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Old December 12, 2018, 17:01   #1
2bit
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Winchester 1892 FAL Marked?

Hello to all,

This is my first post on this forum and I will say thanks to any and all help that may come my way as a result.

I began a research survey approximately 7 years covering the production span of the lever action Winchester Model 1892 rifles. To date I have cataloged just over 12,200 individual rifles of all configurations and conditions. It has been a wonderful effort and has put me in touch with owners of these rifles from all over the world. Eventually I will be writing and producing a reference book fro mall of the data collected.

In this effort I have come across a small number of saddle ring carbines, all chambered in 44 WCF with full length magazines. What is of interest is that all of these rifles have been totally refinished and re-blued and have a distinct stamp applied to the same position on the left side of the receiver. Through another site where I am active the mark was identified as being of Argentine origin. Seeing as I know less than nothing of the Argentine arms history I am looking for some input. The stamp has been described as a "pine tree" and I have heard some amazing guesses as to its origin.

Additionally a good portion of these rifle were apparently imported back into the United States by the Century Importers Co. out of St Albans, Vermont and they marked the lower tang with their identifying stamp. If anyone knows any information as to when this may have happened I would be interested.

Thanks again for any assistance. And if you have any Winchester questions I am more than happy to help. My email address is 2bitrifles@gmail.com
Michael
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Old December 12, 2018, 17:49   #2
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el tigre

Do a search for Tiger rifle or El Tigre Rifle. I remember Dixie gun works selling some that came from Mexico. This was 30 plus years ago. They were originally made in Spain if I recall.

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Old December 13, 2018, 19:00   #3
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You have nicely segued into the FAL Files, you may be OK. How about a full length picture of your lever gun?
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Old December 13, 2018, 19:30   #4
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What are the roll markings on the top of the Barrel? Upper Stock Tang?

My 1888 mfg'd 1892 in 44 WCF (44-40) only has markings on Upper Barrel and upper stock tang plus s/n on lower part of the receiver at mag tube.

That pine tree mark reminds me of stuff that I have seen out of China in the past. I may need to go back into some old weapons/arsenal markings manuals to see if they are similar. That rear sight looks really off. Flip down sight?

May very well be Argentinean, but for some reason pine tree brings Chinese to mind.

But may be the Alzheimer's kicking in.

Last edited by Beerwulfe; December 13, 2018 at 19:43.
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Old December 13, 2018, 19:49   #5
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The pine tree is the memorial to the state of Argentina. I forgot the proper name, itís in THE FN FAL PRIMER if anyone wants to look.
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Old December 13, 2018, 19:55   #6
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IIRC, the '92 was used in several countries as a prison guard weapon for the guards on the wall. Maybe?
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Old December 14, 2018, 11:51   #7
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Hello 2bit,

This is the history, in Argentina existed a law enforcement branch called "Policia Ferroviaria" - Railway Police, wich were issued with Winchesters 92 in 44-40 caliber. In 1950 the 44-40 ctge. was not so common, and they decided to send the rifles to the "Domingo Matheu" Military Factory to modify them, rechambering to .45 ACP ctg., the .45 ACP was manufactured in Argentina, so there are not logistical problem. The famous "Pine Tree" is an inspection mark of the FMAP "Domingo Matheu". As you can imagine, such modification was a total non sense, because the accuracy of the rifles shooting the .45 ACP was poor. If you rifle is still chambered in 44-40, the FMAP "DM" only refurbished them, maybe before they decided to change the original caliber. Check if the chamber was not modified.
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Old December 14, 2018, 11:58   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abominog View Post
The pine tree is the memorial to the state of Argentina. I forgot the proper name, itís in THE FN FAL PRIMER if anyone wants to look.
The "Pine Tree" is purely an inspection mark of the "Domigo Matheu" Military Factory, Rosario-Santa Fe Province-Argentina, nothing related to memorials or cattle marks or else. The other mark often found in the barrels, receivers or bolt carriers, is another inspection mark, wich resembles our national flag monument wich is located also in the City of Rosario - Santa Fe Province - Argentina, and as Abominog correctly mention, is displayed in the excellent book THE FN FAL PRIMER
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Old December 15, 2018, 00:55   #9
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Seeing this post triggered my memory on and old article from Shooting Times titled, "Classic Winchester SBR South of the Border" (Rodriguez, 2011). I don't have a link but a Google search will bring up this old article. Great little history on these fine carbines.
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Old December 16, 2018, 05:49   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSL View Post
Hello 2bit,

This is the history, in Argentina existed a law enforcement branch called "Policia Ferroviaria" - Railway Police, wich were issued with Winchesters 92 in 44-40 caliber. In 1950 the 44-40 ctge. was not so common, and they decided to send the rifles to the "Domingo Matheu" Military Factory to modify them, rechambering to .45 ACP ctg., the .45 ACP was manufactured in Argentina, so there are not logistical problem. The famous "Pine Tree" is an inspection mark of the FMAP "Domingo Matheu". As you can imagine, such modification was a total non sense, because the accuracy of the rifles shooting the .45 ACP was poor. If you rifle is still chambered in 44-40, the FMAP "DM" only refurbished them, maybe before they decided to change the original caliber. Check if the chamber was not modified.

Here is a link to a GB action I was watching of the same type
1892 Winchester 44-40 converted to .45ACP in Argentina with great
photos
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/790602779
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Old December 16, 2018, 09:00   #11
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Even with the barrel extension it's good to see this old girl still holds a decent value.
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Old December 16, 2018, 09:00   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMFSL7.62DJK View Post
Here is a link to a GB action I was watching of the same type
1892 Winchester 44-40 converted to .45ACP in Argentina with great
photos
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/790602779
Whoa, check out the chop job on that barrel...no way that came from Winchester like that.



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Last edited by SPEEDGUNNER; December 16, 2018 at 09:34.
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Old March 09, 2019, 07:47   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSL View Post
Hello 2bit,

This is the history, in Argentina existed a law enforcement branch called "Policia Ferroviaria" - Railway Police, wich were issued with Winchesters 92 in 44-40 caliber. In 1950 the 44-40 ctge. was not so common, and they decided to send the rifles to the "Domingo Matheu" Military Factory to modify them, rechambering to .45 ACP ctg., the .45 ACP was manufactured in Argentina, so there are not logistical problem. The famous "Pine Tree" is an inspection mark of the FMAP "Domingo Matheu". As you can imagine, such modification was a total non sense, because the accuracy of the rifles shooting the .45 ACP was poor. If you rifle is still chambered in 44-40, the FMAP "DM" only refurbished them, maybe before they decided to change the original caliber. Check if the chamber was not modified.
Hello FSL,

Sorry for my long absence after posting my original question on this site. As usual, life got REAL busy and I sort of forgot about it. I have found a few more Model 1892 rifles marked in the same way and that brought me back here.

Thanks you for your informed and accurate answer. I have heard a lot of "looks like China", must be "Mexican police" and other such guesses in the past several years since I found the first marked rifle. I am going to eventually be writing a reference book about all of the Model 1892 production and want to include a chapter on Unique foreign marked guns of which these will be part of that chapter. Therefore, accurate information is very important to me.

To date I have found 26 Model 1892's with this mark on them 23 of these were manufactured between 1917 and 1919 and they are all identical 44 WCF chambered carbines. None of these have been re-chambered to 45 ACP. Do you think that there is any way to historically track when the purchase of these rifles was made by the railway police, when they were refurbished at the Domingo Matheu factory or when they may have been purchased by Century Arms to then be re-imported back to the U.S.? Some of these rifles have been located in France, Germany, and Belgium.

Thanks again so much for your informed help. If you know of any other Model 1892 rifles, similarly marked or not I would love to add them into my data base in support of my research. I am happy to answer any questions and help in any way.

Sincerely,
Michael
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Old March 09, 2019, 08:12   #14
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Originally Posted by SPEEDGUNNER View Post
You have nicely segued into the FAL Files, you may be OK. How about a full length picture of your lever gun?
Speedgunner,

Here are a few images of some of these marked rifles.

Michael
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Old March 09, 2019, 09:04   #15
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isn't that a German antler mark the Proof mark from "Ulm" ?
and the Eagle over what might me a "v" the forced proof mark?







.
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Old March 09, 2019, 10:39   #16
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isn't that a German antler mark the Proof mark from "Ulm" ?
and the Eagle over what might me a "v" the forced proof mark?
.
Yes sir. You are correct. I am not certain why the Eagle stamp is over stamped. As I mentioned I have found 4 of these rifles in France, 3 in Germany and 1 in Belgium. Below is one of two octagon, 20 inch short barrel rifles I have also found and it has typical German proofs. It is my understanding that the "672" implies the gun was proofed during June of 1972. Still looking for verification of that.

Michael
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Old March 09, 2019, 10:52   #17
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This rifle is the same as all the other carbines but it is the only one with the additional "Policia PB Aires" stamp on the left side of the barrel.

Michael
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old March 11, 2019, 12:25   #18
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Wow, Michael. You have really dug some neat examples of these up. Your tenacity in your research on them is commendable. Please keep us informed when your book comes out. I'll gladly buy one.

I'm a member of the other forum to which Michael refers. I've owned two of these over the years and have seen a third one at a show that I didn't buy. When they first came to light, it was anyone's guess what they were. At least we have it narrowed down to Argentina, now.
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Old March 17, 2019, 06:01   #19
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Good morning,

The Cabela's store in Ottowana, MN just sold a Winchester 1892 SRC with SN 862921 which has the "pine tree" stamp on the receiver. Since the guys in the Gun Library there NEVER answer the phone or return messages or emails I did not get to talk to anyone until the rifle was already sold and boxed. On the one in a million chance that anyone sees this rifle I would LOVE to know if the lower tang of the receiver is stamped with an importers name.

thanks,
Michael
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Old March 17, 2019, 14:06   #20
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Many of these rifles were reimported back to the US from European collections by SIMPSON LTD out of Galesburg IL
They use a very small import mark
They have a great website
Hope this helps, DJK
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Old March 19, 2019, 09:25   #21
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Many of these rifles were reimported back to the US from European collections by SIMPSON LTD out of Galesburg IL
They use a very small import mark
They have a great website
Hope this helps, DJK
I actually used Simpson Ltd. to import a Model 1892 which I purchased out of France a few years ago. I will go and look again but it is not marked by them. Could you please post an example of their mark?

Thanks
Michael
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