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Old February 10, 2019, 13:47   #1
Kaltesherz
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Bought Argy FMAP Para mixmaster, what can you tell me about it?

My state is quickly clamping down on gun rights, so I'm trying to pick up bucket list rifles while I can.

I won an Argy Para on GB and had a few questions about it. While I'm pretty knowledgeable on ARs, AKs, and HK stuff, I don't know much about FALs aside from what I've been able to find on here. I've been wanting a FAL, preferably a Para, but wanted to avoid issues with DSA stuff so I jumped on guy:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796594076

It looks like someone built it using a FMAP receiver and an Argy parts kit. I was hoping the Para parts were also Argy but it looks like they're not. My biggest concern is the sights, after winning the auction I read about open eared front sights being higher than closed eared, so I wonder if whomever built this rifle used the wrong parts and now these sights will be "off". I did find a vid on YouTube of someone claiming to have an original matching FMAP Para, and it has sights similar to these so I'm hoping I'll still be good.

What can you guys tell me? I can't pick it up for a few more days, and if I need to order a tall Izzy rear sight to fix it I'd rather do it sooner than later.
Thanks!
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Old February 10, 2019, 13:58   #2
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Folder looks like a mil spec. Not sure if it’s argy. I don’t know the difference. The open ear gas block needs a tall tombstone Argy sight. Shoot it and see it shoots hopelessly low.
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Old February 10, 2019, 14:18   #3
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Argie para for eighteen, you did well.
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Old February 10, 2019, 14:31   #4
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Argie para

I am 99% sure the seller is a member here on the files.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltesherz View Post
My state is quickly clamping down on gun rights, so I'm trying to pick up bucket list rifles while I can.

I won an Argy Para on GB and had a few questions about it. While I'm pretty knowledgeable on ARs, AKs, and HK stuff, I don't know much about FALs aside from what I've been able to find on here. I've been wanting a FAL, preferably a Para, but wanted to avoid issues with DSA stuff so I jumped on guy:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796594076

It looks like someone built it using a FMAP receiver and an Argy parts kit. I was hoping the Para parts were also Argy but it looks like they're not. My biggest concern is the sights, after winning the auction I read about open eared front sights being higher than closed eared, so I wonder if whomever built this rifle used the wrong parts and now these sights will be "off". I did find a vid on YouTube of someone claiming to have an original matching FMAP Para, and it has sights similar to these so I'm hoping I'll still be good.

What can you guys tell me? I can't pick it up for a few more days, and if I need to order a tall Izzy rear sight to fix it I'd rather do it sooner than later.
Thanks!
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Old February 10, 2019, 14:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltblown View Post
Folder looks like a mil spec. Not sure if it’s argy. I don’t know the difference. The open ear gas block needs a tall tombstone Argy sight. Shoot it and see it shoots hopelessly low.
Do you have a source for an Argy sight? Would a tall Izzy rear sight work? Decent ranges for 7.62 NATO are a few hours drive, so I'd like to bring a tall rear sight to swap out during zeroing.
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Old February 10, 2019, 14:53   #6
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Interesting rifle.

Looking at the ARMSCORP 1989 catalog it appears their Argentine import did have a 2 position rear sight on the open ear 50.63 folding stock model FAL so that may be correct. It also had a bipod barrel unlike the military model which had a non-bipod barrel. The Argentine "Bush" model has the standard butt stock with the high rear sight and open ear gas block. The cocking handles were non-folding.
So, it appears you have a close copy of the ARMSCORP Argentine import less the upper receiver which is most likely a post ban SAC Latta, SC import.
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Last edited by DakTo; February 10, 2019 at 15:17.
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Old February 10, 2019, 14:55   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltesherz View Post
Do you have a source for an Argy sight? Would a tall Izzy rear sight work? Decent ranges for 7.62 NATO are a few hours drive, so I'd like to bring a tall rear sight to swap out during zeroing.
Check Aezcur. He might can find you one. The one you want has a line across the sides of the aperture.
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Old February 10, 2019, 15:05   #8
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A standard rear sight base can't be used on a para because of the knuckle correct?
Find a Argie short gas block and sight parts, swap the gas blocks out and be done with it.
That's my .02
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Old February 10, 2019, 15:16   #9
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A standard rear sight base can't be used on a para because of the knuckle correct?
Find a Argie short gas block and sight parts, swap the gas blocks out and be done with it.
That's my .02
Yep you're right. I was wondering that too. Pulled one out of the safe and yep, you can't put a regular sight on it.
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Old February 10, 2019, 15:28   #10
Kaltesherz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
Interesting rifle.

Looking at the ARMSCORP 1989 catalog it appears their Argentine import did have a 2 position rear sight on the open ear 50.63 folding stock model FAL so that may be correct. It also had a bipod barrel unlike the military model which had a non-bipod barrel. The Argentine "Bush" model has the standard butt stock with the high rear sight and open ear gas block. The cocking handles were non-folding.
So, it appears you have a close copy of the ARMSCORP Argentine import less the upper receiver which is most likely a post ban SAC Latta, SC import.
Here's the vid that shows what appears to be Pre Ban Argy Para with open eared front sight- guys pretty annoying but it at least gives me hope. If if not I'll send it to ARS to swap out the front gas blocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hE2eJ34Hew
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Old February 10, 2019, 16:07   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltesherz View Post
Here's the vid that shows what appears to be Pre Ban Argy Para with open eared front sight- guys pretty annoying but it at least gives me hope. If if not I'll send it to ARS to swap out the front gas blocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hE2eJ34Hew
[chortle] He said "clips". He's a "highly trained professional, too.
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Old February 10, 2019, 16:22   #12
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Wasn't someone on here selling a shorter version of a slider base that work with a Para stock ? ( apex?) Put your argue tall aperture on it and you could save some cash for the moment.

Found it it was gun things.
Description,ramp specially made to fit the paratrooper and utilize the standard sight aperture. This is not a standard ramp which was shortened, but actually a specialty ramp with different yardage settings. New

Last edited by Olaf; February 10, 2019 at 16:34.
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Old February 10, 2019, 16:51   #13
Kaltesherz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf View Post
Wasn't someone on here selling a shorter version of a slider base that work with a Para stock ? ( apex?) Put your argue tall aperture on it and you could save some cash for the moment.

Found it it was gun things.
Description,ramp specially made to fit the paratrooper and utilize the standard sight aperture. This is not a standard ramp which was shortened, but actually a specialty ramp with different yardage settings. New
Link?
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Old February 10, 2019, 16:57   #14
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Kalt, you don't know what you have till you shoot it. If it shoots low then, yep you need to find a solution. If you bottom out the front and flip the aperature to 250 and it shoots fine, then I would leave it be.
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Old February 10, 2019, 17:11   #15
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Old February 10, 2019, 17:14   #16
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Good memory. Sure opens up the OP's possibilities
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Old February 10, 2019, 17:34   #17
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Thad be it
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Old February 10, 2019, 18:05   #18
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Thanks guys, I really appreciate your help!
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Old February 10, 2019, 21:46   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltesherz View Post
It looks like someone built it using a FMAP receiver and an Argy parts kit. I was hoping the Para parts were also Argy but it looks like they're not....
I'd say you did very well on your purchase of an "Argy on Argy" PARA.

The upper receiver, as someone said, is most likely from an Argentine rifle that was imported by SAC of Latta, SC after the 1992 assault weapon import ban. These rifles had to be broken down and sold as front & back halves to get around the stupid import restrictions. The receiver usually has a small "SAC - Latta, SC" stamp inside the mag well.

The Argentine PARA kit looks like one of the kits imported by Recon Ordnance and sold in a FALfiles group buy for $635 by member FWRA back in 2002. I have one exactly like it. As I recall, these were imported as kits from de-milled rifles of an Argentine Police agency.

The PARA lower is identified as Argentine by the proofmark just to the rear of the takedown lever (pic #7 in GB listing). The folding stock is Argy "mil-spec"; it has the release button on the bottom of the hinge mechanism, unlike DSA's PARA stock. The PARA bolt carrier is clearly identified as Argy by the proof mark shown in pic #10. Obviously the bolt matches it (there may be a corresponding proof on it somewhere). Your barrel is Argy based on the proofmark on barrel flat (pic #2). However, it is not the original barrel that came with these PARA kits. The original barrel was 21", bipod-cut with closed ear gas block. (Just an FYI: member Falfegnügen has/had Argy barrel #127008 that matches your Bolt/carrier )

Hopefully your upper receiver was correctly modified with the PARA cut to properly fit the nose of the original dust cover. That front sling swivel is interesting; it's not "standard" on these PARA kits -- an aftermarket mod I'm guessing??? Also, smack me if I'm wrong, but your barrel looks overtimed in pic #1

Last edited by TraFALgar; February 10, 2019 at 22:33.
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Old February 10, 2019, 23:45   #20
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Damn, that's an impressive amount of knowledge! I'm really impressed...

If that upper was imported complete, then the overtimed barrel (good eye) would have been done at the factory, so I'm assuming it's headspaced correctly.

I can take more detailed pics once I pick it up in a few days.

Open eared front sights use Izzy sight tools correct?
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Old February 11, 2019, 00:21   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltesherz View Post
Damn, that's an impressive amount of knowledge! I'm really impressed...

If that upper was imported complete, then the overtimed barrel (good eye) would have been done at the factory, so I'm assuming it's headspaced correctly.

I can take more detailed pics once I pick it up in a few days.

Open eared front sights use Izzy sight tools correct?
What TraFALgar is getting at with the barrel timing is, the sight alignment will be way off until the barrel is correctly timed.
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Old February 11, 2019, 02:53   #22
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Nice Argy para kit , looks mostly Argy except for the grip which is a 922 compliance part, you can tell from the mold circles on the sides
also it should say made in USA inside the grip
I would also check under the handguards , they are they easiest Argy part to find
the stock looks legit , there should be an A or closed U in the hollowed out part of the buttpad , but I only have two examples for reference

I would have this rifle checked out by someone that knows FALs as the barrel looks cockeyed in the photos as others have pointed out

once you have this rifle squared away, it will become your favorite as has mine
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Old February 11, 2019, 11:37   #23
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Exclamation Headspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaltesherz View Post
If that upper was imported complete, then the overtimed barrel (good eye) would have been done at the factory, so I'm assuming it's headspaced correctly.
Uhhh ... assume nothing (esp. regarding headspace)
The complete barreled front end as it left the factory may have been properly timed & headspaced. However this short barrel may have been installed in Bubba’s garage & it may not be correctly headspaced. You should have it checked before firing. After all, the seller said he “never fired it not one time”.
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Old February 11, 2019, 13:41   #24
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Will do, thanks again.
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Old February 11, 2019, 20:16   #25
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You have a barreled upper from a Sac Latta rifle that was split up like this:



It probably has the original barrel that's been chopped down. However, the paint looks a little different on the barrel and the receiver. The serial numbers were marked on the underside of the barrel, about half way between the gas block and muzzle.

All your parts currently have the original finish. I wouldn't refinish the rifle. Be sure to check your serial numbers with this chart, and report yours in the thread.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ok2db8dt3...01_05.pdf?dl=0
https://www.falfiles.com/forums/show...277160&page=41
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Old February 11, 2019, 22:56   #26
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The sight question first needs to be quantitatively measured as the distance from POI to POA at a known distance. After these results are established you can learn which of the 3 FAL sight line heights the front sight/gas block was made for. Most open ear gas blocks use the "high" sight line like late BGS, early Argentine, and Israeli rifles. Some open ear gas blocks work with an even higher sight line ie. the early BGS/inch design. There were even some open ear gas blocks for the low sight line generally seen with close ear gas blocks. The selection of rear sights that work with the folding stocks is largely limited to the low sight line. An exception would be the Canadian disc or snow sight or the short metric ramp that can accept the Izzy rear sight blade. If the gas block is the most common high or Izzy system, the Canadian may work because short barrel FALs shoot so low. The three sight lines relate to each other as follows;
1. The low or closed ear height requested by a knucklehead officer with the Bundeswehr.
2. The common open ear/Izzy hieght that is 3mm higher.
3. The early BGS, EX2, FAL Canada, and inch pattern, that's another 3mm higher.
Too bad the pinhead in the youtube video had no idea where the rounds hit. We may have learned something if he displayed a target.
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