in face of all this is not called for.

if the Warsaw Pact armies would have swept through Germany, the few West German, British, Canadian, US and Belgian troops wouldn't have made any difference, they were too few.
The Germans I made friends with, all had "stuff" they were not supposed to have stuck away for a bad day.

Passed down father to son.

A lot of firearms went missing after the war. I suspect, they are still being oiled once a month, kept ready, just in case.

We all would have got our asses kicked, if they had crossed the border in mass.
One side or the other or both would have used all those tactical nukes stuck here there and yonder, and all hell would have broken loose.
Nukes used in central Europe, no one wins a damned thing.
Not with that population density.

That whole period of time was a nightmare waiting to happen.
I've always been surprised it did not happen by accident with all the crap being used, flown, and the tight area of operations.
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Old August 19, 2018, 06:55   #119
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It wouldn't have mattered if the U.S. adopted the T48 or not, it too was obsolete for modern warfare just as the T44/M14 was.
Many here have fired the StG58 or clone. Most have not handled a T48 or clone. They should, they are completely different rifles. The StG58 is a pig. The T48 without FH is manageably short, noticeably lighter and points wonderfully. It’s a shock to handle anT48 and IMBEL or SLR side by side. Adding an inch here and ounce there noticeably changes the handling characteristics of the rifle.

Ive carried an L1A1 F1 in the jungle and it is suboptimal. An early design T48 like prototype 37 would have been more than acceptable and much preferred over the F1. I like the 308. I’d have taken an early T48 over an M16 or M4. My other choice at the time was a SAR80 and I picked the F1.
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Old August 19, 2018, 13:32   #120
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If i read all these memory lane stories, only one conclusion...
We are getting old my friends.

Brothers in arms...
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Old August 19, 2018, 13:49   #121
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If i read all these memory lane stories, only one conclusion...
We are getting old my friends.

Brothers in arms...
Paco
Yep, ya got that one right!

I'll go out on a limb and make a startling prediction or two!

The next war, will be fought by men with whatever rifles they have on hand when the shooting starts.

The last war fought on this earth, by men, will be with wooden sticks and stones.
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Old August 19, 2018, 13:59   #122
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Many here have fired the StG58 or clone. Most have not handled a T48 or clone. They should, they are completely different rifles. The StG58 is a pig. The T48 without FH is manageably short, noticeably lighter and points wonderfully. It’s a shock to handle anT48 and IMBEL or SLR side by side. Adding an inch here and ounce there noticeably changes the handling characteristics of the rifle.

Ive carried an L1A1 F1 in the jungle and it is suboptimal. An early design T48 like prototype 37 would have been more than acceptable and much preferred over the F1. I like the 308. I’d have taken an early T48 over an M16 or M4. My other choice at the time was a SAR80 and I picked the F1.
While I've no experience with T48-pattern, I absolutely agree with you on "an ounce here, and an ounce there." An aluminum lower alone drastically effects the handling for the better. Titanium combo device? Now we're cooking.
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Old August 19, 2018, 18:18   #123
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If i read all these memory lane stories, only one conclusion...
We are getting old my friends.

Brothers in arms...
Paco
That we are...getting old. But I still got enough fight left in me to make somebody’s day very miserable, and I will not hesitate to do so.

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Old August 19, 2018, 20:30   #124
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That we are...getting old. But I still got enough fight left in me to make somebody’s day very miserable, and I will not hesitate to do so.

Just add a tube of Ben Gay to the kit bag, like riding a bike, one never forgets, might not be as fast, but most us old folks can still get it done.
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Old September 07, 2018, 21:25   #125
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Photo's of an old GMPG sectionalised for training purposes from when NZ went to a new contract buy of MAG58







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Hi,
somepeople have long toes i think.
So, @ Yellowhand, you seemed to be insulted somehow, some way. No need to.

I'm in no need to have more historylessons since i teach this 2 hrs a week.
Most Belgian people are very greatfull to the allied forces like the US,UK, en Russia (they did the biggest efforts).
Yep, we got ran over in 18 day. If you are aware that Belgium had a peacetime force of 100.000 (80% enlisted boys) versus2.000.000 and that Belgium is small triangle 300by150 km it isn't so bad. My grandfather was enlisted and then mobilised again when the surprise attac started. Except Japan and Germany, no country was ready for a 2nd war. He fought the full 18days till he stood on the beach in Zeebrugge where he was captured. He got (seriously) 10 rounds sealed issued in the last peacedays of may 1940. The sealing was inspected dayly. All the enlisted boys were shitscared to do something wrong. So, when the German gliders and troops showed up, nobody dared to take initiatives or fire. Lessons learned... Later he was called in by the germans to do forced labour, he refused and remained hidden between 2 walls for the next 4 years, unaware when this mess would ever stop. In 45, when the allied (mostly canadians and even Belgian troops) liberated Belgium they got a V1 on top of there farm. We are still waiting for the cow and bike to be returned from Germany.
So yes, we are aware about occupation and run overs. Lucky you guys had an ocean around you. In 1940 (and 1914), the US Army was also not prepared. It took 4 years to be. The Russians had to hold the shit together for 4 years solo.

He told me some wise things before he passed away (96yo) recently.
First, you only deserve the right for a safe place if you are willing to fight for.
Second, if you need to fight, make sure the guy on your side is willing to fight in the same way as you do.

The picture below shows one of my class rooms, this is how i teach 15 yo students the horrors of war. (I'm a civilian and military teacher now, so highschool and army reserve in the ballistic lab in the royal military academy)

About beeing at war, yep. I took the words of grandpa seriously and voluntared to be a captain in the Para Commando Bn (1BnPara)
So, now you know why my nickname here is PaCo.

I got my wings and 10hrs later i was on route to Somalia. Received 600 rounds and some 20 mags for 29 newbe people, no kidding i had a WTF moment. We traded Belgian MRE's for mags and took captured mags from bodies.

Perhaps you have seen the movie "black hawk down"? aside it is a great movie, it is very realisticly done.
I got involved is some "incidents" and i learned also some lessons.

*Beeing fired at with DShK ain't funny.
*Stone walls don't last long if you got pinned down.
*PKM's work very good and are a serious weapons system to deal with.
*skinnies rarely aim with AK's (luky me)

That's were a got a US GI with a seabee logo (=construction Bn?) trying to fire his M60. I think his swearing scared more skinnies as his round.
He had no burst longer as 3 rounds out of it before it jammed...


So, back to topic.
My point was that in 1958, the FN MAG was released. 60 years later, we still use the MAG Version 1.0
The only thing they modified was a picatiny rail on the feedcover and some minor things like the two piece pins are now onepiece pins.

So, @ wanneroo, if you claim that the M60 E6 is better as the M240, it can be. I hope so after 60 years.
But, E6 means that at least the weaponsystem if modified seriously enough for 6 times and that the previous 5times it still was a piece of...

Guess who needed to find out that it didn't work that fine, right, the little GI in the field. Before modifications go trough the whole logistic system, it takes 50 years to make it a bit ok.

The fact that the US bought the M240 (not much different with the MAG 58 aside a heatshield on the barrel and plastic stock) 25 years later, it hurts my feelings if i was a US GI.

My unit had still 1958 and 1963 dated MAG's in there hands, still going like a train. Aside some springs or a barrel changed, they are 100% the same as 60 years ago.BTW I never seen a younger MAG as 1963 in the Belgian Army.

Many countries bypassed the sparepart problem by having the gun made on there own soil. UK did it, SA, Pakistan, india, ...

But pushing trough a non working concept because it is "only made in the USA", it's plain evil to me.

I talked to some French officers, same chauvinistic answers, they really tought that the FAMAS was the greatest thing on earth. What a joke. It can't even fire NATO ammo, they got there own 5.56 ammo soft loaded...










So, no hard feelings here.
Thanks to your grandfathers (and others) there efforts (in WW2)

Paco
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Old September 07, 2018, 22:06   #126
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Nice GPMG. Always love to see one of them..........
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Old September 08, 2018, 02:10   #127
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Nice Mag!
I had once a batllecaptured cutaway for the Belgian army. They picked up the MAG in Congo, drilled it open and gave lessons with it.
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Old September 08, 2018, 07:44   #128
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German taxi drivers knew everything about everything.
Of course, its kinda hard to hide a full size hard rifle case.
Next time have legs/heads off an inflatable doll hanging out of it.
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Old September 08, 2018, 14:54   #129
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Next time have legs/heads off an inflatable doll hanging out of it.
Not me, I'm a peaceful old retired grand pappy, my days of all that crazy crap are well over and done with.
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Old September 08, 2018, 17:25   #130
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That GPMG had originally been with NZ Airforce then NZ Army then NZ Navy where it was sectionalised, the most difficult steel to machine on it was the gas block.
Do you have a better photo of your cutaway MAG58 ?


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Nice Mag!
I had once a batllecaptured cutaway for the Belgian army. They picked up the MAG in Congo, drilled it open and gave lessons with it.
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Old September 08, 2018, 17:39   #131
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My recollection was that the figure was/is 175000.


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What was nice about the Mag 58 is that it can go 150,000 rounds before anything internal breaks. Plus it will shoot straighter than the M-60 would
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Old September 08, 2018, 18:26   #132
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The Radio operator was issued the M16 because of carrying the radio. NZ Army did the same thing. I am not sure about the rationale behind issuing the point man the M16. Perhaps Andy can comment on it.
...... the M16 was never issued as a replacement to for the SLR, it was a supplementary weapon. In Infantry and other combat arms, post @1965 onward it was issued progressively (as we never had that many of them and in RVN they were initially transferred from one Btn to the next as they rotated in) as a replacement for the sub-machine gun. In Australian service these went to RTOs, Officers, Forward Scouts, Dog Handlers, generally those who had a role in the section/company that involved more than moving and fighting when the time came. In 66 you will still see (images from Long Tan abound) M16 alongside Owen Machine Carbines as the issue of the M16 remained adhoc. The SAS also made use of the M16 disproportionately to other units,

SLRs were still, by several orders of magnitude, the most common arm with Australian forces in the RVN.

Australia's limited use of the "Armalite" (as it was often called) started during Konfrontasi prior to significant involvement in Vietnam. At that time they were also making limited use of the MAG58 (or L7) so you can imagine their disappointment when issued M60 for the South East Asian games (I believe the MAG was Kiwi issue at that time but they used the M60 for Vietnam - not 100% on that)

Point/Scouts received M16s/SMGs as their contact/break contact drill often involved dumping a magazine on FA and moving back to the line. In the 80s it was still common for a Digger on point to be issued an F1 SMG.

The M16 was nominally withdrawn from service from 1988 with the progressive issue of the F88 (AUG). The SAS clung to them but they were then forced to adopt the F88 (they took them to Somalia) and then found enough issues with the F88 that they (and the CDOs) were able to acquire M4s. M16A1s (with M203s) were re-issued for a period in the early 2000s (notably for use in East Timor) as the F88/M203 was floundering and the 40mm remained desirable.
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Old September 08, 2018, 23:47   #133
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A mate was Radio operator(Signals) with NZ Army and said he was issued with a M16. he also mentioned how armourers would reset sights when in for service and he would have to testfire/reset the sights before gpoing on patrol etc.
He was always angry about their treatment on return home( because of anti war opinion) until NZ government made an apology to them at Parliament.
The M60 was used by NZ Army in Vietnam but they didn't like the fact it was possible to unwittingly incorrectly assemble it and consequently not fire. NZ Airforce helo's were certified/fitted for M60 and when US military disposed the M60 for the M240, Airforce purchased 10 new unissued M60D for $US100.00 ea through FMS then a few years later the MAG58 was adopted and the helo's were converted to MAG58D.
When the Fighter role was disbanded from NZ Airforce the GPMG/MAG58 were transferred to NZ Army.
Its possible the Sunderland flying boats had GPMG/MAG58 but don't have proof.
L7 was the Enfield built GPMG.



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Originally Posted by Andy the Aussie View Post
...... the M16 was never issued as a replacement to for the SLR, it was a supplementary weapon. In Infantry and other combat arms, post @1965 onward it was issued progressively (as we never had that many of them and in RVN they were initially transferred from one Btn to the next as they rotated in) as a replacement for the sub-machine gun. In Australian service these went to RTOs, Officers, Forward Scouts, Dog Handlers, generally those who had a role in the section/company that involved more than moving and fighting when the time came. In 66 you will still see (images from Long Tan abound) M16 alongside Owen Machine Carbines as the issue of the M16 remained adhoc. The SAS also made use of the M16 disproportionately to other units,

SLRs were still, by several orders of magnitude, the most common arm with Australian forces in the RVN.

Australia's limited use of the "Armalite" (as it was often called) started during Konfrontasi prior to significant involvement in Vietnam. At that time they were also making limited use of the MAG58 (or L7) so you can imagine their disappointment when issued M60 for the South East Asian games (I believe the MAG was Kiwi issue at that time but they used the M60 for Vietnam - not 100% on that)

Point/Scouts received M16s/SMGs as their contact/break contact drill often involved dumping a magazine on FA and moving back to the line. In the 80s it was still common for a Digger on point to be issued an F1 SMG.

The M16 was nominally withdrawn from service from 1988 with the progressive issue of the F88 (AUG). The SAS clung to them but they were then forced to adopt the F88 (they took them to Somalia) and then found enough issues with the F88 that they (and the CDOs) were able to acquire M4s. M16A1s (with M203s) were re-issued for a period in the early 2000s (notably for use in East Timor) as the F88/M203 was floundering and the 40mm remained desirable.

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Old September 09, 2018, 02:02   #134
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Old September 09, 2018, 02:04   #135
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I agree with Abominog that the handling characteristics of various FALs can be very different. The STG58 has some features that are truly stupid. No STG 58 owner is stuck with them. The boat anchor Stoll muzzle device can be replaced with the cut down version Falcon Arms calls US made, losing about 4oz. and the silly bi-pod, carry handle, and steel handguards are simply removed. A set of SA plastic NBPC hand-guards are far more comfortable, and don't burn your hands. The early type tall rear sight from Izzies/Argies and a 5 or 6 dot front post (easy to make), does wonders for fast sight acquisition. Now, the STG 58 is a far better handling rifle. The weight and balance is then nearly the same as the T 48. Correctness is irrelevant to the owner who uses the rifle. Any FAL can be personalized. The original configuration is just a starting place. Just do what works for you.
My experience with inch pattern rifles has proven them superior in ergonomics and handling. The folding rear sight and lack of last shot bolt hold open are my only complaints. The F1 is a little less muzzle heavy, but works as well as any L1A1. The M16/M4 tho, has poor handling characteristics, marginal stopping power, and limited penetration. It's easy to carry but is less than effective.
If the US adopted the FAL, I like to think it would have been improved to correct any real problems.
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Old September 09, 2018, 17:48   #136
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Thanks Paco, I like the way whole sections were cut away to display the mechanism.
My example was constrained by following set requirements for the process. I obtained a plastic buttstock to simplify exposing the buffer unit and a sustained fire backplate to close off the back so that the complete unit could be stored in the transit case.


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Old September 09, 2018, 22:02   #137
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The FN FAL is one of the greatest battle rifles ever made. Politics caused the U.S. Army to pass on it while nearly every other NATO country in the world recognized its superiority. And the 7.62 NATO is one of the greatest battle rounds ever made. But we needed an intermediate round. Here’s the story.

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there is no large weapon or quantity purchases that don't have a political stamp all over it.
And close to the same time period and theatre of usage, politics again reared its head and replaced the OH-6 / Hughes 500C with an OH-58 / Bell 206A.
Politics . . . Yep ! . . . . . . . More so private profits.

Last edited by Scout10; September 09, 2018 at 22:13.
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Old September 12, 2018, 10:43   #138
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I prefer the FAL as an overall design but its not vastly superior to the M14. Being cooler looking, a little faster to clean the gas tube, and a little more ergonomic aren't world beaters IMHO. The rear sight on the FAL and especially the L1A1 sucks royal goulash. For long range shooting I much much prefer the U.S. rifle.
The FAL was vastly better than the M14 (I'm talking MILITARY rifles here, not civilian semi-auto's). Take a look at what lead to the US dumping the M14 and you'll agree.

M14's were having to be rebuilt after just 3,000 rounds because they weren't passing the very generous accuracy standards of 5.4" at 100 yards!

The entire program was flawed from day one. Col. Rene Studler began the slow moving train wreck by laying out the criteria for the rifle at the very beginning. He required the new rifle have 80% or greater parts interchangeability with the Garand. Right there the program was doomed before they even got started.

The M14 has some very serious design flaws that lead to the rifle not being able to maintain accuracy standards. And as flawed as the rifle was, the "program" (from design to manufacturing) was a disaster from the first day on up until the moment the M14 was discarded for the M16.

The Army, and Springfield Armory put constraints on the design that forced the "designers" to take the design in directions no sane person would have desired to take the rifle.

Still, many liked the M14 because it "hid" its flaws, and hid them well. Regardless of the features that were adopted that were horribly obsolete. Or the features that caused the rifle to constantly become less and less accurate with each pull of the trigger... The rifle was reliable in field conditions, the sights were world class, as was the trigger (for a military weapon that is). Because of this, even with its poor mechanical accuracy, most shooters hit what they were aiming at, which gave them confidence in the weapon system.

A rifle that only shoots 6MOA is far more capable than most think. A shooter who is given a rifle that has magnificent sights, and a very good trigger; can still hit most things he shoots at. Which means the rifle "hides" the fact that it's not an especially accurate rifle.




Check out this quote from Lt. Colonel Chandler owner of Iron Brigade Armory and former Officer in Charge of many USMC marksmanship and sniping programs:

“Remember that the US Army struggled for more than twenty years to transform the M14 into a sniper type weapon. The Army finally abandoned all attempts to salvage the M14 rifle. Continued use of the M14 as anything other than a drill rifle is better described as DISASTER. ( emphasis Chandler’s) The M14 is old and has never been more than a modified M1 Garand. “

“Unfortunately the M14 rifle is costly to modify and modification requires many man-hours of skilled labor. In the field, the M14 cannot maintain accuracy. The Army refused to admit that they could not solve the M14’s accuracy problems and wasted two decades attempting to make a silk purse from an old infantry rifle. Milspec spare parts are no longer made and those that can be found are often inferior, and ill-fitting. “

“The M14 requires constant ( continual ) maintenance. Maintenance on an M14 progress geometrically. That means if you double an M14 rifle’s use, you quadruple its maintenance. “
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Old September 12, 2018, 11:17   #139
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...Hell we copied so many other military things from the Germans why didn't we just mass produce the StG 44 ?
When the engineers at Springfield Armory inspected and evaluated the MP44, they were completely unimpressed, and had no interest in such a rifle. This is why they moved forward with the M14 rather than build an assault rifle.

The Russians on the other hand had been onto the assault rifle thing for a LONG time, and even had something VERY close to an assault rifle back in 1916. So the Russians weren't copying the MP44 so much as they were resuming their assault rifle program. Contrary to popular lore, the AK isn't a copy of the MP44...I can't find a single feature on the AK that you can trace back to the MP44. On the flip side, the MP44 does incorporate at least one feature that can be traced to an earlier Russian assault rifle design.

I will say the overall layout of the AK is very similar to the MP44. Other than that, the MP44 clearly borrows heavily from US and Russian designs. The gas piston/bolt carrier looks nearly identical to the Russian Sudavev AS-44. The rotating bolt of the AK is a simplified version of a Garand bolt. The fire control group is CLEARLY Garand with some full auto parts added in.
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Old September 12, 2018, 15:24   #140
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...Hell we copied so many other military things from the Germans why didn't we just mass produce the StG 44 ?
Another reason is the MP-43/44/StG-44 design is not all that great a design.

It weighs over 10 lbs empty (more than an empty .308 FAL or M14 with wood furniture and the same weight as the FG-42 that used the full power 8mm), the main spring is housed by nothing more than a hole in the wood stock, the trigger mechanism is a clock-work of parts, the critical bolt/op-rod parts are exposed through the ejection port, it's not very ergonomic, etc.

As a concept, it's a good idea, but there are better designed applications of that concept. Even the Germans didn't re-visit the design, but came up with better, simpler, lighter designs....
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Old September 12, 2018, 16:52   #141
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A good shooter can make a bad rifle shoot accurately but a bad shooter cannot necssarily make a good rifle shoot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HanShotFirst View Post
The FAL was vastly better than the M14 (I'm talking MILITARY rifles here, not civilian semi-auto's). Take a look at what lead to the US dumping the M14 and you'll agree.

M14's were having to be rebuilt after just 3,000 rounds because they weren't passing the very generous accuracy standards of 5.4" at 100 yards!

The entire program was flawed from day one. Col. Rene Studler began the slow moving train wreck by laying out the criteria for the rifle at the very beginning. He required the new rifle have 80% or greater parts interchangeability with the Garand. Right there the program was doomed before they even got started.

The M14 has some very serious design flaws that lead to the rifle not being able to maintain accuracy standards. And as flawed as the rifle was, the "program" (from design to manufacturing) was a disaster from the first day on up until the moment the M14 was discarded for the M16.

The Army, and Springfield Armory put constraints on the design that forced the "designers" to take the design in directions no sane person would have desired to take the rifle.

Still, many liked the M14 because it "hid" its flaws, and hid them well. Regardless of the features that were adopted that were horribly obsolete. Or the features that caused the rifle to constantly become less and less accurate with each pull of the trigger... The rifle was reliable in field conditions, the sights were world class, as was the trigger (for a military weapon that is). Because of this, even with its poor mechanical accuracy, most shooters hit what they were aiming at, which gave them confidence in the weapon system.

A rifle that only shoots 6MOA is far more capable than most think. A shooter who is given a rifle that has magnificent sights, and a very good trigger; can still hit most things he shoots at. Which means the rifle "hides" the fact that it's not an especially accurate rifle.




Check out this quote from Lt. Colonel Chandler owner of Iron Brigade Armory and former Officer in Charge of many USMC marksmanship and sniping programs:

“Remember that the US Army struggled for more than twenty years to transform the M14 into a sniper type weapon. The Army finally abandoned all attempts to salvage the M14 rifle. Continued use of the M14 as anything other than a drill rifle is better described as DISASTER. ( emphasis Chandler’s) The M14 is old and has never been more than a modified M1 Garand. “

“Unfortunately the M14 rifle is costly to modify and modification requires many man-hours of skilled labor. In the field, the M14 cannot maintain accuracy. The Army refused to admit that they could not solve the M14’s accuracy problems and wasted two decades attempting to make a silk purse from an old infantry rifle. Milspec spare parts are no longer made and those that can be found are often inferior, and ill-fitting. “

“The M14 requires constant ( continual ) maintenance. Maintenance on an M14 progress geometrically. That means if you double an M14 rifle’s use, you quadruple its maintenance. “
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Old September 13, 2018, 21:32   #142
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IRT the M-14 fiasco; the Italians managed to engineer the conversion of the Garand after about five years from the end of WWII and came up with what the US should have gone with, the BM-59. Let the screaming begin, heh, heh. 'Course it was still a bit of a heavy beast.
And Norm Chandler, Jr. reworked my Remmy 700 for me back in the late '80's. Guy knew his stuff.
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Old September 14, 2018, 08:22   #143
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Originally Posted by HanShotFirst View Post
The rotating bolt of the AK is a simplified version of a Garand bolt. The fire control group is CLEARLY Garand with some full auto parts added in.
Garand

AK

STG44
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File Type: png STG44_FCG.png (81.9 KB, 2 views)
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