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Old March 10, 2017, 17:40   #1
Bogie
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CIP Spec Reloading Dies and Brass

Is there such a thing? I have a CZ527M bolt rifle in 7.62x39. According to CZ, it's chambered for CIP spec steel case ammo. I never have any trouble with Tula, Golden Tiger, etc. but it seems a shame to shoot cheap Russian steel cased ammo out of such a nice rifle (wear on the rifle, less accuracy). So, I have been trying to reload for it using Redding dies and a variety of brass (R&P, Win, S&B, PPU). However, I keep getting light strikes (about 1 in 6) since the Redding dies and brass are SAAMI spec and the Russian ammo is CIP spec which is visibly larger than the SAAMI spec rounds. I would be willing to invest in a set of CIP spec dies and brass, but haven't been able to find any after a lot of searching the web. Anyone know of any? If so, can you point me to where I can find them?

Last edited by Bogie; March 11, 2017 at 11:28. Reason: typo
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Old March 10, 2017, 20:47   #2
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Not familiar with CIP specs, but have you tried backing off the Sizing Die on your fired brass cases so that you get minimal body sizing and they are not pushing the shoulder back? That should help with the reloaded round fitting the chamber better.

I would think that brass cased ammo would expand to fit the chamber, but it looks like that may not be the case (npi) with this cartridge.
Got that info here;
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=73023.0
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation...62-x-39-en.pdf

RCBS or Huntington Die Specialties may be able to customize a set of dies for you if needed.
http://huntingtons.com/
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Old March 11, 2017, 07:33   #3
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Thanks for taking the time to provide the links. Not sure I agree with the fellow who claims that Russian surplus is .312. That's 303 British diameter. From what I know the Russian stuff is .311. US made (Hornady for example) comes in .310. I have to search to find .311 bullets.

I've tried backing off the dies. It works, but then I get 1 in 6 rounds that I can't close the bolt on. Of course, my SKS eats anything, so whatever light strikes I have get shot out of it.

This happens mostly with the Win and Rem brass, but rarely with the PPU and S&B. I have a lot of the Win brass, though, and hate to throw it all away. It may come to that, but I read that there are two other possible solutions... Get a heavier striker spring from CZ and/or use more sensitive primers (Federal 210's were recommended.) I'm leery that I make set one off when priming, though. They're that sensitive according to what I've read. I'm going to the gun show this morning to see if they have any of the Fed 210 primers and give that a try.
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Old March 11, 2017, 09:05   #4
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This pressure measurement discussion (CIP vs SAAMI) usually evolves into a shouting match and butthurt.

For reloading, use a loading manual and a chronograph to verify your results. Stay within the min/max in the manual.

Standard dies and tools will produce standard ammo without any drama.
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Old March 11, 2017, 10:46   #5
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Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
This pressure measurement discussion (CIP vs SAAMI) usually evolves into a shouting match and butthurt.

For reloading, use a loading manual and a chronograph to verify your results. Stay within the min/max in the manual.

Standard dies and tools will produce standard ammo without any drama.
But then you find out either the reloading manual or the reference they used (looking at you, SAAMI) makes rather arrogant assumptions. Like claiming 7.5x54 is only rated to 30Kpsi while the people who created the round say 50Kpsi is where it should be. The same goes for the Mauser cartridges, 9x18 Makarov, 7.62x25, and so on. There might be a trend here but I sure can't find it...
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Old March 11, 2017, 12:41   #6
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Good luck with that one. CIP doesn't provide tolerances on cartridges like SAAMI does. While you can buy dies for calibers listed on CIP tables that are not SAAMI adopted, they will have been made to tolerances arbitrarily selected by the die maker.
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Old March 11, 2017, 12:51   #7
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That's why you need the $100 chronograph.

Pick a powder that is properly-suited to your cartridge.
Use a bullet that is properly-suited to your cartridge.
Work up a load that gives velocity within the range you expect for such bullet.

Invariably, folks posting CIP vs SAAMI pressure-issue questions on the interwebz fall in one of these categories:
  • they don't even reload - but they want to talk about it anyway
  • they want to use some oddball bullet
  • they want to use a powder that is not even close to typical powder for the cartridge

I've encountered plenty of flat-out ridiculous load-data info on "manufacturer's website" sources.

For common catridges, load-data is not a sacred mystery.
Pick a load that is well-established. Reduce it a bit, and try it in your gun. If it doesn't act weird, raise the charge-weight to the well-established level, and then spend the rest of your efforts at becoming a better marksman.
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Old March 11, 2017, 13:26   #8
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Unless you are physically measuring chamber pressures using proper lab equipment, any discussion of pressure is useless. Velocity and "signs of overpressure" are your only metrics.
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Old March 12, 2017, 08:31   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raubvogel View Post
But then you find out either the reloading manual or the reference they used (looking at you, SAAMI) makes rather arrogant assumptions. Like claiming 7.5x54 is only rated to 30Kpsi while the people who created the round say 50Kpsi is where it should be. The same goes for the Mauser cartridges, 9x18 Makarov, 7.62x25, and so on. There might be a trend here but I sure can't find it...
SAAMI is US spec, Europeans don't adhere to it and 30Kpsi in Europe is not the same as 30Kpsi in the US. It doesn't make sense to me, but I read it on the internet so it's got to be true.

It also doesn't make sense to me that "Bogie" is using .311 bullets because CZ supposedly uses a .308" bore with this cartridge. I don't shoot or load the 7.62 X 39 and have little to zero knowledge about it to be sure.
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Old March 12, 2017, 09:10   #10
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From the CZ web site: "Built to CIP specifications, our 7.6239 chambers are ideal for shooting steel-cased surplus ammo. Designed to shoot .311 bullets, some American brass ammo may not perform as well as the imported steel-cased variety because of SAAMI brass dimensions and varying bullet diameters."

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-carbine-223-rem/
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Old March 12, 2017, 10:00   #11
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Originally Posted by Bogie View Post
From the CZ web site: "Built to CIP specifications, our 7.6239 chambers are ideal for shooting steel-cased surplus ammo. Designed to shoot .311 bullets, some American brass ammo may not perform as well as the imported steel-cased variety because of SAAMI brass dimensions and varying bullet diameters."

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-carbine-223-rem/

Marketing people are idiots.
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Old March 12, 2017, 10:12   #12
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Huh? Mainer tells me I'm full of it and puts " " around my name... so I post the CZ website blurb that says it uses .311 bullets.... and you come back with "marketing people and idiots"... I'm not following you.
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Old March 12, 2017, 10:29   #13
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Huh? Mainer tells me I'm full of it and puts " " around my name... so I post the CZ website blurb that says it uses .311 bullets.... and you come back with "marketing people and idiots"... I'm not following you.

I'm referring to CZ claims that SAAMI spec brass cartridges are inferior to "CIP" steel case cartridges. To me it seems that whoever wrote that for CZ is not a technical person and has no clue what they are talking about.
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Old March 12, 2017, 10:33   #14
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If there is any kernel of useful information in that blather, I guess they are saying don't use .308 bullets in your handloads.
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Old March 12, 2017, 11:11   #15
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If there is any kernel of useful information in that blather, I guess they are saying don't use .308 bullets in your handloads.
And even then, you should slug the bore. As an extreme example, my Mosins (the ones with G-VG barrels) slug out between .309 (Finn M39) and .313 (1944 M44).
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Old March 12, 2017, 11:33   #16
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And even then, you should slug the bore. As an extreme example, my Mosins (the ones with G-VG barrels) slug out between .309 (Finn M39) and .313 (1944 M44).
I have a bunch of old WWII era rifles (a number of 7.62mm rifles) that I should probably slug, since I reload for most and the bullets come in .310-.312. I've heard of a couple of ways to do, but it seems like a tricky procedure, and I haven't felt comfortable attempting it. What's the best way to do it so that I don't screw it up and end up plugging up the barrel?
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Old March 12, 2017, 11:45   #17
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I'm referring to CZ claims that SAAMI spec brass cartridges are inferior to "CIP" steel case cartridges. To me it seems that whoever wrote that for CZ is not a technical person and has no clue what they are talking about.
Ohhhhh..... you're probably right.... However, I tend to believe the claim that it is chambered to shoot .311 bullets.. or should I take that with a grain of salt, as well?
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Old March 12, 2017, 15:58   #18
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Huh? Mainer tells me I'm full of it and puts " " around my name... so I post the CZ website blurb that says it uses .311 bullets.... and you come back with "marketing people and idiots"... I'm not following you.
Had not meant to beat on you with the Cudgel.
Thought my statement disavowing any knowledge of what I was taking about regarding this cartridge would cover it.

Was just puzzled by anyone prompted to use .311 bullets in a .308 bore. It can be done, but in general it's not a good idea except in special circumstances such as severe erosion of the barrels throat or low pressure cast bullets.

Seems that the 7.62x39 did not survive the trip across the Atlantic well in having its specifications equal on both sides of the pond.

Anyway, I can see a problem with loading .308 bullets in this cartridge as the Sizing Die would likely not size the neck small enough to provide the proper tension to hold the bullet.

Let us know what you find with this.

You've probably seen this info, but...
https://www.loaddata.com/articles/PD...%2047%20LR.pdf
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Old March 12, 2017, 16:36   #19
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Ohhhhh..... you're probably right.... However, I tend to believe the claim that it is chambered to shoot .311 bullets.. or should I take that with a grain of salt, as well?
No, I would believe the .311 bore size based on their suggestion to use surplus steel case.
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Old March 12, 2017, 16:51   #20
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I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm and a Zastava M85 Bolt gun in 7.62x39mm. To the best of my knowledge, they both have .311 barrels (just like the 7.62x39mm cartridge was designed to shoot).

It's Ruger with their .308 barrels for the cartridge that's the Bozo...

Forrest
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Old March 12, 2017, 17:24   #21
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I have a bunch of old WWII era rifles (a number of 7.62mm rifles) that I should probably slug, since I reload for most and the bullets come in .310-.312. I've heard of a couple of ways to do, but it seems like a tricky procedure, and I haven't felt comfortable attempting it. What's the best way to do it so that I don't screw it up and end up plugging up the barrel?
It's simple to slug the whole bore:

A wooden ramrod and #1 or #0 buckshot should work for .30 cal.

Start the shot with a brass hammer, or centerpunch it and start it from the muzzle end. Use sections of the wooden ramrod and a light hammer to drive the shot from muzzle to breach. Mike the shot. Done.

The dead soft buckshot will deform and won't stick. If, for some reason it does the barrel can be heated and liquid lead poured out - but I've never had to do that.

It really doesn't get any simpler.

HTH
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Old March 13, 2017, 09:16   #22
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I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm and a Zastava M85 Bolt gun in 7.62x39mm. To the best of my knowledge, they both have .311 barrels (just like the 7.62x39mm cartridge was designed to shoot).

It's Ruger with their .308 barrels for the cartridge that's the Bozo...

Forrest
I had read the CZ had a .308 bore. It was on the internet so got to be true, right? CZ says it's a .311 bore, I'd go with that.
Forrest, any ignition problems with your CZ? Have been reading about weak Firing Pin Springs in earlier 7.62x39 rifles and that CZ will send a stronger spring if you call them. Big difference in various ammo brands also.
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Old March 13, 2017, 09:26   #23
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FWIW, I shot several hundred .311 bullets through one of my FAL's.

I once had the fool notion that I would handload for my nephew's Mini-30.

Ended up with a few boxes of .311's on the shelf.
Moving time came 'round, and this was before Gunbroker days, so I conjured up a load with the .311 using brass from my then-gargantuan pile of M852 range pickup brass.

Took it to the NRA indoor range, and blasted it all into the backstop over the course of about 20 minutes.

I was like,... and everybody else on the range was like...

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Old March 13, 2017, 11:59   #24
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I had read the CZ had a .308 bore. It was on the internet so got to be true, right? CZ says it's a .311 bore, I'd go with that.
Forrest, any ignition problems with your CZ? Have been reading about weak Firing Pin Springs in earlier 7.62x39 rifles and that CZ will send a stronger spring if you call them. Big difference in various ammo brands also.
I've never slugged the bores of the CZ or ZV, so I'm just going by what they say too.

The only ammo that I have shot though the CZ is the brass cased Winchester white box 123gr FMJ, and I have noticed no problems with that ammo. However, I don't remember looking at the primer strikes carefully (if I had experienced ignition problems, I would have, of course) and, when I just checked the cases, I found that I had already decapped the cases (so no help there either).

My reloading experience with 7.62x39mm is quite limited. I use the Lee FL die set (which includes a FCD) and the .310/.311 expanding 'button' (the set comes with decapping rods for .308 and .310/.311 (and I don't remember whether it's claimed to be .310 or .311 at the moment and am too lazy to go look, but if it's important for someone, I can)). I have used Winchester cases and the only bullet that I have loaded is the Remington 125 SP (to work up a 'hunting' load). It's not worth it to load FMJ 'plinking' ammo since the components are more expensive than the loaded ammo.

I shot the reloads in an SKS, so no CZ help there...

And Gary's point about .311 bullets in a .308 bore is a good one. You just adjust your load for the bullet. And, with the bullet diameter difference mentioned, you probably wouldn't even have to do much adjusting...

For what it's all worth...

Forrest

PS I think that the Remington bullet is listed as a .310, but it might be .311 ...
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Old March 14, 2017, 15:50   #25
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It's simple to slug the whole bore:

A wooden ramrod and #1 or #0 buckshot should work for .30 cal.

Start the shot with a brass hammer, or centerpunch it and start it from the muzzle end. Use sections of the wooden ramrod and a light hammer to drive the shot from muzzle to breach. Mike the shot. Done.

The dead soft buckshot will deform and won't stick. If, for some reason it does the barrel can be heated and liquid lead poured out - but I've never had to do that.

It really doesn't get any simpler.

HTH
This is one of the methods I've read about. I was just a bit paranoid that the wooden ramrod would splinter/break and I'd be stuck with a buckshot in the bore. Good to hear the buckshot won't stick. I'll give it a try. Tks.
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Old March 14, 2017, 16:07   #26
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The only ammo that I have shot though the CZ is the brass cased Winchester white box 123gr FMJ, and I have noticed no problems with that ammo. I have used Winchester cases and the only bullet that I have loaded is the Remington 125 SP (to work up a 'hunting' load).
PS I think that the Remington bullet is listed as a .310, but it might be .311 ...
I haven't had any light strikes with NEW US ammo such as Winchester. It's just the reloads that yield light strikes. Win brass is particularly problematic as previously mentioned. I picked up some Fed 210 primers and will try them as suggested in the CZ forum. They're supposed to be much more sensitive (softer) than the standard CCI primers I was using. I'll try some next weekend if I can manage to reload some this week. I always get a pronounced indent on the light strikes and wonder why the round didn't go off, so the more sensitive primers may solve the problem without having to change the striker spring.
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Old March 20, 2017, 11:57   #27
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Tried the Fed 210 primers yesterday. 20 rounds; 0 light strikes. They all went bang! Woohoo.... After all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this, that was a pretty easy fix.
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