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Old May 18, 2012, 21:51   #1
Thorack
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Why does Social Security Means Test scare Boomers!!

Ok,

If you don't need the money why take it? Is it greed, a sense of entitlment, or what? We scream about welfare queens taking money they don't need what about Social Security slicksters and greedy grannys taking money they don't need?

I know Medicare is the bigger issue but SS is the hot button. When ever you say means test and tell folks they don't need SS, they go bonkers. I don't remember what the cut off is though. If I remember SS was supposed to be for the last 7 years of life. What is current life expectancy?

I would like decent discourse on, why if you don't need SS are seniors so angry they can't take the money they don't need.

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Old May 18, 2012, 22:00   #2
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Give me back the money I put into the SS system and I won't take any more.

Quite frankly, I expected the system to be bankrupt before I started receiving checks a year ago at age 66. I still work and continue to pay in, so should I get the check each month???
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Old May 18, 2012, 22:02   #3
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I would say your question needs some clarification, in 9 years if they
don't raise the threshold I most likely won't be able to 'retire' in the
sense that I could quit work all together. It may be that until the house
is paid for that I'd still need some work and SS to keep my current
standard of living. On the other hand SS is NOT an unfunded liability
from the perspective that many millions of us have had 7% a week of
our checks taken from us and if there's any left and if I 'need' it I'll ask for it.

But a straight up answer is that they already means test you, you make too
much money and you don't get it, in that they tax it away.
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Old May 18, 2012, 22:06   #4
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Let me stop paying now and I'll never ask for a dime back!
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Old May 18, 2012, 22:22   #5
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Seaweed,

In my opinion you shouldn't be receiving a SS, you will probably go bonkers now just like my Mother when I told her the same thing. She makes good money and is also 66, but she says she will be damned if she isn't gonna get her money back even though she doesn't need it. I tell her its money she doesn't need, and it could help someone who needs it, like my aunt that only lives on SS after her stroke.

I don't understand it.

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Old May 18, 2012, 22:31   #6
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Thorack, what would you do if you paid on a house all your working life then someone told you you just gave all of those payments away and you don't get to move into the house you paid for. The deal with SOC SEC is you pay into it you get to draw on it. The question you should be asking is why there are so many who draw on the system that never paid a dime into it...

Don't beat the people up who are producers and contributors. Go after the deadbeats who think they are owed something they didn't earn.
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Old May 18, 2012, 23:22   #7
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If only those self indulgent seniors refused to accept their monthly SS checks, unless they absolutely needed it, everything would be OK. Let's means test who gets to keep their check (Steve Forbes could head the commission). Let's increase taxes on the wealthy and the remaining middle class and initiate a national sales tax that would allow the poor to pay their fair share too. Let's incourage the Treasury/Fed to print more money jacking up inflation, that's a tax nobody worrys about. All of this incoming revenue and the US government will finally be financially solvent. Wrong! The government never will have enough money to match it's outflow and browbeating old people into not taking their SS 'welfare' is not going to change anything.
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Old May 19, 2012, 00:00   #8
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Ok,

If you don't need the money why take it? Is it greed, a sense of entitlment, or what? We scream about welfare queens taking money they don't need what about Social Security slicksters and greedy grannys taking money they don't need?

I know Medicare is the bigger issue but SS is the hot button. When ever you say means test and tell folks they don't need SS, they go bonkers. I don't remember what the cut off is though. If I remember SS was supposed to be for the last 7 years of life. What is current life expectancy?

I would like decent discourse on, why if you don't need SS are seniors so angry they can't take the money they don't need.

Thorack
So if you loan money out you shouldn't be paid back because in the borrowers mind you don't need the money right? Your kind of thinking is in my opinion very lacking in common sense. If you allow government to walk away from a promiss then they will walk away from all of them.

It isn't about NEED, it's about what we earned and is owed to us. People pay into SS and all employers have to match what people pay in so over 30+ years that is a huge amount of money.

It seems to me you have leftist leanings that begrudge what is owed to people. It's owed to you too if you pay in but if you haven't then what do you care?
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Old May 19, 2012, 00:01   #9
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Don't forget that whatever you've paid into it, your employer has matched, or here lately, paid more. Normally, you pay 6.2% of your gross in SS tax up to $110,100 this year. Your employer matches the 6.2%. (This year your part is 4.2%. Employer still pays 6.2%). So 12.4% of whatever your gross is. Those of us who are self-employed get the double whammy, because we get to pay the extra 6.2% plus the double medicare (1.35%x2) on our self.

What would you do if you put 12.4% of your paycheck in the bank for 50 or so years and when it comes to retirement, the bank says "sorry, you have enough money, you can't have it"?

I've paid in way more than I'll ever be able to draw from SSI, and I still have 13 more years to work.

So people like you want to penalize someone who may have worked and saved and are prepared for retirement simply because you feel they don't "need" it. Sounds like one of Obama's socialist minions speaking.

Maybe you could get a job with Obamacare and tell us who "needs" what treatment.

If I was your mother and had a kid tell me that, I'd change my will and give everything to the dog pound before you got a dime.

And guess what, you don't have to draw SS. Lead by example.
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Old May 19, 2012, 00:06   #10
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Terminate SS.
Write it off as a another stupid idea of letting the govt manage something that is a PERSONAL responsibility.


Going to happen one way or another.
Probably the way of issuing checks that buy next to nothing.





................juanni
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Old May 19, 2012, 00:13   #11
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Seaweed,

In my opinion you shouldn't be receiving a SS, you will probably go bonkers now just like my Mother when I told her the same thing. She makes good money and is also 66, but she says she will be damned if she isn't gonna get her money back even though she doesn't need it. I tell her its money she doesn't need, and it could help someone who needs it, like my aunt that only lives on SS after her stroke.

I don't understand it.

Thorack
Who determins what "need" is, you? Government owes people their SS if they have paid in. If they decide to be deadbeats and not pay their debts then none of us should pay any taxes.

Get really tired of people saying what others need or don't need. If you owe me then pay me. Same mind frame will say "you don't need all them guns", "you don't need that fast car", "you don't need any full autos", what I don't need is for people telling me how to live my live and what they think I need.

Government should pay their fugging debts. They allready keep every dime paid by those who die early and they have money to waste every where we turn so they need to pay what they owe.
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Old May 19, 2012, 00:20   #12
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Terminate SS.
Write it off as a another stupid idea of letting the govt manage something that is a PERSONAL responsibility.


Going to happen one way or another.
Probably the way of issuing checks that buy next to nothing.





................juanni
Yep it was a bad idea by the progressive democrats but people have paid into it and derserve what money is owed to them. If they don't have the money to pay me then just give me my choice of military equipment to make us square on the deal
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Old May 19, 2012, 00:23   #13
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Yep it was a bad idea by the progressive democrats but people have paid into it and derserve what money is owed to them. If they don't have the money to pay me then just give me my choice of military equipment to make us square on the deal
Sounds good to me,,, we just piss it away or give it away to police depts anyway.




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Old May 19, 2012, 00:27   #14
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Well - at least you guys are talking about the real problems - kudos! Medicare is the elephant though gents - we can ADJUST SS - Medicare is terminal. Math is math. YOU CANNOT put $60k in over your working life and draw $200K+ in benefits - it does NOT pencil out.

Sorry Boomers - there WILL be death panels - you put $60K in - you get capped at $60K worth of treatment - gonna piss A LOT of leechfuks off - sorry - the $ simply is NOT there.

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Old May 19, 2012, 00:40   #15
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Well - at least you guys are talking about the real problems - kudos! Medicare is the elephant though gents - we can ADJUST SS - Medicare is terminal. Math is math. YOU CANNOT put $60k in over your working life and draw $200K+ in benefits - it does NOT pencil out.

Sorry Boomers - there WILL be death panels - you put $60K in - you get capped at $60K worth of treatment - gonna piss A LOT of leechfuks off - sorry - the $ simply is NOT there.
Ok Medicare is going under so just give me back all the money I did pay into it and I will buy insurance with that money. The deal was if I paid in then I got medicare, if government ain't going to give me medicare for the payment then give the money back. Isn't that the fair way???
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:37   #16
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Wasn't SS supposed to be a temporary gig?
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:43   #17
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The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
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Just some food for thought.
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Old May 19, 2012, 05:17   #18
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Well,

To all the bonkers boomers, I can't believe you are depending on SS as even my mother has said for the past 20 years SS was going to be broke. I'm not planning on receiving a dime in SS as its pretty foolish planning. I'm not a Socialist and I believe SS should be repealed, just like Obamacare. If SS was an investment it seems your generation did a pretty lousy job of insuring the money was managed well.

I guess they call unmonitored investments dumb money for a reason.

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Old May 19, 2012, 07:11   #19
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They are looking at military retirement and benefits too, so be ready.

I will have to work until I can't any more, then go out into my back yard and commit Harry Carry.

No U can't have my guns. U cut my sh-t and made me commit Harry Carry.
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Old May 19, 2012, 07:28   #20
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Notice how they never mention cutting or eliminating congressional pensions or health packages first?
Its the Titanic 2012,and we're the little immigrant kids in steerage..
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Old May 19, 2012, 07:32   #21
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As a side note,I'd be willing to take half of the dollars promised...as long as its paid in Silver Eagles...
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Old May 19, 2012, 07:45   #22
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I will have to work until I can't any more, then go out into my back yard and commit Harry Carry.
Mebs, sounds like we have the same retirement plan. Between inflation consuming meager investments and savings and knowing SS won't exist in fifteen years, this seems like the way to go.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:31   #23
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Guys, I hate to break it to you but SS and Medicare are TAXES, just like income taxes - the SC already has ruled on this - YES you were promised a benefit at retirement and yes you paid in and are owed your money back - however, you were lied to! the money was dumped into the general fund during the Johnson Admin to help pay for the Vietnam war and that has been the practice ever since - the money was spent - it's gone. Now, SS, as a pay-go system CAN be adjusted (age and means testing), but Medicare is fuked! there is NO WAY you can pay in 60k and use 200k worth of benefits later in life - mathematically impossible, sorry.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:38   #24
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Which boomers ?

I am classified as a baby boomer, and I will be eligible for benefits in 14 years !

I wrote off the probability of collecting 20 years ago.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:39   #25
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Correct - but the result is exactly the same.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:39   #26
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If I don't pay my debts then they come after what I have to get what I owe. If the government turns dead beat and doesn't pay what they owe then it is no longer a government. If they ain't going to pay up then we no longer have to pay in, it's that simple.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:42   #27
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You go first:-) that only works Jim if EVERYONE wakes up and stops paying at the same time - you go lone wolf you go to jail - btw - isn't it convenient that SS and Medicare are automatically deducted from w-2 workers paychecks - you couldn't opt out if you wanted to... quite the scam...
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:45   #28
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I don't care, I began collecting my SS at the start of the month. Incidently, it is my only source of income. Five years of unemployment wiped out what very little I had in IRAs after Merrill Lynch had already squandered most of it away. My IRA was losing $1300 a month for over two years when unemployment forced me to withdraw it to live on as a single parent. And, the amount I had was about half of what I earned and saved as result of a divorce.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:58   #29
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You go first:-) that only works Jim if EVERYONE wakes up and stops paying at the same time - you go lone wolf you go to jail - btw - isn't it convenient that SS and Medicare are automatically deducted from w-2 workers paychecks - you couldn't opt out if you wanted to... quite the scam...
It will cost them more to put me in jail than if they just pay up I go to jail and they pay for everything, even healthcare.
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:02   #30
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If I don't pay my debts then they come after what I have to get what I owe. If the government turns dead beat and doesn't pay what they owe then it is no longer a government. If they ain't going to pay up then we no longer have to pay in, it's that simple.
You have had that option all along, and you can do legally along with the 50% that already pay no income tax.

Simply be self employed, live small, make talking care of your health a priority and participate in the system as little as possible.

Beats working your ass off, in a job you hate, to buy all kinds of trinkets, destroying your health, and be forced every inch of the way to prop up a corrupt system that is going to screw you over.





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Old May 19, 2012, 11:05   #31
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It will cost them more to put me in jail than if they just pay up I go to jail and they pay for everything, even healthcare.
Chances of going to jail are very, very small.
Instead they will seize what they can.

Just don't have anything visible worth seizing.




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Old May 19, 2012, 11:13   #32
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Chances of going to jail are very, very small.
Instead they will seize what they can.

Just don't have anything visible worth seizing.




............juanni
If I choose the jail route it will be to get paid for what they owe me. They will pay even if I have to lay around in a jail cell to get it Really, I will have TV, cooks, laundry and a place to work out every day and it will cost them $40,000 plus per year. It would be cheaper to just pay me the SS but they will pay.
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:25   #33
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If I choose the jail route it will be to get paid for what they owe me. They will pay even if I have to lay around in a jail cell to get it Really, I will have TV, cooks, laundry and a place to work out every day and it will cost them $40,000 plus per year. It would be cheaper to just pay me the SS but they will pay.
I like the attitude!!

Complacency is why this country and our finances are such a mess.




.............juanni
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:51   #34
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Jim - if thats the plan at least add some irony to the equation - rob a bank, should be good for 20 years of state paid vacation. If you want the feds to pay rob them in multiple states (would require a bit of luck to pull off a twofer before apprehension).
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:52   #35
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IIRC it wasn't actually dumped into the general fund because that was illegal.
It was "borrowed" by various bureaucracies with no note or plan for repayment.
Wrong!

1937 two cases decided.

HELVERING, COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE, ET AL.
v.
DAVIS.
No. 910.
Supreme Court of United States.

"The first section of this title creates an account in the United States Treasury to be known as the "Old-Age 636*636 Reserve Account." § 201. No present appropriation, however, is made to that account.

The proceeds of both taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way."

CHAS. C. STEWARD MACH. CO. v. DAVIS, 301 U.S. 548 (1937)

301 U.S. 548

CHAS. C. STEWARD MACH. CO.
v.
DAVIS.
No. 837.

Argued April 8-9, 1937.

"The proceeds of the excise when collected are paid into the Treasury at Washington, and thereafter are subject to appropriation like public moneys generally. Cincinnati Soap Co. v. United States (May 3, 1937) 301 U.S. 308 , 57 S.Ct. 764, 81 L.Ed. --. No presumption can be indulged that they will be misapplied or wasted. 8 Even if they were collected in the hope or expectation that some other and collateral good would be furthered as an incident, that without more would not make the act invalid.

(a) The proceeds of the tax in controversy are not earmarked for a special group."


This Johnson administration crap that keeps coming up baffles me. The tax went into the general fund from the beginning.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:00   #36
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Jim - if thats the plan at least add some irony to the equation - rob a bank, should be good for 20 years of state paid vacation. If you want the feds to pay rob them in multiple states (would require a bit of luck to pull off a twofer before apprehension).
Deal is if they want to keep my money then why not make it cost them If things are done right just the trial alone will cost millions. Add to that I will need constant medical attention along with all the rest that goes with incarceration and sure enough they will pay more than just SS.

Been busting my ass most of my life and now they say they won't pay SS. Well that is fine but when you owe people money you never know how they will try to get paid back.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:01   #37
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It's ALWAYS been a tax - it was Johnson that changed way the money was treated - it allowed the fed gov to "borrow" from the segregated fund and replace the money with non negotiable bonds - IOUs - to be paid back with.... current taxes - which incidentally, only cover 60% of our current federal spending - we borrow the rest - but you already know all this.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:05   #38
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Well,

To all the bonkers boomers, I can't believe you are depending on SS as even my mother has said for the past 20 years SS was going to be broke. I'm not planning on receiving a dime in SS as its pretty foolish planning. I'm not a Socialist and I believe SS should be repealed, just like Obamacare. If SS was an investment it seems your generation did a pretty lousy job of insuring the money was managed well.

I guess they call unmonitored investments dumb money for a reason.

Thorack
Equal under the law. Means testing takes away equality and isn't lawful. Either we all get what we paid for or nobody does and the tax goes away. Better to have it all go to hell and it all falls apart then to be a dead beat on a promiss to the nation.

Let it all fall apart and see who is left standing.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:23   #39
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Let it all fall apart and see who is left standing.
DakTo will call you a doomer!
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:26   #40
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DakTo will call you a doomer!
Just a little impatient with the criminals running the government In reality I am very optimistic we could do much better after we throw the trash out.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:28   #41
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The "trash" won't go willingly...
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Old May 19, 2012, 13:31   #42
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I say take the money whether you need it or not.
It's your money and if you don't take it the government will likely piss it away anyway. You paid into the fund and are entitled to the payouts.
I think many people receive the funds at age 66 and continue to work just to make ends meet.

The politicians and advocates may talk about reforming or abandoning the fund but those entitled will be paid in some fashion.
The first thing which needs fixing is the annual shortfall and piling of national debt. Medicare is also a priority as it has overreached to the point that it is fiscally broken and will likely be rolled into a future affordable national healthcare program.
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Old May 19, 2012, 13:32   #43
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The "trash" won't go willingly...
Resistence is futile When they crash the dolllar then they have no power. It's why they call these sumits, they need to hold their power together. They have allready crashed and it's just a matter if time till trash day takes place.
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Old May 19, 2012, 13:49   #44
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It's ALWAYS been a tax - it was Johnson that changed way the money was treated - it allowed the fed gov to "borrow" from the segregated fund and replace the money with non negotiable bonds - IOUs - to be paid back with.... current taxes - which incidentally, only cover 60% of our current federal spending - we borrow the rest - but you already know all this.
What is it with you people! "the money goes into the general fund and is not earmarked in any way." Holy freakin cow no wonder we're fuked.
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Old May 19, 2012, 15:38   #45
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/socia...ty/changes.asp

The govt gets to invest these funds (ss receipts) - so it invests them in govt bonds (spending the proceeds on whatever they fuking want to - funding the govt) then pays the fund back when the money needs to be disbursed - guess what, we're fuking BROKE JR! what part of BROKE do you not understand? there is no there THERE so they will fuking PRINT IT! debasing the purchasing power of those checks- this is 8th grade materiel here - sheesh. There IS no trust fund/lockbox - pure hoax - the ss and medicare checks are paid by the treasury - from the general fund - which is in the hole - we're spending 143% of what we take in - get it?

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Old May 19, 2012, 15:55   #46
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I don't care, I began collecting my SS at the start of the month. Incidently, it is my only source of income. Five years of unemployment wiped out what very little I had in IRAs after Merrill Lynch had already squandered most of it away. My IRA was losing $1300 a month for over two years when unemployment forced me to withdraw it to live on as a single parent. And, the amount I had was about half of what I earned and saved as result of a divorce.
No wonder you couldn't find a job you live in a retirement community.
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Old May 19, 2012, 16:06   #47
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The Debt owed the Social Security "Trust" Fund is probably much greater than our current national debt.
At one time for accounting purposes funds "borrowed" were accounted for, no longer, we who contributed for all our lives and put our trust in our elected and appointed bureaucracies and our own inured gullibility even as late as the 2000 election campaign when AlGore referred to the SocSec Trust Fund repeatedly.
Run like a sacrosanct retirement fund every SocSec recipient would receive funds based on on his or hers and their employers contribution at a prorated life expectancy predicated on a actuarial formula,,, actuaries (and me) know not everyone lives to the life expected age there by leaving a surplus.
Of my peers I am among the last of the Mohican's, the majority having passed on. The government concludes there are still too many Mohican's left and not enough Indians,,, dichotomous ain't it?
We haven't run out of money we have run out of people we can trust implicitly,,, we are not able to fix gullible, greedy or stupid,,, in my opinion.
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Old May 19, 2012, 16:13   #48
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Snopes is what you rely on for your authority!!?? You are not serious....
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Old May 19, 2012, 16:20   #49
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The govt doesn't invest the funds in anything. There already in the general fund. Don't tell me they're broke like I don't know that. What you don't get is that it was a fraud from the word go. It's all wordsmithing to cover up the fact of the fraud - blaming one administration over another, there all crooks. Don't use some idiotic site like Snopes to support a position. Snopes can't be relied on for anything, let alone the truth.
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Old May 19, 2012, 16:35   #50
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I've got no problem either working myself to death or starving to death, but I won't do both at the same time!
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