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Old February 28, 2012, 13:31   #51
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Originally Posted by nfafan View Post
Is there a FAQ on ID'ing an SA FAL, Rhodie FAL?
A Rhodie FAL can be just about any FAL that was ever created..
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Old February 28, 2012, 13:32   #52
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Is there a FAQ on ID'ing an SA FAL, Rhodie FAL?
Ignore my earlier comment, too.
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Old February 28, 2012, 14:24   #53
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Part of the problem was that I was trying to look at the pictures BC posted on the tiny screen of my phone. Now that I can pull the photo up on a larger screen I can see it has the grenade front sight and brown paint used an some R1s
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Old March 03, 2012, 03:46   #54
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AZ Deuce Rhodies

AZ Deuce asked me to post pictures of the Rhodies he built with Coonan Type III receivers modified with R1 lightening cuts. He promised to send me details later which I post here as an update




He has built a couple of good looking rifles!
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Old March 03, 2012, 19:50   #55
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Originally Posted by def90 View Post
A Rhodie FAL can be just about any FAL that was ever created..
Can I assume then that Rhodesia had no FAL mfg capability of their own? And so were relying on whatever FALs could be scrounged, or later brought in directly from South Africa - their R1 rifles.(?)

And, forgeting South American FALs parts kits - folks could baby-scat up a StG58 parts kit, G1 kit, L1 kit - and pawn it off to the unsuspecting as a Bush War Rhodie parts kit?

I guess what I am looking for is some means of reasonable identification of a Rhodie parts kit. For example; unless otherwise sanitized; a later "Rhodie" would have a S/N prefix of R1 or RA on the parts?
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Old March 03, 2012, 22:53   #56
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Usually there will be a Rhodesian applied marking on the lower receivers right side starting with a RA then ususally a 4 digit number maybe more, it should look like RAXXXX. That, and any remenant of the Rhodie "baby poop" paint are about the only clues to whether or not they are Rhodesian, as they used FALs from where ever they could scrounge them after the UN Embargo. But probably 99% of the SA manufactured parts came through Rhodesia, so you can almost guarentee a build on SA parts to be of Rhodesian hertage at some point.

Also, most SA lowers will look like they are cut for a Type II receiver with it's more radiused cut, but they are in fact built for the Type 1.5 receiver as shown on some of the previous posts, and my Rhodesian build shown above. A Type II will work. it's just not correct for a Rhodie contracted SA built FN, or a factory original R1, but after a rebuild or two, all bets are off on how they looked after that, so a Type II could be acceptable. There are pictures of Type IIs in use.
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Old March 25, 2012, 10:35   #57
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Originally Posted by nfafan View Post
Can I assume then that Rhodesia had no FAL mfg capability of their own? And so were relying on whatever FALs could be scrounged, or later brought in directly from South Africa - their R1 rifles.(?)
That's correct. As a Commonwealth colony their primary arm was the L1A1 (both British and Australian); after UDI the British cut them off entirely, so around 1968 they switched over to the rifle of their primary backer--the R1. As time and the Bush War went on the Rhodesians were scrounging up anything FAL they could get their hands on.

Quote:
And, forgeting South American FALs parts kits - folks could baby-scat up a StG58 parts kit, G1 kit, L1 kit - and pawn it off to the unsuspecting as a Bush War Rhodie parts kit?
Well, something like that--with fresh paint--would set off my alarm bells as surely as somebody selling a pristine M1903 Springfield with the claim that it was a Guadalcanal bring-back. Surviving pristine, in THAT environment--I don't think so!

Something that saw heavy service in the Bush War, and then years of abuse and neglect by Mugabe's forces, wouldn't have any kind of "new" look to it. Somebody could artificially put wear and age on a bogus parts kit, sure...but would that be worth all the bother? Honestly, I doubt it.

Quote:
I guess what I am looking for is some means of reasonable identification of a Rhodie parts kit. For example; unless otherwise sanitized; a later "Rhodie" would have a S/N prefix of R1 or RA on the parts?
Look for the engraved RA number (again, it shouldn't look like it was engraved yesterday) and for M-within-U marked (South African) parts. (The stock on my R1 kit is M-U marked as plain as day; I guess after a while the cat was out of the bag and nobody cared about "sanitizing" parts anymore.)
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Old March 25, 2012, 12:32   #58
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This pic has me intrigued...is the grenade sight "backwards", or is that how it was to be used?
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Old March 25, 2012, 12:48   #59
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It's in position for use.
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Old March 25, 2012, 13:04   #60
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Okay, thanks!
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Old March 25, 2012, 16:41   #61
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Saw a 4 digit, BGS/G1 Type 1 receiver the other day with cut carry handle and traces of baby poop....

Same shop had a receiver that had the crest scrubbed as well as the SN and had a RA SN penciled on...

Will attempt to take pictures of them in the shop
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Old March 25, 2012, 21:54   #62
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Thanks Enbloc and AZ Deuce for the Rhodie info!
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Old March 25, 2012, 23:16   #63
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My personal gang of SA's/Rhodies....

First was the R1 in "Service Brown"....which reminds me I need more pics of her in the sun! Next range outing she will get her turn for sure!!




Next was the RHODIE dressed in her POOP!



And finally the R1 that is in her final stages, only awaiting a new shiny finish!!

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Old March 26, 2012, 11:55   #64
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Originally Posted by LaConservationist View Post
My personal gang of SA's/Rhodies....

First was the R1 in "Service Brown"....which reminds me I need more pics of her in the sun! Next range outing she will get her turn for sure!!




Next was the RHODIE dressed in her POOP!



And finally the R1 that is in her final stages, only awaiting a new shiny finish!!

I think I like the last one best, whose stock is that? It looks like walnut? The stock on my Rhodie/SA R1 is definately something else.
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Old March 26, 2012, 13:01   #65
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I apologize, I never posted up the information on the two Rhodie builds shown in post # 54, so here goes a quick summary.

Both rifles started out with Coonan Type III receivers with custom serial numbers to match my Rhodie marked, but SA manufactured lowers.

The rifle is supposed to be a clone of the Rhodesian contract rifle built for them by South Africa, before the embargo, they look identical to the SA R1 in every aspect, EXCEPT they were pretty much devoid of any markings except serial numbers.

So while they look identical to an R1, and were built in the same factory as the SA R1, they are NOT stamped/engraved as R1s, so they are NOT R1s, just "FNs" to the Rhodesians. Confused yet?

There were many actual SA R1s that made it to Rhodesia pre & post embargo, but the Rhodesians actually had thir own built under a contract with SA......until the embargo took place.

I decided to build one of these Rhodesian contract rifles, for the simple reason they were devoid of markings, and I didn't have the money to spend on engraving!

The second rifle is my 50.63 Congo Para, I had planned on making a 50.63 anyway, as I gave my first one to my son. It was a last minute decision to add a Rhodie marked lower, but I figured why not?

There is no proof to date (03-26-12) that the Rhoesians ever had 50.63s, but the possibility that they captured one from a Terr who wasn't "needing" it any more, and put it into service against it's previous owners is a possiblity. So while it's more fantasy than reality, I like it and it's a good shooter with it's DSA Cryno'd barrel.

I have a friend, Brian, who did the machining for me and turned the Coonan Type IIIs into a Type 1.5 in the rifle's case, and a Type II for the Para. We got the Type 1.5 cuts right on the rear of the receiver, but they're hard to see even if you blow up the pictures. But I did screw up, and get the mill cut over the magwell wrong.

I had Brian mill in the standard FN type mill cut over the magwell, it wasn't until it was done, about two weeks later I came across the pictures on this site that showed the SA produced type 1.5 recever had an entirely different shaped mill cut over the magwell.

Oh well......too late now! However if Coonan does make a Type 1.5, and it's 100% correct, I guess I'll just have to do another! Darn!
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Old March 26, 2012, 13:33   #66
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There is no proof to date (03-26-12) that the Rhoesians ever had 50.63s, but the possibility that they captured one from a Terr who wasn't "needing" it any more, and put it into service against it's previous owners is a possiblity. So while it's more fantasy than reality, I like it and it's a good shooter with it's DSA Cryno'd barrel.
Are you sure about that? there are all kinds of pics of Rhodie paras out there..
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Old March 26, 2012, 14:38   #67
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Are you sure about that? there are all kinds of pics of Rhodie paras out there..
I remember reading a citation of two Para's being captured in a cross-border raid into Mozambique.
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Old March 26, 2012, 14:47   #68
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I have a friend, Brian, who did the machining for me and turned the Coonan Type IIIs into a Type 1.5 in the rifle's case, and a Type II for the Para. We got the Type 1.5 cuts right on the rear of the receiver, but they're hard to see even if you blow up the pictures. But I did screw up, and get the mill cut over the magwell wrong.

I had Brian mill in the standard FN type mill cut over the magwell, it wasn't until it was done, about two weeks later I came across the pictures on this site that showed the SA produced type 1.5 recever had an entirely different shaped mill cut over the magwell.

Oh well......too late now! However if Coonan does make a Type 1.5, and it's 100% correct, I guess I'll just have to do another! Darn!
Do you think it would be possible to make the correct R1 style magwell cut on a Coonan Type III?

I was discussing this possibility with a builder just yesterday. He was concerned that the angle of the bottom and front edges of the magwell were too steep on the Coonan Type III receiver to do it properly (this was from looking at the picture on the Coonan website).
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Old March 26, 2012, 19:34   #69
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Updated pics of a couple R1's.....wood build was just completed last night scheduled to head to refinishing Friday!





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Old March 26, 2012, 20:51   #70
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Carry handle......ok what was the correct purse handle for the R1's? We know the Rhodies snapped theirs off, but have any of you purist researched the correct carry handle?

THANKS!!!
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Old March 26, 2012, 21:47   #71
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Carry handle......ok what was the correct purse handle for the R1's? We know the Rhodies snapped theirs off, but have any of you purist researched the correct carry handle?
Based on the rifles I've seen in RSA (didn't see many R1s...), as well as photos of Recce troops, R1s in SA service normally had the carry handle intact, and they were basically the same kind I see on your brown rifle. I'll look around for a close up photo.
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Old March 27, 2012, 00:37   #72
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Yes, there are several pictures of Rhodie Paras, but I have NOT SEEN a 50.63, just 50.64s.
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Old March 27, 2012, 13:07   #73
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Did Entreprise Arms ever make a receiver with the triangular magwell cut found on South African or Rhodie FALs? I ask because I saw this one for sale on GB:





The seller states that it's an Entreprise Type 3, but it's obviously a Type 1 (or possibly Type 1.5). It also appears to have a stamped ZA number above the magwell. I couldn't actually find any Entreprise stamp on it even when the photo was blown up so ??

So did E-prise actually make these? Custom order maybe??


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Old March 27, 2012, 13:20   #74
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So did E-prise actually make these? Custom order maybe??


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Didn't they make some of these along with the BGS receivers during the group buy fiasco? I am pretty sure a few people requested SA uppers.
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Old March 27, 2012, 19:20   #75
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Didn't they make some of these along with the BGS receivers during the group buy fiasco? I am pretty sure a few people requested SA uppers.
I think I recall that Def. I guess I didn't think anybody actually received one though. I also wasn't aware that they made the proper magwell cut on these.

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Old March 30, 2012, 10:05   #76
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HR, Def-

I ordered one of those Entreprise SA marked receivers. Took forever but I did receive it eventually. Decent quality - no welding. Maybe one or two porosity pin holes. It is marked with the UM which has a coolness factor for a few of us, other than that nothing special. The marking is all I was really after.

To show my ignorance - What the deal with the triangular magwell cut ? Are SA FALS different from their Belgian cousins ?

I'll check my Entreprise and see what it looks like but I doubt it is different from the BGS marked Type 1s.
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Old March 31, 2012, 11:14   #77
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Did anyone notice the Commonwealth pattern rear sights on this one.http://i43.tinypic.com/5d2amb.jpg
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Old April 01, 2012, 10:11   #78
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HR, Def-

I ordered one of those Entreprise SA marked receivers. Took forever but I did receive it eventually. Decent quality - no welding. Maybe one or two porosity pin holes. It is marked with the UM which has a coolness factor for a few of us, other than that nothing special. The marking is all I was really after.

To show my ignorance - What the deal with the triangular magwell cut ? Are SA FALS different from their Belgian cousins ?

I'll check my Entreprise and see what it looks like but I doubt it is different from the BGS marked Type 1s.
Matt,

There a few differences that I know of. I posted this in LaC's Coonan Type 1.5 R1 Style Receiver thread:

DSCF0140b.JPG

photob.JPG

Photo 1 shows an R1 receiver illustrating the Type 1.5 machine cuts on the left side. Note the R1-7.62MM / M in U / serial #.

Photo 2 shows a sanitized, RA-marked R1 receiver illustrating the Type 1.5 machine cuts on the right side.


There may be other differences that I am not aware of.


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Old April 09, 2012, 22:56   #79
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FN vs SA lowers?

How does one tell an FN-made R1 lower from a South African-produced lower? Serial number range?

Also, when did the change from vertical to horizontal takedown levers occur?
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Old April 10, 2012, 01:29   #80
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R1 Serial Numbers and Take-down Levers

1) R1 serial numbers began at 200001 and the highest I can recall was in the 365000 range.

2) As far as we know ALL R1s were produced with the horizontal levers - as evidenced by the serial number being just below the rear sight only. All SA Belgian contract rifles were supplied with vertical levers but the vast majority had their levers swapped out with horizontal ones in the late sixties - as evidenced by the presence of serial numbers below the rear sight (hand stamped) and also the original under the lever arm (factory stamped).
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Old April 10, 2012, 09:06   #81
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1) R1 serial numbers began at 200001 and the highest I can recall was in the 365000 range.

2) As far as we know ALL R1s were produced with the horizontal levers - as evidenced by the serial number being just below the rear sight only. All SA Belgian contract rifles were supplied with vertical levers but the vast majority had their levers swapped out with horizontal ones in the late sixties - as evidenced by the presence of serial numbers below the rear sight (hand stamped) and also the original under the lever arm (factory stamped).
Okay, am I safe in thinking that an SA Belgian contract rifle with an electropencilled RA number would likely have been one of the "sanitized" rifles with all of the SA-related markings ground off and the receiver crest drilled out, and would have originally been supplied with a wooden buttstock? (Did the wooden-stocked rifles get the long plastic buttstocks over time?)

This information's greatly appreciated...I'm trying to determine which way I need to go on a project!
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Old April 11, 2012, 23:06   #82
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Serial numbers and takedown levers

And now it's time to stump the experts!
Quote:
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As far as we know ALL R1s were produced with the horizontal levers - as evidenced by the serial number being just below the rear sight only. All SA Belgian contract rifles were supplied with vertical levers but the vast majority had their levers swapped out with horizontal ones in the late sixties - as evidenced by the presence of serial numbers below the rear sight (hand stamped) and also the original under the lever arm (factory stamped).
But pay close attention to this photo from post #39 of this thread:


Notice that this South African produced R1 has a vertical lever and serial #271879 factory stamped in the lower position (same font as matching upper). Plus the serial # appears to be hand stamped (different font & spacing) below the rear sight partially obscured by the lever.
This would seem to contradict Mr. Wells hypothesis.
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Old April 12, 2012, 18:43   #83
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And now it's time to stump the experts!

But pay close attention to this photo from post #39 of this thread:


Notice that this South African produced R1 has a vertical lever and serial #271879 factory stamped in the lower position (same font as matching upper). Plus the serial # appears to be hand stamped (different font & spacing) below the rear sight partially obscured by the lever.
This would seem to contradict Mr. Wells hypothesis.
Looks to me like someone just changed the breakdown lever BACK to the Vertical from the Horizontal, after being converted from the vertical! SIMPLE

OH and HELL NO, I am NOT even close to claiming to be an expert!!!
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Old April 12, 2012, 22:33   #84
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Looks to me like someone just changed the breakdown lever BACK to the Vertical from the Horizontal, after being converted from the vertical!
Ahhh ... well yeah, that's kind of my point.
This SA R1 appears to have left the factory with a vertical takedown lever and the serial # stamped in the lower position. (But Mr. Wells said "As far as we know ALL R1s were produced with the horizontal levers.") The serial # was later hand stamped under the rear sight, so the lever could be converted to the horizontal type. Then finally a vertical lever was re-installed.

Much ado about nothing, I suppose.
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Old April 13, 2012, 21:03   #85
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A small treasure I dug out of the dungeon today.......



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Old April 15, 2012, 04:22   #86
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I agree. Something's not right here! Maybe there were exceptions?
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Old April 15, 2012, 04:28   #87
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I'm sure someone has probably already posted images of the first production R1, Serial # 200,001, that is held at Saxonwold Military museum in Johannesburg? Apologies for the poor quality images, these were taken with a cell phone camera.

According to the information board, this was the first R1 off the production line, presented in 1964 by the Minister for Defence to the then State President Verwoerd. Note the vertical lever which does seem to suggest that this was the specification adopted on the early types?



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Old April 16, 2012, 13:04   #88
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I'm sure someone has probably already posted images of the first production R1, Serial # 200,001, that is held at Saxonwold Military museum in Johannesburg? Apologies for the poor quality images, these were taken with a cell phone camera.

According to the information board, this was the first R1 off the production line, presented in 1964 by the Minister for Defence to the then State President Verwoerd. Note the vertical lever which does seem to suggest that this was the specification adopted on the early types?



Close resemblence......even more so since I have swapped the hand guards on these two.......VERY HAPPY, I will be swapping the receiver when my new Coonan R1 receiver and then she will be completed!



LaC
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Old April 17, 2012, 11:19   #89
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I took a look in the FAL bible when this question came up...the FN-contract rifle naturally shows a vertical takedown lever, but so does the ARMSCOR-produced rifle (which doesn't appear to be the first production rifle that went to the museum).
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Old April 17, 2012, 12:19   #90
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Wasn't there issues with the vertical takedown lever releasing when firing grenades from these rifles, hince them switching to the horizontal break down levers?
Did I read this or DREAM it?

LaC
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Old April 17, 2012, 12:36   #91
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Wasn't there issues with the vertical takedown lever releasing when firing grenades from these rifles, hince them switching to the horizontal break down levers?
Did I read this or DREAM it?

LaC
That does ring a bell.
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Old April 24, 2012, 22:24   #92
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Somewhere around 300k is when it looks like SA changed to the horizontal lever.
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Old April 26, 2012, 19:21   #93
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Some quick questions as I'm assembling parts for a build:

1.) What is the proper design of carry handle for an R1? Was there any difference between SADF rifles and rifles that went to Rhodesia?

2.) What is the proper finish for a new R1? Phosphate/parkerizing, or black paint?

3.) Which SA-built R1s had wood stocks? I expect only early production rifles did, but would it have been a substantial number?
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Old April 26, 2012, 19:47   #94
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[QUOTE=enbloc8;3336920]Some quick questions as I'm assembling parts for a build:


Quote:
Originally Posted by enbloc8 View Post
1.) What is the proper design of carry handle for an R1? Was there any difference between SADF rifles and rifles that went to Rhodesia?]
Long Belgian/Imbel type, I'm sure you've heard most were removed but there are plenty of photo's of rhodesian FALs with carry handles.

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Originally Posted by enbloc8 View Post
2.) What is the proper finish for a new R1? Phosphate/parkerizing, or black paint?]
Black paint over parkerizing.

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Originally Posted by enbloc8 View Post
3.) Which SA-built R1s had wood stocks? I expect only early production rifles did, but would it have been a substantial number? ]
Only the first one built supposedly. The Belgian built SA contract rifles were initially all wood butt stocked but plastic came with the second contract.
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Old June 04, 2012, 20:05   #95
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Nothing can make an SLR look better. Leave it to the British to take an elegant rifle like an F A L and make it ugly.
Funny, I feel the same way about the Israeli FAL. One ugly mofo...
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Old June 22, 2012, 23:14   #96
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Funny, I feel the same way about the Israeli FAL. One ugly mofo...

Hey, now.....


Don't be talkin' about the "Hebrew Hammer" that way.


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Old September 02, 2012, 23:30   #97
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Ok, heres my contribution to this thread.



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Old September 17, 2012, 16:36   #98
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I'm building based off a vert take down lever lower with drilled out UM. What type of sling would something like this have had? Did this have a type 1.5 upper originally?
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Old September 17, 2012, 17:15   #99
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I'm building based off a vert take down lever lower with drilled out UM. What type of sling would something like this have had? Did this have a type 1.5 upper originally?
Look at the notches in the recoil plate. If they're more squared or sharp-cornered, it was a Type 1. If they have more of a radius and the S/N is above 200,000, it would have been a Type 1.5.
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Old September 21, 2012, 09:58   #100
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A small treasure I dug out of the dungeon today.......



LaC
I just noticed something about this lower that I haven't noticed/payed attention to in the past......
NOTE: Vertical take down lever
NO serial number below rear sight
drilled/scrubbed UM marking on lower left of lower....
225760 serial number
DAMN and this is the lower that I sold off and the buyer actually has a matching number Coonan R1 receiver for this.....Looks like a lot of history with this rifle thru its journey around the world......I may have to buy that kit and receiver back!!!!

LaC
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In MEMORY of Roger "DUNKRD" Dunkelbarger September 13, 1943 - May 09, 2010

"Any one who thinks he can be happy
and prosperous by letting
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better take a closer look at the American Indian."

- Henry Ford
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