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Old May 25, 2019, 18:51   #1
hueyville
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Purchasing Explosives

Been looking at the current regulations to acquire a Federal Explosives License. Seems pretty easy, actually easier than a Former 4 NFA item and about as difficult as a firearm. Recently ran across the box from last buy I made and kept as souviners. Was marked Super Light Armor Applique Plate Hercules Unigel dynamite and the blasting caps came in small yellow boxes with red writing and eachieve lead insulated with a foil tab. Cases weighed 50 pounds and measured about one foot by two feet.*

Here are local codes for puchase in the county. Most surrounding counties are worded very similar if need to blow some stumps or rock. The approved container for transport when show up at Austin Powder with permit is the crux.

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Purchase and Use of Explosives

To reduce the possibility of misuse of explosives and to provide an audit trail to follow if needed, the State of Georgia requires anyone who wishes to buy explosives to fill out an "Application for Permit to Purchase and Use Explosives," obtainable from the County Tax Commissioner's office.

Only purchase and transportation of up to 100 pounds of explosives is allowed; storage is not authorized. In addition, the requirements of Chapter 120-3-10 of the Georgia Safety Fire Regulations must be met.

Although the application is a one-page form, it has four copies besides the original. The name and address of the applicant, the kind and amount of explosives to be purchased (up to 100 pounds maximum), what it is to be used for and where, and a description of the vehicle to be used in the transport of the explosives are all noted on the form.

By*signing, the applicant makes a sworn oath that he/she is not a convicted criminal, is aware of the regulations regarding the purchase and transportation of explosives, etc. The applicant should be prepared to show identification and must submit to fingerprinting.

The Tax Commissioner's office then gives the original and first two copies to the applicant. Copy No. 4 is sent by the office to the State Fire Marshal, and copy No. 5 is retained by the Tax Commissioner. When the applicant goes to purchase the explosives, the vendor is required to note on the original and two copies the date, the amount and type of explosives that were sold, and the name of the person selling as well as the company. The vendor then sends the original to the State Fire Marshal and keeps copy No. 2 for at least three years. The purchaser must retain copy No. 3 until the explosives have been completely expended.
It's really that easy to buy 100 pounds for use on your property but it has to be used. Can't buy one hundred pounds, use fifty and put the other fifty in storage for later needs. I believe with the Federal License if build the correct "shack" can store till needed. We were blowing some stumps and busting some rock where we had a road going to the dam of our farm pond where it was off camber and scary to drive across without fear of rolling over. That was some time ago. Have researched and found on a personal use permit ten pounds is minimum and 100 pounds maximum.

None of the local codes say need the Federal Permit to buy inside thsee parameters if do not store long term. Am I missing something? Could easily buy 100 pounds, use half and hide the other but as mentioned in the past am not keen on going to prison. Tannerite and black powder can deliver quite a wallop as can acetylene. Making dynamite is not excessively difficult but home brew has a tendency to get very unstable with age.

Recently a friend found two cases in the trunk of an old car that belonged to his long dead grandfather. County was not upset at all about the dynamite but the bomb squad was really upset about its age and fact had melted into a couple of blobs with nitroglycerin puddles. Remember finding some old sweaty dynamite when a kid and we would gently wipe the sweat off with toilet paper squares. Would then place them a few feet away and shoot with pellet rifle and they would go "poof". A big enough bug landed on one before we shot it and it blew up the flying insect that had to stop for a rest. This stuff was decades old but not as old as what friend found.

For those of us that are serious about survival getting a Federal Permit and putting a couple cases back could be a nice addition to the preps. Here is what the ATF says is required for a permit, seems fairly straight forward.

Quote:
Who is eligible for a Federal explosives license or permit?

The Chief, Federal Explosives Licensing Center, will approve a properly completed application for a license or permit on ATF Form 5400.13/5400.16 if the applicant:

(a)*Is not a person prohibited from possessing or receiving explosive materials under 18 U.S.C. 842(i) and none of the applicant’s "responsible persons" are prohibited under section 842(1); (see also Question 4 in General Q&A);

(b)*Has not willfully violated any provision of Chapter 40 or the regulations in 27 CFR Part 555;

(c)*Has not knowingly withheld information or has not made any false or fictitious statement intended or likely to deceive, in connection with the application,

(d)*Has premises in a State from which he intends to conduct business or operations;

(e)*Has storage for the class (as described in 27 CFR 555.202) of explosive materials described on the application;

(f)*Has certified in writing that he is familiar with and understands all published State laws and local ordinances relating to explosive materials for the location in which he intends to do business;

(g)*Has submitted the certificate required by section 21 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act, as amended (33 U.S.C. 1341) [18 U.S.C. 843(b); 27 CFR 555.49(b)];

(h)*None of the applicant’s employees authorized to possess explosives are prohibited persons under 18 U.S.C. 842(i); and

(i)*In the case of an applicant for a limited permit, the applicant has certified that the applicant will not receive explosive materials on more than 6 occasions during the 12-month period for which the limited permit is valid.
Someone here has to already have a permit and uses enough to explain how lenient or rigid the rules are about storing. I believe a proper vented and RRI protected container for the blasting caps and last we purchased went in two vehicles. Moved the dynamite in a job box on a flat bed truck and blasting caps in a borrowed box in back of a standard pickup. Had to place the proper DOT placards on vehicles but have those.

Someone educate us as remember back in the 1980's was either Arizona or New Mexico we stopped in a hardware store to get some mantles for a Coleman lantern and saw a sign behind counter with prices for two part explosive mix (pour two cans togerther, stir, prime and boom), dynamite and blasting caps. Owner said prospectors and farmers bought it all the time and was happy to take our money but that was mid 1980's. If it's not overly difficult I believe most of us need at least a case put back for a rainy day.
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Old May 25, 2019, 20:46   #2
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I don't recall KY having a state permit for it. Maybe they do, but I can't think of it if they do.

As long as you have your fed permits from batf (E). And there is a site inspection.

Storage is as you describe though. Separate lock boxes for powder and caps or det cord or fuse or electronics (whatever method you're using to set it off with).

Lots of coal mines and limestone quarry's here, so it is often brought in by the delivery truck load.


here's the fed regs.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58741/download
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Old May 26, 2019, 05:44   #3
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Lots of marble quarries around the farm. Georgia Marble also gravel quarries around the house and work area everywhere. Actually worked in two quarries yesterday as had a shut down over the holiday weekend so contractors like me could get in and work while equipment was not moving and no explosions going on. Years back most quarries had basically outhouse to just larger than an outhouse size concrete block building where stored caps and details cord then according to how much and type of explosives might have a shipping container, retired road trailer or small building for explosives. Except for cameras on the initiator sheds and other contractors running around could have made off easily with the contents.

Have not been on Austin Powder site in well over a decade but last time pulled a permit and was on property they had dozens of old road trailers and shipping containers spread out over about 40 acres with no two trailers close to each other. At the time only security after hours was a security guard and a six foot fence. No way he could be everywhere though assume now it's much easier to monitor all their containers electronically. Seems like every site have been on where blasting is a daily event explosives are everywhere and stored in manner a sledge hammer or Sawzall would let someone through in matter of minutes.

We have tons of job sites running now and see an Austin Powder "HEET" marked truck that appears to be just a big container truck filled with ammonium nitrate or similar and goes from site to site after graders hit bedrock, holes are drilled and they fill all the holes then see one ton trucks with the caps running around driven by the crew that primes and blows the shots. If I am out moving from new developments during a day seems like I see trucks of explosives moving around commonly and casually. There are a lot of smaller one man or single crew operations running around and seems to be fairly easy to get in the business or as a farmer get a permit for explosives as need.

Not that I plan on building storage sheds in corner of yard and keeping a hundred pounds of explosives plus caps on the Ponderosa but have 160 acres on the farm and areas that only if told someone where had such stored nobody would have a clue. I was just hoping someone here was in the business and could clarify how much paperwork and government men are up your rear end with inspections if decided to license up and put enough back to make different jobs around the farm easier. Be nice to pop a big stump than spend two days clawing at it with the backhoe or paying someone to come in and grind it. Also would be nice not to have to pull a permit whenever a big tree falls or dies and has to be cut.

Right now have a couple dozen big stumps would like to be rid of now but know before got them all out the backhoe would end up having to be repaired a few times from busted hydraulic hoses and cylinders. Have used enough in the past, worked with a man who did it for a living (a local guy who opened a commercial bullet casting company for something to do when retired) that know respect mixed with a healthy dose of fear and explosives are stable till you decide to force the reaction to run. Wonder if get permitted how often to expect Federal Inspectors on site wanting to inspect storage and log books, etc. Can read all you want but nothing like first hand current knowledge from someone in the business.
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Old May 26, 2019, 06:27   #4
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Ive been out a few years now and delt mostly with DOD rather than batfe, but last I knew a 'shack' or trailer isent going to cut it.
Storage magazines can be 1/4 steel plate lined with 3" of hardwood or 8" poured concrete and seperate mags are required for explosives and dets.
DAY USE boxes are more like described, storage is a different animal.
Afaik, in IL, KY, or most places, your not buying anything without a state blasters license...
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Old May 26, 2019, 06:41   #5
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I used to have a job setting off dynamite. Observer on a portable seismic crew in Michigan back in the late 70's.
2.5 lbs per shot, ten 1/4 pound sticks every 150ft along the line. Some lines were up to four miles long. We shot alot of dynamite. Up around Rodgers city we used bubblegum because of the limestone.
Powder man on the crew had a magazine in the bed of his F250. Never did think about where the explosives were coming from or purchasing.

Edit: Now I remember the powder man had to go to a storage facility every morning to pick up the days charges. Then return the unused there every evening. I don't remember where it was, been some time now. A secure location not in town proper. Not sure what his routine was when we did overnights various places around the state.
We tried out some biodegradable dynamite for a short while once, no good after 6 months or something. The worry was unexploded charges left out in the field but I never saw or found any unexploded and don't think it was a problem. Michigan DNR guys would come behind us and walk our lines, I'm sure we would have heard about it if it had been a problem.
I don't remember where the caps were kept but on days I worked preload crew I would get one big bag of dynamite and one big bag of caps slung over my shoulders. Had a copper punch I made a hole in the end of the dynamite stick, grab a cap and tear the paper holding the cap leads together, insert the cap and ty it to the charge with the cap leads, toss it in a hole while stretching out the cap leads so they could be tyed together in a pattern. Someone behind me tied the charges together.Ten sticks in ten five foot deep 3" diameter holes all tied together so the shooters could run up to it, connect the blaster box and shoot the pattern. Was not supposed to be any craters left, no trace kinda thing but sometimes especially in the swamps a whole lotta sh*t would get blown up in the air and some big holes left behind.
My dad used dynamite on the farm when he was a kid, making ditches and other farm use things.
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Last edited by davedude; May 27, 2019 at 13:50.
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Old May 26, 2019, 06:44   #6
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The blasters license in KY is said to be a major math headache.
We sent 5 to Frankfurt for 3 days of classes and the testing, guys who already had IL licenses for years. 2 passed, the other 3 got duped by all the math figures.
Never seen it myself, but they say all the math for quanities and det delays for blasting rock is a major PITA.
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Old May 27, 2019, 19:22   #7
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Will check on the Blasters License part of the equation as more I look it seems buying is not difficult but at least one man on the site needs this certification in many states but not all. Many of us hillbilly Bible Belt states still allow farmers and the like to use on limited basis with minimum hassle. At work we have hired out professionals on three occasions because first my dad was scared of it (before he retired) and second, were in areas where a mistake could have been chatastropic.

I was on the site every minute the drillers, setters and blaster was. When dad hired rock blown for sign footings in a shopping or housing area I made sure from the fist guy who surveyed the site to guys who sifted the remnants I was up their @$$ asking questions. Every shot we paid for the crew covered the area with a series of nets made from steel cable to keep a rogue rock from launching a quater mile from the site.

True story. My uncle who ran our Marietta sign shop had heart trouble so was prone to going home for naps if stressed out or was a super hot day and got overheated. State D.O.T. was building a new bridge two miles driving and about 1.25 miles as a crow flies from his house. He was home taking a nap when got up to take a leak. While in bathroom heard a big crash and walked into bedroom to see hole in ceiling through upstairs floor, upstairs ceiling and roof. His bed was demolished and looked like had been shoved in a shredder with hole continuing through floor and ~250 pounds of busted rock laying on basement slab.

Uncle Buddy was a pastor who started churches out of his pocket, preached for free, paid the rent and once congregation was giving enough to pay it's bills and a preacher would help them find a permanent campus, often paying down payment on property/building himself. Then he would head a pulpit committee, hire a pastor and go looking for another area God led him to start a church. He started 27 churches in his life of which over a dozen still survive and four have developed into what's called a Mega-Church with thousands of members. He made tons of money, gave most away and when he died left his entire estate to drill wells in Africa in areas with no clean drinking water if locals allowed a church to be built and maintained near the well site. He invested well and 20 years after his death wells are still being drilled and churches planted. Guess he was paid up for the moment and God sent him to the porcelain throne right before the rock crashed through the bed he had been napping in.

He figured it out quickly and drove to the bridge site asking if they had been using explosives in past couple of hours. They said yes, he told them what happened to be told it was impossible as their methods of shooting each shot plus blast nets would not allow any rocks of any size to get loose. He asked them if wanted to come see with own eyes or have City Marshall come look and then come visit them. (Uncle Buddy was Chairman of the Cobb County Commission) They chose to come look and immediately knew they had meseed up bad. All he had to do was hire a slick lawyer, claim PTSD and unable to sleep which would cost them out the rear. He settled with them on the spot with a handshake. Had to fix his house back as was before they dropped the big rock though his roof plus drill one water well in poor area of Africa.

Have taken more dot gov tests than anyone I know. Have over three dozen OSHA certifications incuding General Commercial, Construction, HAZWOPPER, Overhead Lifting, etc, ham radio from Technician to Extra, Marine Radio Operators Permit, General Radiotelephone Operators Permit, Radar Endorsement, EPA 608 Universal Refrigerants (one of the hardest proctored exams exempt GROL with Radar) EPA 609 MVAC, Indoor Air Quality, Refrigerant Recovery, low pressure refrigerants, explosive environments electrical, low voltage, standard and commercial electrical and many more. Whenever can't sleep or back is hurting usually studying for next state or federal license. When started doing much of my truck service myself after trusted mechanic retired and looking for another got my ASE Service Consultant, ASE Auto Maintenance and Light Repair Certification Test (G1), Automobile & Light Truck (A1 – Engine Repair, A2 – Automatic Transmission/Transaxle, A3 – Manual Drive Train & Axles, A4 – Suspension & Steering, A5 – Brakes, A6 – Electrical/Electronic Systems, A7 – Heating & Air Conditioning, A8 – Engine Performance, A9 – Light Vehicle Diesel Engines), ASE Truck Equipment Certification Tests (E1 – E3), ASE Alternate Fuels Certification Test (F1) and have a list of more to study for and take.

Last thing I want is to have brakes fail, company truck run through a dozen kids at a bus stop and opposing civil court lawyer ask me what my qualifications are to fix brakes and say "my dad showed me" or "I watched a Utube video" can pile up all my ASE Certifications which are same as most dealer techs should have, all my DOT post trip inspection logs in writing every time a truck is moved dating back decades and on paper per proctored exams be more qualified than the service manager at the Dodge dealer. Same when we moved into cell towers and suddenly added a dozen OSHA certifications along with industry certifications like COMTRAIN. In Georgia a contractor can't own a shovel unless has taken the EPA Soil Erosion class and passed the test plus follows up with all continuing education and recertifications. I like standardized tests. Learned I was good at them in school when scored higher on the SAT than want to say as well as the ASVAB and others.

If it's a proctored standard test where study material and practice tests are available either in software package or online the math and other cap should be of no issue once review material and take practice exams till confident. Am currently studying for two more federal tests now. This is why have asked this question, want to be sure know all requirements before decide if want to fool with it and like many things, may want to get all the licenses even if never buy another spoon full of expolsives. I collect trade licenses like some collect coins or stamps. My mechanic who is a genius and knows more about fixing trucks and equipment than I ever will know says I am 10x more likely to get any job in the industry if we both applied because of all my pieces of paper that claim I know the job. Many I know forwards and backwards but many I just know the material required to pass the test.

Getting all the necessary paperwork and certifications dealt with seems like a good idea. Then as we get closer to what appears to be world going in the toilet can saunter into the blasting supply store and buy commercial grade super stable explosives rather than deal with home brew solutions while under the duress of zombies wandering, grid down, food rationing and protecting the Ponderosa. Could educate myself even more and convincing Uncle Sugar I have darn good need to purchase and store such items. This is what I like about America, just have to fill out the right forms, pay appropriate fees and a person can do about anything they want. If SHTF and zombies were wandering in packs it sure seems like having a few cases of commercial and/or military grade explosives plus det cord and caps close by would be a good thing. If a test is all that stands in the way have no worries about that, just study the material and take it. Have had to take a second try on only one test and was because didn't study for it, took on a whim and learned a few hous prep and most dot gov tests are designed that even most morons can get through if put in some effort.
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Old May 27, 2019, 19:36   #8
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I don't know what it's like anymore but the Oregon Cert for explosives used to be super easy. Apply through local Sheriff and issued through the State Fire Marshal. Had one for years and a good relationship with a local logging and mining supplier. Went in every payday and bought fun playthings, Dynamite, TNT booster, det-cord, etc. They knew I was just playing and shooting some stumps and shale for a friend. Good times, and some great reactive targets on the range. I dropped my licence after the OKC incident and they started cranking down on the stuff.
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Old May 27, 2019, 19:38   #9
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Old May 27, 2019, 19:40   #10
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As looking at online classes for Blasters License in some states and industries have to prove some on the job experience. Coal industry requires show some experience in past three years for acquiring their specific license. Am sure I can find some small outfit or one man operation that would not mind taking on a free non paid apprentice especially if knew person had no desire to become a competitor but just wanted a little experience so able to licence up for personal knowledge. Wonder if the feds look at folks taking blasting tests as hard as guys named Ayoob wanting to take flying lessons these days?

Looks like there is a huge difference in laws from state to state and industry to industry even in each state. Each answer I get leads me to another pile of questions to research. Have to filter through it all and then figure out path of least resistance to get what I would like to have for Georgia. Sure there is a way to wiggle between all the different requirements and target the easiest license to get to be able to buy and store a few commercial explosives with least effort.
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Old May 27, 2019, 19:46   #11
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Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
Found this interesting:
Quote:
Explosive materials are any chemical compound, mixture, or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion. The term includes, but is not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, black powder, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cord, igniter cord, and igniters.

Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use (e.g., making fireworks to set off on your own property or mixing binary explosive components to remove a stump in your own yard) are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit.
Sounds like a person has a lot of leeway if just playing around. Maybe why it's always been so easy to get a county permit to buy dynamite for blowing stumps. Have not done it in some time but have pulled permits several times (before we had terrorists) for stumps and Austin Powder not only seemed happy to sell all we wanted but also give us all the tips they thought we might need to use safely.
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Old June 01, 2019, 22:43   #12
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I was on the site every minute the drillers, setters and blaster was. When dad hired rock blown for sign footings in a shopping or housing area I made sure from the fist guy who surveyed the site to guys who sifted the remnants I was up their @$$ asking questions. Every shot we paid for the crew covered the area with a series of nets made from steel cable to keep a rogue rock from launching a quater mile from the site.
That brings back memories. Around Rodgers City limestone kept us from drilling holes for regular dynamite sticks. So the drill crew was supposed to use jackhammers with a big pin on them to make a small diameter hole for a charge in the limestone but we could never find those small holes for some reason (like they were not drilled in the first place) so we would just lay the bubblegum charges on the surface and sometimes under a rock. Yeah, we did that. So I learned patience. Long after all the rocks and tree branches have come down and it was seemingly safe to move sometimes a big one would startle everyone with a really late impact. Really! Late!
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Old June 11, 2019, 23:27   #13
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Binary explosives

One brand is Kine-Pak.

Finely powdered ANFO and nitromethane sensitizer.

Very much so like Tannerite in terms of usage, I don't think the yield difference is much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_forms_of_explosives

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Old June 13, 2019, 16:28   #14
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KinePak: INTRODUCTION
KinePak is a 2 part explosive that is not explosive until mixed. The two components can be transported and stored under the “Limited Quantity” designation – the components do not require magazine storage. When mixed, KinePak can be initiated with a Number 8* Detonator or 10 gram per metre Detonating Cord. The KinePak containers incorporate a recess for the Detonator or Detonating Cord. KinePak has been used for over 30 years in the United States.
PROPERTIES
When mixed, KinePak has a density of 1.20 grams / cubic centimeter, velocity of detonation (VOD) of 6,300 metres / second (20,700 feet per second) and a detonation pressure of 121 kiloBars.
APPLICATIONS
KinePak can be used for any application where a Detonator / Detonating Cord sensitive blasting explosive is required. KinePak can be used as a Booster, in agricultural blasting, demolition, explosive ordnance disposal (EOD) and oilfield abandonment. KinePak does come in rigid bottles so the correct sized hole will be required for some applications. KinePak can be used in plastic bags or as the “pouch” product for other geometries.
What Ifound intersting was Kinepak has basically the exact same REF by the Bureau of Mines as C-4.

Quote:
Kinepak*is the family name of various types of two-component high explosives manufactured by the Atlas Powder Company. Kinepak has a detonation velocity of 20,100 feet per second (fpsj, which is less than TNT. but the U.S. Bureau of Mines gave it a Relative Effectiveness Factor (REF) of 1.33—a third again as powerful as TNT. By way of comparison. C-4 has an REF of 1.34.

Kinepak is sold in two basic forms: Kinepouch and Kinestik. Kinepouch is a plastic-lined foil pouch or tube containing powdered ammonium nitrate (AN). It comes in 1/2-, 1-, 2-, and 4-pound sizes. Each pouch comes with a premeasured tube of nitromethane (NM) sensitizer. To use, simply open the pouch, pour in the NM, and wait five minutes. Prime with a No. fi blasting cap.

Kinestik consists of a hard plastic tube with screwtop and recessed cap well. It comes in 1/3- and 1-pound sizes comparable in size and shape to the common dynamite stick, and it also includes premeasured tubes of NM. It is activated and primed just like Kinepouch.
This may be the coolest stuff have seen in a while that is totally new technology for me and will be perfect on many job sites that in past were pains in the @$$. Make sure to watch video, drill holes, pour in Dexpan followed by water and in 24 hours your concrete or rock is busted into manageable chunks from the 18,000 PSI expansion rate.

https://www.dexpan.com/pages/how-to-...e-rocks-easily

Have three of the 44 pound buckets of Dexpan ordered (need a different mix according to temperature) and already discussing the purchase of both liquid and solid KinePak with a willing seller who is educating me on the advantages and disadvantages of each in different uses. Right now have a site where have to dig four footings for large signs requiring nine yards of concrete each and when went out to test dig each hole discovered a huge piece of 6" concrete slab with 18" footing running length of our hole on one and the other has a piece of granite occupying about 1/3 of area we need to dig.

Know putting men in the two holes with obstructions using jack hammers in June/July will be torture for them and run up a huge amount of time on the company clock to pay labor. Plan is to try both, see how well they do then order however much more company should have on hand for similar situations. There are virtually no restrictions other than common sense on storing binary explosives of this class in amount would like to have. Fairly sure the much more reactive, faster KinePak will be more useful in more circumstances but the Dexpan should be better in areas around buildings that are occuppied if it breaks concrete and rock as well as video shows.
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