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Old February 11, 2018, 13:55   #1
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Does anyone here desire lawful money ?

You might if you knew the benifits of accepting, holding, spending it.


Below statement from a group member.

This is enough info for me to have some more fun at the local bank where I have a checking account. About a year ago I very politely showed the lady at the counter a print-out of 12 USC 411 and asked to have my FRN’s converted to lawful money. She asked the bank manager to look at it. The manager went to the door of the bank, held it open and demanded that I get out of the bank.











A reminder of some*good,.. no, excellent resesrch by Jaro, from Sovereign Warriors...


A freiend on Faceful said there is no lawful money...

I shared this...


True...unless you know about endorcing checks* per 12 USC 411

12USC411 demand for lawful money.*

The current demand (paycheck indorsement)* is:

SPECIAL DEPOSIT*

Demand is made for Lawful Money

Pursuant to title 12USC411

(From the man Jaro at Sovereign Warriors)...

The current demand (paycheck indorsement) we're using is:

SPECIAL DEPOSIT*

Demand is made for Lawful Money

Pursuant to title 12USC411

Jaro Henry Smith, dba JARO HXXXX SMXXX

The above is what is called a, "Non-indorsement indorsement." For you are electing to NOT indorse private credit, and are electing to indorse Public Money which is both interest free and tax free. And Lawful Money is without the United States. Therefore, wherever Lawful Money is demanded, it creates a non-taxable event that DOES NOT fall under the jurisdictional controls that would otherwise govern the transaction if you were to indorse private credit by a general indorsment. Specifically, that which governs the GENERAL INDORSEMENT of the private credit of the private Federal Reserve Bank is the non-positive Title 26 of the United States Code (USC), wherein constitutors who have agreed by the indorsement of private credit to pay the debts of the United States (National Debt) and are indeed contractually obligated and duty bound to perform accordingly. This is why the IRS exists.

David Merrill mentions a guy who added this verbiage to his bank signature card:

"He’d been redeeming lawful money on his signature card with his bank. He’d altered the signature card for the authorizing signature to redeem lawful money on every transaction.

They called him, under false pretenses, saying his wife had trouble with her account. So, he went into the bank and then found out that they were telling him, “We’re closing down your accounts unless you change it back.” So, he changed it back because he needed the accounts.

What we did is we got him a certified copy of this from the County Clerk and Recorder in Colorado Springs, and then he took it up to Denver, showed it to them and they allowed him to redeem lawful money on his account by signature card again. They allowed him to change it back.

This suitor is a state employee in California. He retroactively got refunds from the state for two years by simply declaring, in effect, “If I had known in good faith I could have been redeeming lawful money, I would have been doing so for these past two years.”"


So he forced his bank to accept his demand for lawful money on a signature card, by giving them a CERTIFIED copy of 12USC411. You can get it from a county recorder, by calling 7195206200 and asking for reception #207015932 filed February 5, 2007.

This also raises the possibility of redeeming withholdings. That is to say, if an employee is having withholdings sent to the IRS during the year, he could get a full refund by redeeming lawful money simply by proving that he had been redeeming lawful money all year long. Which is to say, if he showed that refund check to his boss, his boss might discontinue withholding because the IRS had been unlawfully using the interest on all those funds during that year before he got his refund.

This would probably be best done by sending a bank a NOTICE that you demand redemption of all bank account deposits in lawful money, pursuant to 12USC411, from now until a futher notice. Add to that a copy of the certified 12USC411 from county recorder, and send it certified to the bank. Then a copy of that notice would be your proof, which you could then send to the IRS and State Franchise Board in regard to your income tax liability, or when asking for a refund of the taxes you already paid. And when doing that, I'd cc a copy of the Notice to the IRS in Washington DC, immediately.I.e. “If I had known in good faith I could have been redeeming lawful money, I would have been doing so for these past seven years. Please refund all the income tax payment (or withholdings) for the past 7 years.”


So it's your choice; Either accept PRIVATE CREDIT from the Fed (by general indorsement of your paychecks), or get an equivalent of lawful money, by a 12USC411 Demand for lawful money.

And if someone tells you that you don’t have the right to redeem lawful money, just show them Title 12 Section 411 [United States Code] and Section 16 of the Federal Reserve Act. That’s your remedy. That’s the law that says so, and it’s current law.

And if they tell you you’re doing it incorrectly, then simply say, “Well then the burden is on you to show me how it’s done correctly.”

Plus, the US Supreme Court has ruled twice on the validity of Lawful Money in U.S. v RICKMAN (1980),http://openjurist.org/638/f2d/182/un...es-v-a-rickman, and as recently as U.S. v. WARE (2002),http://openjurist.org/282/f3d/902/united-states-v-ware. Both cases clearly affirm the fact that the Federal Reserve Note can be either a Federal Reserve Note OR a United States Note. Additionally, these two cases were decided after 1938, when courts changed from courts of Law (common law), to courts of STATUTES (admiralty/statutory jurisdiction). So if you do not demand Lawful Money then it is assumed that it's your intent to indorse private credit.So a demand for lawful money becomes what is called, "Paper Gold", as it's an equivalent of real gold, via "Special Drawing Rights."

You also can read David's long article about this here:

https://keystoliberty2.wordpress.com...12-section-411


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Old February 11, 2018, 14:00   #2
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Fascinating stuff - now, if everyone pursued this legal process of demanding 'Lawful Money' - where does that lead, I wonder?!
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Old February 11, 2018, 14:08   #3
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Hopefully the end of FRN or the FED itself.
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Old February 11, 2018, 14:53   #4
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WTF is lawful money?
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Old February 11, 2018, 15:07   #5
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I'll tell you what it's not!!

The shit you carry in your wallet!!

It's as close to what the US constitution calls money as we can get at the moment.

It's not a FRN (Federal Reserve Note).

Think about the name above for a damn minute what is a note ?

Here I'll take your FAL and scribble you a note, OK with you right!!

Well that's about what you accept when you accept a FRN.

The FRN is not backed by anything tangeable at all.




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WTF is lawful money?
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Old February 11, 2018, 15:52   #6
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OK
Then what do we need for lawful money? Some metal that no one really gives a shit about, something like gold. About the only thing it gets used for is jewelry. Never really been into it much. Why is it valuable?
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Old February 11, 2018, 16:26   #7
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Read the first post completely, that may she'd some light for you.

It has nothing to do with gold or silver in this instance even if at one time in this countries history up until 1970's the term lawful money was defined in US Code, Title 12 USC.


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OK
Then what do we need for lawful money? Some metal that no one really gives a shit about, something like gold. About the only thing it gets used for is jewelry. Never really been into it much. Why is it valuable?
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Old February 11, 2018, 19:26   #8
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Yes, when you endorse checks, you will receive "lawful money" from the bank. The SCOTUS determined in Juilliard v. Greenman that "SEC. 3588. United States notes shall be lawful money, and a legal tender in payment of all debts, public and private, within the United States, except for duties on imports and interest on the public debt." This case was heard in 1884. In 1974, the Ninth Circuit determined in Milam V US that Milam's demand for "lawful money" which he stated was either gold or silver was in fact a frivolous suit and rejected his claim outright. It used the previously referenced case as a reference to their decision.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../421/case.html
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...24/629/430631/
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Old February 11, 2018, 19:44   #9
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Is a Bitcoin lawful money?
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Old February 11, 2018, 19:53   #10
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No, but I'm sure purchasing a bit coin or any other criptocurrency with lawful money would be looked at as better than using debt currency to purchase, but if the end result is the same the only benifit would be never taxable if you know how.

Lawful money in actual form is no longer in existence but there is a remedy in 12 USC 411, that's what the first post was about reread it.
http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-12...-sect-411.html

Google Lawful Money title 12 section 152

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF...12+section+152



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Is a Bitcoin lawful money?

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Old February 11, 2018, 20:20   #11
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That is about what I would expect from the 9th circus COA.

Did they also change the definition of a dollar to other than xx amount of grains of silver or gold ?

Don't remember if it was the coinage act or constitution.

The definition of lawful money was in 12USC152 so that became burdensome and they conveniently deleted that part of 12USC and attempted to meld it with legal tender.

I should post up my old 10 FRN that in the motto on left side of portrait says that this note is redeemable in lawful money..

If it fits their needs they change the words around at will.



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Old February 11, 2018, 20:46   #12
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This topic puzzles me.

I have some thinkulating to do about this concept of "lawful money".

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Old February 11, 2018, 21:22   #13
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Well look at it this way the founding fathers wanted money to have actual value not be fiat.

Not be able to be manipulated by a crooked group like the FED.

So they said a dollar is xxx grains of silver or cold in the coinage act 1892 or somewhat in that area.

And title 12USC chapter 2 section 152 said (somewhere before mid to late 1970's ) lawful money is gold or silver coin minted by us government. Not word for word but that's the gist of it.

So with the pic of the "motto" from the 1934 10 FRN, what do you think you might get when you try and redeem that note for lawful money ?

This was a transition trick that government used so that people back in that day and age were just getting use to paper money and wanted some assurance that they could get their gold and silver coin or real money as they saw it back then as its all they knew.



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This topic puzzles me.

I have some thinkulating to do about this concept of "lawful money".


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Old February 11, 2018, 21:33   #14
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....Does anyone here desire lawful money ?


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Nope.

I am good with barter.


Thanks !


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Old February 12, 2018, 01:31   #15
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More talk of lawful money and how conversion from FRN into LM finds tax refunds.

IE lawful money not taxable.


http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showt...y-per-US-Code&
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Old February 12, 2018, 07:11   #16
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respectfully withdrawn.

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Old February 12, 2018, 14:49   #17
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What question do you have ?

Not all things are easily explained.

Ask your question and I'll do my best to answer it if I can.



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You never seem to give a straight answer. If questioned, you dodge responding and then flood even more ....content...into the discussion, but you never actually ever answer any questions or clarify anything.

I guess nobody can win, or lose...if the Wheel keeps getting spun, rather then letting it land on anything.


my random, unsolicited observation.
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Old February 12, 2018, 15:08   #18
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WTF is lawful money?
^^ The real question. Money is what the parties involved in a transaction say it is. In its simplest form money is something that represents value rather than containing it intrinsically. Innumerable things have been used as money in the past including wampum beads, tulip bulbs, seashells and so on. Today we have verified solutions of mathematical algorithms being used, and therefore defined as money (hello bitcoin I'm talking about you). It therefore follows that lawful money is money which is not illegal to use.

Note that a thing does not need to be of low intrinsic value to be money, for example PMs have been used as money for a long time. But things of intrinsic value are generally referred to as commodities, not money. It's the usage to facilitate transactions that confers the moniker of 'money' on a thing, there really is nothing native to the thing itself that makes it so.

The phrase 'lawful money' has been promoted and used in years past to help confer some sort of special status on certain things to help create and aura and establish confidence around this thing or that being 'lawful money'. Oddly enough it has seemed that those who tend to use the phrase also tend to possess a fair amount of what they would assign the phrase to. Like for example the central bankers. A cynical bastard like myself might wonder if there weren't an ulterior motive or two lurking there somewhere.

As an aside it's worth remembering that those who seek to establish and/or bolster an unwarranted level of confidence in a thing are generally referred to as 'con men'.
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Old February 12, 2018, 15:13   #19
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Looks like section 152 was repealed in 1974. So no longer a law/statute.
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Old February 12, 2018, 15:18   #20
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Those learned in such things will answer his question directly, lawful money was defined in title 12 USC CHAPTER II SECTION 152. gold and silver coin minted by the United states.

So if I didn't answer it in the past like has been said of some things there it is.

But Bubba keep in mind that money and lawful money are not the same thing.

And since there is evidence of a FRN at one time being redeemable in lawful money this tends to make a man of reasonable intelligence think that legal tender and lawful money aren't the same thing.


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^^ The real question. Money is what the parties involved in a transaction say it is. In its simplest form money is something that represents value rather than containing it intrinsically. Innumerable things have been used as money in the past including wampum beads, tulip bulbs, seashells and so on. Today we have verified solutions of mathematical algorithms being used, and therefore defined as money (hello bitcoin I'm talking about you). It therefore follows that lawful money is money which is not illegal to use.

Note that a thing does not need to be of low intrinsic value to be money, for example PMs have been used as money for a long time. But things of intrinsic value are generally referred to as commodities, not money. It's the usage to facilitate transactions that confers the moniker of 'money' on a thing, there really is nothing native to the thing itself that makes it so.
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Old February 12, 2018, 15:21   #21
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So you think that because a statute is repealed that the definition ceases to be the same ?

12USC411 still is in force and talks of lawful money within.

I would look in a 4th edition blacks law dictionary.

Don't have access to one at the moment, away from my AO.


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Looks like section 152 was repealed in 1974. So no longer a law/statute.
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Old February 12, 2018, 17:02   #22
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Those learned in such things will answer his question directly, lawful money was defined in title 12 USC CHAPTER II SECTION 152. gold and silver coin minted by the United states.

So if I didn't answer it in the past like has been said of some things there it is.

But Bubba keep in mind that money and lawful money are not the same thing.

And since there is evidence of a FRN at one time being redeemable in lawful money this tends to make a man of reasonable intelligence think that legal tender and lawful money aren't the same thing
.
They are not the same thing. There is money and then there is/are a list of things the state says must be accepted as money, ergo 'lawful money'. As in the case of money there are legal drugs and there are illegal drugs. But deeming something legal (lawful) or not does not change the essential nature of a thing, it only defines how the state can act in response to it. This assuming the state itself limits its activities to lawful ones, itself a rather dubious assumption.

Understand (rhetorical, of course you do ) that the state really only gets to say what money is when the state is a party in the transaction. Like when it is collecting taxes, paying for services or similar things. Outside of this it really has no good recourse for several reasons not the least of which is the transaction could be conducted outside of it's jurisdiction, or perhaps not at all.

To the point of distinguishing between lawful money and FRNs, yes you are correct. Certainly the state would have us believe that there are many differences between lawful money, legal tender, etc etc. It thrives on creating artificial complexity as this transfers a mysterious, near-magical quality to the whole idea of 'money' in the first place. It shrouds the process of monetary creation in a veil of mystery and they like that as they don't want folks to know the truth about how it is really created. Shlomo and I spent many excellent hours traveling to and from the range evaluating the ins and outs of this very point. Best I can come up with is that it was mainly included to help coax the marks to use a new type of script rather than what they were accustomed to, and the reason I say this is that FRNs were always in fact lawful given that laws were passed to support their issue and use. What was and remains dubious is whether or not they, like their greenback predecessors were ever money. And the answer to this ultimately burns back to what the great unwashed have to say about 'em.

At the end of the day the Feds can define stuff however they want but they can no more affect what money is and is not than they can change the direction of time, the second law of thermodynamics or the irrational nature of the constant Pi, which incidentally they've actually tried to do too.
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Old February 12, 2018, 17:16   #23
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...............

At the end of the day the Feds can define stuff however they want but they can no more affect what money is and is not than they can change the direction of time, the second law of thermodynamics or the irrational nature of the constant Pi, which incidentally they've actually tried to do too.
Two other Laws come to mind-

Barnum's Law- " There's a sucker born every minute."

And Gilman's 3rd Collegiate Law- " In every group or organization, the ratio of shitheads is constant."


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Old February 12, 2018, 17:20   #24
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Two other Laws come to mind-

Barnum's Law- " There's a sucker born every minute."

And Gilman's 3rd Collegiate Law- " In every group or organization, the ratio of shitheads is constant."


Damn son, did not know what an optimist you are. I really hope you're right about the second at least because there are times when that ain't so apparent from where I'm sitting
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Old February 12, 2018, 17:44   #25
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One of the reasons Lawful Money is desired at least in the circles I travel in is that FRNS have debt associated with them hence the term debt currency comes to mind, but not so with money that was in circulation in the early to mid 1960's and those FRN'S that were converted into United States notes (red seal notes) aka lawful money currency.

We as a population didn't pay a national Corp to manage US Notes (FED) as we do with FED Reserve notes aka debt currency this IMO is what creates inflation that and fractional reserve banking, study that one if you have plenty of hair you don't mind pulling out.

Banks IMnsHO are legal film flam artists, crooks, scammers!!!
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Old February 12, 2018, 18:34   #26
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One of the reasons Lawful Money is desired at least in the circles I travel in is that FRNS have debt associated with them hence the term debt currency comes to mind, but not so with money that was in circulation in the early to mid 1960's and those FRN'S that were converted into United States notes (red seal notes) aka lawful money currency.
...
Banks IMnsHO are legal film flam artists, crooks, scammers!!!
1. True but beside the point. What difference does a debt make when at the end of the day it is an artifact of fiction and perhaps less real than one of Arthur C. Clark's science fiction books?

2. Yes, and they engage FedGov as an enforcement arm which makes them the same thing.
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Old February 12, 2018, 18:48   #27
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I know of no law or policy as of 1938 that is all there is, but that's a topic for another day.

That makes one use the FRN to pay any debt, one can use anything that both parties to a contract deem appropriate.

Hale V Hinkle (1906).



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1. True but beside the point. What difference does a debt make when at the end of the day it is an artifact of fiction and perhaps less real than one of Arthur C. Clark's science fiction books?

2. Yes, and they engage FedGov as an enforcement arm which makes them the same thing.
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Old February 12, 2018, 19:09   #28
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I know of no law or policy as of 1938 that is all there is, but that's a topic for another day.

That makes one use the FRN to pay any debt, one can use anything that both parties to a contract deem appropriate.

Hale V Hinkle (1906).
Without reading the caselaw I'm pretty sure the assertion is that FRNs can be used to settle any debt. It does not follow that they must be.

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Old February 12, 2018, 19:19   #29
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Once lawful money was taken out of circulation June 1933 just 3 years after the bankruptcy of 1930 there was no money to pay a debt with so debt could only be discharged.

And that means the debt is still there but you were taken off the hook so to speak and that's where the treasury and the strawman (legal fiction came to be involved from that point on.

Google these terms if you desire to know more, I'm about to sit down to dinner.


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Without reading the caselaw I'm pretty sure the assertion is that FRNs can be used to settle any debt. It does not follow that they must be.

b.
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Old February 12, 2018, 19:30   #30
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Once lawful money was taken out of circulation June 1933 just 3 years after the bankruptcy of 1930 there was no money to pay a debt with so debt could only be discharged.

And that means the debt is still there but you were taken off the hook so to speak and that's where the treasury and the strawman (legal fiction came to be involved from that point on.

Google these terms if you desire to know more, I'm about to sit down to dinner.
Yes, I get it. The point is that the whole thing is a game, and when you burn out all the fluff it's a pretty simple game too.

Surely you don't think that it's possible to pay off a liability incurred by borrowing money when the very act of creating the money in the first place always and by design creates more debt than money, right? It is demonstrably not possible, it therefore follows that the debt is not expected to be paid back. And given that it follows that neither you, I nor anyone else is 'on the hook' for it at least as that phrase is commonly understood. And so this begs the question, what IS the debt for then?

The answer to that is to convince you, me and the rest of the marks that the money created thusly is actually of value. Truthfully the debt has no real purpose other than to exert a measure of control and to make their 'money' look real. Paying it back would obviate the very thing it exists to do where it even possible to do so which it clearly is not.

People want to think their money has value, to think otherwise makes 'em uncomfortable. And to be honest it's not an easy concept to get one's head around. And at the end of the day most folks are going to go with their comfort level in terms of what they believe about money, what the debt really does is help 'em get there.
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Old February 12, 2018, 20:09   #31
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Looks like section 152 was repealed in 1974. So no longer a law/statute.

Why do you want to add common cents to the discussion?? Is it really relevant??
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Old February 12, 2018, 21:15   #32
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I'd rather be paid in gold and silver coin than with paper cellulose bills that vary in value,based on how many zeroes some ding-dong printed upon them.
I always thought how retarded bank robbers were for going thru all the trouble and risk to steal what they could just as easily acquire at the local newspaper as scrap. Cellulose. You know they blow bags of that stuff in attics around here?
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Old February 12, 2018, 22:32   #33
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Many. But please consider my request withdrawn. And please know I appreciate your openness to delve into the fine print. It is appreciated.

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What question do you have ?

Not all things are easily explained.

Ask your question and I'll do my best to answer it if I can.
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Old February 13, 2018, 19:49   #34
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I've noticed that as I get further and further into metal detecting,nobody ever asks how much or even if I find paper currency. And it is actually common for people like me to find paper currency from time to time.
I also wish they make our coins out of better metals. The zinc pennies are absolute crap. A few years underground and they are un-useable. Older pennies are cool.
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Old February 13, 2018, 20:08   #35
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If you dig up any red or blue, Yellow seal notes I would go for those


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I've noticed that as I get further and further into metal detecting,nobody ever asks how much or even if I find paper currency. And it is actually common for people like me to find paper currency from time to time.
I also wish they make our coins out of better metals. The zinc pennies are absolute crap. A few years underground and they are un-useable. Older pennies are cool.
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Old February 15, 2018, 20:18   #36
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Hey,I'm happy just finding anything pre-64.
I like Canadian coins,too. High nickel content,so it sticks to magnets.
At some point,I don't know when,but the monetary system has to break. You can't make "money" forever,out of shit,or like digital,out of nothing at all,and expect it to retain "value". At some point,people discover they have worked for nothing.
"Crazy Seeker" on youtube....
Father/son in Ukraine...they find all sorts of cool old soviet and imperial coins,and all sorts of other things. those old soviet coins actually hold up pretty good in the soil. Lot better than our zinc slugs and clad crap.
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