Need Help in Vacaville/Scramento Area

[CaptainPhil]

So I just had a friend drop a polymer 80% lower in my lap. Cool! Time for my first AR project

Now I need to do the drilling and milling, but I have no drill press or milling vice and not too interested in buying them for just this project.

So, I am looking for someone in the Solano County, CA area that may be willing to let me have a little shop/garage time in return for beer or lunch. Should be a couple hours and no more.

Sacramento to San Francisco is the radius. If anyone out there would consider helping a fellow shooter out I would be very grateful.

Have a great day everyone.

[hueyville]

Second post to group asking someone to volunteer to use equipment and jigs to machine black gun parts in the last great communist nation on the planet? That is something I would jump right on if loony enough to live in southern Kali...

[2barearms]

The polymer 80s almost always come with a fixture.

[STG_58_guy]

I fail to understand why anyone would engage in such a project. If you want an untraceable firearm, buy one in a private sale. If private sales are not allowed in your AO, do what millions of felons do, and have your cousin or gf buy one on your behalf. If you can't find a receptive cousin or gf, buy one on theblack market.

Cutting your own seems like doing things the hard way, times 10, with inferior results.

Note, I do not condone violating the law, I am simply pointing out a fact.

[Jaxxas]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

I fail to understand why anyone would engage in such a project. If you want an untraceable firearm, buy one in a private sale. If private sales are not allowed in your AO, do what millions of felons do, and have your cousin or gf buy one on your behalf. If you can't find a receptive cousin or gf, buy one on theblack market.

Cutting your own seems like doing things the hard way, times 10, with inferior results.

Note, I do not condone violating the law, I am simply pointing out a fact.

No idea why people assume it's always about an untraceable firearm. Or that people who are interested are felons.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397460

I certainly don't think mine is an inferior product. There was no cost savings but it was a lot of fun, I learned a lot, it gets a bit of attention and I can say I almost made it myself. I'm certainly not a felon nor worried about untraceable firearms, my name has been through the system way too many times to even think such things. Some people just like making things which is an end to itself.

To the OP, it sounds like a fun project, I say go for it, I've heard some people have done them with a hand drill.

[michael_g927]

Seems like I read somewhere that our masters have opined that build parties where folks gather to share tools is now a felonious offense. You are not allowed to loan or share your tools with anyone lest ye be engaged in manufacturing firearms without blessing.
So the OP' makes his second post a request that might be frowned upon? And in what state?
HMMMMMMM.

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by michael_g927

Seems like I read somewhere that our masters have opined that build parties where folks gather to share tools is now a felonious offense. You are not allowed to loan or share your tools with anyone lest ye be engaged in manufacturing firearms without blessing.
So the OP' makes his second post a request that might be frowned upon? And in what state?
HMMMMMMM.

Yes build parties and letting general public are both trouble. Was an 80% company that sold absolute best lower ever saw. They had a van with a lathe and all jigs if a group purchased enough lowers would send the van and tech for the group and everyone left with nice lowers. ATF showed up at a build party, all went to the pokey then seized all the company computers, paper records, credit card info on buyers and equipment. Absolutely beautiful lowers with best milling jig ever put hands on for fair price. Of course I don't know anyone that bought any, just had opportunity to handle a half dozen or so before and after finishing.

Like solvent trap parts. Guy in NY state was buying AR lowers and solvent trap parts along with ammo online. ATF and state authorities showed up at his home with warrant to discover a few AR 15's along with piles of high capacity magazines, solvent traps turned suppressors, and stash of ammo. He will likely be doing time till I pass from this earth. I am not knocking people that like to build stuff. Bought an entire machine shop including tool room lathe and huge automatic surfacing machine. Things have gotten so goofy with ATF policy, State Department DDC/ITAR rules and such sold most of it as just don't need the worry. Cost to get a FFL, ITAR licensed, insurance and keep up with paperwork for a hobby wasn't worth it. Kept my mill and some other machine tools but most got sold at silly profit that will pay for a bunch of finished parts. Anyone that wants to finish lowers for the sake of it, great.

A new member that doesn't even introduce himself then make a few posts to get a little feel for the group, has no Marketplace transaction record who lives in Kali"fornication" whose first post is asking for FAL work done in South Kali and second to use someone's equipment in Kali to finish 80% lowers seems like a troll at best and narc at worst. Not that all narcs are bad, don't like people selling dope to middle school kids but this guy reeks. It is too easy to do it legally if your really interested. Sears sells a table top drill press for under $200 that will hog out a lower. $500 will buy a pretty nice free standing drill press or used mill. Anyone that wants to be a hobbyist needs to buy enough tools to get started.

Loaning a tool that a man may use one time in his life is fine. Have loaned and borrowed tools from members. Right now have my spare reaction rod, combination AR wrench and a inch/pound torque wrench out on loan and a tap for threading lower for buffer tubes borrowed. Imagine a guy needing to tap the rear lug and doesn't buy 80% lowers. They are already tapped but have seen some paperweights that needed threads on occasion.

Ultimate hobbyist lower project. This will hone a lot of skills and give the stiffest and strongest lower a man might ever own if done correctly.

[shooters sight]

Originally Posted by hueyville

A new member that doesn't even introduce himself then make a few posts to get a little feel for the group, has no Marketplace transaction record who lives in Kali"fornication" whose first post is asking for FAL work done in South Kali and second to use someone's equipment in Kali to finish 80% lowers seems like a troll at best and narc at worst. Not that all narcs are bad, don't like people selling dope to middle school kids but this guy reeks. It is too easy to do it legally if your really interested. Sears sells a table top drill press for under $200 that will hog out a lower. $500 will buy a pretty nice free standing drill press or used mill. Anyone that wants to be a hobbyist needs to buy enough tools to get started.

I totally agree to what hueyville posted, no introduction and asking to use tools is very suspicious. I'm not saying that OP is dishonest in anyway, but in this state we need to be very careful. We don't want any forum member get in trouble for being generous in providing tools.

OP, you can stop by harbor freight for less expensive tools or your local pawn shop they usually have the tools you need to finish that 80%.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll enjoy building that lower. It's a rewarding feeling when it's done.

[AFeod]

I had an 80% poly lower given to me as a gift. It came w/ the one time use fixture and the drill bits and end mill bits to do all the work. I already had an multi axis vise, yet still did it on a mill as opposed to a drill press. Harbor Frieght has the vise you need for around $30. And yes "build parties" or using equipment that's not yours is a big slap on the pee pee. That being said I may have an extra set of the bits needed I would sell you cheap. But maybe in future posts a little tact goes a long way

[djfin]

Originally Posted by shooters sight

I totally agree to what hueyville posted, no introduction and asking to use tools is very suspicious. I'm not saying that OP is dishonest in anyway, but in this state we need to be very careful. We don't want any forum member get in trouble for being generous in providing tools.

OP, you can stop by harbor freight for less expensive tools or your local pawn shop they usually have the tools you need to finish that 80%.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll enjoy building that lower. It's a rewarding feeling when it's done.

You are both off the deep end. First the OP has a 2013 join date not real new to me. Second hueyville's comments are comparing apples and oranges. Selling incomplete receivers and then sending a mobile machine shop to the buyers house is one thing. Loaning tools for free for a one time project is a completely different thing. If I had the jig I would have no problem loaning it out as it is completely legal to do so in in California. If you think otherwise show me any law on the books that makes it illegal. A law not your opinion.

[SAFN49]

Wasn't the ATF opinion that lending time on machine tools made a person a manufacturer? I thought that was what they said a couple/few years ago when the CA thing happened. IIRC the unfinished AR15 lowers owners were also taking them to a machine shop, the owner of the shop was setting them in his CNC mill, and 20 min later the owner of the lower walked out with a finished unmarked firearm receiver.

Lending a jig or bits for someone to do at home was not covered.
I think that opinion also covered lending your milling machine in your shop to someone else. It was all about machine time.

[AFeod]

Without a vote from Congress, ATFE Director, B. Todd Jones, released the following ruling, which makes it illegal for a machine shop to rent or loan their equipment to a private individual so that individual may complete an 80% receiver. It is also illegal for a private individual to complete an 80% in their friend or neighbor’s garage using using the friend’s equipment. Essentially this means the only way to complete an 80% lower is to buy your own equipment (jig, drill press, drill bits, or CNC machine, etc.) and finish it in your own home.http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...unsmithing.pdf

[michael_g927]

If we look at the situation, it is a far stretch for our masters to be able to say what one can do with one's own possessions.
BUT... it has obviously happened. So where does this end? Take a step, take a mile.
Moral of the story is, "The truth is what they say it is". They also reserve the "right" change "opinios" are any time to suit there needs. All without congressional vote and yet somehow it carries weight of law.
Certain agencies that are redundant to local and state counterparts are uneasy about loosing their funding and jobs. So suddenly they are ready to renegotiate 16 topics.
Times are changin. There's a new sheriff in town boys! Getting the popcorn ready.

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by djfin

You are both off the deep end. First the OP has a 2013 join date not real new to me. Second hueyville's comments are comparing apples and oranges. Selling incomplete receivers and then sending a mobile machine shop to the buyers house is one thing. Loaning tools for free for a one time project is a completely different thing. If I had the jig I would have no problem loaning it out as it is completely legal to do so in in California. If you think otherwise show me any law on the books that makes it illegal. A law not your opinion.

Two posts seems new to me. Not apples and oranges, it's protecting your @$$ in the most litidgious society of history. One time is just as illegal as two as three as twelve. The ATF opinion linked by AFeod along with the wording of the DDTC/ITAR document here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...fjqu95VH9pwjuA

And throw in Obama executive order from Jan 2016 and we're pretty much at stalemate when comes to loaning equipment for "further processing", finishing, or anything more than a wrench. An action wrench, reaction rod or anything that doesn't alter a parts dimensions, adds holes, threads or such is likely not going to raise any eyebrows. That said, total stranger will stop and help if broke down on side of road but wouldn't dare let them use my mill and jigs for a fire arms project. I hate it as before all these rulings more parts were done on my machines by others than me. Had a couple guys would have stuff of mine waiting for when they showed to do for me as better machinists than I am. Reverse the ATF ruling linked and the DDTC/ITAR then my place will be open for anyone to make metal shavings fly.

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by Jaxxas

No idea why people assume it's always about an untraceable firearm. Or that people who are interested are felons.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397460

I certainly don't think mine is an inferior product. There was no cost savings but it was a lot of fun, I learned a lot, it gets a bit of attention and I can say I almost made it myself. I'm certainly not a felon nor worried about untraceable firearms, my name has been through the system way too many times to even think such things. Some people just like making things which is an end to itself.

To the OP, it sounds like a fun project, I say go for it, I've heard some people have done them with a hand drill.

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer anyone was a felon or that felons are interested in 80% lowers. In fact, I suspect they aren't, since they can acquire firearms much easier in the way I dedcribed.

I also understand the joy of building your own. I roll my own.

But I am interested in owning firearms that are off paper. I have a CC and have filled out my share of 4473s. But dot.gov doesn't need to know about all the firearms I've legally collected. With decent $89 lowers readily available, I assumed that was the point.

Really, no offense intended.

[Captain Phil]

Originally Posted by shooters sight

I totally agree to what hueyville posted, no introduction and asking to use tools is very suspicious. I'm not saying that OP is dishonest in anyway, but in this state we need to be very careful. We don't want any forum member get in trouble for being generous in providing tools.

OP, you can stop by harbor freight for less expensive tools or your local pawn shop they usually have the tools you need to finish that 80%.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll enjoy building that lower. It's a rewarding feeling when it's done.

Suspicious???

Hmmmm. Isn't getting help to build a rifle what this place is about? I build a FAL with the help I got on the other board, very happy with it, and was looking to take advantage of a freebie.

I simply asked for a little shop time for beer or whatever. Never asked anyone to do anything that would get them in trouble for anything.

It's a project that dropped in my lap. Always wanted to build one, and now have the excuse.

It has it's own jig and all instructions/videos. Seems very straight forward. Nothing to do with an "untraceable rifle" but everything to do with building a rifle.

Apparently I started something unintended.

However, if anyone would be able to help, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Captain Phil]

Originally Posted by AFeod

I had an 80% poly lower given to me as a gift. It came w/ the one time use fixture and the drill bits and end mill bits to do all the work. I already had an multi axis vise, yet still did it on a mill as opposed to a drill press. Harbor Frieght has the vise you need for around $30. And yes "build parties" or using equipment that's not yours is a big slap on the pee pee. That being said I may have an extra set of the bits needed I would sell you cheap. But maybe in future posts a little tact goes a long way

Asking for help is a "no-no"?? Odd. I have helped a few people that asked for help. Used my tools at the time to help them build an AK. Passing on knowledge and helping others. Seems the right thing to do as it is how I learned.

Tack? Hmmm. I see nothing rude about asking for shop time. If that is how it is looked upon here. so be it. No insult meant to anyone.

[AFeod]

Sorry to offend... but the fact remains that you asked for something that (even though really stupid) is illegal. I don't make nor agree w/ a lot of laws. I was posting the atf stuff because someone asked for law not opinions. Like I said I may have a set of bits (drill and high speed end mill) I'll let you "buy" for the price to ship them to you. It's a fun process and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Let me know if you're interested in my offer. Hopefully I still have them I'll check the shop tomorrow. Cheers

[Captain Phil]

Originally Posted by AFeod

Sorry to offend... but the fact remains that you asked for something that (even though really stupid) is illegal. I don't make nor agree w/ a lot of laws. I was posting the atf stuff because someone asked for law not opinions. Like I said I may have a set of bits (drill and high speed end mill) I'll let you "buy" for the price to ship them to you. It's a fun process and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Let me know if you're interested in my offer. Hopefully I still have them I'll check the shop tomorrow. Cheers

No offense taken. When I built my FAL and 3 AK's we did it this way. Not sure if rules have changed or if we just "did it wrong" but my understanding is that as long as I do the work it is legal, regardless of whether I own the tools or not.

In short, no worries.

[AFeod]

Originally Posted by Captain Phil

No offense taken. When I built my FAL and 3 AK's we did it this way. Not sure if rules have changed or if we just "did it wrong" but my understanding is that as long as I do the work it is legal, regardless of whether I own the tools or not.

In short, no worries.

Cool...
the bummer thing is... yes, rules have changed(unfortunately)

[Jaxxas]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer anyone was a felon or that felons are interested in 80% lowers. In fact, I suspect they aren't, since they can acquire firearms much easier in the way I dedcribed.

I also understand the joy of building your own. I roll my own.

But I am interested in owning firearms that are off paper. I have a CC and have filled out my share of 4473s. But dot.gov doesn't need to know about all the firearms I've legally collected. With decent $89 lowers readily available, I assumed that was the point.

Really, no offense intended.

None taken!

[Jaxxas]

Originally Posted by Captain Phil

Asking for help is a "no-no"?? Odd. I have helped a few people that asked for help. Used my tools at the time to help them build an AK. Passing on knowledge and helping others. Seems the right thing to do as it is how I learned.

Tack? Hmmm. I see nothing rude about asking for shop time. If that is how it is looked upon here. so be it. No insult meant to anyone.

So I just noticed there are 2 Captain Phil posters with markedly different history, CaptainPhil and Captain Phil, presumably the same people? Not some newby looking to scam on people as 'previously' suggested!? lol

I don't think asking for help is a no no. And I don't think loaning tools is a no no either. I've read all 'their' rules and I think they mainly apply to businesses. No where does it say an individual can't loan their tools. Helping out a guy here or there is one thing, holding build parties and building en mass is another. Getting paid to help build a firearm would certainly be crossing the line for me. I suggest that you do your own due diligence, read the rules make your own decision.

[Captain Phil]

Originally Posted by Jaxxas

So I just noticed there are 2 Captain Phil posters with markedly different history, CaptainPhil and Captain Phil, presumably the same people? Not some newby looking to scam on people as 'previously' suggested!? lol

I don't think asking for help is a no no. And I don't think loaning tools is a no no either. I've read all 'their' rules and I think they mainly apply to businesses. No where does it say an individual can't loan their tools. Helping out a guy here or there is one thing, holding build parties and building en mass is another. Getting paid to help build a firearm would certainly be crossing the line for me. I suggest that you do your own due diligence, read the rules make your own decision.

Not terribly surprising. I was around a lot a few years back, but haven't done much since I finished my FAL and then just decided to shoot it for a while.

I appreciate all the information. Living in the PRK (Peoples' Rebublic of Kalifornia) the rules seem to be changing on a weekly basis.

I will find a way to get this done, well, because who doesn't need a new project or new rifle?

Goal is as cheap as possible for the first one, just for the experience and to learn the platform. After, if I fall in love (like THAT isn't going to happen) I'll then do up a good one.

Have a good day all.

[djfin]

Originally Posted by hueyville

Two posts seems new to me. Not apples and oranges, it's protecting your @$$ in the most litidgious society of history. One time is just as illegal as two as three as twelve. The ATF opinion linked by AFeod along with the wording of the DDTC/ITAR document here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...fjqu95VH9pwjuA

And throw in Obama executive order from Jan 2016 and we're pretty much at stalemate when comes to loaning equipment for "further processing", finishing, or anything more than a wrench. An action wrench, reaction rod or anything that doesn't alter a parts dimensions, adds holes, threads or such is likely not going to raise any eyebrows. That said, total stranger will stop and help if broke down on side of road but wouldn't dare let them use my mill and jigs for a fire arms project. I hate it as before all these rulings more parts were done on my machines by others than me. Had a couple guys would have stuff of mine waiting for when they showed to do for me as better machinists than I am. Reverse the ATF ruling linked and the DDTC/ITAR then my place will be open for anyone to make metal shavings fly.

As the OP has been a member here longer than you your "new guy" comment is very funny. As for the number posts made by the OP BIG DEAL. Some people have more important things to do than sit around on the computer. With all the businesses and projects that you have it is surprising that you have the time to post as much as you do. After reading the ruling for the posted link I have this section for you to read


Any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA); identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records. A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery or equipment. ATF Ruling 2010-10 is hereby

Clearly states "In the business" and explains in detail. If I let anyone come to my house and use my drill press to finish a receiver it would be legal as my personal property and house are not "In the business" as defined in this ruling.

[djfin]

Originally Posted by AFeod

Sorry to offend... but the fact remains that you asked for something that (even though really stupid) is illegal. I don't make nor agree w/ a lot of laws. I was posting the atf stuff because someone asked for law not opinions. Like I said I may have a set of bits (drill and high speed end mill) I'll let you "buy" for the price to ship them to you. It's a fun process and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Let me know if you're interested in my offer. Hopefully I still have them I'll check the shop tomorrow. Cheers

As the link posted clearly states IN THE BUSINESS you are mistaken. Two private parties getting together to do a build is not illegal per your link. Going to a machine shop that is in the business would be illegal according to your link. This is the law according to your link

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by djfin

As the OP has been a member here longer than you your "new guy" comment is very funny. As for the number posts made by the OP BIG DEAL. Some people have more important things to do than sit around on the computer. With all the businesses and projects that you have it is surprising that you have the time to post as much as you do. After reading the ruling for the posted link I have this section for you to read

Clearly states "In the business" and explains in detail. If I let anyone come to my house and use my drill press to finish a receiver it would be legal as my personal property and house are not "In the business" as defined in this ruling.

If you look at Obama's executive order from Jan 2016 it states the sale of as few as one or two firearms could constitute being in the business and FFL required if "other criteria" are met without defining term other criteria. What if BATFE says sale of one or two guns and helping someone do gunsmithing constitute "other criteria". Opting out on becoming a test case to get run up through the court system.

How was I to know O.P. has a second account. Believe having multiple accounts has gotten others in a lurch around here. Had O.P. posted from 2006 account with over 300 posts would have replied much differently. Still would have recomended buying a tabletop drill press and inexpensive jig. Lots of people run businesses out of their houses and garage. With the huge amount of BATFE and DDTC/ITAR rulings without being sure how many executive orders Obama passed in last week's and days in office consider it wise for anyone to be careful. I admitted to having tools loaned out and borrowed. Tap I have on loan could be for anything, just a size not in any of my sets. Torque wrench is just a torque wrench but reaction rod and AR combo wrench are gunsmithing tools. Loaned to someone have met FTF and communicated with often. A two post account where only posts asked for help building in Kali is much different than 11 year old account with hundreds of posts. I am confused as to why the extra account as it causes confusion.

[2barearms]

Originally Posted by Captain Phil

Not terribly surprising. I was around a lot a few years back, but haven't done much since I finished my FAL and then just decided to shoot it for a while.

I appreciate all the information. Living in the PRK (Peoples' Rebublic of Kalifornia) the rules seem to be changing on a weekly basis.

I will find a way to get this done, well, because who doesn't need a new project or new rifle?

Goal is as cheap as possible for the first one, just for the experience and to learn the platform. After, if I fall in love (like THAT isn't going to happen) I'll then do up a good one.

Have a good day all.

Phil

You might want to avoid posting with both user names in the same thread......
Ijs

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by djfin

As for the number posts made by the OP BIG DEAL. Some people have more important things to do than sit around on the computer. With all the businesses and projects that you have it is surprising that you have the time to post as much as you do.

Sleep an average of 1.5 to 3 hours per nigh, all I need. During day have a lot of time waiting on clients, inspectors, etc while out in the field. Sitting on hold with network reliability center waiting to log into or out of a site can take time. Too easy to pick up tablet rather than stare blindly into space.

[Jaxxas]

Originally Posted by hueyville

If you look at Obama's executive order from Jan 2016 it states the sale of as few as one or two firearms could constitute being in the business and FFL required if "other criteria" are met without defining term other criteria. What if BATFE says sale of one or two guns and helping someone do gunsmithing constitute "other criteria". Opting out on becoming a test case to get run up through the court system.

I read the 'law', I'm confident in my interpretation. And I know right from wrong. I'm not going to live my life paying $10 grand a pop to a lawyer trying to figure out if it's safe for me to fart every time a new law comes out. Life is too short to live in fear.

Originally Posted by hueyville

Sleep an average of 1.5 to 3 hours per nigh, all I need.

If nothing else this may help explain your disjointed posts!

[AFeod]

Originally Posted by djfin

As the link posted clearly states IN THE BUSINESS you are mistaken. Two private parties getting together to do a build is not illegal per your link. Going to a machine shop that is in the business would be illegal according to your link. This is the law according to your link

I stand corrected... my offer still stands to the OP, iffin' you want the bits, cover the shipping and you can have them...

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by Jaxxas

I read the 'law', I'm confident in my interpretation. And I know right from wrong. I'm not going to live my life paying $10 grand a pop to a lawyer trying to figure out if it's safe for me to fart every time a new law comes out. Life is too short to live in fear.

If nothing else this may help explain your disjointed posts!

It's a firearms discussion group, not a grammar nazi group for high school English teachers. I don't pay lawyers to render an opinion on passing gas either and don't live in fear but do take some common sense effort to avoid litigation. At work keep all my OSHA, EPA and other such departments continuing education requirements met and have a service that sends me all the major rule changes each year to do my best to stay in compliance. Was discussing today with another businessman how many local businesses have been hurt bad or bankrupted by OSHA and similar fines.

Here in Georgia anytime you dig a hole , yes to put up a mailbox or birdhouse for wife, must call the Utilities Protection Agency to have site marked for underground utilities. Local homeowner paid a $5,000 fine and $7,000 in repairs when decided to use auger on tractor to dig hole for his mailbox. When lifted bit out of hole most of the fiber optic bundle branches going to the Cumming A,T&T switch was wound around it. Every site we disturb the soil requires a utilities locate request. Also if business owns and operates a shovel must have EPA Soil Erosion Certificate which is renewed every two years.

Large local contractor with over 100 employees had four commercial buildings under construction picked up some Hispanic day laborers to help finish a job, didn't put on books for workers comp, fill out I9's then one fell off a ladder and died. By the time OSHA, IRS and rest finished he lost business, home, boats, planes and works at Home Depot now.

October 31*[Region 3 News Brief]*-2016 - 10/31/2016 - OSHA inspection finds Dollar General in Jonestown blocked emergency exit again, proposes $215K penalty

$215,000 penalty for a blocked door, June 2016 all OSHA fines raised to adjust for inflation but Nobama's Fed Reserve said no inflation in reports in that time period. Have not seen figures yet but is a business is missing a single MSDS Sheet it's a $47,500 fine. We deal with a lot of paint. A quart of white Porter Acrishield has a different MSDS than a gallon. A five gallon has different MSDS than gallon. Black Acrishield is different than white, grey is different also due to different pigment load. Have locker of automotive paint, another of lacquer printing inks, another with enamel printing inks. Some quarts, some gallons plus thinners and reducers. My small 5,000 square foot business had over 22,000 MSDS sheets on file last I counted. If go to store and buy item that is different brand than normal or color, download MSDS and save to hard drive before unload from truck and bring in building. Even have to keep sheets on masking tape, duct tape and more.

Think I am paranoid? Check this out...

https://www.osha.gov/penalties/

Check this link and scroll back a year or two counting number of fines per day and amounts. It is staggering. OSHA doesn't write fines, have no budget or paychecks.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...=0&p_keyvalue=

$12,675 in fines when show up most places with $126,749 if a repeat offense.

Was working at a clients site last fall. Half a dozen contractors on site. OSHA guy walks up asks if job supervisor and replied yes, asked me for OSHA 30 hour card, presented, asked for fall protection card and plan (using ladders and if six feet above ground better have it.), pulled card out of truck and plan off clipboard and handed it to him and on this went for 20 minutes. He left and EPA inspector hit me asking about chemicals, had all I needed he moved on. When returned to shop DOT was there asking for post trip inspection logs. Every company truck is supposed to be inspected at end of day if used and written record. Produced books for every truck on property.

Company I was subcontracting for (Under 100 employees) has six full time OSHA and EPA compliance persons on staff. Five other contractors on site fined for stuff like no fall protection equipment or plan, guy was using 8' ladder to fix an air leak in compressor line. Main company was fined because someone had thrown a two gallon bucket of soapy water in corner of truck lot for "unmarked slipping hazard". God forbid they catch me with over 400 pounds of NiCad batteries on the truck, that's a big one. Takes 450 to 480 pounds to work an average site.

So yes, I do consult my tax lawyer and CPA in February of every year to make sure follow the rules. Got audited six times in 2016. Five came out squeaky clean, the Depth of Labor fined me $500 for not having time cards from time I officially took over business from father. Thought they were like financials, keep seven years and pitch. Nope, time cards are like 4473's, must keep from day one till close your doors. Keeping up with I-9's, withholding records, permits (recently had to pull a hard copy from 1988 because of complaint sign non conforming to current codes and city had no record of permit). Not only did I have permit but still had my hard copy of local codes from applicable year. Now download codes in Jauary and July every year to keep up with changes in case city or county loses 20 years for now.

Every month have ST-3 sales tax report, DOL-2, DOL-4 and more. Then have quarterlys and end of year inventory of every nut, bolt, screw, nail, tools and have to rectify anything lost or stolen on list. So yes I will do my best to follow the rules. Do I live in fear, heck no. Just follow the rules. In past twenty years been audited buy over ten state or federal groups at least 50 total times and only had the one time card issue. Have the best CPA and tax lawyer can find locally. This doesn't count Fire Marshal inspections, job site inspections and such; so yes, there are rules and if want to succeed for 67 years as we have do your best to follow them. Same with gun legislation just even though it's a hobby not a profession. Like to avoid trouble.

This year my business license hit $500 bucks. Inventory taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, road taxes, tags, other licenses, corporate registrations and it does take a team of lawyers to keep a small mom & pop shop up and running. If run a business and don't get sound legal advice on regular bases along with code and regulatory training just one time the wrong agency walks in and requests records and you are done. Luckily I get treated pretty soft as been doing this since 1985 though didn't take over as sole owner till 24 years ago.

[2barearms]

Originally Posted by hueyville

It's a firearms discussion group, not a grammar nazi group for high school English teachers. I don't pay lawyers to render an opinion on passing gas either and don't live in fear but do take some common sense effort to avoid litigation. At work keep all my OSHA, EPA and other such departments continuing education requirements met and have a service that sends me all the major rule changes each year to do my best to stay in compliance. Was discussing today with another businessman how many local businesses have been hurt bad or bankrupted by OSHA and similar fines.

Here in Georgia anytime you dig a hole , yes to put up a mailbox or birdhouse for wife, must call the Utilities Protection Agency to have site marked for underground utilities. Local homeowner paid a $5,000 fine and $7,000 in repairs when decided to use auger on tractor to dig hole for his mailbox. When lifted bit out of hole most of the fiber optic bundle branches going to the Cumming A,T&T switch was wound around it. Every site we disturb the soil requires a utilities locate request. Also if business owns and operates a shovel must have EPA Soil Erosion Certificate which is renewed every two years.

Large local contractor with over 100 employees had four commercial buildings under construction picked up some Hispanic day laborers to help finish a job, didn't put on books for workers comp, fill out I9's then one fell off a ladder and died. By the time OSHA, IRS and rest finished he lost business, home, boats, planes and works at Home Depot now.



$215,000 penalty for a blocked door, June 2016 all OSHA fines raised to adjust for inflation but Nobama's Fed Reserve said no inflation in reports in that time period. Have not seen figures yet but is a business is missing a single MSDS Sheet it's a $47,500 fine. We deal with a lot of paint. A quart of white Porter Acrishield has a different MSDS than a gallon. A five gallon has different MSDS than gallon. Black Acrishield is different than white, grey is different also due to different pigment load. Have locker of automotive paint, another of lacquer printing inks, another with enamel printing inks. Some quarts, some gallons plus thinners and reducers. My small 5,000 square foot business had over 22,000 MSDS sheets on file last I counted. If go to store and buy item that is different brand than normal or color, download MSDS and save to hard drive before unload from truck and bring in building. Even have to keep sheets on masking tape, duct tape and more.

Think I am paranoid? Check this out...

https://www.osha.gov/penalties/

Check this link and scroll back a year or two counting number of fines per day and amounts. It is staggering. OSHA doesn't write fines, have no budget or paychecks.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...=0&p_keyvalue=

$12,675 in fines when show up most places with $126,749 if a repeat offense.

Was working at a clients site last fall. Half a dozen contractors on site. OSHA guy walks up asks if job supervisor and replied yes, asked me for OSHA 30 hour card, presented, asked for fall protection card and plan (using ladders and if six feet above ground better have it.), pulled card out of truck and plan off clipboard and handed it to him and on this went for 20 minutes. He left and EPA inspector hit me asking about chemicals, had all I needed he moved on. When returned to shop DOT was there asking for post trip inspection logs. Every company truck is supposed to be inspected at end of day if used and written record. Produced books for every truck on property.

Company I was subcontracting for (Under 100 employees) has six full time OSHA and EPA compliance persons on staff. Five other contractors on site fined for stuff like no fall protection equipment or plan, guy was using 8' ladder to fix an air leak in compressor line. Main company was fined because someone had thrown a two gallon bucket of soapy water in corner of truck lot for "unmarked slipping hazard". God forbid they catch me with over 400 pounds of NiCad batteries on the truck, that's a big one. Takes 450 to 480 pounds to work an average site.

So yes, I do consult my tax lawyer and CPA in February of every year to make sure follow the rules. Got audited six times in 2016. Five came out squeaky clean, the Depth of Labor fined me $500 for not having time cards from time I officially took over business from father. Thought they were like financials, keep seven years and pitch. Nope, time cards are like 4473's, must keep from day one till close your doors. Keeping up with I-9's, withholding records, permits (recently had to pull a hard copy from 1988 because of complaint sign non conforming to current codes and city had no record of permit). Not only did I have permit but still had my hard copy of local codes from applicable year. Now download codes in Jauary and July every year to keep up with changes in case city or county loses 20 years for now.

Every month have ST-3 sales tax report, DOL-2, DOL-4 and more. Then have quarterlys and end of year inventory of every nut, bolt, screw, nail, tools and have to rectify anything lost or stolen on list. So yes I will do my best to follow the rules. Do I live in fear, heck no. Just follow the rules. In past twenty years been audited buy over ten state or federal groups at least 50 total times and only had the one time card issue. Have the best CPA and tax lawyer can find locally. This doesn't count Fire Marshal inspections, job site inspections and such; so yes, there are rules and if want to succeed for 67 years as we have do your best to follow them. Same with gun legislation just even though it's a hobby not a profession. Like to avoid trouble.

This year my business license hit $500 bucks. Inventory taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, road taxes, tags, other licenses, corporate registrations and it does take a team of lawyers to keep a small mom & pop shop up and running. If run a business and don't get sound legal advice on regular bases along with code and regulatory training just one time the wrong agency walks in and requests records and you are done. Luckily I get treated pretty soft as been doing this since 1985 though didn't take over as sole owner till 24 years ago.

I thought you were disabled? Bad back and all sorts of other stuff and you still
do jobsite labor?

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by 2barearms

I thought you were disabled? Bad back and all sorts of other stuff and you still
do jobsite labor?

C2 and C3 broken in neck, T6 broken in thoracic, L1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and S1 trashed. Brain cancer (pituitary) three times, cerebral venous thrombosis, left leg made of titanium from knee down and go to work 3 to 6.5 days per week. Had a 35 year old former Marine and lead climber on tower crew quit after three days said I work too hard. (told him he had to at least keep up with me if wanted a raise) Waiting on client to pick up some stuff then have five field locations to do after lunch in three counties. Worked through chemo and radiation, worked in casts, was at work 10 days after released from 14.5 hours on table getting leg rebuilt. Have outpatient Monday and will take Tuesday off and be at work Wednesday. Wife is disabled, she worked five years after doctor told her to quit. I will work until dead in some fashion even if just go in and work from wheelchair.

[djfin]

Originally Posted by hueyville

If you look at Obama's executive order from Jan 2016 it states the sale of as few as one or two firearms could constitute being in the business and FFL required if "other criteria" are met without defining term other criteria. What if BATFE says sale of one or two guns and helping someone do gunsmithing constitute "other criteria". Opting out on becoming a test case to get run up through the court system.

How was I to know O.P. has a second account. Believe having multiple accounts has gotten others in a lurch around here. Had O.P. posted from 2006 account with over 300 posts would have replied much differently. Still would have recomended buying a tabletop drill press and inexpensive jig. Lots of people run businesses out of their houses and garage. With the huge amount of BATFE and DDTC/ITAR rulings without being sure how many executive orders Obama passed in last week's and days in office consider it wise for anyone to be careful. I admitted to having tools loaned out and borrowed. Tap I have on loan could be for anything, just a size not in any of my sets. Torque wrench is just a torque wrench but reaction rod and AR combo wrench are gunsmithing tools. Loaned to someone have met FTF and communicated with often. A two post account where only posts asked for help building in Kali is much different than 11 year old account with hundreds of posts. I am confused as to why the extra account as it causes confusion.

As both of the accounts have a join date older than yours your new guy crap is just that crap. Next your quote
"the sale of as few as one or two firearms could constitute being in the business and FFL required if "other criteria" are met without defining term other criteria. What if BATFE says sale of one or two guns and helping someone do gunsmithing constitute "other criteria". Opting out on becoming a test case to get run up through the court system"
Guess what the word sale means SALE period. And that does not allow the ATF to outlaw to private parties helping each other to build a firearm where no sale is involved. This makes your example seem very silly. The words "what if" are way over used by people afraid of everything as an excuse do nothing. As stated above your 1.5 to 3 hours of sleep per day claim explains a lot. Your posts are confusing at best and pure crap at worst. Are you on disability or are you doing service work?? You have claimed both but that would not be legal would it. Please explain. FYI the medical experts in this field state that adults require a minimum of 5 to 9 hours per night to function normally and 7 to 9 hours is recommended.

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by djfin

As both of the accounts have a join date older than yours your new guy crap is just that crap. (trim) As stated above your 1.5 to 3 hours of sleep per day claim explains a lot. Your posts are confusing at best and pure crap at worst. Are you on disability or are you doing service work?? You have claimed both but that would not be legal would it. Please explain. FYI the medical experts in this field state that adults require a minimum of 5 to 9 hours per night to function normally and 7 to 9 hours is recommended.

First issue is my post did not say "new guy" it said "second post to group". Without clarification could not know someone was using two accounts which am under impression is frowned upon. That is as confusing as is your lack of reading comprehension. Yes, it was a tad sarcastic but didn't say anything disrespectful. See my quote below.

Originally Posted by hueyville

Second post to group asking someone to volunteer to use equipment and jigs to machine black gun parts in the last great communist nation on the planet? That is something I would jump right on if loony enough to live in southern Kali...

My wife is disabled but I have been working since age 14 and continue to. I do miss days due to medical reasons or on occasion just have something else would rather do. Have missed long periods of time in the past. So yes, have several ongoing medical issues. No, am not disabled and continue to work as enjoy it and my facility needs to earn enough to pay the overhead. Making large money is not of major concern at this stage of life.

Some days start late and quit early, for some time when back was at its worst, on regular pain medication, had an employee come by house and drive truck to work and job sites. Still do if have to take pain medication and time sensitive job looming. Don't leave the house if back hurts bad enough to need medication unless have a driver. If starts hurting that bad during the day go home. This issue is becoming less frequent as rehab and regular radio frequency ablations are managing pain pretty well.

Was on the road this morning till now, currently at shop unloading and reloading truck to make second set of locations for the day. Did stop on way back, checked on wife and took care of a couple small things she needed. Soon as finish loading truck plan to shoot a little as put a new set of sights on one of my SIG's use with the Osprey suppressor. One of the 9mm 2022's came with threaded barrel and tall sights, the other added a threaded barrel and sight clearance even with the oblong Osprey was not enough for good sight picture. Need to verify them plus gun is fun to shoot with 147 grain subsonic.

What Is Short Sleeper Syndrome?
Short sleeper syndrome (SSS) is a sleep disorder characterized by sleeping for fewer than six hours each night. Most adults need seven or more hours of sleep each night to feel rested in the morning. Those with SSS, however, can function normally throughout the day despite little sleep. They don’t need to take naps or sleep more than normal to recover from lack of sleep.

Minimal sleep requirement occurs naturally for people with SSS. They don’t purposefully restrict or avoid sleep. In fact, their short sleep pattern is the same on most nights, including weekends and holidays. The pattern of short sleep usually begins in childhood or adolescence and continues into adulthood. Researchers believe it may develop due to a gene mutation. The mutation enables people to function well on fewer than six hours of sleep each night.

People with SSS sleep fewer than six hours each night and are still able to function well throughout the day. They can perform well at work or school despite their short sleep duration. Additionally, they don’t feel the need to take naps or sleep more on the weekends

Had short sleep cycles since middle school, not all people are wired the same. Have never said I was disabled. Tried taking sleep medication and it didn't increase time I slept, just sat around feeling dopey. Made it through school with A average so can at least function on par with other kids at a prep school. Did well in college till saw people graduating and getting jobs that paid less than dad paid skilled shop hands. When failed physical to go from MS2 to MS3 in ROTC program was end of school for me. Had same sleep issues then as now, in fact slept much less when in High School and college. Would read all night with no sleep a few nights per week.

My neurologist specializes in sleep issues and been to a sleep lab for over a dozen sleep studies. Developed central sleep apnea after pituitary cancer ate my pituitary causing thyroid, adrenals and other endocrinology issues. Also suffered a head injury during this time frame so doctors are unsure which or combination of both caused apnea. The time I do sleep now use a BiPAP Auto Server Ventilator to regulate breathing. It actually decreased average sleep cycle time even more as process more oxygen and have less interruptions in sleep cycle.

http://www.usa.philips.com/healthcar...utosv-advanced

Sleep studies show usually start REM sleep within 15 minutes of nodding off, stay in REM for one to two hours and then when come out wake up quickly. In my 1.5 to 3 hours of sleep average almost two hours of REM sleep per night over a months log.



Every minute sleeping am tethered to a pulse oximeter that is worn like a watch and data is logged with BiPAP ASV for sleep center. That is as much REM time as most people who sleep 7 to 9 hours per night. Doc said it works so leave it alone, medicating just for the sake of looking at the inside of eyelids is not worth side effects. I get full REM sleep, don't feel tired or drowsy, manage to get my work done, recreate as much as desire and manage to make my own way through life without punching a clock or answering to a supervisor or Human Resources Department. Would prefer that had not been rear ended breaking back and neck, would prefer not having had the pituitary issue whack my endocrinology functions but have made it work and the sleep thing is a non issue according to my neurologist.

What a segway this thread has taken just because people questioned a two post user's somewhat odd request. Now do we throw the others with similar questions to O.P. on the griddle or just grinding the ax on me? I really don't care as have a fresh pair of Depends on at the moment.

[djfin]

My god you are full of crap . Please read your own post.

"A new member that doesn't even introduce himself then make a few posts to get a little feel for the group, has no Marketplace transaction record who lives in Kali"fornication" whose first post is asking for FAL work done in South Kali and second to use someone's equipment in Kali to finish 80% lowers seems like a troll at best and narc at worst."

Did you forget due to lack of sleep?? That sure looks to be a lot more than a little sarcastic and in fact very rude. You just called the man, someone you have no idea about a troll at best and a narc at worst and you think that its not rude. And now you have "Short Sleeper Syndrome" A condition that affects an extremely small number of people and is very rare according to a Google search . It is amazing the number of medical conditions that you have and your are still able to work 16 hour days and still take care of your disabled wife. If Hollywood made a soap opera based on your posts no one would believe it as it is to much BS even for Hollywood. Based on your posts you have built more firearms than most manufactures, machine your own firearm parts and own a very large arsenal of firearms and NFA items. Please cut back to just half of your current level of BS

[Pluribus]

If any y'all gonna quote huey please, please edit the bubble. It's bad enough with the muddy original post so please spare a second WoT cause, my scrolling finger is getting a terrible cramp.

MODS: Could we get a "skip BS post" button? Take us right to the next post without getting severe eye strain or, a bad case of SFS (scroll finger syndrome).

TIA

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by Pluribus

If any y'all gonna quote huey please, please edit the bubble.
(trim)
MODS: Could we get a "skip BS post" button?(trim)
TIA

If notice when I quoted above trimmed the person's post to just what intended to respond. Have been mentioning for some time if people have issues with my long posts why don't they use the common courtesy to trim them? If unable to do so for reason of being internet challenged why hit the quote button at all? Really like seeing one post quoted in entirety by two or three people. Notice above, delete a chunk, add (trim) delete smilies and blank lines. Makes what many complain of a much more tolerable issue.

Now to my last question. Are others who asked same questions going to be called out or is this personal? I don't care but at least say if your really bothered or just hating on me.

[Pluribus]

Just shinin' on you huey, just a shinin' you.........

I think you're OK

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by Pluribus

Just shinin' on you huey, just a shinin' you.........

I think you're OK
(trim)

Not worried bout you, learned a while back you like to pull the chain just to be doing or sticking your finger on the wall to see if the wet paint sign should still be up.

[djfin]

Now to my last question. Are others who asked same questions going to be called out or is this personal? I don't care but at least say if your really bothered or just hating on me.[/QUOTE]

As I have "called out" other posters in this thread it is not personal I just call bullshit when I see it. Just tired of the long winded BS posts that are full of inaccurate or complete bullshit information. You make claims / statements that are total BS and then go to great lengths to defend your BS. Your long list of "health issues" are always brought up in your defense of you BS posts as they somehow have anything to due with the subject. Your most likely a good guy but the bullshit is very deep in most of your posts.

[Pluribus]

Originally Posted by hueyville

It's a firearms discussion group,... TRIM.... years ago.

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by djfin

As I have "called out" other posters in this thread it is not personal I just call bullshit when I see it. Just tired of the long winded BS posts that are full of inaccurate or complete bullshit information. You make claims / statements that are total BS and then go to great lengths to defend your BS. Your long list of "health issues" are always brought up in your defense of you BS posts as they somehow have anything to due with the subject. Your most likely a good guy but the bullshit is very deep in most of your posts.

Made no mention about my health until post number 28 of what was a reasonably entertaining exchange of ideas, law and individual interpretation of current laws, rules and regulations. When you asked this in post #24.

Originally Posted by djfin

As the OP has been a member here longer than you your "new guy" comment is very funny. As for the number posts made by the OP BIG DEAL. Some people have more important things to do than sit around on the computer.
(major trim)

To which I simply replied with a short statement that I don't sleep much in post #28.

Originally Posted by hueyville

Sleep an average of 1.5 to 3 hours per nigh, all I need. During day have a lot of time waiting on clients, inspectors, etc while out in the field. Sitting on hold with network reliability center waiting to log into or out of a site can take time. Too easy to pick up tablet rather than stare blindly into space.

Then in post #29 Jaxxas replied with this.

Originally Posted by Jaxxas

I read the 'law', I'm confident in my interpretation. And I know right from wrong. I'm not going to live my life paying $10 grand a pop to a lawyer trying to figure out if it's safe for me to fart every time a new law comes out. Life is too short to live in fear.
If nothing else this may help explain your disjointed posts!

Some folks may be confident in self interpretation of law. Just had an issue crop up in which I sought opinions from three lawyers that specialize in Georgia firearms law as was trying to protect two friends who were told they could carry beyond the "Firearms Free Campus" signs with no potential legal action. Have access to lawyers, emails get aa response so have tendency to ask where the lines blur to keep out of trouble. In post #31 gave examples of where simply operating a shovel, fall from step ladder and similar violations of regulations, not laws often end in large fines.

After a few posts where responses were quoted in entirety without trimming 2barearms asked this which continued to drag up medical questions. In past, like others, have been open with issues been going through and people have latched on continuing to drag up as some means of leverage in debates that my health is not relevant but answer questions when asked. Asked in post 32.

Originally Posted by 2barearms

I thought you were disabled? Bad back and all sorts of other stuff and you still do jobsite labor?

Then in post 34 your incredible knowledge of sleep medicine and quoting something from medical experts you threw this in.

Originally Posted by djfin

(trim)
As stated above your 1.5 to 3 hours of sleep per day claim explains a lot. Your posts are confusing at best and pure crap at worst. Are you on disability or are you doing service work?? You have claimed both but that would not be legal would it. Please explain. FYI the medical experts in this field state that adults require a minimum of 5 to 9 hours per night to function normally and 7 to 9 hours is recommended.

I replied in post 35 sleep habits go back to middle school, have seen multiple doctors, currently under the care of a neurologist that specializes in sleep medicine who says not to worry about my Short Sleeper Syndrome as its not unheard of. His opinion was formed with many visits to sleep lab, consultation with other experts and testing done by other sleep specialists, psychological testing to confirm cognitive thought process, ability to solve problems and function safely along with consulting neurosurgeon on my CVT, oncologist on my pituitary cancer episodes along with spine/brain surgeon who monitors my broken neck and fixed skull when fell and cracked my skull open. Also have never claimed to be disabled, always discussed running three licensed businesses. So until others, including you from about post 30 on started using my health issues to support their arguments on firearms legislation and regulation I never mentioned it. Reminds me of current left wing news media screaming Russians, Russians, Russians to try and derail Trumps attempts to do what he promised be for the election.

Along with others, quoted and linked some current regulations. Also mentioned till all the last minute executive orders, regulations passed by DDTC/ITAR and BATFE opinions are disclosed, rolled out in court and ruled on by higher courts am personally going to refrain from machining and buy finished parts plus be careful who I loan firearms specific tools. Admitted to loaning tools at this moment to people I know well known, actually to a licensed FFL. So now back on topic, O.P. Said in post

Originally Posted by Captain Phil

Asking for help is a "no-no"?? Odd. I have helped a few people that asked for help. Used my tools at the time to help them build an AK. Passing on knowledge and helping others. Seems the right thing to do as it is how I learned.
(trim)

Administration has been pursuing a large-scale overhaul of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), which implement the federal Arms Export Control Act (AECA)...

Also regulated under ITAR are so-called "technical data" about defense articles. These include, among other things, "detailed design, development, production or manufacturing information" about firearms or ammunition. Specific examples of technical data are blueprints, drawings, photographs, plans, instructions or documentation...

Some State Department officials now insist that anything published online in a generally-accessible location has essentially been "exported," as it would be accessible to foreign nationals both in the U.S. and overseas.

With the new proposal published on June 3, the State Department claims to be "clarifying" the rules concerning "technical data" posted online or otherwise "released" into the "public domain." To the contrary, however, the proposal would institute a massive new prior restraint on free speech. This is because all such releases would require the "authorization" of the government before they occurred. The cumbersome and time-consuming process of obtaining such authorizations, moreover, would make online communication about certain technical aspects of firearms and ammunition essentially impossible.

Penalties for violations are severe and for each violation could include up to 20 years in prison and a fine of up to $1 million. Civil penalties can also be assessed. Each unauthorized "export," including to subsequent countries or foreign nationals, is also treated as a separate violation.

Some alarming language*from the proposed regs:

The requirements of paragraph (b) are not new. Rather, they are a more explicit statement of the ITAR’s requirement that one must seek and receive a license or other authorization from the Department or other cognizant U.S. government authority to release ITAR controlled ‘‘technical data,’’ as defined in § 120.10. A release of ‘‘technical data’’ may occur by disseminating ‘‘technical data’’ at a public conference or trade show, publishing ‘‘technical data’’ in a book or journal article, or posting ‘‘technical data’’ to the Internet. This proposed provision will enhance compliance with the ITAR by clarifying that ‘‘technical data’’ may not be made available to the public without authorization. Persons who intend to discuss ‘‘technical data’’ at a conference or trade show, or to publish it, must ensure that they obtain the appropriate authorization.

Most of us may be guilty of this Obama sponsored policy whenever post anything to this discussion group beyond trash talking others. ITAR currently states we should post any technical information on firearms that could be viewed by someone in a foreign country. Like loaning and borrowing tools, I don't see it standing in higher courts so personally choose to be careful who I engage in such activities with.

I see the reason for this thread as to expose the inordinate number of regulations passed, people arrested, fined or put under gag orders in recent years so people that don't keep up with such at least know that we are currently living in a society where even discussing how a firearm functions online could land a person in a bind. These subjects need to be discussed, our legislators contacted and asked to clean this mess up. All this said am about to drive to a local FFL to use three of my tools have loaned to them (they use daily, I only need on occasion) along with borrow two of theirs to complete an upper with a supressor mount. To make it more "kosher" will be an employee for the few minutes am behind the gun counter and if a couple of jobs are backed up while there will knock them out to be of some help. So while I do point such information out, do use own judgement at times to wander the lines knowing regulations are muddy. My health nor sleep cycles have anything to do with more regulations being approved in recent years than able to count. Can o worms spilled on mommas floor again...

[djfin]

You are again proving my point.

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by djfin

You are again proving my point.

Happy to oblige you.