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Old February 13, 2017, 19:06   #351
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I have a confession to make....

..., so I am training with an AR. ...

Don't sweat it, there will be other women competitors.
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Old February 13, 2017, 19:38   #352
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... like me.


I'm thinking of running an AR for this deal. I always said, "FAL for staying put, AR for going on walk-about."

I think this is that. Haven't fully decided yet.
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Old February 13, 2017, 19:53   #353
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I'm going to have to come up with some way to give extra points for 30 cal next year. It seems "because it's awesome" is no longer enough.
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:01   #354
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Tuhlmann knows I'm kidding, right?


Kotengu, only one required hit on the steel for .308 ...

Brunop, I have a sinking suspicion you are engaging in extremely dry and subtle sarcasm. But, I can't tell.
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:17   #355
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I think the 'one hit for .30 caliber' makes a lot of sense.

I don't know if I'm going for sarcasm or not. I may run with an FAL, but I may not.

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Old February 13, 2017, 20:23   #356
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Yes RJ, I got a good belly laugh out of your dig. I expect the abuse, and welcome it!

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Old February 13, 2017, 20:43   #357
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I'm thinking some heavy brick of steel for a target at distance, and you've got to knock it off its post. With a .308 it'll get knocked off in a hit or two, but with a .223 it'll take a whole bunch of hits to knock it off. Or maybe some heavy cover you have to shoot through to hit the target.

But then some poor RO has to run downrange after every shooter and pick up that heavy brick of steel, or replace that shot up cover. So my plan is not very good for a game like this.

I don't want to make a rule that says .308 is better - I want people to see for themselves WHY .308 is better!
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:48   #358
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Yes RJ, I got a good belly laugh out of your dig. I expect the abuse, and welcome it!

I think you and I have different definitions of abuse. That was a friendly jibe.

One does not simply pass up an opening like that.
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:50   #359
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How about just making a caliber class?

ETA: Nevermind. After that thinking a bit, I get what you mean.
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:52   #360
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My fat ass will be humping a FAL.... It seems appropriate.
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:53   #361
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I'm thinking some heavy brick of steel for a target at distance, and you've got to knock it off its post. With a .308 it'll get knocked off in a hit or two, but with a .223 it'll take a whole bunch of hits to knock it off. Or maybe some heavy cover you have to shoot through to hit the target.

But then some poor RO has to run downrange after every shooter and pick up that heavy brick of steel, or replace that shot up cover. So my plan is not very good for a game like this.

I don't want to make a rule that says .308 is better - I want people to see for themselves WHY .308 is better!
Can you calibrate Larue's to different impact forces? Might want to look that up. The Larue is self-resetting so doesn't require an RO to walk down range.

There are plenty of matches where MD's will set pepper poppers heavy so you need a #6 high brass to knock it over with one hit. Or small steel plates where you need heavy shot with a tight choke. This seems like a similar notion.
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Old February 13, 2017, 20:59   #362
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Can you calibrate Larue's to different impact forces? Might want to look that up. The Larue is self-resetting so doesn't require an RO to walk down range.

There are plenty of matches where MD's will set pepper poppers heavy so you need a #6 high brass to knock it over with one hit. Or small steel plates where you need heavy shot with a tight choke. This seems like a similar notion.
Maybe - but then the mousegunners could NEVER knock it over. I don't really want that either. I'm willing to admit that a .223 is probably good enough in most cases. But if I ever really need a rifle I don't want to settle for "good enough".
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Old February 13, 2017, 21:00   #363
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How about just making a caliber class?
This is probably the most realistic answer. But not very fun.
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Old February 13, 2017, 21:19   #364
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Maybe - but then the mousegunners could NEVER knock it over. I don't really want that either. I'm willing to admit that a .223 is probably good enough in most cases. But if I ever really need a rifle I don't want to settle for "good enough".
The mousegunners would just need to get 2 or 3 timed hits to get it moving. You'd want it closer to 100 than 200 yards IMO if that was your goal.

I dunno, maybe it's not possible.

How about putting some taught, self sealing rubber, like conveyor belt material in front of the targets? Think that could scrub off enough speed from the 5.56 to act as cover?
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Old February 13, 2017, 21:20   #365
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This is probably the most realistic answer. But not very fun.
We fought so long to end segregation, and now some cry for it's return.
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Old February 13, 2017, 21:31   #366
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My feeling is that there is no need for anything special. Like in Okie, let the mouse gunners do their thing and then at some point, when they are eying my FAL, I will tell me to pick it up. The look on their faces, as they feel their mangina pucker up, is enough for me.
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Old February 13, 2017, 21:34   #367
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I like the idea of paying a possible price in target response for choosing lighter-weight hardware. That's a real world choice with corresponding consequences.
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Old February 13, 2017, 21:42   #368
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Old February 14, 2017, 01:09   #369
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My feeling is that there is no need for anything special. Like in Okie, let the mouse gunners do their thing and then at some point, when they are eying my FAL, I will tell me to pick it up. The look on their faces, as they feel their mangina pucker up, is enough for me.
THIS!

OH SO MUCH THIS.

"Yeah, it's not light...no seriously...pull the trigger...closer to 12...(giant grin) yeah I know."

I will never not run this rifle (1)...it brought me here.

(1) - as primary rifle (the one that counts)

OK, so I went looking for the thread where I posted this and LOLd when it was this thread so flashback time!

"God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have to shoot well, and walk little.
O, do not wish one more!
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not toil in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to suffer with us.
He that outlives this match, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this match is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Rockcastle.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his fellows,
And say "I ran the insanity."
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say "These wounds I had at Kotengu's match"
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words—
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And running this match with the FAL shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so accurate,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in America now a'feared
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That shot FALs with us at Rockcastle."
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Old February 14, 2017, 01:44   #370
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But if I ever really need a rifle I don't want to settle for "good enough".
If I ever need a rifle, that's all I want it to be.

Don't want to carry .338 Lapua for hunting white tail.

Don't want to carry .44Mag for personal defense.


I love the FAL. Love. I love the recoil, I love the ergonomics, I love the walnut and steel. I love the Austrian box mags with the little witness holes the back. I love the .308 round itself.

I love shooting the FAL in various matches, by which I mean Oregon, Washington, and RBGC. All of which feature "problems" that seem to mirror how I imagine myself using the FAL in (as an old acquaintance put it... "God willing" ) a zombie apocalypse: running to different positions of cover or concealment and solving different shooting problems. Stimpy's match is the best of these in my opinion. Oregon and Washington have more events, but they are mostly static or 'single position' problems - which also 'matches' how I believe I would use an FAL for family or farm defense: eliminate as many threats as possible in as short a time as possible from the prone or other position to take advantage of cover or whatever.

But if I'm going to go run a bit to take the fight to some unknown number of assailants - whether by myself or with a friend or two, I'm going with an AR: considerations being weight, speed, and capacity.

I've done lots of drills on a timer, and whether it's because:

a) I'm weak
b) I'm tall and long-waisted
c) I'm a wuss
d) all of the above

I can't 'get off the 'X' ' as fast, follow up shots as fast, or do manipulations as fast with an FAL as I can with an AR.

I want to do one of two things: a) shoot the FAL with irons at long distances (< 600 yards...), and /or b) shoot the FAL in some test where the weight and PFA* of the .308 round is recognized - like a single round in the A/C zone is = to two rounds of .223 which, if all of the stories I hear from people who have shot people with the .223 *may* be justified some of the time.

I can imagine the 3-silhouette drill (12 shots: 2 in 'A', 2 in 'B', 4 in 'C', 2 in 'B', and 2 in 'A') being much more "equivalent" if the FAL in .308 is six shots: 1, 1, 2, 1, 1 - rather than having to go with a mil-standard 'double tap' because of cartridge suckiness.

But I'll put up a video this week with a timer. I may or may not be wearing Billy Bob teef.


This isn't a bitch or a complaint or even a suggestion about Rockcastle. I'm just emptying my head.




*Pure Freaking Awesomeness
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Old February 14, 2017, 02:01   #371
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I'll also say this:

The Oregon guys like 4x401, and the Washington guys like 12v71 and others, have done a good job putting up tests that make a person consider *if* in fact the .308 is better than the lowly .223...

Rich makes his poppers 'regulated' to .308. If you hit 'em high and centered with a 77gr. .223 round, they *might* fall. If you hit 'em with a 55 gr. round anywhere but in the head, they will not. Know what he says? "Bring enough gun to do the job. And don't bitch to me about it." Love it.

Rob sets up the 8x13 plates at 200 in high wind (eastern Washington...). One year, my team shoot partner was shooting 77 gr. match ammo, but forgot to hold the right edge of the plate, and couldn't get a hit until he finally remembered (he picked up 3 of 12 targets). The next year, my partner (different partner) was shooting 55 gr. ammo, and didn't get ANY hits. Both guys are normally very good shots. .308 FTW in both cases. Love it.

Stimpy does it differently. He just says, "Bring an FAL, or don't come." Love it.


But all else being equal, I don't want to go in a cave with an FAL. Even for the "Did you see how bitchin' I am - because FAL, pal...". Long before any of my competition efforts, I was shooting the FAL in Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle and Urban Precision Rifle classes, in Appleseed classes, in Gabe Suarez's "Guerrilla Sniper" class, and pushing it as hard as I could.

The only reason I'll shoot it in an event like this is "brotherhood". And what I'd love to do is run the thing twice: FAL in the morning, and AR in the afternoon.
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Old February 14, 2017, 06:28   #372
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THIS!

That shot FALs with us at Rockcastle."


You have been very poetic lately, sir - you must have found a muse or something!

Brunop - that is all good stuff, and I look forward to the Billy Bob teef.
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Old February 14, 2017, 07:10   #373
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I'm going to have to come up with some way to give extra points for 30 cal next year. It seems "because it's awesome" is no longer enough.
This I like!
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Old February 14, 2017, 07:21   #374
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And what I'd love to do is run the thing twice: FAL in the morning, and AR in the afternoon.
You got any kin in far Eastern OK or Western Arkansas?

I love the idea of the "heavy brick of steel" that must be knocked off.
Matt, I may steal that idea, or modify it for Oklahoma. (if you don't mind)

Long distance can give the .308 an edge, especially in the wind. At the "old range" in Pecos, there were three plates at 400 or so yards. When the wind blew, so did ARs. The long run (about 7 miles then) kinda erased that long-distance advantage for the men's rifles, though.
Saw one year a bunch of weeds and brush was just about even with the targets. A .22 would graze the top of the weeds and go astray. .308s went right to the steel.
Perhaps a target indicator that lights up only if the steel has been moved a significant distance....
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Old February 14, 2017, 09:21   #375
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"When the wind blew, so did the ARs"

Steal any meager ideas I have, sir - lord knows I've stolen a BUNCH from you!
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Old February 14, 2017, 11:39   #376
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I know, on Moses steel, 223 doesn't always do the job. I hit one solidly, slightly low and left of center at 300 with a 60gr nosler ballistic tip. Everyone heard the "thwack" of steel being hit and you could see the hit on the freshly painted plate but it didn't even budge.

There's no questioning a hit with 7.62x51.
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Old February 14, 2017, 20:20   #377
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Haven't run since last Thursday. Flew home Saturday from San Juan spent all day Sunday relaxing and getting ready to get back on a plane. Spent all day traveling back to Memphis yesterday and got back on the treadmill tonight for this weeks warm up run. Gonna try to bust the 7min mile pace for 3 this week.



I think there was still rum in my system tonight. Thought maybe my fumes would give others in the gym a contact high! I am a giver you know
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Old February 14, 2017, 22:19   #378
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You're killing me with this 7-min mile crap!

I was going to try my first easy run tonight, but ended up hiking 7-8 miles up and down steep undeveloped (no trails on a lot of it) hardwood forest mountains today at work so I wimped out. The good news is my knee felt pretty good. The bad news is I was sucking air hard, and the only weight I was carrying was my jacket and boots.

Tomorrow I'm doing pull-ups, ropes, and rings intermixed with short runs if it kills me. Which it might, judging from my experiences with ropes and rings so far.
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Old February 14, 2017, 22:33   #379
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Yaknow what's funny? I thought this match would be cool to put on because it would inspire shooters to start running. And it did.

But something I didn't expect was that it has also inspired a few runners to start shooting. And they are excited and vocal about it. Awesome!
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Old February 15, 2017, 08:32   #380
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...

But something I didn't expect was that it has also inspired a few runners to start shooting. And they are excited and vocal about it. Awesome!
This is all well and good, but I hope they get some modicum of training and practice beforehand. Under duress, on a rigorous course of action shooting, is not the time to practice and learn gun safety.

But, this is great news!
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Old February 15, 2017, 08:43   #381
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This is all well and good, but I hope they get some modicum of training and practice beforehand. Under duress, on a rigorous course of action shooting, is not the time to practice and learn gun safety.

But, this is great news!
It is hard for n00bs to know what level of training they even need without match experience. I consider practicing by oneself the most risky activity in shooting.

Never shot a match I didn't learn something.
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Old February 15, 2017, 11:24   #382
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It is hard for n00bs to know what level of training they even need without match experience. I consider practicing by oneself the most risky activity in shooting.

Never shot a match I didn't learn something.
True, even if it's what not to do, but when we're talking running with rifles, and talking folks who, apparently (?) have never shot before, the potential for an ND or 180 violation is pretty high.

Lucky he has such awesome RO's to try and keep folks safe.
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Old February 15, 2017, 16:11   #383
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Lucky he has such awesome RO's to try and keep folks safe.
This.

Although it's more like "I run races every other weekend and am pretty good with a pisol, but I suck with a rifle. I'm going to go practice a lot". Or vice-versa. One guy even built a running and shooting course on his land just to train for this.

On the other end of the spectrum we have a former Marine who blew out his knee and is unable to run anymore, but he's going all out to win the Mule award. He carried 75lbs yesterday at a 16 min/mi pace, and is going for 85lbs next week. No, I don't understand how he's able to carry that much weight with his knee being an issue - I guess it's because he's a F$&KING MARINE!!!
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Old February 15, 2017, 16:22   #384
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This.


On the other end of the spectrum we have a former Marine who blew out his knee and is unable to run anymore, but he's going all out to win the Mule award. He carried 75lbs yesterday at a 16 min/mi pace, and is going for 85lbs next week. No, I don't understand how he's able to carry that much weight with his knee being an issue - I guess it's because he's a F$&KING MARINE!!!
This puts me out of the running for the Mule Award.
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Old February 15, 2017, 16:40   #385
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Haven't run since last Thursday. Flew home Saturday from San Juan spent all day Sunday relaxing and getting ready to get back on a plane. Spent all day traveling back to Memphis yesterday and got back on the treadmill tonight for this weeks warm up run. Gonna try to bust the 7min mile pace for 3 this week.



I think there was still rum in my system tonight. Thought maybe my fumes would give others in the gym a contact high! I am a giver you know
Dang. I'm just trying to get under 9 min/mile.


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Old February 15, 2017, 18:08   #386
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... I guess it's because he's a F$&KING MARINE!!!
Sounds like the guy is Nutzz.
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Old February 15, 2017, 19:28   #387
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Just FYI, from our title sponsor:

Get yourself a cool shirt at the 3G4V Run N Gun Presented By Rockcastle (5k Biathlon) on March 18th and support our Veterans and your sport at the same time! All inventory of shirts and hats will be on site for purchase. If you wear it during this match and tag us in a post, you will be put in a special drawing during the prize ceremony.

http://www.3gun4vets.com/3g4v-swag-store
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Old February 15, 2017, 20:05   #388
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Just FYI, from our title sponsor:

Get yourself a cool shirt at the 3G4V Run N Gun Presented By Rockcastle (5k Biathlon) on March 18th and support our Veterans and your sport at the same time! All inventory of shirts and hats will be on site for purchase. If you wear it during this match and tag us in a post, you will be put in a special drawing during the prize ceremony.

http://www.3gun4vets.com/3g4v-swag-store
Awwwww yeah!

Have to wear a hat as the shirt would be covered by gear. Hat needs velcro!
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Old February 15, 2017, 21:22   #389
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Alright - first running since Oklahoma. Here was the plan:

10 pull-ups
0.4 mile run
5 left-hand front pull-ups
1.2 mile run
5 right-hand front pull-ups
0.5 mile run
10 rope rows
0.7 mile run
5 horizontal rope climbs
0.3 mile run
3x 5 second ring top position holds
0.3 mile run
3x 3 ring dips
3x 5 ring let me ups

I felt a little weakness in the knee toward the end so I skipped the last 0.3 mile run. I can't do all the pull-ups and dips so I do as many positive as I can, then switch to negative (jump up and let down slowly).

I plan to mix it up some, but I really like the bodyweight/running combo. we'll see how it does over a longer period.
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Old February 16, 2017, 07:21   #390
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This.

Although it's more like "I run races every other weekend and am pretty good with a pisol, but I suck with a rifle. I'm going to go practice a lot". Or vice-versa. One guy even built a running and shooting course on his land just to train for this.

On the other end of the spectrum we have a former Marine who blew out his knee and is unable to run anymore, but he's going all out to win the Mule award. He carried 75lbs yesterday at a 16 min/mi pace, and is going for 85lbs next week. No, I don't understand how he's able to carry that much weight with his knee being an issue - I guess it's because he's a F$&KING MARINE!!!
What's the "mule" award?
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Old February 16, 2017, 09:46   #391
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What's the "mule" award?
A special trophy that goes to the competitor who carries the heaviest load (as a percent of their bodyweight) and FINISHES the course. Time and shooting score don't matter to the Mule - just a sheer determination not to quit.

I came up with this after seeing what some of the goofballs carried on your course just to see if they could. I wanted some way to recognize the craziest of them. ;-)

It's funny - I thought it would just be a little sidenote for a few people and not get any attention, but it's stirred up quite a bit of interest. We'll see how many go for it. It'll also be really interesting to see this guy plop down in prone with an 85lb pack on and then try to get back up again, or shoot through the sideways VTAC port without falling over, or climb over the obstacles...or...or...or...

I'm glad I have good RO's on the VTAC stage. Watch the Mules' muzzles closely when they tip over!

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Old February 16, 2017, 09:57   #392
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Hmmmm. So you weigh rifle, gear etc...then runner?
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Old February 16, 2017, 10:30   #393
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Hmmmm. So you weigh rifle, gear etc...then runner?
Yep - part of the check-in process (no gear weight) and just before they run (geared up weight).
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Old February 16, 2017, 12:31   #394
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"Mule Award"

Rowjimmy is getting excited!

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Old February 16, 2017, 18:22   #395
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Did three 1 mile sprints last night at 8.6mph mixed with pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, and burpees. Legs were tight and tired tonight so didn't run the 3miles straight as fast as I wanted. Still decent in my book for now.

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Old February 16, 2017, 18:39   #396
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Rowjimmy is getting excited!

Hey, are you trying to insult me? That guys isn't holding a FAL.
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Old February 17, 2017, 07:09   #397
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10.6 miles at Turkey Mountain. Need to be shooting.....
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Old February 17, 2017, 07:50   #398
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10.6 miles at Turkey Mountain. Need to be shooting.....
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Old February 17, 2017, 10:19   #399
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10.6 miles at Turkey Mountain. Need to be shooting.....
THANK YOU for bringing this thread back on track! Nuttz and google make for a dangerous pair...
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Old February 17, 2017, 21:21   #400
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...! Nuttz and google make for a dangerous pair...
You mean this?




Or this:



Or are you saying he's squirrely?

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