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Old March 09, 2018, 07:13   #1
Bubacus
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South Africa's EFF: "Cut the throat of whiteness"

Looks like the SA's Economic Freedom Fighters party is jumping on the band wagon of land siezure from whites now. When the smoke clears there will be a whole new crop of dictators that exploit their supporters. Hope the white folks are gunning up.




https://www.fin24.com/Opinion/is-jul...-ball-20180307

Is Julius Malema's EFF a nation builder or a wrecking ball?

MANY of us heaved a collective sigh of relief when the Zupta-commissioned Bell Pottinger racial campaign was outed about a year ago.

Sadly, the campaign had had a successful run of just over a year before it was unmasked for what it was. Much of the damage had already been done. A lot of fear had been sown in the lives of many South Africans, leaving some of them making enquiries about possible emigration to safer countries for the sake of their own lives and the future of their children - and our already fragile national unity was further weakened.

Now we have to deal with heightened levels of suspicion among different communities.

This is not good for South Africa.

We had almost reached the edge of a precipice when we realised that all the racist slogans being bandied about by the Zupta apologists – we know who they are - were part of a well-orchestrated campaign to derail the South Africa we sought to build together in the early years of our democracy.

At the time, many of us were persuaded that the Economic Freedom Fighters were on the side of national unity. After all, they too urged the ANC – which spent almost a decade defending the indefensible - to place the interests of South Africa ahead of its own.

It seems we were wrong to look at the EFF’s leadership as maturing, potential national leaders of a diverse South Africa.

It was premature to start celebrating the departure of racially divisive forces when we saw off Bell Pottinger and opened up the belly of the Zupta-led state capture. The sad thing is that we South Africans keep doing this to ourselves. A bad person gets chased out or assigned new responsibilities and we make that an excuse to start celebrating.

How many times must we be kicked in the behind before we realise that where a cancerous cell has been taken out – especially after a long period of germination or metastasising in the body - more time must be spent checking the body for any remnants of the said cancer, and cleaning it out completely before we start with our braaing?

The wrecking ball EFF

From where I sit, the only difference between the Zupta-commissioned and funded Bell Pottinger campaign, the Black First Land First (BLF) movement and the EFF is that whereas the former were paid directly by the Guptas – OK, by money obtained through unconventional methods - the EFF is paid by directly by us, the taxpayers.

This party has seen it fit to use its parliamentary legitimacy to continue the work of Bell Pottinger, the BLF, and several individuals whose lifestyles were allegedly funded by the Guptas.

Like many South Africans, I supported the EFF when it harassed former president Jacob Zuma in the National Assembly and on other forums, leading to his eventual removal. I even used my chess vote in favour of them for being steadfast against Zuma’s horrific, divisive leadership of our country.

But I will not vote for them again. Especially as they remind me of places like Nazi Germany, Rwanda and Zimbabwe each time their leader has taken to the podium since the departure of Zuma.

I will not be one to be remembered for claiming that I didn't know; or that I saw nothing wrong with it; or that I didn’t think they were serious when history gets written about a bunch of people who, driven by misplaced emotions, political immaturity and opportunism, will have driven a country to ground by racially harassing innocent people and causing them to flee the country of their birth.

'So-called white land thieves'

We should also not assume that the so-called white land thieves are a bunch of unarmed cowards who will simply cower in the face of EFF zealots and run. Chances are that some will stand their ground and fight to defend what they believe to be rightfully theirs. Blood will be spilt and innocent lives will be lost.

None of this is necessary.

With the forced early departure of Jacob Zuma from office - the low hanging political fruit the EFF fed on to reach its current heights - Malema’s party seems to have served its purpose and to be in a frantic search at the stinking bottoms of our political dustbins for other reasons to remain relevant and in the public’s eye.

Early indications are that they’re prepared to grab at anything to achieve this - including their infantile wrestling with inanimate mannequins in H&M stores a few months ago - even at the risk of causing a racial war and social unrest in South Africa.

South Africa is a complex, richly diverse, and largely modern African country. No one can lead it successfully without first acknowledging these qualities and, in the spirit of its progressive founding documents, pledging to honour and harness the talents of all its people, irrespective of their racial, ethnic, religious, sexual and gender identity backgrounds, to make it a home for all its people and a leader in a world increasingly hungry for inspiring leadership with a vision.

The kind of leader who would be the right fit to lead the South Africa I describe above will come with emotional intelligence, maturity, balance, patience, tolerance and solid self-esteem - all of which are qualities I struggle to locate in Malema.

In fact, if Julius Malema were a cake I was baking for my dinner guests, I would not take him out of the oven just yet. I would leave him in there for a little longer, especially going by his infantile belligerence against our fellow South Africans and the disrespect of the vision we all set for this country at the dawn of our democracy.
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Old March 09, 2018, 14:12   #2
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Watched a vid the other day with Simon Rouche and Stefan Molyneux.
It gave a very good insite as to exactly who and what is the problem in South Africa. Basically,the "black" rulers running South Africa are just too stupid to run South Africa. They have no idea what to do to improve things,and moreover,can't even admit they have no idea that they don't know how to run things. And now are advocating killing the only people in the country who do know how to run things. The rest of the world really should just persue a "hands-off" approach to South Africa,other than aid the white South Africans who want to move to less hostile-to-their-race countries.
Ironic too,the majority of "blacks" in South Africa are no more indigenous to that region of Africa than are the White Boers who colonized it.
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Old March 09, 2018, 14:55   #3
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Like it or not whites will be leaving SA, either voluntarily or leaving for the hereafter.
Any other outcome is delusional.




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Old March 09, 2018, 15:11   #4
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Like it or not whites will be leaving SA, either voluntarily or leaving for the hereafter.
Any other outcome is delusional.




................juanni
It'll be pure Garden of Eden stuff ever after, you wait and see!

On the other hand, there probably won't be many SA forum threads with obesity as a topic...
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Old March 09, 2018, 18:35   #5
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It'll be pure Garden of Eden stuff ever after, you wait and see!

On the other hand, there probably won't be many SA forum threads with obesity as a topic...
Probably not.
But Africa like many places big looming problem is too many people, not enough resources. It won't really matter who is running the govts when that day comes.




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Old March 10, 2018, 18:38   #6
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... But Africa like many places big looming problem is too many people, not enough TECHNOLOGY.
fify... Ye Olde Earth is currently supporting 3-5x the population Duh Malthusian doomsayers have said is "impossible"... (depending on which era you start reading them...)

No, as has been proven by The Boers for the last 3+ centuries, the RSA has PLENTY of farmland, PLENTY of mineral resources... but soon it will be suffering a literally fatal dearth of IQ... and work ethic... and so it goes... maybe "Wakanda" will save them?
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Old March 10, 2018, 19:01   #7
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All land belongs to those that can take and hold it, against all that wish to take and hold it.

Give SA a few years with the folks currently holding the land and it will change hands once again.

Cape Town will soon be out of drinking water, sewage will be backed up into the streets, chaos will be the norm, the new "owners", after this bunch, will be the rough and tumble types required to take and hold the land there once more.

Its the way the world works.
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Old March 10, 2018, 20:03   #8
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All land belongs to those that can take and hold it, against all that wish to take and hold it.

Give SA a few years with the folks currently holding the land and it will change hands once again.

Cape Town will soon be out of drinking water, sewage will be backed up into the streets, chaos will be the norm, the new "owners", after this bunch, will be the rough and tumble types required to take and hold the land there once more.

Its the way the world works.
You should be a South African realtor...almost make me want to go there looking for a nice place...
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Old March 10, 2018, 20:27   #9
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I'd like to quote John Edmond, from his song "The Battle of Bembezi":

"The wild Ingubu with the fierce Imbezu on their right
came charging from the northern bush, they were a fearful sight
And near 6000 warriors - we stopped them on the run
The bravest of the brave could never match the Maxim gun."

That is what's needed down there.

I know that old Maxims are not very practical nowadays, but their more modern sons and grandsons will do the job equally well.....
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Old March 10, 2018, 21:30   #10
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You should be a South African realtor...almost make me want to go there looking for a nice place...
Not just yet, current chaos has got to run its course first, then, suspect it will be a nice place to live again.

Empires and countries rise and fall from a historical standpoint all the time.

South Africa will rise once again.
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Old March 11, 2018, 08:30   #11
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Maybe Trump should find a way to sign an EO for white South Africans who want to immigrate into this country like Bam-Bam did for the "dreamers".
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Old March 11, 2018, 10:08   #12
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Lynch the neck of blackness....
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Old March 11, 2018, 13:41   #13
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Lynch the neck of blackness....
Oh Swo, you know it ain't got nuthin to do with simple skin color.

These people are tribal, like many people in the world and tribal does not lead to the best flowing to the top.

Them gypsy's/travelers in England/Europe are all mostly lilly white and they are about worthless, by most peoples standards, and have been worthless for ages.

The people now in charge of South Africa remind me of giving little children advance weapons in a war zone, say tanks and planes, nothing good is going to occur with that.
They can't operate it, can't maintain it, and someone will come along and give them 10 bucks for an F4 Phantom, 20 dollars for an M1 Abrams tank and they are so dumb/so poorly educated they think they got a good deal.

South Africa had a long track record of not working to educate the majority population, which takes DECADES, and one day, the majority population reared back and took by force what was controlled by the minority population.

They got it now, but can't make it function, and being tribal in nature, are too proud to ask for help from people that can make it operate, so it all falls apart.

When it completely falls apart, the majority people there will revert back to what they know, and someone will step in and take over, take it all away from them, again.

The trick, don't repeat the mistakes of the past, which will take all sides in SA facing some hard ass truths.

I don;t see it happening in my lifetime, or yours, people tend to stick with what they know, even if its wrong headed and stupid.
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Old March 11, 2018, 13:48   #14
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So if they remove all the Whites, from South Africa - what if we did an exchange?
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Old March 11, 2018, 14:12   #15
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2 for 1 since they're so oppressed here.
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Old March 11, 2018, 15:26   #16
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fify... Ye Olde Earth is currently supporting 3-5x the population Duh Malthusian doomsayers have said is "impossible"... (depending on which era you start reading them...)

No, as has been proven by The Boers for the last 3+ centuries, the RSA has PLENTY of farmland, PLENTY of mineral resources... but soon it will be suffering a literally fatal dearth of IQ... and work ethic... and so it goes... maybe "Wakanda" will save them?

Massive populations are supported by cheap, fairly easy to extract fossil fuels.
One day those will be gone or the energy to extract will approach the energy extracted.

Old spindletop required 1 barrel to extract 100 barrels. As we approach 1 to 1 all that cheap fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides will be gone.

Water buffalo dung won't fill the void to fertilize and feed billions of mouths.




..................juanni
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Old March 11, 2018, 19:38   #17
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How about a fair trade?

We will take all their whites and we will send them our blacks.
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Old March 12, 2018, 08:49   #18
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2 for 1 since they're so oppressed here.
do i hear 10 to 1?

going once...
going twice...
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Old March 12, 2018, 12:29   #19
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Massive populations are supported by cheap, fairly easy to extract fossil fuels.
One day those will be gone or the energy to extract will approach the energy extracted.

Old spindletop required 1 barrel to extract 100 barrels. As we approach 1 to 1 all that cheap fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides will be gone.

Water buffalo dung won't fill the void to fertilize and feed billions of mouths.




..................juanni
Any idea how much of our countries farm land is parked and paid to be unused in .gov management programs? Yeah I didn't think so. Your chicken little crap about the sky falling doesn't fly when actual math and not common core is involved.
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Old March 12, 2018, 12:39   #20
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Any idea how much of our countries farm land is parked and paid to be unused in .gov management programs? Yeah I didn't think so. Your chicken little crap about the sky falling doesn't fly when actual math and not common core is involved.
Work on your reading skills, I said there will eventually be a shortage of OIL BASED essentials required to support large scale farming. Plus all the transportation costs.

2nd time, for those who require it.
As we approach 1 to 1 all that cheap fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides will be gone.

The critical concept is “energy return on investment,” or EROI. This means the amount of energy obtained from each unit of energy invested. When oil first began to flow, its EROI was around 100, according to State University of New York professor Charles Hall. Drillers would use one barrel to extract 100 barrels from the ground. As more wells were drilled and producers added infrastructure, the EROI ratio dropped. New wells over time grew less productive, further decreasing EROI. In the early 1950s the EROI associated with refined oil products like gasoline was about 20. Today, it takes about one barrel of conventional U.S. oil to produce the equivalent of nine barrels, or 378 gallons of gasoline.

Meanwhile, the EROI for nonconventional oil, that is, oil produced from shale and tar sands, stands even lower, at about four.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp.../#54e1c7141252



Not that there would be a shortage of potential farm land.




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Old March 12, 2018, 14:34   #21
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Work on your reading skills, I said there will eventually be a shortage of OIL BASED essentials required to support large scale farming. Plus all the transportation costs.

2nd time, for those who require it.
As we approach 1 to 1 all that cheap fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides will be gone.

The critical concept is “energy return on investment,” or EROI. This means the amount of energy obtained from each unit of energy invested. When oil first began to flow, its EROI was around 100, according to State University of New York professor Charles Hall. Drillers would use one barrel to extract 100 barrels from the ground. As more wells were drilled and producers added infrastructure, the EROI ratio dropped. New wells over time grew less productive, further decreasing EROI. In the early 1950s the EROI associated with refined oil products like gasoline was about 20. Today, it takes about one barrel of conventional U.S. oil to produce the equivalent of nine barrels, or 378 gallons of gasoline.

Meanwhile, the EROI for nonconventional oil, that is, oil produced from shale and tar sands, stands even lower, at about four.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp.../#54e1c7141252



Not that there would be a shortage of potential farm land.




................juanni
Nice broken link. So I can't argue with anything other than what you quoted.

The neat thing about these "studies" is they alway ignore crucial facts like the most obvious......useage. I can say with 100 percent certainly that the oil useage increased exponentially in the time frame you quoted. "First started to flow, 1950's, now. I thought I said no common core? Which if you don't take that, as well as technological improvements in refining into account, pretty much leaves you with shit. But by all means carry on.
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Old March 12, 2018, 15:23   #22
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Work on your reading skills, I said there will eventually be a shortage of OIL BASED essentials required to support large scale farming. Plus all the transportation costs.

2nd time, for those who require it.
As we approach 1 to 1 all that cheap fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides will be gone.

[B]The critical concept is “energy return on investment,” or EROI. This means the amount of energy obtained from each unit of energy invested. When oil first began to flow, its EROI was around 100, according to State University of New York professor Charles Hall ... blah blah blah

................juanni
Been hearing this crap from the same bunch of idiots for over 50 years now. Never happens, likely never will. At least not the way they like to present it. At worst a shift that the markets will take care of if and when it ever happens.

And by now it should be no surprise that fools, including the likes of 'State of New York professor yuketty-yuk' get their panties all in a wad about running out of energy as they know absolutely positively zero about the geology of petroleum or refining technology, not to mention the forces that drive research and development in free markets. These are the sorts of folks that will be contemplating what could possibly be wrong with their keys when their engines quit.

Yep, makes perfect sense to me. If you want to project the future direction of a petroleum-based economy that feeds 80% of the planet, has almost single handedly extended human life expectancy by over 100 percent, routinely sends autonomous robots to other planets and has figured out the nature of the universe to within a second or two of the big bang itself ya gotta talk to a Zoologist. One whose experience with the energy industry is limited to topping off his tank at the local quick-stop. Yep, that's what I'd do alright. It'd be funny if it wasn't true.
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Old March 12, 2018, 15:37   #23
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Been hearing this crap from the same bunch of idiots for over 50 years now. Never happens, likely never will. At least not the way they like to present it. At worst a shift that the markets will take care of if and when it ever happens.

And by now it should be no surprise that fools, including the likes of 'State of New York professor yuketty-yuk' get their panties all in a wad about running out of energy as they know absolutely positively zero about the geology of petroleum or refining technology, not to mention the forces that drive research and development in free markets. These are the sorts of folks that will be contemplating what could possibly be wrong with their keys when their engines quit.

Yep, makes perfect sense to me. If you want to project the future direction of a petroleum-based economy that feeds 80% of the planet, routinely sends autonomous robots to other planets and has figured out the nature of the universe to within a second or two of the big bang itself, talk to a Zoologist whose experience with the energy industry is limited to topping off his tank at the local quick-stop. Yep, that's what I'd do alright. It'd be funny if it wasn't true.
I'm still waiting for the new ice age, or is it the new we're all going to burn up and blow away, or that Florida will be under water, by about 20 years ago, and that beach front property in AZ, would be nice, ain't happened, but it would be nice.

Show me any man or woman that makes a prediction about this world 20 or 30 or more years into the future, I'll show ya a FOOL.

1st time I was told oil had run dry, was fifty years ago.

These people making predictions are the new snake oil salesmen of the 21 century.

Tha sky ain't falling.
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Old March 12, 2018, 15:49   #24
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I'm still waiting for the new ice age, or is it the new we're all going to burn up and blow away, or that Florida will be under water, by about 20 years ago, and that beach front property in AZ, would be nice, ain't happened, but it would be nice.

Show me any man or woman that makes a prediction about this world 20 or 30 or more years into the future, I'll show ya a FOOL.

1st time I was told oil had run dry, was fifty years ago.

These people making predictions are the new snake oil salesmen of the 21 century.

Tha sky ain't falling.
Yeah no kidding. What kills me is two things, first how they can manage this with a straight face? Although I'll grant the possibility does exist that they really are even dumber than they act and, like the class retard, don't actually get the jokes they themselves are telling. The second thing is how anyone with a brains God gave a claw hammer still listens to 'em? Kinda like turning your life savings into gold because some guy who is in the business of selling gold tells you financial doomsday is at hand and it's the thing to own.

Yep, if you step back and look at the big picture long enough patterns do indeed emerge. Just not the ones that get all the ink. It's too bad but it does seem that, like the speed of light, the old saw about not being able to fix stupid applies everywhere.
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Old March 12, 2018, 15:51   #25
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Today, it takes about one barrel of conventional U.S. oil to produce the equivalent of nine barrels, or 378 gallons of gasoline.
Umm, The math at 9 barrels @ 20 gallons of gasoline per barrel, makes it 180 gallons of gasoline, not 378. The rest is diesel, etc. So it is even less? Unless you meant 18.9 barrels.
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Old March 12, 2018, 15:58   #26
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Yeah no kidding. What kills me is two things, first how they can manage this with a straight face? Although I'll grant the possibility does exist that they really are even dumber than they act and, like the class retard, don't actually get the jokes they themselves are telling. The second thing is how anyone with a brains God gave a claw hammer still listens to 'em? Kinda like turning your life savings into gold because some guy who is in the business of selling gold tells you financial doomsday is at hand and it's the thing to own.

Yep, if you step back and look at the big picture long enough patterns do indeed emerge. Just not the ones that get all the ink. It's too bad but it does seem that, like the speed of light, the old saw about not being able to fix stupid applies everywhere.
Right now, today, and for a long time, the smart people ALL say, you can't go faster than the speed of light.
Of course tomorrow, someone will drop by for a burger and fries in a faster than light spacecraft.
Zero hedge makes a living out of, the sky is falling.
The one that's making the rounds now, global warming is the cause for all this massive cold and snow the world over and the world in general growing colder over the past 40 years.
Some folks will believe damn near anything, as heard on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
TV!
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:05   #27
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Right now, today, and for a long time, the smart people ALL say, you can't go faster than the speed of light.
Of course tomorrow, someone will drop by for a burger and fries in a faster than light spacecraft.
Zero hedge makes a living out of, the sky is falling.
The one that's making the rounds now, global warming is the cause for all this massive cold and snow the world over and the world in general growing colder over the past 40 years.
Some folks will believe damn near anything, as heard on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
TV!
Somewhere someone is laughing his ass off. Yep, that's it, global warming is the reason we saw snow this AM in the Atlanta metro area. Truly folks will believe what they want to. All you gotta do is convince 'em they want to believe it. Cue the advertising department, enter stage left.

My old man had no idea how smart he was when he said television would turn me into an idiot and told me to go outside and find something else to do. He would not recognize what the world has become and to be honest there are times I don't recognize it myself.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:06   #28
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Right now, today, and for a long time, the smart people ALL say, you can't go faster than the speed of light.
You really can't, so that's why alien civilizations use the hyperdrive, warp drive, tachyon shunt, etc. to get around that restriction.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:12   #29
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You really can't, so that's why alien civilizations use the hyperdrive, warp drive, tachyon shunt, etc. to get around that restriction.
See, ya can go go faster than light!

Thanks Mebs.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:36   #30
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Been hearing this crap from the same bunch of idiots for over 50 years now. Never happens, likely never will. At least not the way they like to present it. At worst a shift that the markets will take care of if and when it ever happens.
Ummm........ Bubbs it isn't a PREDICTION, it is what is happening.

Are drillers tapping into gushers like they did 100 years ago? >>NO.
Are any wells producing 100 to 1? >>NO.

Clearly the trend over the last century is lower ratios of EROI. 4 to 1 is a long way from 100 to 1, but not that far from 1 to 1.

What markets are going to create more cheap energy on a planet of finite resources?




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Old March 12, 2018, 16:41   #31
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Today, it takes about one barrel of conventional U.S. oil to produce the equivalent of nine barrels, or 378 gallons of gasoline.

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Umm, The math at 9 barrels @ 20 gallons of gasoline per barrel, makes it 180 gallons of gasoline, not 378. The rest is diesel, etc. So it is even less? Unless you meant 18.9 barrels.
They are referring to the amount of energy required (1 barrel) to extract and refine and produce XXX barrels of product.

NOT the number of gallons you get out of a barrel of oil.

So if it takes 1 barrel to get 100 barrels out of the ground and to market that is far easier and cheaper than only getting 4 barrels out of the ground (tar sand).

When you get to 1 to 1, it takes 1 barrel to get 1 barrel, in short no gain.




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Old March 12, 2018, 16:47   #32
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Ummm........ Bubbs it is happening.

Are drillers tapping into gushers like they did 100 years ago? >>NO.
Are any wells producing 100 to 1? >>NO.

Clearly the trend over the last century is lower ratios of EROI. 4 to 1 is a long way from 100 to 1, but not that far from 1 to 1.

What markets are going to create more cheap energy on a planet of finite resources?




................juanni
In real terms, is energy cheaper or more expensive than it was 100 years ago? How many hours do I have to work a year to purchase one kilowatt-hour of energy? Or for that matter was the amount of energy the average joe flushes through his house today even available for any price 100 years ago? Use what units you will, but lets use something meaningful instead of a metric that has been reduced to about two percent of it's value over the time period like the US dollar has. Personally I like man-hours. But to put it in real terms a kilowatt-hour of energy is a shitload and a lot more and is probably about what one person can generate over the course of a day in terms of physical labor if he's young and in good shape. For me I can just about generate 200 watts for an hour on a spin bike, that would be about one fifth of a KwH and at the end of that I'm ready for the jacuzzi.

As to what markets are going to create energy, well that's a question only an idiot would ask. Because markets don't create things, never have. They only channel needs and provide an avenue for commerce. People will create the supply just as people create the demand. The self-same people who will move to alternatives when market forces dictate and to the extent required. Capable, competent people with salable skills and tangible things to offer others who are willing to trade freely for them. Not zoologists or education majors who at the end of the day rely on government muscle to extort their daily bread from the rest of us. They call it the free market system, you might look it up sometime.

It kills me how the least competent folks always somehow wind up thinking they have the answers. I am coming around to the notion that we have always been far too tolerant of idiots and while that on it's own is a kindness it becomes less so when they start thinking they have something to offer the rest of us. They really are a pox on society and we should have pulled their dicks off and tossed 'em on the back door at birth. Would have been kinder all around.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:02   #33
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Nice broken link. So I can't argue with anything other than what you quoted.

The neat thing about these "studies" is they alway ignore crucial facts like the most obvious......useage. I can say with 100 percent certainly that the oil useage increased exponentially in the time frame you quoted. "First started to flow, 1950's, now. I thought I said no common core? Which if you don't take that, as well as technological improvements in refining into account, pretty much leaves you with shit. But by all means carry on.
Yes energy use increased with population growth, that is the point. What to you think will happen to energy use if the world population doubles, or triples?

Yet oil is getting harder and more expensive to extract.
And large scale farming is completely dependent on cheap energy.

The link is Forbes, they make you jump through hoops to read the article.

Here is some others.

https://srsroccoreport.com/the-comin...alysts-missed/

https://www.sindark.com/2008/08/23/o...vestment-eroi/





....................juanni
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:12   #34
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In real terms, is energy cheaper or more expensive than it was 100 years ago? How many hours do I have to work a year to purchase one kilowatt-hour of energy? Or for that matter was the amount of energy the average joe flushes through his house today even available for any price 100 years ago? Use what units you will, but lets use something meaningful instead of a metric that has been reduced to about two percent of it's value over the time period like the US dollar has.
That is the reason to use energy required to extract energy.
It eliminates all the variables and manipulations.

If you have to hoof up a mountain to reach a 1000 calorie meal, but it takes 1200 calories to go there and back you aren't gaining calories you are losing them. Keep doing that and eventually you die.


Cost over time using paper currency isn't going to be accurate given how most currencies have nothing backing them and are manipulated.

Neither will be using gold or other finite commodities.




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Old March 12, 2018, 17:14   #35
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Yes energy use increased with population growth, that is the point. What to you think will happen to energy use if the world population doubles, or triples?

Yet oil is getting harder and more expensive to extract.
And large scale farming is completely dependent on cheap energy.

The link is Forbes, they make you jump through hoops to read the article.

Here is some others.

https://srsroccoreport.com/the-comin...alysts-missed/

https://www.sindark.com/2008/08/23/o...vestment-eroi/





....................juanni
Well an easy answer might be found by looking at what it has done as the population has grown over the last century, from under a billion to maybe seven or eight today. But to your earlier question it's so cheap today that folks are shuttering wells as you said yourself. Not exactly what you'd expect 'em to be doing if it was drying up. Quite the reverse actually.

Edited to add this little gem:

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That is the reason to use energy required to extract energy.

... blah blah blah
................juanni
It apparently hasn't occurred to you that measuring the cost of energy in terms of energy expended renders the whole discussion circular. Kinda like how we need a triumphant video so we can get Eddie Van Halen in the band but can't get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video. The whole discussion is nonsensical unless you can actually play your instruments.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:29   #36
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:30   #37
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But to your earlier question it's so cheap today that folks are shuttering wells as you said yourself. Not exactly what you'd expect 'em to be doing if it was drying up. Quite the reverse actually.
Not really.

We don't have freemarkets with Central Banks worldwide creating gobs of new money which has flowed to shale and other low/no return 'investments'.

But the malinvestment will correct. Oil prices will rise with a return to scarcity after our credit fueled boom, busts. The unprofitable producers will be gone and then they will reopen those shuttered wells.



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Old March 12, 2018, 17:35   #38
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That is the reason to use energy required to extract energy.
It eliminates all the variables and manipulations.

If you have to hoof up a mountain to reach a 1000 calorie meal, but it takes 1200 calories to go there and back you aren't gaining calories you are losing them. Keep doing that and eventually you die.


Cost over time using paper currency isn't going to be accurate given how most currencies have nothing backing them and are manipulated.

Neither will be using gold or other finite commodities.




................juanni
Horseshit. Circular argument. If you expend 1000 kwh to produce 1000 kwh then you haven't produced anything at all. It must be measured in terms of something else to be meaningful.

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Not really.

We don't have freemarkets with Central Banks worldwide creating gobs of new money which has flowed to shale and other low/no return 'investments'.

But the malinvestment will correct. Oil prices will rise with a return to scarcity after our credit fueled boom, busts. The unprofitable producers will be gone and then they will reopen those shuttered wells.



.................juanni
Agreed about the markets, they ain't free in the classical sense. Although at one level free markets do exist in that reality intercedes eventually. Bankers are really good at distorting things over the short term but nature seems to always have it's way in the end. Forest fires are really only delayed, never prevented entirely. And despite all the medical technology deployed today everyone still dies.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:47   #39
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Horseshit. Circular argument. If you expend 1000 kwh to produce 1000 kwh then you haven't produced anything at all. It must be measured in terms of something else to be meaningful.
Correct, no net gain in energy. And that is the whole point getting a energy source where you gain more energy than it took to extract it.

And I know you don't like that result, but that is where we are heading no matter what the price might be in dollars, sea shells or tulips.





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Old March 12, 2018, 17:49   #40
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Are drillers tapping into gushers like they did 100 years ago? >>NO.


................juanni
They have blow-out preventers etc now. Probably the last one everyone heard about was offshore in the Gulf of Mexico.
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Old March 12, 2018, 18:02   #41
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Correct, no net gain in energy. And that is the whole point getting a energy source where you gain more energy than it took to extract it.

And I know you don't like that result, but that is where we are heading no matter what the price might be in dollars, sea shells or tulips.





...............juanni
It ain't whether I like it or not. But defining energy in terms of the energy it takes to produce it is like defining a dollar by saying it contains four quarters. It's meaningless. The real value is represented by the real cost, and the question is whether or not the unit cost is going up or down relative to everything else (hint: GDP would be a place to start).
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Old March 12, 2018, 18:25   #42
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Old March 12, 2018, 23:16   #43
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It ain't whether I like it or not. But defining energy in terms of the energy it takes to produce it is like defining a dollar by saying it contains four quarters. It's meaningless. The real value is represented by the real cost, and the question is whether or not the unit cost is going up or down relative to everything else (hint: GDP would be a place to start).
No, it is like saying it takes 4.9 cents to print a dollar.
^Great return on that 5 cent investment, that is why we are addicted to printing dollars.
But you want to determine the 'real cost' to print a dollar in beaver pelts or GDP.


Cost in a currency that is speculated and manipulated?
Cost in relation to things that that are speculated, manipulated and subsidized?

No, it should be intuitive that finite resources are getting harder to find and extract.

Are people huddled over California rivers picking out nuggets and panning for gold?
No, because the easy gold is gone.
Now they dig massive pits and move tons of dirt to get an oz of gold.

Are people picking up diamonds up off the ground in S Africa?
No, because the easy diamonds are gone, now mines are dug thousands of feet down to get to them.

Is Jed Clampet shooting at some food and up comes bubbling crude?
No, because the easy to get oil right at or below the surface in the US is gone.

Regardless of the price in dollars or peanuts, oil is getting harder to find and harder to extract.
And the wells have a much shorter life.
^All that should mean more expensive but that may not be so in the land of fiat money with the world's reserve currency.

So based on past results of the last 100 years this will continue to the point of diminishing returns rendering producing the quantity of oil needed to meet demand will be impossible.

It doesn't mean that there won't be any oil at any price.

Are blacks in Africa wearing diamonds and gold bling?
No, because they can't afford it.
And one day they won't be able to afford food, and it won't be just them.




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Old March 13, 2018, 04:59   #44
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No, it is like saying it takes 4.9 cents to print a dollar.
^Great return on that 5 cent investment, that is why we are addicted to printing dollars.
But you want to determine the 'real cost' to print a dollar in beaver pelts or GDP.


Cost in a currency that is speculated and manipulated?
Cost in relation to things that that are speculated, manipulated and subsidized?

No, it should be intuitive that finite resources are getting harder to find and extract.

Are people huddled over California rivers picking out nuggets and panning for gold?
No, because the easy gold is gone.
Now they dig massive pits and move tons of dirt to get an oz of gold.

Are people picking up diamonds up off the ground in S Africa?
No, because the easy diamonds are gone, now mines are dug thousands of feet down to get to them.

Is Jed Clampet shooting at some food and up comes bubbling crude?
No, because the easy to get oil right at or below the surface in the US is gone.

Regardless of the price in dollars or peanuts, oil is getting harder to find and harder to extract.
And the wells have a much shorter life.
^All that should mean more expensive but that may not be so in the land of fiat money with the world's reserve currency.

So based on past results of the last 100 years this will continue to the point of diminishing returns rendering producing the quantity of oil needed to meet demand will be impossible.

It doesn't mean that there won't be any oil at any price.

Are blacks in Africa wearing diamonds and gold bling?
No, because they can't afford it.
And one day they won't be able to afford food, and it won't be just them.




.................juanni
Too much silliness to even parse. Honestly do you read your shit before you throw it up? Nobody is saying that extracting fossil fuels won't become more challenging in the centuries ahead (yes, centuries, not tomorrow). But as with most things some rise to the challenge and make it happen, some don't. And those that don't generally can't imagine it because to do so is beyond their ability, not to mention experience. They would be well advised to just sit down, stfu and stay out of it but for some reason they seem to insist on being heard. I guess stupid ain't enough for 'em, they need to make sure everyone knows about it.

To the 'quantity of oil meeting demand being impossible', it's apparently hasn't occurred to you that demand fluctuates along with supply, and that price is the bellweather. Yep J old feller, when it gets too pricey folks do other things. They ride bikes, motorcycles, or they telecommute like I do. They use alternatives to petrochemical-based plastics. Hell, maybe your fat girlfriends will have to take up running to Wendy's. The nice thing about markets is they align demand to supply, rendering interventionist cheerleaders like yourselves irrelevant. Neat, eh? Except there ain't no need for the sort of end-of-the-world blathering you're selling. The world changes, we move on. It's what we do.

But you're right about one thing. We're seeing it as I type this, coming out of the coldest winter in recent memory gas prices are about 60% of what they were a couple years ago and I'm buying Shell gift cards at Publix for 20% off. End of the world? Hardly and dude you really do need to get a new angle, this one is plumb wore out.
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Old March 13, 2018, 05:28   #45
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Old March 13, 2018, 07:30   #46
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do i hear 10 to 1?

going once...
going twice...
Why Yes... Yes! We have way too many here, back to the Motherland for them in their new Utopia.
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Old March 13, 2018, 07:49   #47
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We've come a long way from killing white South Africans. How about you put this thread out of its misery, Bubacus?
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:50   #48
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Too much silliness to even parse. Honestly do you read your shit before you throw it up? Nobody is saying that extracting fossil fuels won't become more challenging in the centuries ahead (yes, centuries, not tomorrow). But as with most things some rise to the challenge and make it happen, some don't. And those that don't generally can't imagine it because to do so is beyond their ability, not to mention experience. They would be well advised to just sit down, stfu and stay out of it but for some reason they seem to insist on being heard. I guess stupid ain't enough for 'em, they need to make sure everyone knows about it.

To the 'quantity of oil meeting demand being impossible', it's apparently hasn't occurred to you that demand fluctuates along with supply, and that price is the bellweather. Yep J old feller, when it gets too pricey folks do other things. They ride bikes, motorcycles, or they telecommute like I do. They use alternatives to petrochemical-based plastics. Hell, maybe your fat girlfriends will have to take up running to Wendy's. The nice thing about markets is they align demand to supply, rendering interventionist cheerleaders like yourselves irrelevant. Neat, eh? Except there ain't no need for the sort of end-of-the-world blathering you're selling. The world changes, we move on. It's what we do.

But you're right about one thing. We're seeing it as I type this, coming out of the coldest winter in recent memory gas prices are about 60% of what they were a couple years ago and I'm buying Shell gift cards at Publix for 20% off. End of the world? Hardly and dude you really do need to get a new angle, this one is plumb wore out.


You just can't get it through your head or accept that regardless of how much oil is down there or what it is priced at and in, IF the energy required to extract is anywhere close to what is extracted, the energy fueled economy and population boom is done.





..................juanni
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:59   #49
bubbagump
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanni View Post


You just can't get it through your head or accept that regardless of how much oil is down there or what it is priced at and in, IF the energy required to extract is anywhere close to what is extracted, the energy fueled economy and population boom is done.





..................juanni
... and if pigs had wings they'd fly. But they don't, and it isn't. Won't be anytime soon either. If you have a point to this little canard of yours now would be the time to make it.
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Old March 13, 2018, 12:12   #50
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Simple economics. The price of oil will just fluctuate according to supply and demand, until there is no more to get.
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